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It's not Apple's job to parent your kids, and "smart phone addiction" is an over-hyped fad scare. If someone is super concerned about their teen watching minecr

It's not Apple's job to parent your kids, and "smart phone addiction" is an over-hyped fad scare. If someone is super concerned about their teen watching minecraft videos at 2am on vacation, they should take their kid's phone away at night. But also, they're on vacation, and it's not like they're watching porn, so is it even that bad? This is a bit of an inflammatory comparison, but I stayed up reading with a flashlight a lot as a kid. Was that terrible for me? Should my flashlight have had a setting to limit the times I can use it? Would anyone say I had an unhealthy book addiction, and that publishers should do something about it?

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
The minute we can find a book that replicates a Skinner box, you may be onto something. I agree that yes, just being on your phone isn't a terrible thing, but it's not really comparable to books just because of its ability to provide more effective, immediate, and addictive feedback.
- brlewis 7y ago
  I've done reading where my varying enjoyment of different parts was essentially intermittent rewards.
- p1necone 7y ago
  How exactly do minecraft videos on youtube replicate a skinner box?
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    That's not, but any of the mobile games will be doing their best to replicate the same behaviours, and social media gives fleeting dopamine hits.
  - matwood 7y ago
    They give some level of pleasure that the person wants to recreate. Watch another one new to get another hit of pleasure. Repeat.
jressey 7y ago
Smart phone addiction is absolutely real. My neck is sore everyday that I don't consciously make an effort to use my phone less. I hit my 1 hour limit on my reddit app by 9 or 10 every morning. I do agree that it is absolutely not Apple's responsibility to do anything about this. People want to outsource their responsibility as parents and it's pathetic.
- joezydeco 7y ago
  But Apple has taken some responsibility for this by knocking out third party MDM apps that served this purpose (like OurPact) and then replacing it with a half-finished piece of work that suffers from multiple usability problems. As a parent, I'm taking responsibility for my kids' time and development by making sure the Skinner box is turned off until homework and chores are completed. I don't feel that's outsourcing my work as a parent - it's just one more tool in my toolbox among many. You may disagree and you're raising your own kids differently, and that's just fine.
- javagram 7y ago
  Parents can’t hover over their kids 24/7. Moreover, I’d question whether having your time micromanaged in such a way by a parent wouldn’t cause resentment and arguments. A technological solution seems perfectly reasonable in that context - and Apple has blocked some third party apps from the store so putting more of an onus on them to fill in the missing capabilities seems reasonable. The parents who don’t want to parent are probably perfectly happy handing youtube to their kids and not monitoring or managing the usage at all.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Parents need functional tools. Apple providing broken tools is counter-productive to empowering parents to take responsibility.
  - jressey 7y ago
    Or you know, physically keep the phone from the children.
mindgam3 7y ago
You glossed over the most legit complaint raised in the article: > They search for bugs that make it easy to keep using their phones, unbeknown to parents, like changing the time to trick the system, or using iMessage to watch YouTube videos. “These are not rocket science, backdoor, dark web sort of hacks,” says Chris McKenna, founder of the Internet safety group Protect Young Eyes. “It blows me away that Apple hasn’t thought through the fact that a persistent middle school boy or girl can bang around and find them.” And yeah, it’s not that Apple hasn’t thought about this or that fixing these kinds of bugs would take more than a day or few to fix. The issue is Apple only implemented this feature to head off shareholder criticism, not because it believes it. Apple is not incentivized to make its products less addictive.
- Bud 7y ago
  You're saying this, but you have no actual evidence about why Apple implemented this feature and also zero insight into what incentivizes Apple.
  - mindgam3 7y ago
    > you have no actual evidence about why Apple implemented this feature You mean, other than what is clearly explained in the article? “In early 2018, a pair of major shareholders urged Apple’s board of directors to do something about youth screen addiction... Nine months later, Apple launched Screen Time” > and also zero insight into what incentivizes Apple Would you care to provide any counter evidence or insights of your own, or do you generally prefer defending your position via ad hominen attacks?
    - swatcoder 7y ago
      I can't weigh in on Apple's internal process, but that explanation you quoted from the article is far from convincing to me. In fact, having been in the industry for a very long time, it makes the whole article smell pretty naive. It's _extremely_ unlikely that Screen Time went from nothing to launch in nine months. It's a deceptively complex feature that requires support throughout the OS as well its own foreground and background components. Between product design, prioritizing, development, and testing, they'd probably been exploring the idea for several _years_ before that shareholder pressure appeared. Did they maybe rush the work out early because of the growing pressure? I'd buy that. To me, being pressured to rush it out would even explain some of the rough edges discussed in the article without having to assume Apple was reluctant. I can't know if I'm right, but neither can you or the article's authors. It turns out that there are quite a few ways to make sense of all the facts that are out there, and any final conclusions we draw probably just emerge from our own biases.
Funes- 7y ago
>This is a bit of an inflammatory comparison Fair enough, you admitted it at least. >but I stayed up reading with a flashlight a lot as a kid. Was that terrible for me? Should my flashlight have had a setting to limit the times I can use it? Would anyone say I had an unhealthy book addiction, and that publishers should do something about it? Did it mess with your cognitive abilities? Your self-esteem? Your self-image? Your limbic system, in general? No? Your dopamine receptors, then? Did it fill every minute of your waking life with escapism? Would anyone read while driving? Or during class, meals, family gatherings, dates, meetings, at the movies? You get the point. I think the unhealthy potential of smartphones differs tremendously from that of books, just because of their inherent physical qualities and limitations.
- greene17171717 7y ago
  I’ve definitely had books do all of those things for me, have definitely read in most of those situations.
ghego1 7y ago
> it's not like they're watching porn Unpopular opinion: I would be less preoccupied of a teen watching porn at 2am than on watching clips of videogames
prepend 7y ago
It’s not Apple’s job to parent my kids, but it is Apple’s job to provide access control features (screen time) to admins (parents) that work and can’t be circumvented. Imagine how silly I would sound if I said “It’s not Apple’s job to sysadmin your users” in response to priceless not working properly on user accounts. So while parenting support, or whatever, isn’t that important to me, functioning audit and access controls really is.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

The minute we can find a book that replicates a Skinner box, you may be onto something. I agree that yes, just being on your phone isn't a terrible thing, but it's not really comparable to books just because of its ability to provide more effective, immediate, and addictive feedback.

brlewis 7y ago
I've done reading where my varying enjoyment of different parts was essentially intermittent rewards.
p1necone 7y ago
How exactly do minecraft videos on youtube replicate a skinner box?
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  That's not, but any of the mobile games will be doing their best to replicate the same behaviours, and social media gives fleeting dopamine hits.
- matwood 7y ago
  They give some level of pleasure that the person wants to recreate. Watch another one new to get another hit of pleasure. Repeat.

jressey 7y ago

Smart phone addiction is absolutely real. My neck is sore everyday that I don't consciously make an effort to use my phone less. I hit my 1 hour limit on my reddit app by 9 or 10 every morning. I do agree that it is absolutely not Apple's responsibility to do anything about this. People want to outsource their responsibility as parents and it's pathetic.

joezydeco 7y ago
But Apple has taken some responsibility for this by knocking out third party MDM apps that served this purpose (like OurPact) and then replacing it with a half-finished piece of work that suffers from multiple usability problems. As a parent, I'm taking responsibility for my kids' time and development by making sure the Skinner box is turned off until homework and chores are completed. I don't feel that's outsourcing my work as a parent - it's just one more tool in my toolbox among many. You may disagree and you're raising your own kids differently, and that's just fine.
javagram 7y ago
Parents can’t hover over their kids 24/7. Moreover, I’d question whether having your time micromanaged in such a way by a parent wouldn’t cause resentment and arguments. A technological solution seems perfectly reasonable in that context - and Apple has blocked some third party apps from the store so putting more of an onus on them to fill in the missing capabilities seems reasonable. The parents who don’t want to parent are probably perfectly happy handing youtube to their kids and not monitoring or managing the usage at all.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
Parents need functional tools. Apple providing broken tools is counter-productive to empowering parents to take responsibility.
- jressey 7y ago
  Or you know, physically keep the phone from the children.

mindgam3 7y ago

You glossed over the most legit complaint raised in the article: > They search for bugs that make it easy to keep using their phones, unbeknown to parents, like changing the time to trick the system, or using iMessage to watch YouTube videos. “These are not rocket science, backdoor, dark web sort of hacks,” says Chris McKenna, founder of the Internet safety group Protect Young Eyes. “It blows me away that Apple hasn’t thought through the fact that a persistent middle school boy or girl can bang around and find them.” And yeah, it’s not that Apple hasn’t thought about this or that fixing these kinds of bugs would take more than a day or few to fix. The issue is Apple only implemented this feature to head off shareholder criticism, not because it believes it. Apple is not incentivized to make its products less addictive.

Bud 7y ago
You're saying this, but you have no actual evidence about why Apple implemented this feature and also zero insight into what incentivizes Apple.
- mindgam3 7y ago
  > you have no actual evidence about why Apple implemented this feature You mean, other than what is clearly explained in the article? “In early 2018, a pair of major shareholders urged Apple’s board of directors to do something about youth screen addiction... Nine months later, Apple launched Screen Time” > and also zero insight into what incentivizes Apple Would you care to provide any counter evidence or insights of your own, or do you generally prefer defending your position via ad hominen attacks?
  - swatcoder 7y ago
    I can't weigh in on Apple's internal process, but that explanation you quoted from the article is far from convincing to me. In fact, having been in the industry for a very long time, it makes the whole article smell pretty naive. It's _extremely_ unlikely that Screen Time went from nothing to launch in nine months. It's a deceptively complex feature that requires support throughout the OS as well its own foreground and background components. Between product design, prioritizing, development, and testing, they'd probably been exploring the idea for several _years_ before that shareholder pressure appeared. Did they maybe rush the work out early because of the growing pressure? I'd buy that. To me, being pressured to rush it out would even explain some of the rough edges discussed in the article without having to assume Apple was reluctant. I can't know if I'm right, but neither can you or the article's authors. It turns out that there are quite a few ways to make sense of all the facts that are out there, and any final conclusions we draw probably just emerge from our own biases.

Funes- 7y ago

>This is a bit of an inflammatory comparison Fair enough, you admitted it at least. >but I stayed up reading with a flashlight a lot as a kid. Was that terrible for me? Should my flashlight have had a setting to limit the times I can use it? Would anyone say I had an unhealthy book addiction, and that publishers should do something about it? Did it mess with your cognitive abilities? Your self-esteem? Your self-image? Your limbic system, in general? No? Your dopamine receptors, then? Did it fill every minute of your waking life with escapism? Would anyone read while driving? Or during class, meals, family gatherings, dates, meetings, at the movies? You get the point. I think the unhealthy potential of smartphones differs tremendously from that of books, just because of their inherent physical qualities and limitations.

greene17171717 7y ago
I’ve definitely had books do all of those things for me, have definitely read in most of those situations.

ghego1 7y ago

> it's not like they're watching porn Unpopular opinion: I would be less preoccupied of a teen watching porn at 2am than on watching clips of videogames

prepend 7y ago

It’s not Apple’s job to parent my kids, but it is Apple’s job to provide access control features (screen time) to admins (parents) that work and can’t be circumvented. Imagine how silly I would sound if I said “It’s not Apple’s job to sysadmin your users” in response to priceless not working properly on user accounts. So while parenting support, or whatever, isn’t that important to me, functioning audit and access controls really is.