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A side effect of a stagnant economy and population shrinkage is that Bulgarian property is really cheap. You can purchase a modern flat starting around $15,000
by cpursley 7y ago
A side effect of a stagnant economy and population shrinkage is that Bulgarian property is really cheap. You can purchase a modern flat starting around $15,000 (or rent for really cheap) in a ski community with a very strong remote worker presence (Bansko).
If you do this right, you can also become a resident and benefit from a flat 10% income tax which is lowest in the EU. No affiliation; I just find this type of arbitrage fascinating (and am currently doing something similar on the Black Sea coast of a different non-eu country).
- https://www.travelingwithkristin.com/digital-nomad-blog/2019/1/23/my-150month-digital-nomad-apartment-in-bulgaria https://www.travelingwithkristin.com/digital-nomad-blog/2019...
- https://medium.com/@matthiasezeitler/where-nomads-can-buy-an-apartment-for-10k-to-have-a-base-in-europe-2859ae7a0bf9 https://medium.com/@matthiasezeitler/where-nomads-can-buy-an...
- https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/how-any-non-eu-citizen-become-a-resident-in-bansko-bulgaria-3ff38a85d163 https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/how-any-non-eu-citizen-b...
- https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/getting-bulgarian-tax-residency-for-digital-nomads-6e6a71b51ff0 https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/getting-bulgarian-tax-re...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoAnd assuming the EU's freedom of movement holds eventually people and business will realize this and move there. Then they'll do what everyone else does shoot themselves in the foot by making everything expensive. Eventually the new growth will happen elsewhere and the cycle will repeat.
- dmurray 7y agoThat would be absolutely fine for Bulgaria. They're rightly more worried about not being able to take part in the boom part of a cycle at all.
- kungito 7y agoI wouldn't call this a cycle as much as consolidation. People are moving away from certain areas because their culture requires things which do not exist there anymore and other people with different culture then go there for other reasons. These new people cause some local things to start adapting to the new culture growing in that area. I guess we are talking about farming families moving to Germany and cities looking for jobs because big industry doesn't exist in the villages anymore and they aren't the business type which can adapt to modern farming and way of doing business. Then there's highly educated people who wish to move away from the city and start doing remote work from some nice countryside or business people from the city who want to start a modern farming or tourism industry somewhere. I wouldn't say this is a cycle because this is one cultural transformation which has been going on in transitioning countries for the past 2-3 decades and not something which is happening every 10 years causing people to move back.
- Zenst 7y agoInteresting that you say that, lets look at Poland. They saw a decrease in skilled workers and young who moved around the EU for better opertunities. This saw many parts of Poland become ghost towns. This got to a head and the goverment in Poland got to the point that they introduced a new TAX system. One comparable to USA TAX for nationals in that it didn't matter what part of the World you lived in or earned your money, you as a national would now pay tax. This saw many return home and Poland is now in many parts a growing area of opertunity, many who left initialy returned to a country much more robust, things had improved and with that, they happily returned and for them - life is now much better than the opportunities that saw them be tempted to leave in the first place. This with other initiatives like scrapping income tax for young, to give them a kickstart and remove the easy temptation to get skilled up and then leave, have made a big difference. Though the aspect of having to pay tax twice upon income, really did drive things home in many ways overall from those I know. This is based upon many fine Polish nationals I've had the pleasure to know over my years and keeping up with current events.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago> One comparable to USA TAX for nationals in that it didn't matter what part of the World you lived in or earned your money, you as a national would now pay tax. This is not the case.
- burntoutfire 7y agoCan confirm, I'm Polish and it's the first time I've heard of this.
- Zenst 7y agohttps://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/poland-income-tax.html https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/poland-income-... "An individual is defined as resident of Poland, if at least one below-mentioned condition is fulfilled: the individual has closer personal or economic relations with Poland (center of vital interests) or The individual stays on the territory of Poland longer than 183 days in a given fiscal year." So if you have somebody working abroad, paying tax abroad and sends home money to family, then they are open to being double taxed. I'm sure there is some better article about all this, but this is what I've been told from Polish nationals a few times and one who was giving up a job in another EU country to move back to Poland, due to this and that opportunities for work had improved greatly from a decade ago when they initially left.
- lm28469 7y ago> And assuming the EU's freedom of movement holds eventually people and business will realize this and move there. Most people don't move to a country like Bulgaria just for a job. It's fine when you're 2X years old, can work remotely and have time to get into the culture, language, &c. As soon as you have a serious gf/bf or a family you can forget it. One of my colleague is Bulgarian, he moved to Germany because of corruption, lack of quality school, lack of good paying jobs, and that was in Sofia, not some random small town. There is a reason why it's cheap and everyone is leaving. Also, people underestimate the personal cost of moving to completely culturally different country, you'll never feel at home there unless you live in some kind of gated community or expat district.
- theflyinghorse 7y agoNot feeling at home doesn't really ever go away, you just understand the culture around you better and can fit in better.
- chosenbreed37 7y ago> Not feeling at home doesn't really ever go away, you just understand the culture around you better and can fit in better. True. Would you concede that dependent on one's background/circumstances some cultures might be easier to adjust to?
- theflyinghorse 7y agoI would say so, yes! If a Ukrainian national moved to say Russia or Belarus I doubt they'd feel foreign to the land at all.
- tomp 7y agoDoes that actually work that way? AFAIK the US freedom of movement is mostly resulting in greater and greater concentration... the only non-urban areas that are getting more and more popular are general "nice" (i.e. geographically advantageous) areas, like Florida and ski resorts.
- drpgq 7y agoAren't Californians moving to Idaho and Oregon
- nradov 7y agoThe last few years there has been a significant increase in people moving from California to Texas. Texas now has the fastest state population growth rate.
- rhacker 7y agoMakes sense - I was in Wimberly about 4 years ago and it was so peaceful and quaint - it was a retirement town. Went over there again about 5 months ago and the downtown was bursting at the seams with cars. Same time of year - you can no longer walk across the street without looking - it's a danger zone now. Filled with hipsters and their wives and 2.2 kids.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago.
- barsonme 7y agoNo, that’s a common misconception. In reality, Washington, Oregon, and Idaho all suck. Don’t move here, you’ll hate it.
- blaser-waffle 7y agoEspecially stay away from Boise. Place is a hellhole.
- joyjoyjoy 7y agoYou don't know much about Europeans. You don't know much about businesses either. What sense would it make for a plumber business or restaurant to move there? None. What sense would it make for a high tech business to move there? None. No VC, no subsidiaries, and most important, no other business that you need. A hardware start up need tons of expertise from highly skilled suppliers. Yes, for digital nomads it might work. But so does Panama or wherever.
- 99052882514569 7y agoBeing in an EU country is a definite advantage over Panama.
- alipang 7y agoI have a company in Bulgaria while working remotely for a high-salary EU country, and it's almost shocking to realise how much you spend on taxes in most European countries when you see the difference in your bank account. It's quite a good deal if you want to be a digital nomad since it's an EU country and you can get a really small apartment for almost nothing to use as your official address while travelling. (You'll have to be at least fiscally resident there) Feel free to PM me if you want some tips on how to get things set up there.
- jacobush 7y agoPM ... how?
- Iwan-Zotow 7y ago> small apartment for almost nothing ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, the only problem is with people gone infrastructure around those apartment is quickly going down the drain
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- pcf 7y agoIs there a way to PM on YM?
- helpPeople 7y agoHow bad is it? I pay more than 50 percent of my income in various taxes in the United States. Before anyone asks, federal income, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, state income, state sales tax, local property tax, and lesser- luxury and gas tax.
- dpau 7y agoThat seems steep? What about health insurance? I worked for a few years in The Netherlands and paid a little over 50% of my salary in taxes, however in return I had access to amazing government resources and some of the best health care in the world. At 50% I'd expect the US to provide at least some healthcare :(
- joefourier 7y agoThat 10% income tax is slightly misleading in that you'll also have to pay social security on your personal income, which is up to 26%. So it's not as if you can pay yourself 100k€ and get 90k€ in your pocket (and while a 10% corporate tax is attractive, it's not out of line with other EU countries like Ireland, Hungary, Estonia, Malta...).
- hydraxis 7y agoYou can pay the social insurance for the equivalent of the minimum salary (around 75€ monthly) and pay yourself a dividend. Personal tax on the dividends is 5%.
- probono322 7y agoThe minimum salary is about 280eu, how do you pay for 75eu?
- hydraxis 7y agoYou do not have to pay the salary, just the social insurance.
- pdimitar 7y agoTL;DR: You can be registered in your own company as a manager on the minimum wage, pay a fixed sum of social insurance every month (~100 EUR), and then basically set aside 15% of your invoices income for tax, and the rest is yours. This is exactly what I do for years, it's not fiction and it's working.
- joyjoyjoy 7y ago" (and am currently doing something similar on the Black Sea coast of a different non-eu country)." Would you mind naming the country? Thx
- qwtel 7y agoNot OP, but probably referring to Georgia
- joyjoyjoy 7y agoAh, yea. Could well be. Nomad Capitalist likes it: https://nomadcapitalist.com/tag/georgia/ https://nomadcapitalist.com/tag/georgia/ It has some advantages. I like Tbilisi (the capital) but in the end it is too far off the beaten track to be my base. I need an airport. A good airport! Ukraine is an interesting place too (not for taxes).
- cpursley 7y agoClose. Southern Russia, actually (Krasnodar Krai). It's a neat place off of most peoples radar.
- malandrew 7y agoI'm curious to hear more. Are you a Russian national? If not, how is living and working in Russia as a non-citizen? Is corruption not as much of a concern in that part of the country?
- cpursley 7y agoI'm a US citizen who's partner is a dual US Russian citizen (and I'm eventually considering becoming a Russian citizen via marriage). Right now I'm on a 3-year business visa, which is pretty straight forward to obtain. Western media depicts Russia in a much more negative light than how things are actually on the ground. So far I've experienced zero crime and very little antisocial behavior. Russian people are well behaved (the vodka swigging stereotype is greatly exaggerated; we also have great local craft beer and wine) but some are still holding on to some quirky Soviet behaviors that might seem rude to a Westerner. Also, the streets are cleaner than most large US cities and public spaces are nice. Yes, there are political and curruption problems, but they haven't directly affected me. I'm working for a US company so I can't speak for what it's like working for a Russian company. Prices are generally 40% lower and you can buy nearly anything except good Mexican food (but we have amazing Georgian food). Also, where we are, the climate is similar to the Bay Area (it's a wine region) and the Black Sea coast is beautiful. Overall, my quality of life here is very high VS the US.
- h3333 7y agoI once read a fictional story about a 20 year old selling his remaining lifespan except 3 months for 30 yen. Imagine how awful that life must be if it only sells for 30 yen. He didn't know it when he sold his lifespan, but his future self would have spent his remaining life in a hospital after an accident. The moral of the story is that it turned out to be a good deal. Those flats are the same. The $15,000 is probably an absolutely fantastic deal for the seller. There is a reason why the apartment is so cheap. You get what you pay for and it's most likely crap.
- agota 7y agoWhere is the story from?
- cpursley 7y agoThey're cheap because of the population decline, lack of local jobs and overbuilding / speculation leading up to 2008. The flats are fine and many have never even been occupied. In Bansko, most are within walking distance to the main ski lift, the old downtown area, coworking and other public spaces. It's really a unique opportunity for those who work remotely and want to live in an outdoors-oriented place in Europe with low cost of living and amazing food.
- malandrew 7y agoHow does Bansko compare to well-known US ski towns?
- jccalhoun 7y agoCheap real estate was my thought reading the article. I can see a ton of rich people coming in and buying up tons of real estate in Bulgaria.
- vkou 7y agoThen they will, at one point, look at an atlas, and observe which superpower's traditional sphere of influence Bulgaria resides in.
- photonios 7y agoSame thing in Romania. If you have a bachelor degree and you're employed as a programmer or data analyst or something in that area you get an income tax discount. For everyone else, there's a flat 16% income tax. A programmer or disabled? 10%
- lammasass 7y agoRomanian programmers, in Romania, are pretty low quality.
- abawany 7y agoThis article from NYT implies that prices in Bulgaria are generally increasing: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/realestate/house-hunting-in-bulgaria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/realestate/house-hunting-... .
- simonebrunozzi 7y agoI was reading that capital gains for crypto are also very low, was it Bulgaria or am I remembering it wrong?
- baby 7y agoWhat’s the situation with romania and bucharest? I’ve been eyeing buying an apartment there, you can get really nice places at good locations for 50k