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Leaving the Bay Area is an appealing prospect in order to save on housing costs, but there are two issues that some people would need to consider in order to ma

Leaving the Bay Area is an appealing prospect in order to save on housing costs, but there are two issues that some people would need to consider in order to make that move: 1. There are some specialized types of jobs in the software industry where there are only a small handful of employers and where most of those employers are located in Silicon Valley. There are some areas in the software industry, such as web development and enterprise software, where there are plenty of jobs outside Silicon Valley and similar tech hubs. Plenty of businesses need custom applications, and the Microsoft software stack of Windows Server, SQL Server, .NET, Azure, and other products is commonly used outside of Silicon Valley, which seems to be focused on Linux. But suppose you work in the area of compilers, or you're an operating systems developer. The chances of moving to a place that isn't a tech hub and finding a compiler or operating systems development job is lower than finding a web development or Microsoft enterprise app development position. My line of work is in research in systems and AI, and it would be difficult for me to me to find similar work in most American metro areas outside of the Bay Area, Seattle, Austin, and New York, all of which (except for Austin) are expensive. 2. The Bay Area is famous for its acceptance of diverse cultures, lifestyles, and worldviews. The Bay Area's cosmopolitan atmosphere is one of my favorite aspects of living in the area. However, cosmopolitan urban areas in the United States tend to be expensive. New York, Boston, Seattle, and Los Angeles are still expensive places, even if they are not as expensive as the Bay Area. An exception to the correlation between cosmopolitanism and expense is Sacramento, a very diverse place which by California standards is also still affordable despite rising housing prices. I would not mind living there, but it's a very long commute to Silicon Valley, and there are not many jobs in my subfield of systems and AI research in the Sacramento area. If I couldn't live in or near a diverse, cosmopolitan area, my next preference would be a tourist town with a nice, laid-back atmosphere, such as many of the towns on the Central Coast of California. But, once again, those areas lack the jobs I want.

mister_hn 7y ago
We need Bay Area salaries everywhere in the world and we will happy I guess
- hw 7y ago
  Not if the Bay Area cost of living (housing, gas, traffic, food) comes with it
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    You can't have bay area congestion unless you plan on importing another 100 million people.
  - mister_hn 7y ago
    ok Bay Area salaries with Indian prices
break_the_bank 7y ago
People in the first category can probably afford to find a place to live in Silicon Valley / San Diego. Their salaries account for housing and housing prices account for their salaries.
- linguae 7y ago
  It depends on the companies these people work for, though. Someone who has worked for a company like Facebook or Google with large salaries and generous RSU grants will eventually be able to buy a house in Silicon Valley. The RSUs would be enough for a down payment, and their salaries are sufficiently high to cover the mortgage. Now, places like Cupertino and Sunnyvale may still be stretch goals because a house in those cities could exceed $2 million, but a $1 million house in Fremont, Milpitas, San Jose, or Redwood City is entirely in reach for people with that level of compensation. But not all tech companies in Silicon Valley pay Facebook/Google levels of compensation. There are plenty of engineers in Silicon Valley who make low six-figure salaries (i.e., $100K-$150K) and who don't own five or six figures worth of stock. I fall in this category. While we can afford to rent apartments in Silicon Valley, buying a house within an hour commute from Silicon Valley in a safe neighborhood is definitely a stretch goal for us. If I want to buy at my current salary, it's either a 2-bedroom condo in South San Jose or in Alameda County, or it's a long commute from exurbs such as Tracy and Hollister. Now, San Diego is much more affordable and would be a very appealing option for me since the housing prices are within reach, perhaps not in places like La Jolla, but in places a little further away like Oceanside and Escondido. I wouldn't mind relocating to either one of those places.
  - starlightfury 7y ago
    The Santa Cruz mountains would like a word with you. The very best of rural/non urban living, with <1 hour commute to the valley, and homes with acreage can be had in the 500-800k range
anovikov 7y ago
May i have to add one thing: don't you think that if the housing problem is solved (say by vastly liberalizing the zoning laws, permitting construction of a huge number of high-rise apartment buildings, and building appropriate public transport system to move all these people, and cracking down on cars), and Silicon Valley becomes a lot more affordable place to live in, it will stop working the way it does, because it will no longer be such an elite club it is now? Salaries will become lower because there will be too much supply, as dev people will flock in. Conversations will become a lot less interesting because S/N ratio will decrease. There will be less benefit from living in the Valley if you are one of the very best (if you make a salary in top 10% of the dev jobs, you are not concerned with the rents now, it is you who DRIVE the rents to where they are), and more benefit if you aren't so good. VC will also have a much higher pool of founders to pick from. Non-funded founders are poor, many can't go to the Valley now, they will. VCs will get picky, and deals will become worse for everyone. Valley will just get watered down.
- linguae 7y ago
  I think it ultimately boils down to what future does Silicon Valley want for itself. The Silicon Valley may be ideal for the top 10% of developers, who benefit from compensation that is high enough to be able to afford to live in central locations in Silicon Valley. But what about the remaining 90%? What about those who don't work for FAANGs, unicorns, or VC-funded high-growth startups? They will eventually have to leave as they won't be able to keep up with the ever-rising cost of living here, but will Silicon Valley still be an innovative place in their absence? Will those remaining in Silicon Valley want to strike it out on their own, or will they play it safe in order for them to afford their housing costs? Will pushing out the other 90% of developers led to missed opportunities by VCs, who may turn down an unconventional business idea that may turn out to be the next huge, lucrative industry? That's why I believe Silicon Valley should address its housing problems; its engine of innovation may be threatened if large amounts of engineers leave for cheaper places where they can afford to take risks and where they can afford to work for other types of companies.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  That seems like a very inefficient mechanism even if it holds true. The supply and demand should grow over time in an absolute sense. It brings to mind stack ranking's flaws of needlessly discarding talent and discouraging cooperation. As for salaries the point of Silicon Valley as a selling point is to try to pay for quality - a fixed housing SV would still be more expensive than generic office in a generic town or outsourcing to cheaper still.
rsj_hn 7y ago
I'm kind of in a similar position but have the option to work remote, so I will probably do it (although I haven't pulled the trigger). My takes on these issues, FWIW 1. specialized jobs. True, and you will miss out on some career options, as this is the center of the world for tech by far. But nowadays there are remote work possibilities in many areas and the lower cost of living as well as much lower taxes outside CA make up for higher salaries in the bay area (remote work jobs tend to pay a bit less). 2. "Diversity". Meh, you can find all the diversity/culture you need in any decently sized city. My closest friends have been from Eastern Europe/balkans and I find those guys wherever I go. Whatever you are into, you'll find it, but you just have to seek it out. It's like people who rave about being in a town with so many art galleries and symphonies, but they don't actually attend said galleries or symphonies. And most people can't tell the difference between the Santa Fe symphony and the SF Symphony, TBH. Sure, it's a step down, but you will get all the culture you need. In terms of tolerance, the bay area is not what I would call tolerant -- it's a pretty authoritarian place. Try wearing a MAGA hat to work and see how tolerant they are. I'm not talking about getting dirty looks, odds are good you will get physically assaulted. Having lived here for a while, I've seen the transition from a quirky place with a strong libertarian bent and that likes to experiment to one that is more of a monoculture constantly looking for something to be outraged about, and the overton window for what is tolerated is shrinking every day. Even a lot of the old style hippies which I used to hang out with have moved out, many heading to Portland or TX. Oddly, places like Palo Alto and Cupertino are much more tolerant of other worldviews. A good rule of thumb is that if you can find a neighborhood with a thriving pentecostal church, a presbyterian church, a catholic church, and a synagogue all in reasonable proximity, then you have truly discovered a place where there is diversity of opinions and worldviews. Also, if the state isn't deep blue or deep red, then there is some diversity of worldviews. Most people, however, only pretend to want that. What they want is to be surrounded by those who share their values, which is completely understandable. You can find that and lower cost of living in many places. 3. Don't overlook walkability and nice, old fashioned architecture. This is huge. It's the best thing San Francisco has going for it -- human scale architecture combined with density. That's the one thing you will miss the most. There are so many benefits from not needing a car, not only health benefits, but mental health benefits. Despite all the problems with homelessness in the city, which have gotten much worse over the years, there many nice walkable neighborhoods, as well as nice staircase hikes, viewspots. It's lovely. In terms of places to look at, there are lots of nice places that, in my opinion, would provide much higher standards of living. 1. Miami/beach places in Florida. 2. Small towns on the east coast, like Asheville, Charleston, Charlottesville. 3. Washington DC is underrated, but also expensive and there are crime issues. But not as pricey as SF. 4. Chicago has low cost of living if you can put up with the cold. Crime issues tend to be isolated to bad neighborhoods so the headlines aren't as bad. One thing to be aware of is the horrible state finances in Illinois -- high income people are going to be soaked, so caveat emptor. 5. Although NY is expensive, Long Island is relatively inexpensive still. 6. The entire desert southwest is awesome -- New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, are all gorgeous states with wonderful cities. Take a look at Flagstaff, Arizona. 7. New Hampshire is underrated, if you can take the cold. For walkability, which is key for me, one option is to find a small town -- those tend to be walkable. It needs to be not dead and close to a big town. Access to healthcare is a real issue in small towns, so you will end up driving to big towns to see your doctor.
nikanj 7y ago
1) Doesn't only apply to the high-paid professionals. All sorts of ancillary jobs do not pay $engineer money, but are still very tightly attached to the tech sector. Those professionals are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

mister_hn 7y ago

We need Bay Area salaries everywhere in the world and we will happy I guess

hw 7y ago
Not if the Bay Area cost of living (housing, gas, traffic, food) comes with it
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  You can't have bay area congestion unless you plan on importing another 100 million people.
- mister_hn 7y ago
  ok Bay Area salaries with Indian prices

break_the_bank 7y ago

People in the first category can probably afford to find a place to live in Silicon Valley / San Diego. Their salaries account for housing and housing prices account for their salaries.

linguae 7y ago
It depends on the companies these people work for, though. Someone who has worked for a company like Facebook or Google with large salaries and generous RSU grants will eventually be able to buy a house in Silicon Valley. The RSUs would be enough for a down payment, and their salaries are sufficiently high to cover the mortgage. Now, places like Cupertino and Sunnyvale may still be stretch goals because a house in those cities could exceed $2 million, but a $1 million house in Fremont, Milpitas, San Jose, or Redwood City is entirely in reach for people with that level of compensation. But not all tech companies in Silicon Valley pay Facebook/Google levels of compensation. There are plenty of engineers in Silicon Valley who make low six-figure salaries (i.e., $100K-$150K) and who don't own five or six figures worth of stock. I fall in this category. While we can afford to rent apartments in Silicon Valley, buying a house within an hour commute from Silicon Valley in a safe neighborhood is definitely a stretch goal for us. If I want to buy at my current salary, it's either a 2-bedroom condo in South San Jose or in Alameda County, or it's a long commute from exurbs such as Tracy and Hollister. Now, San Diego is much more affordable and would be a very appealing option for me since the housing prices are within reach, perhaps not in places like La Jolla, but in places a little further away like Oceanside and Escondido. I wouldn't mind relocating to either one of those places.
- starlightfury 7y ago
  The Santa Cruz mountains would like a word with you. The very best of rural/non urban living, with <1 hour commute to the valley, and homes with acreage can be had in the 500-800k range

anovikov 7y ago

May i have to add one thing: don't you think that if the housing problem is solved (say by vastly liberalizing the zoning laws, permitting construction of a huge number of high-rise apartment buildings, and building appropriate public transport system to move all these people, and cracking down on cars), and Silicon Valley becomes a lot more affordable place to live in, it will stop working the way it does, because it will no longer be such an elite club it is now? Salaries will become lower because there will be too much supply, as dev people will flock in. Conversations will become a lot less interesting because S/N ratio will decrease. There will be less benefit from living in the Valley if you are one of the very best (if you make a salary in top 10% of the dev jobs, you are not concerned with the rents now, it is you who DRIVE the rents to where they are), and more benefit if you aren't so good. VC will also have a much higher pool of founders to pick from. Non-funded founders are poor, many can't go to the Valley now, they will. VCs will get picky, and deals will become worse for everyone. Valley will just get watered down.

linguae 7y ago
I think it ultimately boils down to what future does Silicon Valley want for itself. The Silicon Valley may be ideal for the top 10% of developers, who benefit from compensation that is high enough to be able to afford to live in central locations in Silicon Valley. But what about the remaining 90%? What about those who don't work for FAANGs, unicorns, or VC-funded high-growth startups? They will eventually have to leave as they won't be able to keep up with the ever-rising cost of living here, but will Silicon Valley still be an innovative place in their absence? Will those remaining in Silicon Valley want to strike it out on their own, or will they play it safe in order for them to afford their housing costs? Will pushing out the other 90% of developers led to missed opportunities by VCs, who may turn down an unconventional business idea that may turn out to be the next huge, lucrative industry? That's why I believe Silicon Valley should address its housing problems; its engine of innovation may be threatened if large amounts of engineers leave for cheaper places where they can afford to take risks and where they can afford to work for other types of companies.
Nasrudith 7y ago
That seems like a very inefficient mechanism even if it holds true. The supply and demand should grow over time in an absolute sense. It brings to mind stack ranking's flaws of needlessly discarding talent and discouraging cooperation. As for salaries the point of Silicon Valley as a selling point is to try to pay for quality - a fixed housing SV would still be more expensive than generic office in a generic town or outsourcing to cheaper still.

rsj_hn 7y ago

I'm kind of in a similar position but have the option to work remote, so I will probably do it (although I haven't pulled the trigger). My takes on these issues, FWIW 1. specialized jobs. True, and you will miss out on some career options, as this is the center of the world for tech by far. But nowadays there are remote work possibilities in many areas and the lower cost of living as well as much lower taxes outside CA make up for higher salaries in the bay area (remote work jobs tend to pay a bit less). 2. "Diversity". Meh, you can find all the diversity/culture you need in any decently sized city. My closest friends have been from Eastern Europe/balkans and I find those guys wherever I go. Whatever you are into, you'll find it, but you just have to seek it out. It's like people who rave about being in a town with so many art galleries and symphonies, but they don't actually attend said galleries or symphonies. And most people can't tell the difference between the Santa Fe symphony and the SF Symphony, TBH. Sure, it's a step down, but you will get all the culture you need. In terms of tolerance, the bay area is not what I would call tolerant -- it's a pretty authoritarian place. Try wearing a MAGA hat to work and see how tolerant they are. I'm not talking about getting dirty looks, odds are good you will get physically assaulted. Having lived here for a while, I've seen the transition from a quirky place with a strong libertarian bent and that likes to experiment to one that is more of a monoculture constantly looking for something to be outraged about, and the overton window for what is tolerated is shrinking every day. Even a lot of the old style hippies which I used to hang out with have moved out, many heading to Portland or TX. Oddly, places like Palo Alto and Cupertino are much more tolerant of other worldviews. A good rule of thumb is that if you can find a neighborhood with a thriving pentecostal church, a presbyterian church, a catholic church, and a synagogue all in reasonable proximity, then you have truly discovered a place where there is diversity of opinions and worldviews. Also, if the state isn't deep blue or deep red, then there is some diversity of worldviews. Most people, however, only pretend to want that. What they want is to be surrounded by those who share their values, which is completely understandable. You can find that and lower cost of living in many places. 3. Don't overlook walkability and nice, old fashioned architecture. This is huge. It's the best thing San Francisco has going for it -- human scale architecture combined with density. That's the one thing you will miss the most. There are so many benefits from not needing a car, not only health benefits, but mental health benefits. Despite all the problems with homelessness in the city, which have gotten much worse over the years, there many nice walkable neighborhoods, as well as nice staircase hikes, viewspots. It's lovely. In terms of places to look at, there are lots of nice places that, in my opinion, would provide much higher standards of living. 1. Miami/beach places in Florida. 2. Small towns on the east coast, like Asheville, Charleston, Charlottesville. 3. Washington DC is underrated, but also expensive and there are crime issues. But not as pricey as SF. 4. Chicago has low cost of living if you can put up with the cold. Crime issues tend to be isolated to bad neighborhoods so the headlines aren't as bad. One thing to be aware of is the horrible state finances in Illinois -- high income people are going to be soaked, so caveat emptor. 5. Although NY is expensive, Long Island is relatively inexpensive still. 6. The entire desert southwest is awesome -- New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, are all gorgeous states with wonderful cities. Take a look at Flagstaff, Arizona. 7. New Hampshire is underrated, if you can take the cold. For walkability, which is key for me, one option is to find a small town -- those tend to be walkable. It needs to be not dead and close to a big town. Access to healthcare is a real issue in small towns, so you will end up driving to big towns to see your doctor.

nikanj 7y ago

1) Doesn't only apply to the high-paid professionals. All sorts of ancillary jobs do not pay $engineer money, but are still very tightly attached to the tech sector. Those professionals are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.