8 ms·

The fact that the word 'side-load' exists and is used with a straight face is part of the problem. Installing applications yourself is the default. It's all the

The fact that the word 'side-load' exists and is used with a straight face is part of the problem. Installing applications yourself is the default. It's all these walled gardens that are weird.

threeseed 7y ago
That is only because App Stores never used to exist. Now it is common to not to have a side-load option. And walled gardens aren't weird. It has always been the default. I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. Printer cartridges were even signed against the printer themselves. Companies have always tried to lock you down in some way.
- simion314 7y ago
  Consoles are very different, the hardware is subsidized by Sony where with Apple you pay a premium. Also consoles are more an entertainment device you use a few hours a day or just in weekends where smartphones are replacing general computers. Comparing a smartphone and a console is a big stretch
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Console manufacturers take a loss at the start but they start to make a profit as the components become less expensive. And a console is exactly what Apple has tried to emulate so of course it's relevant.
    - simion314 7y ago
      >And a console is exactly what Apple has tried to emulate so of course it's relevant. You could also say that Apple is emulating the printer manufacturers , some practices are similar but there are important differences.
  - babypuncher 7y ago
    Neither Xbox One nor Playstation 4 were sold at subsidized prices even at launch. That trend died with the 7th generation consoles.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  installing trough package manager has been the default on Linux for what, 20 years now? it was called installing from sources instead of side loading, but it wasn't the default, and it's something you can do anyway in both iPhone and Android and it takes more or less the same effort and knowledge. the outliers were dos and Windows, and even then it caused loads of issues so much they had y to add multiple layers of checks between signatures, uac, blacklists and defenders because average users cannot be trusted to manage their own systems
  - the8472 7y ago
    package managers let you add additional repositories with little hassle.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    With Linux package managers, you can easily add additional repos. And of course on Windows, Linux and MacOS, you can install whatever you like, from wherever you like. Android allows you to side-load apps (but I'd prefer if it made it much easier to do so), whereas iOS makes it both difficult and costly.
  - mrep 7y ago
    > it was called installing from sources instead of side loading, but it wasn't the default, and it's something you can do anyway in both iPhone and Android and it takes more or less the same effort and knowledge. Really, can you please explain how to install apps on an Iphone direct from the source for free permanently?
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      I didn't say free.
- the8472 7y ago
  > Printer cartridges were even signed against the printer themselves. Printer cartridges used to be dumb and replacable by mechanically identical 3rd party products. > And walled gardens aren't weird. It has always been the default. I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. Those are gaming devices, not general purpose edge computing devices under which smart-"phones" fall for all intents and purposes. Personal computers are a much better reference point.
  - spunker540 7y ago
    Personal computers are probably the only reference point in favor of “install anything you want”. Walkmans, TVs, game consoles, MP3 players, household appliances, automobiles, flip phones etc all come without the ability to run custom software. I think the only reason PCs didn’t start with an App Store model is that they predate the internet, so there was no way for them to really control distribution. Frankly I think there’s a reason why no more open model is succeeding — the demand is not there and the app stores provide the utility most people want. I used to jailbreak my iPhone but there’s really no need anymore.
    - noisem4ker 7y ago
      Many electronic devices simply lack the technical features or input channels that would allow third party software to run. I find it much more worrying when the devices have all the infrastructure in place to do so, but their manufacturer decides to actively restrict the users' freedom in that regard.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. That's an argument against consoles, not in favor of walled gardens.
mattmar96 7y ago
My thought exactly
jarjoura 7y ago
There has never been a mobile platform that allowed desktop level freedom to install whatever you wanted. That has more to do with mobile carriers demanding it than the platform companies. Android has been the most open, but even then, the more carriers they supported, the more locked down the device became. I have no sympathy for the ruthlessness of Apple and its dictatorship about no app can have its own App Store like functionality, but it's also disingenuous to put all the blame on them for where we are today.
- andreibosco 7y ago
  "There has never been a mobile platform that allowed desktop level freedom to install whatever you wanted." -- You mean like the old Palm and Nokia Symbian allowed us to do?
  - jarjoura 7y ago
    If I remember correctly, 99% sure anything sold from Cingular & Bell Atlantic came super locked down and you had to go through their SMS service to download the PRC files. You could enable developer mode by installing some app called HotSync, but then you had to find the software online to sync and those weren't easy to do.
    - daxelrod 7y ago
      I had a Treo from Cingular, it had absolutely no restrictions on installing programs. The preferred way to do so was generally by HotSyncing them from a desktop, but that wasn't any sort of developer mode, it was just how things were designed to work in the ecosystem (you wouldn't want to wait for the download over the air anyway). There were a ton of aggregator sites for software with reviews, or you could just search the web for it, it was pretty easy.
    - TheKarateKid 7y ago
      All of Verizon’s phones were locked down with their BREW OS and proprietary VCAST App Store. Even doing something as simple as loading your own ringtones required heavy workarounds and sometimes third party software.
Zak 7y ago
As a long-time desktop Linux user, I don't quite agree with this. The default for me long before iOS existed was to install software from my distribution's repository. Sideloading software not included in the repository was often a technically onerous process, to be repeated manually in case of updates. I had pity for users of Mac OS and Windows who had no access to such convenience. I don't think having a managed system for installing software is a bad thing at all, though I'm disappointed the big ones don't support third-party repositories. I do think there should always be an option to do it manually.
- walrus01 7y ago
  yes, but the difference is how high that wall is on the garden. Using an ubuntu/debian type apt based system as an example, it's quite easy and fast to 'trust' a GPG signing key for a new repository and add it if needed.
- kop316 7y ago
  However, the repository was for convenience. Nothing stops you from adding a new repository to install new apps. You simple have no choice with iOS on that front.
  - Zak 7y ago
    You have some choice on Android though, through both sideloading and using third-party app stores like F-droid. I have a problem with iOS not allowing sideloading in a way that's viable for most applications, but I don't see having a default, managed system for installing software as a problem in itself.
    - kop316 7y ago
      Ohh I agree with Android. I just use AOSP and f-droid, and it works great
- bradknowles 7y ago
  There is another choice for iOS -- register as a developer, and build and install the software yourself. There's even a third party that is automating much of this process, because this is a hole that Apple will have a hard time closing. The AltStore does not require a jailbreak: https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios-app-store/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios...
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
It was really weird when Windows tried to start using 'sideloading' as a term when pushing UWP. As if the standard method of installing software on Windows hadn't always been to run an installer file on it. The term is still in use on the Developer options of Settings where you can decide if UWP apps can be installed outside of the Microsoft Store, though I believe they've backed off drastically, so the default is to 'allow sideloading'.
Angostura 7y ago
Its not that weird. Don't forget when iPhone launched, you couldn't load any applications at all. It was all going to be web apps. "It's a phone, an appliance - not a computer". The majority of people are quite happy with having their phones as a 'it just works, its relatively secure, it doesn't crash all the time or run out of battery' thing.
- mikenew 7y ago
  And those perfectly happy people could continue to install apps via the app store without ever even thinking about the fact that some people install apps that aren't explicitly approved by Apple. And when you start getting into issues of free speech and people fighting for their rights against an oppressive government, it starts to feel like people other than the big happy majority matter quite a bit.
unethical_ban 7y ago
I completely disagree. The walled garden has done far more good than harm, in practice. I like the ability to sideload, as I have needed to do on Android on several occasions. Remember the technical skill level of the audience - you are not their target. Some level of curation is beneficial. Opting out of the curation should be essential. Buy Android. (or some obscure non-duopoly platform)
Terretta 7y ago
1. For most of the time you could hold a thing to your head and talk into it, “installing” apps was not a default. Depends whether you think the handheld thing is an appliance instead of a processing unit. We only started complaining about limits on installing apps on phones relatively recently in the life of phones and even smartphones. We still mostly don’t complain about watches, but within a decade we will. 2. iPhone, Palm, others in late 2000s, attempted to kickstart an open app ecosystem where you could save HTML5 apps to your home screen that worked offline and with no marketplace. All kinds of apps proliferated briefly, I even had a PacMan clone. Those apps still work, and much more is now exposed through APIs than used to be. Free distribution remains a viable option for most types of apps. Especially for those developers that are just fine with things like Electron as a platform. Had developers embraced this and pushed the limits, the ecosystem might have tilted very differently. It might still be possible given enough adoption to warrant platform investment.
anovikov 7y ago
We have been using Windows which is full of trojans, viruses and malware of all sorts, as well as slowed down by the absolutely necessary antiviruses, who are in a way viruses themselves, and don't properly help anyway. I'd much rather stick with a walled garden.

The fact that the word 'side-load' exists and is used with a straight face is part of the problem. Installing applications yourself is the default. It's all these walled gardens that are weird.

threeseed 7y ago

That is only because App Stores never used to exist. Now it is common to not to have a side-load option. And walled gardens aren't weird. It has always been the default. I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. Printer cartridges were even signed against the printer themselves. Companies have always tried to lock you down in some way.

simion314 7y ago
Consoles are very different, the hardware is subsidized by Sony where with Apple you pay a premium. Also consoles are more an entertainment device you use a few hours a day or just in weekends where smartphones are replacing general computers. Comparing a smartphone and a console is a big stretch
- threeseed 7y ago
  Console manufacturers take a loss at the start but they start to make a profit as the components become less expensive. And a console is exactly what Apple has tried to emulate so of course it's relevant.
  - simion314 7y ago
    >And a console is exactly what Apple has tried to emulate so of course it's relevant. You could also say that Apple is emulating the printer manufacturers , some practices are similar but there are important differences.
- babypuncher 7y ago
  Neither Xbox One nor Playstation 4 were sold at subsidized prices even at launch. That trend died with the 7th generation consoles.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
installing trough package manager has been the default on Linux for what, 20 years now? it was called installing from sources instead of side loading, but it wasn't the default, and it's something you can do anyway in both iPhone and Android and it takes more or less the same effort and knowledge. the outliers were dos and Windows, and even then it caused loads of issues so much they had y to add multiple layers of checks between signatures, uac, blacklists and defenders because average users cannot be trusted to manage their own systems
- the8472 7y ago
  package managers let you add additional repositories with little hassle.
- GordonS 7y ago
  With Linux package managers, you can easily add additional repos. And of course on Windows, Linux and MacOS, you can install whatever you like, from wherever you like. Android allows you to side-load apps (but I'd prefer if it made it much easier to do so), whereas iOS makes it both difficult and costly.
- mrep 7y ago
  > it was called installing from sources instead of side loading, but it wasn't the default, and it's something you can do anyway in both iPhone and Android and it takes more or less the same effort and knowledge. Really, can you please explain how to install apps on an Iphone direct from the source for free permanently?
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    I didn't say free.
the8472 7y ago
> Printer cartridges were even signed against the printer themselves. Printer cartridges used to be dumb and replacable by mechanically identical 3rd party products. > And walled gardens aren't weird. It has always been the default. I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. Those are gaming devices, not general purpose edge computing devices under which smart-"phones" fall for all intents and purposes. Personal computers are a much better reference point.
- spunker540 7y ago
  Personal computers are probably the only reference point in favor of “install anything you want”. Walkmans, TVs, game consoles, MP3 players, household appliances, automobiles, flip phones etc all come without the ability to run custom software. I think the only reason PCs didn’t start with an App Store model is that they predate the internet, so there was no way for them to really control distribution. Frankly I think there’s a reason why no more open model is succeeding — the demand is not there and the app stores provide the utility most people want. I used to jailbreak my iPhone but there’s really no need anymore.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
    Many electronic devices simply lack the technical features or input channels that would allow third party software to run. I find it much more worrying when the devices have all the infrastructure in place to do so, but their manufacturer decides to actively restrict the users' freedom in that regard.
anoncake 7y ago
> I can only install console games approved by Sony, Nintendo etc for example. That's an argument against consoles, not in favor of walled gardens.

mattmar96 7y ago

My thought exactly

jarjoura 7y ago

There has never been a mobile platform that allowed desktop level freedom to install whatever you wanted. That has more to do with mobile carriers demanding it than the platform companies. Android has been the most open, but even then, the more carriers they supported, the more locked down the device became. I have no sympathy for the ruthlessness of Apple and its dictatorship about no app can have its own App Store like functionality, but it's also disingenuous to put all the blame on them for where we are today.

andreibosco 7y ago
"There has never been a mobile platform that allowed desktop level freedom to install whatever you wanted." -- You mean like the old Palm and Nokia Symbian allowed us to do?
- jarjoura 7y ago
  If I remember correctly, 99% sure anything sold from Cingular & Bell Atlantic came super locked down and you had to go through their SMS service to download the PRC files. You could enable developer mode by installing some app called HotSync, but then you had to find the software online to sync and those weren't easy to do.
  - daxelrod 7y ago
    I had a Treo from Cingular, it had absolutely no restrictions on installing programs. The preferred way to do so was generally by HotSyncing them from a desktop, but that wasn't any sort of developer mode, it was just how things were designed to work in the ecosystem (you wouldn't want to wait for the download over the air anyway). There were a ton of aggregator sites for software with reviews, or you could just search the web for it, it was pretty easy.
  - TheKarateKid 7y ago
    All of Verizon’s phones were locked down with their BREW OS and proprietary VCAST App Store. Even doing something as simple as loading your own ringtones required heavy workarounds and sometimes third party software.

Zak 7y ago

As a long-time desktop Linux user, I don't quite agree with this. The default for me long before iOS existed was to install software from my distribution's repository. Sideloading software not included in the repository was often a technically onerous process, to be repeated manually in case of updates. I had pity for users of Mac OS and Windows who had no access to such convenience. I don't think having a managed system for installing software is a bad thing at all, though I'm disappointed the big ones don't support third-party repositories. I do think there should always be an option to do it manually.

walrus01 7y ago
yes, but the difference is how high that wall is on the garden. Using an ubuntu/debian type apt based system as an example, it's quite easy and fast to 'trust' a GPG signing key for a new repository and add it if needed.
kop316 7y ago
However, the repository was for convenience. Nothing stops you from adding a new repository to install new apps. You simple have no choice with iOS on that front.
- Zak 7y ago
  You have some choice on Android though, through both sideloading and using third-party app stores like F-droid. I have a problem with iOS not allowing sideloading in a way that's viable for most applications, but I don't see having a default, managed system for installing software as a problem in itself.
  - kop316 7y ago
    Ohh I agree with Android. I just use AOSP and f-droid, and it works great
bradknowles 7y ago
There is another choice for iOS -- register as a developer, and build and install the software yourself. There's even a third party that is automating much of this process, because this is a hole that Apple will have a hard time closing. The AltStore does not require a jailbreak: https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios-app-store/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios...

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

It was really weird when Windows tried to start using 'sideloading' as a term when pushing UWP. As if the standard method of installing software on Windows hadn't always been to run an installer file on it. The term is still in use on the Developer options of Settings where you can decide if UWP apps can be installed outside of the Microsoft Store, though I believe they've backed off drastically, so the default is to 'allow sideloading'.

Angostura 7y ago

Its not that weird. Don't forget when iPhone launched, you couldn't load any applications at all. It was all going to be web apps. "It's a phone, an appliance - not a computer". The majority of people are quite happy with having their phones as a 'it just works, its relatively secure, it doesn't crash all the time or run out of battery' thing.

mikenew 7y ago
And those perfectly happy people could continue to install apps via the app store without ever even thinking about the fact that some people install apps that aren't explicitly approved by Apple. And when you start getting into issues of free speech and people fighting for their rights against an oppressive government, it starts to feel like people other than the big happy majority matter quite a bit.

unethical_ban 7y ago

I completely disagree. The walled garden has done far more good than harm, in practice. I like the ability to sideload, as I have needed to do on Android on several occasions. Remember the technical skill level of the audience - you are not their target. Some level of curation is beneficial. Opting out of the curation should be essential. Buy Android. (or some obscure non-duopoly platform)

Terretta 7y ago

1. For most of the time you could hold a thing to your head and talk into it, “installing” apps was not a default. Depends whether you think the handheld thing is an appliance instead of a processing unit. We only started complaining about limits on installing apps on phones relatively recently in the life of phones and even smartphones. We still mostly don’t complain about watches, but within a decade we will. 2. iPhone, Palm, others in late 2000s, attempted to kickstart an open app ecosystem where you could save HTML5 apps to your home screen that worked offline and with no marketplace. All kinds of apps proliferated briefly, I even had a PacMan clone. Those apps still work, and much more is now exposed through APIs than used to be. Free distribution remains a viable option for most types of apps. Especially for those developers that are just fine with things like Electron as a platform. Had developers embraced this and pushed the limits, the ecosystem might have tilted very differently. It might still be possible given enough adoption to warrant platform investment.

anovikov 7y ago

We have been using Windows which is full of trojans, viruses and malware of all sorts, as well as slowed down by the absolutely necessary antiviruses, who are in a way viruses themselves, and don't properly help anyway. I'd much rather stick with a walled garden.