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On my last job, a new manager called me for a meeting on Friday 4PM. I spent the whole month on an extremely stressful project. The meeting was about an app th

On my last job, a new manager called me for a meeting on Friday 4PM. I spent the whole month on an extremely stressful project. The meeting was about an app that integrates credit card payments, billets and bank account on a terminal that is going to be available to the general public. The deadline? 11PM of the same day. Final version. From 0 to 100% in 6 hours. I said that it was impossible. He said that I was incapable. I remember coming back home with a feeling that I was incompetent, even with my 11 years of experience with JavaScript. I didn't sleep that night, trying to build it even with delay. Saturday morning I had a burnout. I was afraid to lose my job because I sustain my family. I thought throwing myself from my apartment window. That was one of the worst days in my life. I got fired on Monday morning. Got another job on the same day. Almost twice the salary.I told them that I need a little time to cleanup my mind and they gave 2 weeks to recover from that situation. I'm happy now.

sAbakumoff 7y ago
what kind of company takes 1 morning to fire an employee? that does not sound realistic.
- rovr138 7y ago
  Maybe they needed or wanted a reason to fire them. If that’s the case, it was all ready to go on HR.
  - sAbakumoff 7y ago
    I mean it only happens in movies when an employee gets fired and immediately put his stuff in the box and leaves the building. In real life there are labor regulations that don't allow this, there is the notification period et cetera
    - hef19898 7y ago
      Depends. Even in Germany the company can simply decide to get you physically out right now as long as they keep you on the pay roll for the legal notice period.
    - squeaky-clean 7y ago
      I saw this go down right in front of me once. She technically still worked for us for 2 weeks I believe, but I saw HR approach her, bring her out of the room for a few minutes, then she came back and started quietly packing things into a box, and left within the hour. I don't know the full details, I think she did have some kind of warning weeks before, but ignored it because she thought she was immune to being fired. She was the worst developer I've ever worked with so far though, personality-wise and skills, she definitely lied in her PHP interview. That's also on that company though, I have no idea how she passed that interview (okay, I do have an idea, no programmers ever spoke with her).
    - sciurus 7y ago
      That's simply not correct, at least in the US. The process I've seen is the employee is taken to a meeting room, they're told they've being let go, they're walked to their desk to retrieve their personal belongings, and they're walked out the door. From the employees perspective one minute they're working like normal, and perhaps a half-hour later they're standing outside unemployed.
      - rovr138 7y ago
        I’ve seen this before. Get an email the day before to deactivates someone’s access at X time. Next day they get called into a meeting 10 mins before X and then escorted to their desk and out a couple mins after.
        sciurus 7y ago
        I've had similar experiences, where I'm told in the morning to be available to handle an account deactivation immediately at X time, and then at X time I'm given the name. What really sucks is when you have to do it for one of your teammates. :-(
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > I mean it only happens in movies when an employee gets fired and immediately put his stuff in the box and leaves the building. It's not only in the movies. I've seen it done in real life a number of times. In the US, anyway, this isn't prohibited by law.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    I doubt that firing on such a short notice properly followed the correct procedures, in the UK that's an automatic loss at tribuneral.
mjrbrennan 7y ago
What an absolute joke. I suppose that just meant the new manager wanted you gone. Glad you got out of there and into a better place.
davedx 7y ago
Sorry to hear you went through that and glad to hear you made it through. Wish you all the best.
loxs 7y ago
One of my goals in life is to never be susceptible to this kind of situation (been there some years ago). So far I manage to have as big a financial buffer as needed to be able to quit instantly in that situation without batting an eye. Indeed I never hide my ability to do so and I try to make very clear the things "I won't do" at any gig I take. Either before I start or very early in the process. At my current job it is "I won't program in a language without both types and IDE". Because of this I only work on the parts that are in TypeScript and the the JS, Ruby and Python parts are other people's problems. I may seem like an asshole, but so far it works. Almost a year later I haven't been fired. And they seem happy about my work. And I am definitely not near burnout. Stark contrast with the older days.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  You don’t to me, I spent the last 4 months saving every penny to so that I had 7mths runway in the bank as I was approaching the inevitable “fuck this point”. I accepted an offer for a new job yesterday and so I won’t need that buffer but I’m keeping it, ISA’s and pensions are all good but I didn’t leave myself enough readily accessible cash to just say fuck it and walk if I needed to.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Smart person. Now don't stop saving and increase your runway even further. The difference between having a few years worth in the bank and not is incredible.
    - noir_lord 7y ago
      New offer comes with a big salary increase (and me and my partner are saving for a house) so I'm going to be able to save about 70% of my salary after all outgoings - outside of work my goal now is to max out ISA's and then save the rest until I have enough to cover at least 2 years - I noticed there is a peace that comes from having immediate access to enough money to quit (even if you have no intention).
- virgilp 7y ago
Leherenn 7y ago
Happy for you it turned out well, but the whole story is quite weird. It's obviously impossible and the timing is awful, so it has to be voluntary and there's something behind it. Did he need a reason to fire you? But that seems like a really bad reason that could backfire in a court.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  There was no internal grievance procedure you could have used.
- code-the-stars 7y ago
  Court? You must not live in the US. We got rid of any wisp of legal protection from job termination years ago... It has a catchy name invented by the lobbyists that wrote the laws... “Right to Work”
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    The only part of job termination covered by "right to work" laws is that one cannot be fired for refusing to join a union.
  - anomaloustho 7y ago
    I think the only legal protection you get from the US government is on the basis of race/religion and what not, as well as some of the original Union terms like 40 hour work week and overtime. Right to Work has to do with whether you are forced to join a union or not. And if not, then don’t get the supplementary legal protections of whatever is in the union’s agreement. You become “fire at will” not because the law says so, but because you are not in a union. On the other hand, most unions will still protect nonunion workers. I’ve never really heard of programmer unions though. Would be curious.
  - Leherenn 7y ago
    My thought was that if there was a need for a reason to fire him, maybe he was in a place where there are some legal protections. Usually if you are in a place where you can't be fired at will, firing you for a bad reason is something you can fight in the courts. If you can be fired at will, why even bother going through the whole thing in the first place, just fire him.
halfer53 7y ago
This is one of the reason I hate about PIP( performance improvement program). They set ridiculous goals for you in very short amount of time that nobody can possibly complete, then fire you on grounds of incompetence. A friend of mine who works in Facebook told me that an employee committed suicide due to the pressure of PIP. I suspect that guy was put into PIP due to poor rating (meet most), then was given a ridiculous task which is impossible to complete. That guy was stressed out and that eventually lead to depression and suicide. RIP
- tallanvor 7y ago
  I can't speak for Facebook, but I know that in some companies, it really is possible for individual contributers to successfully complete a PIP. I've known at least 3 coworkers at my workplace who have been put on PIPs. They were given realistic expectations that didn't require them to work 50+ hours per week, and they completed the plans successfully. Of course, a manager who's put on a plan is generally gone in a few months, or they're allowed to step down into an individual contributor role.
  - guitarbill 7y ago
    that just seems weird though. for it to get to the point of a PIP being necessary, a lot has had to gone wrong until then. feels like it's a blunt instrument, used when usual communication has almost broken down. are expectations not normally discussed more informally in regular 1:1s already? i do know people who have successfully completed PIPs and stayed. but every person who's taken the PIP as a signal to look for another position has done better in their careers and been happier than those who stayed. i get not everybody is in that position, but even if the PIP itself is reasonable, being PIP'd is not. it's a symptom of an underlying issue of poor management and should be interpreted as such.
    - bartread 7y ago
      > but even if the PIP itself is reasonable, being PIP'd is not. it's a symptom of an underlying issue of poor management and should be interpreted as such. That's a very broad statement but, whilst the sentiment is no doubt well-intentioned, it's also misguided. Sometimes no matter how much feedback you give, how directly you express it, or how many ways you say the same thing in your weekly 1:1s it just doesn't get through. Occasionally people don't get it. Occasionally they don't want to hear it. Whatever the reason, you're not seeing the results you need, and whilst performance issues are often a result of some mitigating circumstance (divorce, bereavement, illness, and many others), sometimes they're not. At that point a PIP may be entirely reasonable, whether it looks that way to the employee or not. This is especially the case if the employee's behaviour, performance, and/or attitude is having a detrimental effect on the rest of their team. Unfortunately, it often is. Contrary to what you've said, a strong indicator of poor management is a failure to effectively manage performance, and to develop and maintain high performing teams. Managers are held to account on their effectiveness in delivering against company goals. Effective managers sometimes have to work with an employee to correct performance issues. Sometimes the needed improvement doesn't occur. As cold-blooded as it sounds, this will probably lead to that employee being shown the door. I'm not for a moment suggesting that every manager who uses PIPs is automatically right or some kind of enlightenened management genius. Like any tool, they can be used ineffectively or inappropriately. But if they're never used at all that's as big a red flag as if they're used too much.
mihaaly 7y ago
The world is filled with incompetent managers who have no clue about the requirements or conditions and are afraid to ask, they play authority card or even intimidate instead. Very dumb. I feel unlucky never being fired and leaving 4 out of 5 cases because of bad management (poor task allocation, inadequate yet wasted resources, focus on appearances instead of essence both in steering and execution, poor communication or attitude, misuse of authority - including not using authority where necessary). I almost wish of having a (real, not induced!) feeling of incompetency, the feeling of the need to improve, instead of the feeling of wasting my time at work.
gigatexal 7y ago
Good God, what a terrible situation but an even better outcome. So glad you didn't take your life.
nwatson 7y ago
Nossa senhora! Parabéns pelo novo trabalho! ... que fique tudo tranquilo.
d--b 7y ago
Next time this happens to you, write down minutes of the meeting and send the doc to the guy asking to confirm that this is what they ask. When they fire you on Monday, sue.
- bot1 7y ago
  Is this actually possible?
  - megablast 7y ago
    Yes, sending an email is very easy these days.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Shades of Leslie Nielsen.
    - bot1 7y ago
      Thanks for enlightening me on the technologies of the 21st century. Maybe I meant if it‘s actually possible/makes sense to sue him because of an impossible deadline? Who knows
      - methehack 7y ago
        To answer your question (sort of): in my state it is not possible. It is state by state; my state is "at will" employment. This means, in my state, you can be fired just because. Employers in my state can't violate federal law of course -- they can't discriminate etc -- but they can fire you because "you're just not good enough" with no details or documentation. That said, it is likely CA has it's own set of protections that make it harder to do. Usually, it's the company's internal policies that require a PIP and all the documentation even in an "at will" state. This is to maintain the appearance of fairness and to avoid the possibility of employment litigation (companies of course often operate in many states and federal law is always a concern). If you document, you avoid all this. The firing though is usually a _fait accompli_; the PIP is CYA.
cwkoss 7y ago
Yikes. You should send his boss/ceo/investors a spite email telling the story about how he lost a worker who was working for 1/2 market rate by setting impossible deadlines.
- ckastner 7y ago
  > You should send his boss/ceo/investors a spite email That is a horrendously bad suggestion.
  - mcv 7y ago
    A spite email sounds like a bad idea, but this manager sounds very harmful to the company, and the boss/ceo/investors might want to be aware of that.
    - GonzaloQuero 7y ago
      And why would he care anymore about it? The company failed him, so why would he be helpful for them anymore? He did his job, he moved on, whatever happens there should not be expected to be his problem anymore.
      - Fnoord 7y ago
        To help other people who end up at said manager/job.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        That manager is toxic and should be reprimanded and/or fired. The employee certainly has no ethical obligation to do them any favors, but it could prevent that manager from abusing current and future workers in this way. This is a situation where the interests of the workers aligns with the business's ability to succeed. Why not leverage that to try to improve working conditions there? Seems like a win-win for everyone but the toxic manager.
      - mcv 7y ago
        Because if the CEO is smart, they'll fire that manager before he does any more damage to the company, and maybe hire the developer back.
rovr138 7y ago
Glad you got out and best of luck!
ivanhoe 7y ago
Dirty HR tricks when they want you out of there, but have to justify it legally. Funny thing is that you could probably still win them in court as any expert would confirm that task was unrealistic, so it's such a bureaucratic nonsense...
mcv 7y ago
That is just awful. I'm glad you got out and got something better. When someone tells you to do something that's both impossible and utterly unreasonable, just stick to telling them it's impossible. If he tells you you're incapable, tell him he needs to use a realistic planning for these things, and if he can't do that, then he's incapable. There's no angle from which this is even remotely acceptable. Even more so because it involves financial transactions: writing anything related to that in such a hurry is a recipe for disaster. This manager needs to be fired hard, or he's going to bring that company down.
- dheera 7y ago
  This. Also separately I really wish there were better legal courses for situations like that. Forcing someone to forgo their personal plans on a Friday night and suddenly work on moment's notice should be considered unethical and inhumane, and wrecks society, peoples' mental health, childrens' well-being, and much more. The need for overtime work should be communicated in advance, or there should be an explicit, voluntary, paid on-call rotation for things that occasionally need immediate attention, and on-call should be limited to things that break and need fixing, not things that need to be built.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - fragmede 7y ago
    "No." is a perfectly reasonable response as well, especially since in this case, GP was fired on Monday anyway. All relationships need healthy boundaries, in this case, their relationship with work, and work's relationship with them, is unhealthy. If online research about healthy boundaries isn't enough, I recommend seeking a professional's advice (like a licensed therapist or psychologist).
    - ianai 7y ago
      No psychologist is going to right wrongs that need to be addressed through legislation. Rights have been stripped from individuals and workers. We need a massive redressing of the “corporate” world. Workers rights matter. We’ve got companies that are too big to fail being bailed out by the government meanwhile companies can schedule you for just under the minimum requiring benefits but still take up as much or more of a commitment as a full time position.
russ519 7y ago
Thank you for this! I'm about to go through a forced job transition and this has helped me feel a little more hopefully that it will all work out, possibly for the better. Glad to hear you're happy now!
foxhop 7y ago
I'm so happy to hear you found a better path forward. If anyone is feeling burnout for doing impossible or hero work, please remember your job is _not_ your life. You can escape the toxic situation. Do not be some other man's squirrel.
edraferi 7y ago
BTW that was probably an illegal act by your employer. They gave you a clearly impossible task then fired you when you couldn’t complete it. That’s unreasonable. You might want to contact an employment attorney in your state for a consultation. Your state Bar association can give you a referral and probably a free consultation. They will be particularly interested if this was the culmination of a pattern of bullying behavior (consequences vary by State) or if there’s some kind of protected class involved (eg you are over 40 and the manager wants a younger team). It might seem like an unnecessary hassle, but legal action can help your remaining colleagues and possibly put some money in your pocket.
- ufmace 7y ago
  I believe that this sort of thing usually isn't worth the trouble. Acts of revenge are rarely really satisfying. Just find a new job at a better-run place. Then email all of your old colleagues about how much better the new place is - maybe you can recruit some of them and get a bonus for that too.
  - technologic 7y ago
    way strong, this one's long game is
- webinar 7y ago
  For at-will employment, employers can legally fire employees for unreasonable reasons, including unrealistic expectations of work performance.
sbfeibish 7y ago
"I thought throwing myself from my apartment window." You got it backwards. You think of throwing your manager out the apartment window.
- mbarronj 7y ago
  The best Defenestration is a good Offenestration
  - reifnir 7y ago
    Stealing that!
- mburns 7y ago
  >If you are wise, however, this is precisely what you will avoid doing because the average Vogon will not think twice before doing something so pointlessly hideous to you that you will wish you had never been born—or (if you are a clearer minded thinker) that the Vogon had never been born. — Douglas Adams, H2G2
- jbattle 7y ago
  My aunt had a terrible job in an office building downtown Chicago. One of those jobs where the boss was a maniac and made them work crunch time month after month. Across the street from her building is a ~10 story jail with an exercise yard on the very top. My aunt said she used to fantasize about how if she could throw her boss out the window, they'd put her in jail and at least she could go outside sometimes.
  - brianwawok 7y ago
    And right across the street from that jail, were jail tacos. The first place you would go when released from jail. I miss jail tacos. (Here is a picture of the basketball court on top of a 10+ story jail, very weird fixture of the Chicago loop: https://www.google.com/maps/search/corrections/@41.8764071,-87.63063,151m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/search/corrections/@41.8764071,-... )
gwbas1c 7y ago
If I was in that situation, I'd do some form of: What do you want by 11PM? A design? Really, you want the whole thing completed? Is this some kind of a joke? (Depending on relationship) Walk out the door without saying a word, "I quit," or even better, just stand up and say, "Everyone who thinks this is absurd walk out the door with me right now." Why: What I've learned is that employees ignoring an unreasonable boss sends a rapid signal to upper management to get rid of the unreasonable boss.
- kabdib 7y ago
  You lose benefits and the possibility of taking legal action against the (former) employer if you quit. Even in "at will" employment states you can sue for unlawful termination.
  - mrkstu 7y ago
    In this situation it would add up to 'constructive dismissal' so he wouldn't necessarily lose any rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bmaupin 7y ago
Sounds a lot like at-will employment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)
- analog31 7y ago
  A shady personnel manager at a former job explained the difference to me: If someone is terminated as an "at will" employee, they can collect unemployment and possibly other benefits as well such as severance. If they are terminated "with cause," no benefits. I have never seen a PIP, but it may require you to sign away your rights as an "at will" employee.
arnonejoe 7y ago
you should have quit on the spot.
jszymborski 7y ago
I'm sorry about the stress you must have been under. I am, however, looking forward to the absolute crud an org like that will have to eat when they have managers like that. No org can last long with such levels of incompetence... Chapman's In Search of Stupidity is a chronicling of that.
scoutt 7y ago
Not implying anything, but perhaps they wanted to fire you or wanted you to resign for whatever reason (including those that have nothing to do with you personally).
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
I am very glad you managed to parlay a bad situation into a better one. Fuck incompetent management. It is a virus that eventually ravages the entire host (organization).
bsg75 7y ago
> The meeting was about an app that integrates credit card payments, billets and bank account on a terminal that is going to be available to the general public. > > The deadline? 11PM of the same day. Final version. From 0 to 100% in 6 hours. That is not only impossible, it is reckless. A good way to lose not only money when things break, but get your access to credit cards and bank transactions eliminated when they learn their procedures were not covered.
jkoudys 7y ago
It's amazing how much overlap there is between jobs where they treat you poorly, and where they don't pay you enough. You'd think it would be the opposite, but it's all part of them not valuing you.
- dpc_pw 7y ago
  Poor pay is often a result of a downward spiral of dysfunctional/failing organization. Your manager gets paid poorly, your coworkers, other teams. Best people leave first and new good people don't want to join. Demotivated teams lacking any talent produce bad product. Poor product looses customers, which forces management into freezing/cutting salaries. Everything compounds. After certain threshold there is no way back, but it is surprising how long can organizations with no hope stick around, and just keep people miserable.
  - zubairq 7y ago
    I wish I could +1000 this... so true that poor pay is a result of a downward spiral!
  - jkoudys 7y ago
    Interesting how it's easier to have talented people eat microwave ramen for a year while you're energized building something new. Once the salaries go up, then drop, you start to spiral down the drain.
    - mitchdoogle 7y ago
      Isn't the "building something new" job somewhat of a gamble though? To get in on the ground floor of something big for a bigger payday down the line? The same can't be said for a struggling company cutting salaries.
zerogvt 7y ago
Kudos for landing a better job. I guess you were quite young at the time and I hope you matured more than to put yourself in such a harmful situation again. If you deem that something is senseless, impossible or on the verge of abusing you must say so and stand your ground. It is the right thing to do not just for you but for your coworkers and the larger ecosystem you are moving about. It's what that general said about 'The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept' only this time it was about the standard you put up with. All the best
mgh2 7y ago
Sounds to me like constructive dismissal
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
The problem is. People think that when you don't live up to unrealistic expectations that it's their own fault, when really it's just egregriously poor management. In my experience, whenevever someone isn't meeting expectations, it means 95% of the time the problem is the manager. the solution as you found, is to leave and find somewhere else that values your hard work.
philip1209 7y ago
That's so stressful. We've asked every new hire to take a week of PTO during their first month. I wish more places did that - you need time to adjust while switching jobs. But, you're typically stressed while looking for a new job, so you can't really relax until you have a new job and steady income + benefits again.
mitchdoogle 7y ago
Is it possible they wanted to fire you anyway and gave a task to you that they knew was impossible so that there would be a reason for it?
quickthrower2 7y ago
The great thing about being given 6 hours to do a 6 week job is that you know it's impossible. So you say "I'm going to need to work from home". Then off you go to the beach. Or a job interview. Pull a Paula [1]. Then come back and say "Oh it's waiting for app store approval". [1] http://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_brillant_paula_bean http://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_brillant_paula_bean
winrid 7y ago
I guess they wanted a reason to fire you? Regarding twice the salary - seems like you got as much respect as pay. That's usually how it goes.... :(
brooklynwin 7y ago
Absolutely insane you had to go through this, but happy to see that you're happier now.

sAbakumoff 7y ago

what kind of company takes 1 morning to fire an employee? that does not sound realistic.

rovr138 7y ago
Maybe they needed or wanted a reason to fire them. If that’s the case, it was all ready to go on HR.
- sAbakumoff 7y ago
  I mean it only happens in movies when an employee gets fired and immediately put his stuff in the box and leaves the building. In real life there are labor regulations that don't allow this, there is the notification period et cetera
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Depends. Even in Germany the company can simply decide to get you physically out right now as long as they keep you on the pay roll for the legal notice period.
  - squeaky-clean 7y ago
    I saw this go down right in front of me once. She technically still worked for us for 2 weeks I believe, but I saw HR approach her, bring her out of the room for a few minutes, then she came back and started quietly packing things into a box, and left within the hour. I don't know the full details, I think she did have some kind of warning weeks before, but ignored it because she thought she was immune to being fired. She was the worst developer I've ever worked with so far though, personality-wise and skills, she definitely lied in her PHP interview. That's also on that company though, I have no idea how she passed that interview (okay, I do have an idea, no programmers ever spoke with her).
  - sciurus 7y ago
    That's simply not correct, at least in the US. The process I've seen is the employee is taken to a meeting room, they're told they've being let go, they're walked to their desk to retrieve their personal belongings, and they're walked out the door. From the employees perspective one minute they're working like normal, and perhaps a half-hour later they're standing outside unemployed.
    - rovr138 7y ago
      I’ve seen this before. Get an email the day before to deactivates someone’s access at X time. Next day they get called into a meeting 10 mins before X and then escorted to their desk and out a couple mins after.
      - sciurus 7y ago
        I've had similar experiences, where I'm told in the morning to be available to handle an account deactivation immediately at X time, and then at X time I'm given the name. What really sucks is when you have to do it for one of your teammates. :-(
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > I mean it only happens in movies when an employee gets fired and immediately put his stuff in the box and leaves the building. It's not only in the movies. I've seen it done in real life a number of times. In the US, anyway, this isn't prohibited by law.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  I doubt that firing on such a short notice properly followed the correct procedures, in the UK that's an automatic loss at tribuneral.

mjrbrennan 7y ago

What an absolute joke. I suppose that just meant the new manager wanted you gone. Glad you got out of there and into a better place.

davedx 7y ago

Sorry to hear you went through that and glad to hear you made it through. Wish you all the best.

loxs 7y ago

One of my goals in life is to never be susceptible to this kind of situation (been there some years ago). So far I manage to have as big a financial buffer as needed to be able to quit instantly in that situation without batting an eye. Indeed I never hide my ability to do so and I try to make very clear the things "I won't do" at any gig I take. Either before I start or very early in the process. At my current job it is "I won't program in a language without both types and IDE". Because of this I only work on the parts that are in TypeScript and the the JS, Ruby and Python parts are other people's problems. I may seem like an asshole, but so far it works. Almost a year later I haven't been fired. And they seem happy about my work. And I am definitely not near burnout. Stark contrast with the older days.

noir_lord 7y ago
You don’t to me, I spent the last 4 months saving every penny to so that I had 7mths runway in the bank as I was approaching the inevitable “fuck this point”. I accepted an offer for a new job yesterday and so I won’t need that buffer but I’m keeping it, ISA’s and pensions are all good but I didn’t leave myself enough readily accessible cash to just say fuck it and walk if I needed to.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Smart person. Now don't stop saving and increase your runway even further. The difference between having a few years worth in the bank and not is incredible.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    New offer comes with a big salary increase (and me and my partner are saving for a house) so I'm going to be able to save about 70% of my salary after all outgoings - outside of work my goal now is to max out ISA's and then save the rest until I have enough to cover at least 2 years - I noticed there is a peace that comes from having immediate access to enough money to quit (even if you have no intention).
virgilp 7y ago

Leherenn 7y ago

Happy for you it turned out well, but the whole story is quite weird. It's obviously impossible and the timing is awful, so it has to be voluntary and there's something behind it. Did he need a reason to fire you? But that seems like a really bad reason that could backfire in a court.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
There was no internal grievance procedure you could have used.
code-the-stars 7y ago
Court? You must not live in the US. We got rid of any wisp of legal protection from job termination years ago... It has a catchy name invented by the lobbyists that wrote the laws... “Right to Work”
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  The only part of job termination covered by "right to work" laws is that one cannot be fired for refusing to join a union.
- anomaloustho 7y ago
  I think the only legal protection you get from the US government is on the basis of race/religion and what not, as well as some of the original Union terms like 40 hour work week and overtime. Right to Work has to do with whether you are forced to join a union or not. And if not, then don’t get the supplementary legal protections of whatever is in the union’s agreement. You become “fire at will” not because the law says so, but because you are not in a union. On the other hand, most unions will still protect nonunion workers. I’ve never really heard of programmer unions though. Would be curious.
- Leherenn 7y ago
  My thought was that if there was a need for a reason to fire him, maybe he was in a place where there are some legal protections. Usually if you are in a place where you can't be fired at will, firing you for a bad reason is something you can fight in the courts. If you can be fired at will, why even bother going through the whole thing in the first place, just fire him.

halfer53 7y ago

This is one of the reason I hate about PIP( performance improvement program). They set ridiculous goals for you in very short amount of time that nobody can possibly complete, then fire you on grounds of incompetence. A friend of mine who works in Facebook told me that an employee committed suicide due to the pressure of PIP. I suspect that guy was put into PIP due to poor rating (meet most), then was given a ridiculous task which is impossible to complete. That guy was stressed out and that eventually lead to depression and suicide. RIP

tallanvor 7y ago
I can't speak for Facebook, but I know that in some companies, it really is possible for individual contributers to successfully complete a PIP. I've known at least 3 coworkers at my workplace who have been put on PIPs. They were given realistic expectations that didn't require them to work 50+ hours per week, and they completed the plans successfully. Of course, a manager who's put on a plan is generally gone in a few months, or they're allowed to step down into an individual contributor role.
- guitarbill 7y ago
  that just seems weird though. for it to get to the point of a PIP being necessary, a lot has had to gone wrong until then. feels like it's a blunt instrument, used when usual communication has almost broken down. are expectations not normally discussed more informally in regular 1:1s already? i do know people who have successfully completed PIPs and stayed. but every person who's taken the PIP as a signal to look for another position has done better in their careers and been happier than those who stayed. i get not everybody is in that position, but even if the PIP itself is reasonable, being PIP'd is not. it's a symptom of an underlying issue of poor management and should be interpreted as such.
  - bartread 7y ago
    > but even if the PIP itself is reasonable, being PIP'd is not. it's a symptom of an underlying issue of poor management and should be interpreted as such. That's a very broad statement but, whilst the sentiment is no doubt well-intentioned, it's also misguided. Sometimes no matter how much feedback you give, how directly you express it, or how many ways you say the same thing in your weekly 1:1s it just doesn't get through. Occasionally people don't get it. Occasionally they don't want to hear it. Whatever the reason, you're not seeing the results you need, and whilst performance issues are often a result of some mitigating circumstance (divorce, bereavement, illness, and many others), sometimes they're not. At that point a PIP may be entirely reasonable, whether it looks that way to the employee or not. This is especially the case if the employee's behaviour, performance, and/or attitude is having a detrimental effect on the rest of their team. Unfortunately, it often is. Contrary to what you've said, a strong indicator of poor management is a failure to effectively manage performance, and to develop and maintain high performing teams. Managers are held to account on their effectiveness in delivering against company goals. Effective managers sometimes have to work with an employee to correct performance issues. Sometimes the needed improvement doesn't occur. As cold-blooded as it sounds, this will probably lead to that employee being shown the door. I'm not for a moment suggesting that every manager who uses PIPs is automatically right or some kind of enlightenened management genius. Like any tool, they can be used ineffectively or inappropriately. But if they're never used at all that's as big a red flag as if they're used too much.

mihaaly 7y ago

The world is filled with incompetent managers who have no clue about the requirements or conditions and are afraid to ask, they play authority card or even intimidate instead. Very dumb. I feel unlucky never being fired and leaving 4 out of 5 cases because of bad management (poor task allocation, inadequate yet wasted resources, focus on appearances instead of essence both in steering and execution, poor communication or attitude, misuse of authority - including not using authority where necessary). I almost wish of having a (real, not induced!) feeling of incompetency, the feeling of the need to improve, instead of the feeling of wasting my time at work.

gigatexal 7y ago

Good God, what a terrible situation but an even better outcome. So glad you didn't take your life.

nwatson 7y ago

Nossa senhora! Parabéns pelo novo trabalho! ... que fique tudo tranquilo.

d--b 7y ago

Next time this happens to you, write down minutes of the meeting and send the doc to the guy asking to confirm that this is what they ask. When they fire you on Monday, sue.

bot1 7y ago
Is this actually possible?
- megablast 7y ago
  Yes, sending an email is very easy these days.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Shades of Leslie Nielsen.
  - bot1 7y ago
    Thanks for enlightening me on the technologies of the 21st century. Maybe I meant if it‘s actually possible/makes sense to sue him because of an impossible deadline? Who knows
    - methehack 7y ago
      To answer your question (sort of): in my state it is not possible. It is state by state; my state is "at will" employment. This means, in my state, you can be fired just because. Employers in my state can't violate federal law of course -- they can't discriminate etc -- but they can fire you because "you're just not good enough" with no details or documentation. That said, it is likely CA has it's own set of protections that make it harder to do. Usually, it's the company's internal policies that require a PIP and all the documentation even in an "at will" state. This is to maintain the appearance of fairness and to avoid the possibility of employment litigation (companies of course often operate in many states and federal law is always a concern). If you document, you avoid all this. The firing though is usually a _fait accompli_; the PIP is CYA.

cwkoss 7y ago

Yikes. You should send his boss/ceo/investors a spite email telling the story about how he lost a worker who was working for 1/2 market rate by setting impossible deadlines.

ckastner 7y ago
> You should send his boss/ceo/investors a spite email That is a horrendously bad suggestion.
- mcv 7y ago
  A spite email sounds like a bad idea, but this manager sounds very harmful to the company, and the boss/ceo/investors might want to be aware of that.
  - GonzaloQuero 7y ago
    And why would he care anymore about it? The company failed him, so why would he be helpful for them anymore? He did his job, he moved on, whatever happens there should not be expected to be his problem anymore.
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      To help other people who end up at said manager/job.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      That manager is toxic and should be reprimanded and/or fired. The employee certainly has no ethical obligation to do them any favors, but it could prevent that manager from abusing current and future workers in this way. This is a situation where the interests of the workers aligns with the business's ability to succeed. Why not leverage that to try to improve working conditions there? Seems like a win-win for everyone but the toxic manager.
    - mcv 7y ago
      Because if the CEO is smart, they'll fire that manager before he does any more damage to the company, and maybe hire the developer back.

rovr138 7y ago

Glad you got out and best of luck!

ivanhoe 7y ago

Dirty HR tricks when they want you out of there, but have to justify it legally. Funny thing is that you could probably still win them in court as any expert would confirm that task was unrealistic, so it's such a bureaucratic nonsense...

mcv 7y ago

That is just awful. I'm glad you got out and got something better. When someone tells you to do something that's both impossible and utterly unreasonable, just stick to telling them it's impossible. If he tells you you're incapable, tell him he needs to use a realistic planning for these things, and if he can't do that, then he's incapable. There's no angle from which this is even remotely acceptable. Even more so because it involves financial transactions: writing anything related to that in such a hurry is a recipe for disaster. This manager needs to be fired hard, or he's going to bring that company down.

dheera 7y ago
This. Also separately I really wish there were better legal courses for situations like that. Forcing someone to forgo their personal plans on a Friday night and suddenly work on moment's notice should be considered unethical and inhumane, and wrecks society, peoples' mental health, childrens' well-being, and much more. The need for overtime work should be communicated in advance, or there should be an explicit, voluntary, paid on-call rotation for things that occasionally need immediate attention, and on-call should be limited to things that break and need fixing, not things that need to be built.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- fragmede 7y ago
  "No." is a perfectly reasonable response as well, especially since in this case, GP was fired on Monday anyway. All relationships need healthy boundaries, in this case, their relationship with work, and work's relationship with them, is unhealthy. If online research about healthy boundaries isn't enough, I recommend seeking a professional's advice (like a licensed therapist or psychologist).
  - ianai 7y ago
    No psychologist is going to right wrongs that need to be addressed through legislation. Rights have been stripped from individuals and workers. We need a massive redressing of the “corporate” world. Workers rights matter. We’ve got companies that are too big to fail being bailed out by the government meanwhile companies can schedule you for just under the minimum requiring benefits but still take up as much or more of a commitment as a full time position.

russ519 7y ago

Thank you for this! I'm about to go through a forced job transition and this has helped me feel a little more hopefully that it will all work out, possibly for the better. Glad to hear you're happy now!

foxhop 7y ago

I'm so happy to hear you found a better path forward. If anyone is feeling burnout for doing impossible or hero work, please remember your job is _not_ your life. You can escape the toxic situation. Do not be some other man's squirrel.

edraferi 7y ago

BTW that was probably an illegal act by your employer. They gave you a clearly impossible task then fired you when you couldn’t complete it. That’s unreasonable. You might want to contact an employment attorney in your state for a consultation. Your state Bar association can give you a referral and probably a free consultation. They will be particularly interested if this was the culmination of a pattern of bullying behavior (consequences vary by State) or if there’s some kind of protected class involved (eg you are over 40 and the manager wants a younger team). It might seem like an unnecessary hassle, but legal action can help your remaining colleagues and possibly put some money in your pocket.

ufmace 7y ago
I believe that this sort of thing usually isn't worth the trouble. Acts of revenge are rarely really satisfying. Just find a new job at a better-run place. Then email all of your old colleagues about how much better the new place is - maybe you can recruit some of them and get a bonus for that too.
- technologic 7y ago
  way strong, this one's long game is
webinar 7y ago
For at-will employment, employers can legally fire employees for unreasonable reasons, including unrealistic expectations of work performance.

sbfeibish 7y ago

"I thought throwing myself from my apartment window." You got it backwards. You think of throwing your manager out the apartment window.

mbarronj 7y ago
The best Defenestration is a good Offenestration
- reifnir 7y ago
  Stealing that!
mburns 7y ago
>If you are wise, however, this is precisely what you will avoid doing because the average Vogon will not think twice before doing something so pointlessly hideous to you that you will wish you had never been born—or (if you are a clearer minded thinker) that the Vogon had never been born. — Douglas Adams, H2G2
jbattle 7y ago
My aunt had a terrible job in an office building downtown Chicago. One of those jobs where the boss was a maniac and made them work crunch time month after month. Across the street from her building is a ~10 story jail with an exercise yard on the very top. My aunt said she used to fantasize about how if she could throw her boss out the window, they'd put her in jail and at least she could go outside sometimes.
- brianwawok 7y ago
  And right across the street from that jail, were jail tacos. The first place you would go when released from jail. I miss jail tacos. (Here is a picture of the basketball court on top of a 10+ story jail, very weird fixture of the Chicago loop: https://www.google.com/maps/search/corrections/@41.8764071,-87.63063,151m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/search/corrections/@41.8764071,-... )

gwbas1c 7y ago

If I was in that situation, I'd do some form of: What do you want by 11PM? A design? Really, you want the whole thing completed? Is this some kind of a joke? (Depending on relationship) Walk out the door without saying a word, "I quit," or even better, just stand up and say, "Everyone who thinks this is absurd walk out the door with me right now." Why: What I've learned is that employees ignoring an unreasonable boss sends a rapid signal to upper management to get rid of the unreasonable boss.

kabdib 7y ago
You lose benefits and the possibility of taking legal action against the (former) employer if you quit. Even in "at will" employment states you can sue for unlawful termination.
- mrkstu 7y ago
  In this situation it would add up to 'constructive dismissal' so he wouldn't necessarily lose any rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bmaupin 7y ago

Sounds a lot like at-will employment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)

analog31 7y ago
A shady personnel manager at a former job explained the difference to me: If someone is terminated as an "at will" employee, they can collect unemployment and possibly other benefits as well such as severance. If they are terminated "with cause," no benefits. I have never seen a PIP, but it may require you to sign away your rights as an "at will" employee.

arnonejoe 7y ago

you should have quit on the spot.

jszymborski 7y ago

I'm sorry about the stress you must have been under. I am, however, looking forward to the absolute crud an org like that will have to eat when they have managers like that. No org can last long with such levels of incompetence... Chapman's In Search of Stupidity is a chronicling of that.

scoutt 7y ago

Not implying anything, but perhaps they wanted to fire you or wanted you to resign for whatever reason (including those that have nothing to do with you personally).

GhettoMaestro 7y ago

I am very glad you managed to parlay a bad situation into a better one. Fuck incompetent management. It is a virus that eventually ravages the entire host (organization).

bsg75 7y ago

> The meeting was about an app that integrates credit card payments, billets and bank account on a terminal that is going to be available to the general public. > > The deadline? 11PM of the same day. Final version. From 0 to 100% in 6 hours. That is not only impossible, it is reckless. A good way to lose not only money when things break, but get your access to credit cards and bank transactions eliminated when they learn their procedures were not covered.

jkoudys 7y ago

It's amazing how much overlap there is between jobs where they treat you poorly, and where they don't pay you enough. You'd think it would be the opposite, but it's all part of them not valuing you.

dpc_pw 7y ago
Poor pay is often a result of a downward spiral of dysfunctional/failing organization. Your manager gets paid poorly, your coworkers, other teams. Best people leave first and new good people don't want to join. Demotivated teams lacking any talent produce bad product. Poor product looses customers, which forces management into freezing/cutting salaries. Everything compounds. After certain threshold there is no way back, but it is surprising how long can organizations with no hope stick around, and just keep people miserable.
- zubairq 7y ago
  I wish I could +1000 this... so true that poor pay is a result of a downward spiral!
- jkoudys 7y ago
  Interesting how it's easier to have talented people eat microwave ramen for a year while you're energized building something new. Once the salaries go up, then drop, you start to spiral down the drain.
  - mitchdoogle 7y ago
    Isn't the "building something new" job somewhat of a gamble though? To get in on the ground floor of something big for a bigger payday down the line? The same can't be said for a struggling company cutting salaries.

zerogvt 7y ago

Kudos for landing a better job. I guess you were quite young at the time and I hope you matured more than to put yourself in such a harmful situation again. If you deem that something is senseless, impossible or on the verge of abusing you must say so and stand your ground. It is the right thing to do not just for you but for your coworkers and the larger ecosystem you are moving about. It's what that general said about 'The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept' only this time it was about the standard you put up with. All the best

mgh2 7y ago

Sounds to me like constructive dismissal

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

The problem is. People think that when you don't live up to unrealistic expectations that it's their own fault, when really it's just egregriously poor management. In my experience, whenevever someone isn't meeting expectations, it means 95% of the time the problem is the manager. the solution as you found, is to leave and find somewhere else that values your hard work.

philip1209 7y ago

That's so stressful. We've asked every new hire to take a week of PTO during their first month. I wish more places did that - you need time to adjust while switching jobs. But, you're typically stressed while looking for a new job, so you can't really relax until you have a new job and steady income + benefits again.

mitchdoogle 7y ago

Is it possible they wanted to fire you anyway and gave a task to you that they knew was impossible so that there would be a reason for it?

quickthrower2 7y ago

The great thing about being given 6 hours to do a 6 week job is that you know it's impossible. So you say "I'm going to need to work from home". Then off you go to the beach. Or a job interview. Pull a Paula [1]. Then come back and say "Oh it's waiting for app store approval". [1] http://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_brillant_paula_bean http://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_brillant_paula_bean

winrid 7y ago

I guess they wanted a reason to fire you? Regarding twice the salary - seems like you got as much respect as pay. That's usually how it goes.... :(

brooklynwin 7y ago

Absolutely insane you had to go through this, but happy to see that you're happier now.