15 ms·

How bullying may shape adolescent brains

192 points by verizonuser 7y ago

devoply 7y ago
Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.
- Dude2029 7y ago
  No, they deserve to be punished. Is there counselling for rapists?
  - CapitalistCartr 7y ago
    There should be. Society would be the better for it.
  - bloak 7y ago
    Oh yes. Those clever psychologists even invented a counselling system that increased the rate of reoffending from 8% to 10%: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49973318 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49973318 Edit: Obviously I would be in favour of counselling that decreased the rate of reoffending.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Let's focus on the actual victims first though, and stop the bullies. There is a meta-argument with regards to free will and whether and how much choice we have in the things we do, but that's a very different discussion (albeit an interesting one) and shouldn't be confused with the one about the bully's acts and immediate (and long term) results.
  - Juliate 7y ago
    Taking care of the victims today does not exclude taking care of the bullies as well. Stopping them does not mean only punishment, but counselling (and sometimes, because they were themselves victims of abuses).
    - luckylion 7y ago
      Given that resources are limited, choices have to be made regarding priority.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        From that perspective, stopping a bully is more effective than helping a victim, because bullies often have more than one target.
        luckylion 7y ago
        That would be the purely financial angle (provided that it's accurate), it doesn't take into account who deserves the help more (which is a moral judgement and is hard to agree on) and how much more. If somebody attacks somebody else and hurts themselves in the process and they both end up needing a new kidney and only one transplant is available, who gets it? Instead of punishing robbers, why don't we just give them enough money to live luxurious lives so they aren't tempted to rob any more people?
        bullytw2019 7y ago
        > If somebody attacks somebody else and hurts themselves in the process and they both end up needing a new kidney and only one transplant is available, who gets it? bad analogy, because in this case it's more like one person's kidney got destroyed and the other lost a lung. You want different types of specialists to deal with victims vs bullies. Assigning the wrong type will probably just make things worse. > Instead of punishing robbers, why don't we just give them enough money to live luxurious lives so they aren't tempted to rob any more people? One could argue that's part of the idea behind Universal Basic Income. That if your needs are being met by UBI, you really "shouldn't" have a reason to need to rob, so at that point they don't have any excuses. (I have skepticism about that in practice, but I get the concept at least.)
- codegladiator 7y ago
  > Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?
  - devoply 7y ago
    Maybe if you counselled them and taught them how to manage their own needs and emotions many of them would not become criminals saving society many ills. You can not eliminate the personality that needs bullying to validate themselves from the population. You can however hep them channel those needs into other things like entrepreneurship and leadership. To productively shape their needs for power over people rather than harassing and harming them.
    - codegladiator 7y ago
      This suggests that the bully/criminal didn't already knew that. Most bullies i have seen didn't become bully because of some trauma.... its just fun to dominate (not even validation IMO).
      - Juliate 7y ago
        Most of the destructive/negative emotions and behaviours someone exhibits, comes from a lack of self-awareness.
      - yetihehe 7y ago
        Anegdotically, I know one bully from high school, who was trying to bully even me in college first year, but he changed, was a good friend and managed to get award for best results from education minister. So not all bullies are bulies for fun. All it took was a change of surroundings (he and two his friends were from "bad" primary school, all of them changed).
  - Juliate 7y ago
    Actually, yes, they do. You want this, especially when you know they will one day get out of jail.
- ryannevius 7y ago
  > Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment I'd replace "rather than" with "in addition to".
  - devoply 7y ago
    You really want to make a must to punish children? If you get in there early there shouldn't be an in addition to. Prison is a final measure when all other measures have failed. Even with prison, first time offenders of non-serious crimes usually do not do time or are diverted to other programs to help them avoid this fate. I just love how all the nerds here are going crazy over letting bullies off the hook initially to try to reform them -- it's as if they all want to bully the bullies.
    - audiometry 7y ago
      Yeah. The downvotes are unwarranted. Both the bullies and victims of bullying are suffering. It’s just that generally the bully is unaware he’s suffering. And yeah to be clear punitive revenge is ugly in all cases and leaves no one better off.
    - lr4444lr 7y ago
      What are you teaching a victim when both he and his bully receive only the same general kind of feel-good therapy?
- traderjane 7y ago
  Western bullying literature suggests that bullying is more like a position that people step in and out of, whereas victimhood is sticky to the individual. It’s easier to predict victims than bullies, and it’s difficult to predict how long someone will remain in the bully position. Bullying predicts general protective effects on the individual and social well-being. It also predicts that peers will rate the bully well, even when the victim rates the bully. This is to say that bullying has a big bystander component (the public reviews the act), and that bullies may do better than the normal population. People who are both bullies and victims experience characteristics from both populations.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Yeah in any school the anti-bullying campaigns are pathetic charades 9 out of 10 times as the amazing selective perception of teachers and faculty strikes again and again to "whatever is an annoyance to them". That is the true reason for lasting trauma and damage to victims - why they cheer at the deaths and destitution of their tormentors decades later. Because finally the assholes get what they deserve. Those who express horror get flipped the bird because they were the same sort of complicit assholes.
  - bigred100 7y ago
    Frankly I think the answer is to just put children who bully in special education programs where they’re taught basic social skills. If they lack the interpersonal skills to not bully, they need remedial instruction in them.
- afandian 7y ago
  Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. These two aren't easily reconcilable. Approach-2-type-people, such as myself, think that this is the only real way to reduce harm and that approach 1 only makes everything worse, and continues the cycle of abuse. I think it's emcumbent on approach 2 to try and understand why people act like approach 1.
  - chimprich 7y ago
    > Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" This seems to be the approach used by many (most?) people in online forums when discussing controversial topics. "Your opinion hurts me, so I'm going to be as offensive as possible in return". It doesn't seem to work very well. HN is maybe a bit more approach #2.
    - afandian 7y ago
      I certainly find the centre of gravity on HN interesting. As a European I wonder how much is US centric, tech or silicon valley. Everyone has unknown biases though. I'm sure that most people are a mix, with the result of cognitive dissonance.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      Basic game theory element - reciprocity. If there are no consequences there is nothing to lose from being an asshole. Hence the behaviors seen when people they have or believe they have impunity.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    I'm not sure those are actually opposing positions. I believe that a stronger split is how important it is to stop the behavior. Imprisoning somebody will immediately stop their behavior and will provide safety for their victims, but we don't want to use an extreme tool like prison to solve a minor infraction (like, say, shoplifting). It seems to me that the debate is often about what is appropriate, where what you describe as "Approach 1" people prefer to err in too strong a measure that makes sure the behavior is stopped, while others prefer to err on the other side, i.e. is it more important to allow a bully to go to school (or live in freedom within society for larger issues), or is it more important to protect other students from them, and how much bad behavior do we accept, how many chances do they get to alter their behavior etc?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose. The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and then only for those who are smart enough that the lessons can sink in, overcoming their distrust of others, authority figures etc.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. I think most bullies are not psychopaths, considering that many don’t stay bullies their entire life.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      But the worst bullies probably are. Thwart the psychopaths first, and you'll probably find that others will lack any reason to bully in the first place - they will no longer be thinking of it as "normal".
    - LorenPechtel 7y ago
      Not all psychopaths are bullies. They can learn to behave even if they lack the emotions to care about others.
  - andoofthewoods 7y ago
    that's a huge assumption you're making. Narcissists and Sociopaths make up 1% of the population each. To characterise most young bullies as narcissists/sociopaths when A - Their brains are still developing, and B - They're at an impressionable age where their sociability is highly moulded by their environment (e.g. parents) is disingenuous.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      I suspect we have even worse matters than the 1% - they are often contagious as you see their actions and rationalizations adopted by not technically sociopaths and narcissists because they are rewarded for it. And just like other conditioned for behavior done independently of when it would actually help them.
- squarefoot 7y ago
  Bullies often reflect the environment they're grown into: bad, absent, abusive or too demanding parents etc. They should be helped before resorting to punishment, but any attempt is deemed to fail if their family refuses to cooperate, which is the most likely case since it implies admitting they suck at parenting.
  - LorenPechtel 7y ago
    Every bully I knew anything about their home situation the fundamental problem was parents that supported the bullying. They would punish their children for wrongdoing they observed but they categorically would not believe any wrongdoing reported by others. A prime example, the kids next door when I was growing up. They were younger than I was and never would try anything alone but two-on-one they would sometimes. (Usually when a third troublemaker was on the scene.) One time I was defending myself against an attack with a belt, I disarmed him and threw the belt into the vines growing on our house--high enough up that it would require a ladder to reach. When the belt was recovered the buckle was missing--they called the cops saying I must have stolen it. Just from talking to them the cop figured out I was acting in self defense, I had no possible way of having stolen the buckle (the instant I had control of the belt I threw it), the buckle must have come off when I threw it, bad luck for them. If the cop could figure that out so could their parents--yet they still felt I had stolen it since it couldn't be found. (Turns out there must have been a crack-the-whip effect, the buckle came off and flew completely over our house. We found it in a flower pot on the other side of the house two years later.)
- maceurt 7y ago
  I agree with you. If you are a child then you are almost entirely dependent on your home and school environment for cues on social development. If a child is bullying another kid then you can almost guarantee it is a problem with their home or with the school.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Well, guess what's the biggest "problem with (the) school" - the inability to get away from a bad environment. And you can't fix that with counseling alone - you actually have to figure out who the worst offenders are, and punish them consistently. The more you can deprive those folks of the social influence among their peers that's what they crave most, the better for everyone else.
    - philpem 7y ago
      The bigger problem is what it does to the victims. If you have no possible escape from the situation, you end up falling into learned helplessness -- nothing I do can affect it, so why fight it. Maybe if I pretend to be dead, the predator will get bored with me and find some other prey...
    - maceurt 7y ago
      "The more you can punish people who are broken socially the more they learn" Punishing a kid is not going to help them get over the fact that their mom abuses them or they don't have a dad or that they are not safe in their neighborhood, etc. Punishment is good, but it can further traumatize or ingrain a kid into their bad behavior. Speaking from personal experience, I remember in elementary school I got very harshly punished and shamed for bullying a kid in my class. After that year I lost almost all my friends, and I was honestly traumatized. I still don't have many or any friends if I am being honest, and I think the situation would have been a lot different if they sat me down and talked to me instead of making me feel like a criminal. Punishment does not really work to curb bullying, and often does more harm than good. Like your not going to have violent bullying for the most part, but you can't stop other types of bullying with punishment.
- LorenPechtel 7y ago
  We don't have meaningful treatment.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TrackerFF 7y ago
Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no talent, are ugly, and a loser, then that's something which probably follow you into adulthood. I know I've seen it many times, with kids from my jr. HS - many still struggle today, as adults in their 30s. Low confidence and poor self-esteem / self-worth is a vicious cycle, and will/can affect all parts of your life down the road.
- harlanji 7y ago
  Sounds right. I was always talented and successful until 2014 when I started getting bullied, when I moved to SF. It’s been downhill since then. I’m now homeless with faded skills and vocabulary and no confidence. Feels like I’ll never get back to a normal life, and indeed at each job the bullying has become more intense and flagrant.
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    You need to work for normal company (not brogrammers startups). At most places, there is simply no bullying, so your problem will solve itself.
    - bigred100 7y ago
      This is one reason I think big dreams and ambitions are a liability. Being a competent worker with a reasonable work ethic, putting money in your 401k, and making sure you’ve got other options if something goes wrong doesn’t leave a lot of openings for bullying. Nobody is going to bully Stanley from the Office and you’d look like a moron for trying.
      - miles 7y ago
        > Nobody is going to bully Stanley from the Office You can say that again! https://tenor.com/view/the-office-stanley-jim-halpert-sumo-wrestling-beach-games-gif-13936147 https://tenor.com/view/the-office-stanley-jim-halpert-sumo-w...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
fortran77 7y ago
I wonder if the people with these brain differences were more susceptible to bullying because of the social cues they express. So it's not bullying shaping brains, it's different types of brains get bullied more. Perhaps they should look at the brains of bullies, too.
- HNLurker2 7y ago
  Just because your brain is different doesn't mean it's not working -- Alan Turing
- screye 7y ago
  Naah, I was bullied heavily in school and have keenly observed those who get bullied. It is the one form the 'out group'. I was bullied because I was the only kid in the group from a 'rival colony' and had 'helicopter-ish' parents. Every bullied kid since was either: fat, ugly, new kid in town, disabled or something like that.
  - andrewjrhill 7y ago
    Can confirm about it being the odd one out. As one of maybe 5 white kids in my very poor school, I was bullied relentlessly from 6 to 12 years old. I was quite an effeminate kid too with long blonde hair. Soft, quiet and not nearly as athletic as the other kids. They were ruthless both verbally and physically. I'm now 29 years old, 6'4", 90kg and I lift 4x a week and _still_ have gddmn self confidence issues. I am considering taking up martial arts in an attempt to break this subconscious mindset which I am almost positive was caused by years of bullying as a child.
    - fortran77 7y ago
      I own a gym, and it's always interesting listening to what the trainers, all nice looking fit guys, worry about, and their own self-confidence issues.
- folkhack 7y ago
  No. Just no. It's the outcast like other folks are saying. It's just "different" - could be anything: small stature, sensitivity, socioeconomic status, race, religion, expressing that you enjoy learning, your mom sewing your clothes, whatever... If you're the minority of a population you're a target and putting it on "brain differences" makes me scoff. You're just a rung on a social ladder that other people are willing to step on time and time again to make sure that they're not at the bottom.
HNLurker2 7y ago
The only way to overcome your bully is to face him, leave him or cope (learned the hard way)
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  And if the bully is your parents, which of these do you recommend? Edit: sorry, that was an unnecessary response by me. Clearly you weren't thinking in those terms. Apologies.
  - AiApotheosis 7y ago
    Until you can separate yourself, learn to cope. Start with "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents". [0] https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1570725592&sr=8-1-spons https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-P...
- Tade0 7y ago
  It's hit and miss for the most part really. I remember confronting my bully in primary school - he stopped after that. But my friend from secondary school who one day finally snapped gained nothing from his confrontation.
- TrackerFF 7y ago
  I was bullied back in middle school, by a bunch of different kids. It was mostly two different groups. It was due to my funny accent, as we had moved abroad during my formative years, and I was speaking another language when we moved back a couple of years later. It all ended when I beat the living crap out of one bully. He was a small guy, and I was already a head taller than most in my class. I just blacked out, and used him as a punching bag after one of his regular snide remarks. He ended up in the hospital with both eyes glued shut, broken nose, and concussion. Teachers and parents were shocked. But I was never bullied after that. I don't advocate violence, but for me, that's unfortunately what worked. (In a interesting twist of faith, years later I actually ended up becoming good friends with some of the bullies, because of shared hobbies, and them maturing)
bane 7y ago
I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such a policy that you've done a bad thing. I was fortunate never to be a victim of bullying, but many of my friends were (we were a bunch of nerds after all). The difference was I had support at home for fighting back because my parents knew the administration wasn't watching out for students well being. The lesson I learned is that fighting back is the single most effective strategy for stopping bullies, and that parents have to ensure that their child is shielded from ineffective school behavioral policies. My friends didn't have such support and suffered from it, and couldn't ever learn that lesson. Some of them couldn't have fought back even if it was okay for them to do so for various reasons. The ones I still have contact with today have lingering social problems from the childhood bullying and this has fully reinforced on me that bullying is a social plague that needs to be aggressively stamped out. There is the other side that bullies themselves are suffering in turn. Many come from shattered home lives or abusive parentage. Those children should be identified and put into some kind of counseling program as early and as intensively as possible. They will also grow up to be damaged in some way because of it and in their lives, perhaps only the school has an opportunity to tamper down their violent instincts. However, the physical and emotional violence that bullies subject others to is absolutely not to be tolerated in any way. And it seems the best way for other children to handle it is to simply do their best to fight back.
- intarga 7y ago
  I think the problem is difficulty defining bullying. Fighting is easy, if you hit someone then you broke the rules, but bullying has a much more blurry line. At my school there was some attempt to crack down on bullying, but instances of bullying were regularly dismissed or reframed as "just banter".
  - watwut 7y ago
    Punishing kids is not answer on itself either. For one, it does not deal with victim at all. In one school I have seen, they had problem with bullying in a class. What they did were regular meet ups of whole class with psychologist and year long programs about communication. Kids were taught how to express what they feel (what and who makes them angry), were taught to listen to other kids, were taught to care about each others feelings, were taught what is big deal and what is not big deal. Slowly over time, situation got better. The point is, solution was not punishment nor seeking who is guilty. It was working with all the kids, bullies, victims, bystanders and teaching them new behavioral patterns. Repeatedly saying the same things, reinforcing same values, playing similar games etc.
schalab 7y ago
Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Now I can see utility in behavior divergent from the norm being encouraged. But at the same time, peer pressure to keep moving and keeping pace is a great motivator for growth. So, I would say the issue needs to be studied with greater depth than it sucks for the guy being bullied. What is the greater effect on the entire population? If you ensure no one gets bullied there is a non zero possibility that it results in a negative effect for the entire population in the long run.
- magduf 7y ago
  >Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Yeah, but you don't see the zebras beating the crap out of each other for being too slow. They just let the lions do it. With us humans, we don't just leave others to their own devices; instead, we take on the role of the predator for no good reason. Basically, humans (some of them) are evil, and get enjoyment from doing evil things to others. Animals just don't have this problem for the most part.
  - wallace_f 7y ago
    Are most people are evil in this way? Most laugh and exhibit schadenfreude. Most of my friends who I played Simcity or GTA with were maniacal murderers in these games.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Most? I don't think so. But some small but significant fraction, perhaps 5% really are, and then they're able to get a good chunk of the rest of the herd to follow along with them.
  - samatman 7y ago
    Chickens, on the other hand, are absolute bastards to one another. We're not much like chickens, thankfully. But we're not much like zebras either.
foobar_ 7y ago
One of the mindsets of the bully is assuming that the victim has something that the bully doesn't. This leads to envy, feeling of self-doubt .... which leads the bully to find the weakness of the victim and punish them for it. After punishing the bully feels "good". The goal behind their bullying behaviour is to eliminate the competition. Apart from this imitation of other bullies and impressing their peers are major factors. Ex) A jock might envy the smartness of a nerd. A conservative might envy the freedom of a liberal.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Yup, that's exactly what narcissism is. "I can't possibly deal with being made to feel like a loser, so I will hurt those who might otherwise threaten my exaggerated ego". It's not a healthy mindset at all, it's a sign of serious pathology.
  - wallace_f 7y ago
    Aren't most people like this, though?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - javelinaway 7y ago
      Nobody likes being made to feel like a loser, but not everybody feels some sort of entitlement to hurt others as a way of coping.
      - wallace_f 7y ago
        Are you sure? Have you read human history? Or read about corruption in finance, healthcare, education, etc?
        foobar_ 7y ago
        Narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths make up 10-15% of the population. It's normal for them.
leoc 7y ago
I used to worry about this kind of thing, but after a while obverving the primate social behaviours on display on journalist/pundit/etc. Twitter I'm starting to be more worried about the damaging psychological effects of not being bullied enough at school. (Just half-joking.)
bullied 7y ago
I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets, accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult to say how much was due to the bullying, but I do think of these horrible memories daily and have done so for a long time. Perhaps my life would have turned out similarly even without such traumatic childhood events. Then again, I’m a pretty cynical person who simply doesn’t give a shit about being alive, due to believing people are consistently low quality in seemingly all walks of life. The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives. As I recall, the bullying occurred at school as a child, at university, at work, and in public by strangers has occurred consistently in any walk of life Bullying seems to be a valid filtering process, as I was the weaker genetic offspring who correspondingly didn’t procreate. Meanwhile, I’ve spent decades immersed in disdain for my own species and self.
- wallace_f 7y ago
  I'm sorry about these experiences. I also experienced a mix of bullying that became worse as I became an adult. I would caution you about your conclusion that it is the weak who get bullied. While this may be true many times, it is certainly not universal. Korolev is perhaps the greatest engineer of the 20th century and he was bullied nearly to death... As an adult.
- mywittyname 7y ago
  > The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives. There's a book called Ginger Kid which does a good job at highlighting this phenomena. The author discusses at length how the kids who made his life hell as a child went on to be respected professionals. For example, a guy who pulled a razor on him in school is now a famous rapper. I'm sure it had some lasting effects on him, as now he's a comedian who's notable for his humiliation of audience members who heckle or distract him.
- reduceacc 7y ago
  There's every reason to be negative and cynical when you've had experiences like yours which also shape the lens of your current interactions. In saying that, I don't believe it's popular in HN but you might find some usefulness in lectures by Dr. Jordan Peterson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM - why everything you do matters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 - advice for people with depression https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A I picked out three of these that I think give a decent overflow on some of his central ideas. Some people view his videos for different reasons, like commentary on cultural war issues in the west, or his studies into the societal causes of authoritarianism. However, many are mainly interested in his lectures on how you can start to claw back some meaning in your life by focusing on adding a little order to small things, and then increasing that little by little over time. There's no suggestions to abandon medicine if it can help you, or to avoid professionals who can assist you in this. Rather than taking the usual self-help route of trying to lead with saying how awesome life is, his writings often explore the reasons people can rationally come to the conclusion that life is meaningless suffering and that we should instead pursue pleasure at all costs because of it. Despite appearing rational on the surface, he then goes on to explore how that can actually lead to an empty vessel of a human experience. By focusing on restoring order a little a time, it's thought that you can reduce suffering just a little, and that despite the nihilistic thoughts, reducing suffering can only be a good thing for both you and anyone you connect with. There's a big focus on mythology and literature (pinocchio, peter pan etc), but it's usually a mechanism to convey the wisdom they try to distill. I wish you well in finding some meaning, it can be a long journey without help and hopefully the videos provide a starting point.
marcus_holmes 7y ago
I literally just told a security guard at the PyCon in Berlin to go f* themselves as a direct result of bullying I experienced at boarding school in the '70s. It took 2 years of therapy to make that connection, though.
UncleOxidant 7y ago
50-something here. I was bullied a lot in elementary, jr. high and high school probably because I was the nerdy kid who was into science. We also moved a lot so I was always the outsider. While my home life was fine (my parents were great) I do suffer from anxiety and difficulty staying in a job for more than a year or two. I've only recently started to make the connection with the bullying I received. Back in the 70s & 80s when I was in school the attitude was that bullying made the bullied stronger so adults rarely intervened (as they thought that conversely, doing so would make the bullied kid "weaker"). Even the response of my parents was to put me into Karate classes - I think that did help some as I did gain more confidence, but I think the policy now to stop bullying in the schools is much better.
- countingsheep 7y ago
  Your words exactly describe my struggles in childhood and career. The only difference is I did Tae Kwon Do and my schools cracked down on bullying after Columbine because they were scared one of us nerds might snap.
- chimi 7y ago
  Anxiety as an emotion is very similar to excitement. Sam Harris discusses this a lot. I never got from him what exactly the difference is, but the other day in the car, I felt excited and started really analyzing why. What I believe now is that the difference between anxiety and excitement is: perception of outcome. If you have a positive expected outcome, you are excited. If you have a negative expected outcome you are anxious. The next step, is to convert anxiety into excitement. I'm still working on this part. I think this is where "little victories" come into play. If you have a series of successes that can change your perception of outcome from negative to positive it might work over the long term. In the short term, "happy thoughts" might work. "You can do it!!" Encouragement. Confidence. Of course all of this is very new to me, so these are mostly just my hypotheses, but I plan to examine the ideas in more detail and see what I can do with it...
  - axaxs 7y ago
    Anxiety, at least medically speaking, seems to be a loaded word. I've been told I had "anxiety" for some health related symptoms I had experienced, though I feel nothing like excitement nor dread. It's a very strange thought...almost what I might call 'subconscious anxiety'. As in, I don't mind people and am not anti social. But sometimes, in large noisy crowds, would feel lightheaded as if were going to pass out. Never really figured that one out - just wanted to point out that anxiety isn't always just a person thinking negatively.
ekanes 7y ago
I was bullied in school, and jiu jitsu feels like it's re-wiring my brain and erasing much of the damage (fear of conflict, especially with males).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
anxman 7y ago
Can confirm. I was bullied by my verbally abusive brother for almost 35 years. I have diagnosed PTSD now.

192 points by verizonuser 7y ago

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Dude2029 7y ago
No, they deserve to be punished. Is there counselling for rapists?
- CapitalistCartr 7y ago
  There should be. Society would be the better for it.
- bloak 7y ago
  Oh yes. Those clever psychologists even invented a counselling system that increased the rate of reoffending from 8% to 10%: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49973318 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49973318 Edit: Obviously I would be in favour of counselling that decreased the rate of reoffending.
luckylion 7y ago
Let's focus on the actual victims first though, and stop the bullies. There is a meta-argument with regards to free will and whether and how much choice we have in the things we do, but that's a very different discussion (albeit an interesting one) and shouldn't be confused with the one about the bully's acts and immediate (and long term) results.
- Juliate 7y ago
  Taking care of the victims today does not exclude taking care of the bullies as well. Stopping them does not mean only punishment, but counselling (and sometimes, because they were themselves victims of abuses).
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Given that resources are limited, choices have to be made regarding priority.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      From that perspective, stopping a bully is more effective than helping a victim, because bullies often have more than one target.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        That would be the purely financial angle (provided that it's accurate), it doesn't take into account who deserves the help more (which is a moral judgement and is hard to agree on) and how much more. If somebody attacks somebody else and hurts themselves in the process and they both end up needing a new kidney and only one transplant is available, who gets it? Instead of punishing robbers, why don't we just give them enough money to live luxurious lives so they aren't tempted to rob any more people?
        bullytw2019 7y ago
        > If somebody attacks somebody else and hurts themselves in the process and they both end up needing a new kidney and only one transplant is available, who gets it? bad analogy, because in this case it's more like one person's kidney got destroyed and the other lost a lung. You want different types of specialists to deal with victims vs bullies. Assigning the wrong type will probably just make things worse. > Instead of punishing robbers, why don't we just give them enough money to live luxurious lives so they aren't tempted to rob any more people? One could argue that's part of the idea behind Universal Basic Income. That if your needs are being met by UBI, you really "shouldn't" have a reason to need to rob, so at that point they don't have any excuses. (I have skepticism about that in practice, but I get the concept at least.)
codegladiator 7y ago
> Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?
- devoply 7y ago
  Maybe if you counselled them and taught them how to manage their own needs and emotions many of them would not become criminals saving society many ills. You can not eliminate the personality that needs bullying to validate themselves from the population. You can however hep them channel those needs into other things like entrepreneurship and leadership. To productively shape their needs for power over people rather than harassing and harming them.
  - codegladiator 7y ago
    This suggests that the bully/criminal didn't already knew that. Most bullies i have seen didn't become bully because of some trauma.... its just fun to dominate (not even validation IMO).
    - Juliate 7y ago
      Most of the destructive/negative emotions and behaviours someone exhibits, comes from a lack of self-awareness.
    - yetihehe 7y ago
      Anegdotically, I know one bully from high school, who was trying to bully even me in college first year, but he changed, was a good friend and managed to get award for best results from education minister. So not all bullies are bulies for fun. All it took was a change of surroundings (he and two his friends were from "bad" primary school, all of them changed).
- Juliate 7y ago
  Actually, yes, they do. You want this, especially when you know they will one day get out of jail.
ryannevius 7y ago
> Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment I'd replace "rather than" with "in addition to".
- devoply 7y ago
  You really want to make a must to punish children? If you get in there early there shouldn't be an in addition to. Prison is a final measure when all other measures have failed. Even with prison, first time offenders of non-serious crimes usually do not do time or are diverted to other programs to help them avoid this fate. I just love how all the nerds here are going crazy over letting bullies off the hook initially to try to reform them -- it's as if they all want to bully the bullies.
  - audiometry 7y ago
    Yeah. The downvotes are unwarranted. Both the bullies and victims of bullying are suffering. It’s just that generally the bully is unaware he’s suffering. And yeah to be clear punitive revenge is ugly in all cases and leaves no one better off.
  - lr4444lr 7y ago
    What are you teaching a victim when both he and his bully receive only the same general kind of feel-good therapy?
traderjane 7y ago
Western bullying literature suggests that bullying is more like a position that people step in and out of, whereas victimhood is sticky to the individual. It’s easier to predict victims than bullies, and it’s difficult to predict how long someone will remain in the bully position. Bullying predicts general protective effects on the individual and social well-being. It also predicts that peers will rate the bully well, even when the victim rates the bully. This is to say that bullying has a big bystander component (the public reviews the act), and that bullies may do better than the normal population. People who are both bullies and victims experience characteristics from both populations.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Yeah in any school the anti-bullying campaigns are pathetic charades 9 out of 10 times as the amazing selective perception of teachers and faculty strikes again and again to "whatever is an annoyance to them". That is the true reason for lasting trauma and damage to victims - why they cheer at the deaths and destitution of their tormentors decades later. Because finally the assholes get what they deserve. Those who express horror get flipped the bird because they were the same sort of complicit assholes.
- bigred100 7y ago
  Frankly I think the answer is to just put children who bully in special education programs where they’re taught basic social skills. If they lack the interpersonal skills to not bully, they need remedial instruction in them.
afandian 7y ago
Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. These two aren't easily reconcilable. Approach-2-type-people, such as myself, think that this is the only real way to reduce harm and that approach 1 only makes everything worse, and continues the cycle of abuse. I think it's emcumbent on approach 2 to try and understand why people act like approach 1.
- chimprich 7y ago
  > Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" This seems to be the approach used by many (most?) people in online forums when discussing controversial topics. "Your opinion hurts me, so I'm going to be as offensive as possible in return". It doesn't seem to work very well. HN is maybe a bit more approach #2.
  - afandian 7y ago
    I certainly find the centre of gravity on HN interesting. As a European I wonder how much is US centric, tech or silicon valley. Everyone has unknown biases though. I'm sure that most people are a mix, with the result of cognitive dissonance.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Basic game theory element - reciprocity. If there are no consequences there is nothing to lose from being an asshole. Hence the behaviors seen when people they have or believe they have impunity.
- luckylion 7y ago
  I'm not sure those are actually opposing positions. I believe that a stronger split is how important it is to stop the behavior. Imprisoning somebody will immediately stop their behavior and will provide safety for their victims, but we don't want to use an extreme tool like prison to solve a minor infraction (like, say, shoplifting). It seems to me that the debate is often about what is appropriate, where what you describe as "Approach 1" people prefer to err in too strong a measure that makes sure the behavior is stopped, while others prefer to err on the other side, i.e. is it more important to allow a bully to go to school (or live in freedom within society for larger issues), or is it more important to protect other students from them, and how much bad behavior do we accept, how many chances do they get to alter their behavior etc?
zozbot234 7y ago
Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose. The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and then only for those who are smart enough that the lessons can sink in, overcoming their distrust of others, authority figures etc.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. I think most bullies are not psychopaths, considering that many don’t stay bullies their entire life.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    But the worst bullies probably are. Thwart the psychopaths first, and you'll probably find that others will lack any reason to bully in the first place - they will no longer be thinking of it as "normal".
  - LorenPechtel 7y ago
    Not all psychopaths are bullies. They can learn to behave even if they lack the emotions to care about others.
- andoofthewoods 7y ago
  that's a huge assumption you're making. Narcissists and Sociopaths make up 1% of the population each. To characterise most young bullies as narcissists/sociopaths when A - Their brains are still developing, and B - They're at an impressionable age where their sociability is highly moulded by their environment (e.g. parents) is disingenuous.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    I suspect we have even worse matters than the 1% - they are often contagious as you see their actions and rationalizations adopted by not technically sociopaths and narcissists because they are rewarded for it. And just like other conditioned for behavior done independently of when it would actually help them.
squarefoot 7y ago
Bullies often reflect the environment they're grown into: bad, absent, abusive or too demanding parents etc. They should be helped before resorting to punishment, but any attempt is deemed to fail if their family refuses to cooperate, which is the most likely case since it implies admitting they suck at parenting.
- LorenPechtel 7y ago
  Every bully I knew anything about their home situation the fundamental problem was parents that supported the bullying. They would punish their children for wrongdoing they observed but they categorically would not believe any wrongdoing reported by others. A prime example, the kids next door when I was growing up. They were younger than I was and never would try anything alone but two-on-one they would sometimes. (Usually when a third troublemaker was on the scene.) One time I was defending myself against an attack with a belt, I disarmed him and threw the belt into the vines growing on our house--high enough up that it would require a ladder to reach. When the belt was recovered the buckle was missing--they called the cops saying I must have stolen it. Just from talking to them the cop figured out I was acting in self defense, I had no possible way of having stolen the buckle (the instant I had control of the belt I threw it), the buckle must have come off when I threw it, bad luck for them. If the cop could figure that out so could their parents--yet they still felt I had stolen it since it couldn't be found. (Turns out there must have been a crack-the-whip effect, the buckle came off and flew completely over our house. We found it in a flower pot on the other side of the house two years later.)
maceurt 7y ago
I agree with you. If you are a child then you are almost entirely dependent on your home and school environment for cues on social development. If a child is bullying another kid then you can almost guarantee it is a problem with their home or with the school.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Well, guess what's the biggest "problem with (the) school" - the inability to get away from a bad environment. And you can't fix that with counseling alone - you actually have to figure out who the worst offenders are, and punish them consistently. The more you can deprive those folks of the social influence among their peers that's what they crave most, the better for everyone else.
  - philpem 7y ago
    The bigger problem is what it does to the victims. If you have no possible escape from the situation, you end up falling into learned helplessness -- nothing I do can affect it, so why fight it. Maybe if I pretend to be dead, the predator will get bored with me and find some other prey...
  - maceurt 7y ago
    "The more you can punish people who are broken socially the more they learn" Punishing a kid is not going to help them get over the fact that their mom abuses them or they don't have a dad or that they are not safe in their neighborhood, etc. Punishment is good, but it can further traumatize or ingrain a kid into their bad behavior. Speaking from personal experience, I remember in elementary school I got very harshly punished and shamed for bullying a kid in my class. After that year I lost almost all my friends, and I was honestly traumatized. I still don't have many or any friends if I am being honest, and I think the situation would have been a lot different if they sat me down and talked to me instead of making me feel like a criminal. Punishment does not really work to curb bullying, and often does more harm than good. Like your not going to have violent bullying for the most part, but you can't stop other types of bullying with punishment.
LorenPechtel 7y ago
We don't have meaningful treatment.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TrackerFF 7y ago

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no talent, are ugly, and a loser, then that's something which probably follow you into adulthood. I know I've seen it many times, with kids from my jr. HS - many still struggle today, as adults in their 30s. Low confidence and poor self-esteem / self-worth is a vicious cycle, and will/can affect all parts of your life down the road.

harlanji 7y ago
Sounds right. I was always talented and successful until 2014 when I started getting bullied, when I moved to SF. It’s been downhill since then. I’m now homeless with faded skills and vocabulary and no confidence. Feels like I’ll never get back to a normal life, and indeed at each job the bullying has become more intense and flagrant.
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  You need to work for normal company (not brogrammers startups). At most places, there is simply no bullying, so your problem will solve itself.
  - bigred100 7y ago
    This is one reason I think big dreams and ambitions are a liability. Being a competent worker with a reasonable work ethic, putting money in your 401k, and making sure you’ve got other options if something goes wrong doesn’t leave a lot of openings for bullying. Nobody is going to bully Stanley from the Office and you’d look like a moron for trying.
    - miles 7y ago
      > Nobody is going to bully Stanley from the Office You can say that again! https://tenor.com/view/the-office-stanley-jim-halpert-sumo-wrestling-beach-games-gif-13936147 https://tenor.com/view/the-office-stanley-jim-halpert-sumo-w...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

fortran77 7y ago

I wonder if the people with these brain differences were more susceptible to bullying because of the social cues they express. So it's not bullying shaping brains, it's different types of brains get bullied more. Perhaps they should look at the brains of bullies, too.

HNLurker2 7y ago
Just because your brain is different doesn't mean it's not working -- Alan Turing
screye 7y ago
Naah, I was bullied heavily in school and have keenly observed those who get bullied. It is the one form the 'out group'. I was bullied because I was the only kid in the group from a 'rival colony' and had 'helicopter-ish' parents. Every bullied kid since was either: fat, ugly, new kid in town, disabled or something like that.
- andrewjrhill 7y ago
  Can confirm about it being the odd one out. As one of maybe 5 white kids in my very poor school, I was bullied relentlessly from 6 to 12 years old. I was quite an effeminate kid too with long blonde hair. Soft, quiet and not nearly as athletic as the other kids. They were ruthless both verbally and physically. I'm now 29 years old, 6'4", 90kg and I lift 4x a week and _still_ have gddmn self confidence issues. I am considering taking up martial arts in an attempt to break this subconscious mindset which I am almost positive was caused by years of bullying as a child.
  - fortran77 7y ago
    I own a gym, and it's always interesting listening to what the trainers, all nice looking fit guys, worry about, and their own self-confidence issues.
folkhack 7y ago
No. Just no. It's the outcast like other folks are saying. It's just "different" - could be anything: small stature, sensitivity, socioeconomic status, race, religion, expressing that you enjoy learning, your mom sewing your clothes, whatever... If you're the minority of a population you're a target and putting it on "brain differences" makes me scoff. You're just a rung on a social ladder that other people are willing to step on time and time again to make sure that they're not at the bottom.

HNLurker2 7y ago

The only way to overcome your bully is to face him, leave him or cope (learned the hard way)

tempguy9999 7y ago
And if the bully is your parents, which of these do you recommend? Edit: sorry, that was an unnecessary response by me. Clearly you weren't thinking in those terms. Apologies.
- AiApotheosis 7y ago
  Until you can separate yourself, learn to cope. Start with "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents". [0] https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1570725592&sr=8-1-spons https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-P...
Tade0 7y ago
It's hit and miss for the most part really. I remember confronting my bully in primary school - he stopped after that. But my friend from secondary school who one day finally snapped gained nothing from his confrontation.
TrackerFF 7y ago
I was bullied back in middle school, by a bunch of different kids. It was mostly two different groups. It was due to my funny accent, as we had moved abroad during my formative years, and I was speaking another language when we moved back a couple of years later. It all ended when I beat the living crap out of one bully. He was a small guy, and I was already a head taller than most in my class. I just blacked out, and used him as a punching bag after one of his regular snide remarks. He ended up in the hospital with both eyes glued shut, broken nose, and concussion. Teachers and parents were shocked. But I was never bullied after that. I don't advocate violence, but for me, that's unfortunately what worked. (In a interesting twist of faith, years later I actually ended up becoming good friends with some of the bullies, because of shared hobbies, and them maturing)

bane 7y ago

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such a policy that you've done a bad thing. I was fortunate never to be a victim of bullying, but many of my friends were (we were a bunch of nerds after all). The difference was I had support at home for fighting back because my parents knew the administration wasn't watching out for students well being. The lesson I learned is that fighting back is the single most effective strategy for stopping bullies, and that parents have to ensure that their child is shielded from ineffective school behavioral policies. My friends didn't have such support and suffered from it, and couldn't ever learn that lesson. Some of them couldn't have fought back even if it was okay for them to do so for various reasons. The ones I still have contact with today have lingering social problems from the childhood bullying and this has fully reinforced on me that bullying is a social plague that needs to be aggressively stamped out. There is the other side that bullies themselves are suffering in turn. Many come from shattered home lives or abusive parentage. Those children should be identified and put into some kind of counseling program as early and as intensively as possible. They will also grow up to be damaged in some way because of it and in their lives, perhaps only the school has an opportunity to tamper down their violent instincts. However, the physical and emotional violence that bullies subject others to is absolutely not to be tolerated in any way. And it seems the best way for other children to handle it is to simply do their best to fight back.

intarga 7y ago
I think the problem is difficulty defining bullying. Fighting is easy, if you hit someone then you broke the rules, but bullying has a much more blurry line. At my school there was some attempt to crack down on bullying, but instances of bullying were regularly dismissed or reframed as "just banter".
- watwut 7y ago
  Punishing kids is not answer on itself either. For one, it does not deal with victim at all. In one school I have seen, they had problem with bullying in a class. What they did were regular meet ups of whole class with psychologist and year long programs about communication. Kids were taught how to express what they feel (what and who makes them angry), were taught to listen to other kids, were taught to care about each others feelings, were taught what is big deal and what is not big deal. Slowly over time, situation got better. The point is, solution was not punishment nor seeking who is guilty. It was working with all the kids, bullies, victims, bystanders and teaching them new behavioral patterns. Repeatedly saying the same things, reinforcing same values, playing similar games etc.

schalab 7y ago

Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Now I can see utility in behavior divergent from the norm being encouraged. But at the same time, peer pressure to keep moving and keeping pace is a great motivator for growth. So, I would say the issue needs to be studied with greater depth than it sucks for the guy being bullied. What is the greater effect on the entire population? If you ensure no one gets bullied there is a non zero possibility that it results in a negative effect for the entire population in the long run.

magduf 7y ago
>Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Yeah, but you don't see the zebras beating the crap out of each other for being too slow. They just let the lions do it. With us humans, we don't just leave others to their own devices; instead, we take on the role of the predator for no good reason. Basically, humans (some of them) are evil, and get enjoyment from doing evil things to others. Animals just don't have this problem for the most part.
- wallace_f 7y ago
  Are most people are evil in this way? Most laugh and exhibit schadenfreude. Most of my friends who I played Simcity or GTA with were maniacal murderers in these games.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Most? I don't think so. But some small but significant fraction, perhaps 5% really are, and then they're able to get a good chunk of the rest of the herd to follow along with them.
- samatman 7y ago
  Chickens, on the other hand, are absolute bastards to one another. We're not much like chickens, thankfully. But we're not much like zebras either.

foobar_ 7y ago

One of the mindsets of the bully is assuming that the victim has something that the bully doesn't. This leads to envy, feeling of self-doubt .... which leads the bully to find the weakness of the victim and punish them for it. After punishing the bully feels "good". The goal behind their bullying behaviour is to eliminate the competition. Apart from this imitation of other bullies and impressing their peers are major factors. Ex) A jock might envy the smartness of a nerd. A conservative might envy the freedom of a liberal.

zozbot234 7y ago
Yup, that's exactly what narcissism is. "I can't possibly deal with being made to feel like a loser, so I will hurt those who might otherwise threaten my exaggerated ego". It's not a healthy mindset at all, it's a sign of serious pathology.
- wallace_f 7y ago
  Aren't most people like this, though?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - javelinaway 7y ago
    Nobody likes being made to feel like a loser, but not everybody feels some sort of entitlement to hurt others as a way of coping.
    - wallace_f 7y ago
      Are you sure? Have you read human history? Or read about corruption in finance, healthcare, education, etc?
      - foobar_ 7y ago
        Narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths make up 10-15% of the population. It's normal for them.

leoc 7y ago

I used to worry about this kind of thing, but after a while obverving the primate social behaviours on display on journalist/pundit/etc. Twitter I'm starting to be more worried about the damaging psychological effects of not being bullied enough at school. (Just half-joking.)

bullied 7y ago

I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets, accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult to say how much was due to the bullying, but I do think of these horrible memories daily and have done so for a long time. Perhaps my life would have turned out similarly even without such traumatic childhood events. Then again, I’m a pretty cynical person who simply doesn’t give a shit about being alive, due to believing people are consistently low quality in seemingly all walks of life. The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives. As I recall, the bullying occurred at school as a child, at university, at work, and in public by strangers has occurred consistently in any walk of life Bullying seems to be a valid filtering process, as I was the weaker genetic offspring who correspondingly didn’t procreate. Meanwhile, I’ve spent decades immersed in disdain for my own species and self.

wallace_f 7y ago
I'm sorry about these experiences. I also experienced a mix of bullying that became worse as I became an adult. I would caution you about your conclusion that it is the weak who get bullied. While this may be true many times, it is certainly not universal. Korolev is perhaps the greatest engineer of the 20th century and he was bullied nearly to death... As an adult.
mywittyname 7y ago
> The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives. There's a book called Ginger Kid which does a good job at highlighting this phenomena. The author discusses at length how the kids who made his life hell as a child went on to be respected professionals. For example, a guy who pulled a razor on him in school is now a famous rapper. I'm sure it had some lasting effects on him, as now he's a comedian who's notable for his humiliation of audience members who heckle or distract him.
reduceacc 7y ago
There's every reason to be negative and cynical when you've had experiences like yours which also shape the lens of your current interactions. In saying that, I don't believe it's popular in HN but you might find some usefulness in lectures by Dr. Jordan Peterson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM - why everything you do matters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 - advice for people with depression https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A I picked out three of these that I think give a decent overflow on some of his central ideas. Some people view his videos for different reasons, like commentary on cultural war issues in the west, or his studies into the societal causes of authoritarianism. However, many are mainly interested in his lectures on how you can start to claw back some meaning in your life by focusing on adding a little order to small things, and then increasing that little by little over time. There's no suggestions to abandon medicine if it can help you, or to avoid professionals who can assist you in this. Rather than taking the usual self-help route of trying to lead with saying how awesome life is, his writings often explore the reasons people can rationally come to the conclusion that life is meaningless suffering and that we should instead pursue pleasure at all costs because of it. Despite appearing rational on the surface, he then goes on to explore how that can actually lead to an empty vessel of a human experience. By focusing on restoring order a little a time, it's thought that you can reduce suffering just a little, and that despite the nihilistic thoughts, reducing suffering can only be a good thing for both you and anyone you connect with. There's a big focus on mythology and literature (pinocchio, peter pan etc), but it's usually a mechanism to convey the wisdom they try to distill. I wish you well in finding some meaning, it can be a long journey without help and hopefully the videos provide a starting point.

marcus_holmes 7y ago

I literally just told a security guard at the PyCon in Berlin to go f* themselves as a direct result of bullying I experienced at boarding school in the '70s. It took 2 years of therapy to make that connection, though.

UncleOxidant 7y ago

50-something here. I was bullied a lot in elementary, jr. high and high school probably because I was the nerdy kid who was into science. We also moved a lot so I was always the outsider. While my home life was fine (my parents were great) I do suffer from anxiety and difficulty staying in a job for more than a year or two. I've only recently started to make the connection with the bullying I received. Back in the 70s & 80s when I was in school the attitude was that bullying made the bullied stronger so adults rarely intervened (as they thought that conversely, doing so would make the bullied kid "weaker"). Even the response of my parents was to put me into Karate classes - I think that did help some as I did gain more confidence, but I think the policy now to stop bullying in the schools is much better.

countingsheep 7y ago
Your words exactly describe my struggles in childhood and career. The only difference is I did Tae Kwon Do and my schools cracked down on bullying after Columbine because they were scared one of us nerds might snap.
chimi 7y ago
Anxiety as an emotion is very similar to excitement. Sam Harris discusses this a lot. I never got from him what exactly the difference is, but the other day in the car, I felt excited and started really analyzing why. What I believe now is that the difference between anxiety and excitement is: perception of outcome. If you have a positive expected outcome, you are excited. If you have a negative expected outcome you are anxious. The next step, is to convert anxiety into excitement. I'm still working on this part. I think this is where "little victories" come into play. If you have a series of successes that can change your perception of outcome from negative to positive it might work over the long term. In the short term, "happy thoughts" might work. "You can do it!!" Encouragement. Confidence. Of course all of this is very new to me, so these are mostly just my hypotheses, but I plan to examine the ideas in more detail and see what I can do with it...
- axaxs 7y ago
  Anxiety, at least medically speaking, seems to be a loaded word. I've been told I had "anxiety" for some health related symptoms I had experienced, though I feel nothing like excitement nor dread. It's a very strange thought...almost what I might call 'subconscious anxiety'. As in, I don't mind people and am not anti social. But sometimes, in large noisy crowds, would feel lightheaded as if were going to pass out. Never really figured that one out - just wanted to point out that anxiety isn't always just a person thinking negatively.

ekanes 7y ago

I was bullied in school, and jiu jitsu feels like it's re-wiring my brain and erasing much of the damage (fear of conflict, especially with males).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

anxman 7y ago

Can confirm. I was bullied by my verbally abusive brother for almost 35 years. I have diagnosed PTSD now.