8 ms·

PG&E has been doing blackouts and brownouts more than basically any other electric company I’ve ever experienced anywhere in the world since I was a little kid.

PG&E has been doing blackouts and brownouts more than basically any other electric company I’ve ever experienced anywhere in the world since I was a little kid. These blackouts may be bigger, but if you’re an institution the size of a university, you should have significant disaster preparedness infrastructure. I mean US universities run police forces! I’m sure they could find a way of designing redundant power into their systems. They might even save money in the long run, and wouldn’t need to worry about campus hospitals or public safety going down in an outage (I’m sure some of that is already taken care of, but why not go all the way).

cft 7y ago
Not really: I was recently in Juticalpa, Honduras (it's a major city, like SF) and we did not have light for three days. Similar experience in Rio Dulce, Guatemala. In the third world, doing science is very difficult, because the infrastructure is just not there.
cbkeller 7y ago
Many universities have "cogeneration" plants that produce electricity, steam for heating, and also hot water. However, they usually don't generate enough electricity to power the whole campus, so the administration chooses who gets it and who doesn't. If these sorts of outages are going to become more common, then the management is going to have to re-evaluate the cost of providing backup power for all labs vs the cost of lost research.
- jumpingmice 7y ago
  The university of California at Berkeley has ample cogeneration capacity but they are tied to PG&E grid and so PG&E can still turn them off.
  - dbcooper 7y ago
    Thanks for the clarification; I was wondering what had happened to their cogeneration plant. I remember some time ago when the cogeneration plant failed and took out power in one building where many biological samples were stored at -80.
  - cbkeller 7y ago
    Wow, that's annoying, too bad that they wouldn't have a way to disconnect. IIRC, Princeton was able to operate some buildings off of the cogen plant during Hurricane Sandy, so I guess they had things engineered differently.
    - dev_dull 7y ago
      All grid tie inverters shut off if power in the lines are down for safety reasons. You would need something special to switch over.
      - cbkeller 7y ago
        Yes of course, I just would have assumed the cost of that is pretty minor compared to the cost of the (apparently) 26 megawatt cogeneration plant
        mbreese 7y ago
        I don’t know — just imagine how many places the mains power is tied into all of the buildings. Each of those places would also need a mains cutoff, and they would need to all be thrown/active at the same time before the cogen plant could be activated independently. At a place the size of UC Berkeley, that would be a pretty big cost (and logistical nightmare). If the system wasn’t designed for the switchover from the beginning, I can see how it would be considered impossible/not practical to do. Especially when this type of “blackout” was thought to be rare. I’m sure the prior assumptions would be reconsidered today.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        > just imagine how many places the mains power is tied into all of the buildings Not many? As in, I don't think many buildings would have two separate power feeds. I'd expect a small number of very large connections from the cogen plant and the outside word into local distribution network(s), and then everything is single-path from there on.
      - 7y ago
  - shagie 7y ago
    I recall some time back, the power generated with cogeneration needed main power with the right frequency to condition(?) it. The cogenerator couldn’t run during a blackout. For a blackout, the diesel generators kicked in (and could completely power the platform).
    - mbreese 7y ago
      Power plants need to be connected to other sources so their AC frequencies can be in phase. If the multiple AC waves were out of phase, you’d cause all sorts of issues. It wouldn’t surprise me if the cogen plant was designed to only work in concert with external power, but not in place of it. Emergency power would be expected to work independently of mains power.
      - the_real_sparky 7y ago
        True for inverter based generation (most renewables like wind and solar), but generally not for rotating machines like most Co-gen plants. Some rotating machines (steam turbines generally) won’t have governors for frequency control, but usually in a CHP plant they would have a linked combustion turbine that does. Rotating machines that are paralleled with the rest of the grid are by default in sync with all of the other rotating machines if there is not some sort of fault situation at the plant or on the grid. If you try to parallel a generator with the grid that is out of sync (frequency or phase), the grid will always win and pull the generator into sync (potentially destructively for the generator). The most likely limitation of a typical power plant operating disconnected from the grid would be if it could “black start” or not. Cogen plants would normally have this capability. Essentially the problem is whether you have enough power available from backup generation to bring all of the plant auxiliary systems online and get the generators initially started and producing power. Once started you set the governor to maintain 60.0Hz (if in North America) and begin slowly bringing on load so you can ramp the generation to match it. The easiest solution to a future blackout would be to match the load in your island area to the output of your plant and then disconnect from the rest of the grid before or at the time the blackout occurs. This way you have avoided the black start situation completely. The blackout detection, disconnection, and load balancing steps can be automated to occur nearly instantly if the system is designed well. The main issue for Berkeley is that the cogeneration plant doesn’t seem to be sized to accommodate their islanded load. This is especially problematic if you lose a generator while islanded because then you will have instant frequency collapse if you were already on the edge of your plant’s capabilities.
  - briandear 7y ago
    I work for a significant tech company in the Valley and we are in the PG&E grid, but we have diesel backup generators that we immediately fired up when power was cut to a few of our buildings. “Tied” to the grid doesn’t preclude backup power. As long as we can get fuel trucks to our buildings, we can run indefinitely.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
zelon88 7y ago
EDIT: I screwed this all up and it's wrong. I tried. I'm sorry. Leaving it up so someone else can give it a go. And there's already a bunch of comments. Washington University uses about 376,394 kWh/year. [1] That's about 7,841.54 kWh/week. Washington pays about 13.1 cents per kWh for power [2]. Running on the electric grid alone this would cost $598.59 per week. This isn't what they pay though, because they offset much of this usage with renewable energy like solar panels. That would take a 50kw generator to power. Assuming they don't power all systems during a blackout they could probably get away with a 25kw generator. For argument, let's assume a 50kw generator full load would probably use about 4.0 gallons of diesel fuel per hour. [3] At $3.64/gallon for diesel [4], at 4.0gallons/day, for one week the university's fuel cost would be $2,446.08. To recap, the university would spend $2,446.08 to generate electricity they could purchase for $598.59 from the electric company during a 7 day blackout at full capacity. [1] https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/25-of-the-most-energy-efficient-colleges/ https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/25-of-the-most-energy-ef... [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/news-release/averageenergyprices_washingtondc.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/news-release/averag... [3] https://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx https://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumpti... [4] https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jumpingmice 7y ago
  How can a university draw only ~50kW? That’s not even one rack of computers. I think you missed a large factor somewhere. UCB has a 26MW gas turbine.
  - skunkworker 7y ago
    That's one and a half industrial combi ovens (each takes 480V 3 phase 38kw power). Those numbers seem so low.
    - duckymcduckface 7y ago
war1025 7y ago
Iowa State University has it's own power plant. Surprised that isn't more common.
- api 7y ago
  University of Cincinnati, Michigan State, lots of large universities have that.
  - war1025 7y ago
    Seemed like it should be fairly common. Saw in a different comment that maybe there is some issue with being able to switch over to only being powered by that plant. Seems odd though, since one of the things I thought was always touted about our municipal power plant growing up was that they could power the town if external power got cut off (But didn't normally because our generators were more expensive to run)
    - sgc 7y ago
      It's a law in California. One that I am sure PG&E lobbied for.
- toomim 7y ago
  U.C. Berkeley does have one too.
makomk 7y ago
If you think that lack of disaster preparedness is bad, apparently many dialysis clinics in California don't have the generation capacity to continue operating during a power outage like this one. No big deal, I mean they're only keeping people alive after all...
wglb 7y ago
But the cost of providing full backup for 5 days has got to be pretty significant. Likely it means diesel generators the size of locomotives, sourcing fuel in what may also be a fuel shortage crunch, maintaining and testing this plant.

cft 7y ago

Not really: I was recently in Juticalpa, Honduras (it's a major city, like SF) and we did not have light for three days. Similar experience in Rio Dulce, Guatemala. In the third world, doing science is very difficult, because the infrastructure is just not there.

cbkeller 7y ago

Many universities have "cogeneration" plants that produce electricity, steam for heating, and also hot water. However, they usually don't generate enough electricity to power the whole campus, so the administration chooses who gets it and who doesn't. If these sorts of outages are going to become more common, then the management is going to have to re-evaluate the cost of providing backup power for all labs vs the cost of lost research.

jumpingmice 7y ago
The university of California at Berkeley has ample cogeneration capacity but they are tied to PG&E grid and so PG&E can still turn them off.
- dbcooper 7y ago
  Thanks for the clarification; I was wondering what had happened to their cogeneration plant. I remember some time ago when the cogeneration plant failed and took out power in one building where many biological samples were stored at -80.
- cbkeller 7y ago
  Wow, that's annoying, too bad that they wouldn't have a way to disconnect. IIRC, Princeton was able to operate some buildings off of the cogen plant during Hurricane Sandy, so I guess they had things engineered differently.
  - dev_dull 7y ago
    All grid tie inverters shut off if power in the lines are down for safety reasons. You would need something special to switch over.
    - cbkeller 7y ago
      Yes of course, I just would have assumed the cost of that is pretty minor compared to the cost of the (apparently) 26 megawatt cogeneration plant
      - mbreese 7y ago
        I don’t know — just imagine how many places the mains power is tied into all of the buildings. Each of those places would also need a mains cutoff, and they would need to all be thrown/active at the same time before the cogen plant could be activated independently. At a place the size of UC Berkeley, that would be a pretty big cost (and logistical nightmare). If the system wasn’t designed for the switchover from the beginning, I can see how it would be considered impossible/not practical to do. Especially when this type of “blackout” was thought to be rare. I’m sure the prior assumptions would be reconsidered today.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        > just imagine how many places the mains power is tied into all of the buildings Not many? As in, I don't think many buildings would have two separate power feeds. I'd expect a small number of very large connections from the cogen plant and the outside word into local distribution network(s), and then everything is single-path from there on.
    - 7y ago
- shagie 7y ago
  I recall some time back, the power generated with cogeneration needed main power with the right frequency to condition(?) it. The cogenerator couldn’t run during a blackout. For a blackout, the diesel generators kicked in (and could completely power the platform).
  - mbreese 7y ago
    Power plants need to be connected to other sources so their AC frequencies can be in phase. If the multiple AC waves were out of phase, you’d cause all sorts of issues. It wouldn’t surprise me if the cogen plant was designed to only work in concert with external power, but not in place of it. Emergency power would be expected to work independently of mains power.
    - the_real_sparky 7y ago
      True for inverter based generation (most renewables like wind and solar), but generally not for rotating machines like most Co-gen plants. Some rotating machines (steam turbines generally) won’t have governors for frequency control, but usually in a CHP plant they would have a linked combustion turbine that does. Rotating machines that are paralleled with the rest of the grid are by default in sync with all of the other rotating machines if there is not some sort of fault situation at the plant or on the grid. If you try to parallel a generator with the grid that is out of sync (frequency or phase), the grid will always win and pull the generator into sync (potentially destructively for the generator). The most likely limitation of a typical power plant operating disconnected from the grid would be if it could “black start” or not. Cogen plants would normally have this capability. Essentially the problem is whether you have enough power available from backup generation to bring all of the plant auxiliary systems online and get the generators initially started and producing power. Once started you set the governor to maintain 60.0Hz (if in North America) and begin slowly bringing on load so you can ramp the generation to match it. The easiest solution to a future blackout would be to match the load in your island area to the output of your plant and then disconnect from the rest of the grid before or at the time the blackout occurs. This way you have avoided the black start situation completely. The blackout detection, disconnection, and load balancing steps can be automated to occur nearly instantly if the system is designed well. The main issue for Berkeley is that the cogeneration plant doesn’t seem to be sized to accommodate their islanded load. This is especially problematic if you lose a generator while islanded because then you will have instant frequency collapse if you were already on the edge of your plant’s capabilities.
- briandear 7y ago
  I work for a significant tech company in the Valley and we are in the PG&E grid, but we have diesel backup generators that we immediately fired up when power was cut to a few of our buildings. “Tied” to the grid doesn’t preclude backup power. As long as we can get fuel trucks to our buildings, we can run indefinitely.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

zelon88 7y ago

EDIT: I screwed this all up and it's wrong. I tried. I'm sorry. Leaving it up so someone else can give it a go. And there's already a bunch of comments. Washington University uses about 376,394 kWh/year. [1] That's about 7,841.54 kWh/week. Washington pays about 13.1 cents per kWh for power [2]. Running on the electric grid alone this would cost $598.59 per week. This isn't what they pay though, because they offset much of this usage with renewable energy like solar panels. That would take a 50kw generator to power. Assuming they don't power all systems during a blackout they could probably get away with a 25kw generator. For argument, let's assume a 50kw generator full load would probably use about 4.0 gallons of diesel fuel per hour. [3] At $3.64/gallon for diesel [4], at 4.0gallons/day, for one week the university's fuel cost would be $2,446.08. To recap, the university would spend $2,446.08 to generate electricity they could purchase for $598.59 from the electric company during a 7 day blackout at full capacity. [1] https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/25-of-the-most-energy-efficient-colleges/ https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/25-of-the-most-energy-ef... [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/news-release/averageenergyprices_washingtondc.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/news-release/averag... [3] https://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx https://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumpti... [4] https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jumpingmice 7y ago
How can a university draw only ~50kW? That’s not even one rack of computers. I think you missed a large factor somewhere. UCB has a 26MW gas turbine.
- skunkworker 7y ago
  That's one and a half industrial combi ovens (each takes 480V 3 phase 38kw power). Those numbers seem so low.
  - duckymcduckface 7y ago

war1025 7y ago

Iowa State University has it's own power plant. Surprised that isn't more common.

api 7y ago
University of Cincinnati, Michigan State, lots of large universities have that.
- war1025 7y ago
  Seemed like it should be fairly common. Saw in a different comment that maybe there is some issue with being able to switch over to only being powered by that plant. Seems odd though, since one of the things I thought was always touted about our municipal power plant growing up was that they could power the town if external power got cut off (But didn't normally because our generators were more expensive to run)
  - sgc 7y ago
    It's a law in California. One that I am sure PG&E lobbied for.
toomim 7y ago
U.C. Berkeley does have one too.

makomk 7y ago

If you think that lack of disaster preparedness is bad, apparently many dialysis clinics in California don't have the generation capacity to continue operating during a power outage like this one. No big deal, I mean they're only keeping people alive after all...

wglb 7y ago

But the cost of providing full backup for 5 days has got to be pretty significant. Likely it means diesel generators the size of locomotives, sourcing fuel in what may also be a fuel shortage crunch, maintaining and testing this plant.