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It leaves a bad taste in my mouth how quickly people will let one bad cluster of comments negate a man's entire life work. I have already outlined my opinions o

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth how quickly people will let one bad cluster of comments negate a man's entire life work. I have already outlined my opinions on this matter elsewhere but I still hope this incident doesn't ruin RMS.

stOneskull 7y ago
Yep. Damn thought police.
- wiz21c 7y ago
  Yep, spot on. And as I said earlier, RMS's crime is that he doesn't condemn unequivocally and totally, (i.e. without judgment), what is perceived as unacceptable by the society. RMS loves freedom more than many of us, that's why "consent" is so important to him (I guess).
  - legulere 7y ago
    Freedom ends where it restricts other people’s freedom and freedom doesn’t mean that there are no consequences. If you question that child rape should be punished, you have to live with the consequences.
mantoto 7y ago
But it wasn't the only comment right?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- godzillabrennus 7y ago
  http://techrights.org/2019/09/15/media-attention-has-been-shifted/ http://techrights.org/2019/09/15/media-attention-has-been-sh...
  - baddox 7y ago
    That article is so bizarre. The author repeatedly rephrased the claim that you can disagree with Stallman’s political beliefs and expressions while still supporting his beliefs about free software. Is anyone disputing that???
    - dylan-m 7y ago
      This author is the same idiot behind boycottnovell (https://web.archive.org/web/20070711171212/http://boycottnovell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070711171212/http://boycottnov...), a campaign against Miguel Icaza, Mono developers, and Novell, for developing Mono (a free and open source C# / .NET implementation), and later for generally existing (along with anything inspired by C#, logically, and anything resembling the Windows Registry). Obviously all a conspiracy by the diabolical Bill Gates, who definitely has time for such important conspiracies, and his evil corporation M$, to "infiltrate" Gnooo Slash Linux and take over the world. Roy Schestowitz has yet to do anything positive for free software. But, rest assured, he probably doesn't have a real PhD. Edit: To be fair, Mono was kind of shit at the time, for purely technical reasons, and it was threatening to be used in ridiculous places despite that. That didn't happen in the end, again for technical reasons. It has steadily improved since then, and Microsoft's position around the Mono project obviously changed for the better. That, and Microsoft really didn't have trouble suing people for using Linux anyway (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-samsung-elec-settlement/microsoft-samsung-settle-contract-dispute-over-patents-idUSKBN0LD2LA20150209 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-samsung-elec-se...). So he's not exactly wrong, in broad strokes. Just terrible. In an alternate universe, perhaps Roy Schestowitz's army of neckbeards would be remembered for saving the day instead.
baddox 7y ago
In what sense do you think that his entire life’s work has been negated?
- baroffoos 7y ago
  I uninstalled gnu + linux and switched to windows.
  - jraph 7y ago
    Thug life! :-) But why would you punish yourself for someone else's acts?
    - dTal 7y ago
      I realize this is a joke thread, but in all seriousness people completely stopped using ReiserFS after Hans Reiser was jailed for murder - despite the filesystem's great performance under some workloads (I believe it was best in breed for small files). I wonder if the effect would have been so dramatic if it hadn't literally been named after him - people aren't necessarily logical about these things. Of course, that moment's hesitation when picking a filesystem in an installer menu is quite different from choosing an OS :)
      - pseudalopex 7y ago
        Reiser3 was in maintenance mode and Reiser4 was unstable.[1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150921073059/article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/4312 https://web.archive.org/web/20150921073059/article.gmane.org...
        dTal 7y ago
        Er, aren't all filesystems either "in maintenance mode" or "unstable"?
        jraph 7y ago
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
Which people specifically are you referring to?
HaloZero 7y ago
From what I've understood, this is just the straw that broke the camel's back with Stallman. He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT.
- ericsoderstrom 7y ago
  I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. The fact is, the reporting around the event that actually did get him fired was beyond awful and disingenuous. By throwing up your hands and saying "yeah maybe those articles were a crock of lies, but that's fine because he actually did do some shitty stuff before too" you're contributing to an environment in which it's that much harder to distinguish honest reporting from fabricated character assassination. I think this [0] comment from Reddit does a good job refuting the "straw that broke the camel's back" argument: """ Amazing how much damage dishonest media coverage can do, even though it's both trivial to prove their misquotes false and we now have an witness further supporting Stallman's original argument. Summary of events: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a co-founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Someone wrote a Medium blogpost called "Remove Richard Stallman" quoting the argument. Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was "entirely willing" (rather than pretending to be) and as "defending Epstein". Note the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so. Since then physicist Greg Benford, who was present at the time, has stated that she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down: > I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me. This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? We're supposed to consider a dead man a rapist for sex he didn't have because of something Epstein did without his knowledge, possibly even in a failed attempt to create blackmail material against him? Despite this, Stallman has now been pressured to resign not just from MIT but from the Free Software Foundation that he founded. Despite (and sometimes because of) his eccentricities, I think Stallman was a very valuable voice in free-software, particularly as someone whose dedication to it as an ideal helped counterbalance corporate influence and the like. But if some journalists decide he should be out and are willing to tell lies about it, then apparently that's enough for him to be pushed out. """ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer_scientist_richard_stallman_resigns_from/f0lo5c8/?st=k11qs2rm&sh=44869ce8 https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer...
vector_spaces 7y ago
It wasn't just a cluster of comments. Stallman not only harassed women and made them uncomfortable, he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker who kept harassing her. Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people leap to the defense of people in positions of institutional and cultural power who behave in a way that disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people. See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- fredsanford 7y ago
  Just a few thoughts from and old guy who's baffled by some things in modern times... I struggle with names at times... And now pronouns? Uhhhh, I bet I screw it up more than 50% of the time. The differences in people (don't say god bless you you to some indians or muslims when they sneeze, for example) are more than I can keep track of at times. Does that make me a creep? There was one guy his chose "The Great and Powerful <something>" for his pronoun. Yeah, I'll remember that... At what point do you become a creep for not remembering? At what point do you become a target for the SJW hit squad?
  - vector_spaces 7y ago
    WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I haven't met someone yet who has preferences outside of that. But you know what? If I met one, it would cost me virtually nothing to respect their preferences and make them feel seen. And to be clear -- it's absolutely fine (usually) to make mistakes, so long as you're making an effort to be respectful. It's not ideal to not remember someone's pronouns (and again, 99% of the time when it's different than what you'd expect, it's either "he", "she", or "they"), but it's also usually not the end of the world -- most people I know, myself included, are fine if you say "oops! my bad". Intentions go a long way.
enriquto 7y ago
> I still hope this incident doesn't ruin RMS Notice that, fortunately, he seems to be in good spirits and has not lost his sense of humor. Look at the top line on his website (stallman.org). He says "I may not be a good leader, but at least I'm a great speaker[1]. " With the link pointing to a video of a comically bad speech of him (which is funny, because he is almost always a very good speaker indeed). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE
- duckerude 7y ago
  It's really odd for him to link to Youtube. I wonder if someone else added it. That part of the HTML doesn't seem to be written with auto-fill-mode either.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    yes, looks suspicious, you mean he was hacked? if that is the case, whomever managed to hack the "supreme hacker" deserves some sort of prize, doesn't it?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - bdcravens 7y ago
      Why would you call him the "supreme hacker"? His claim to fame is his ideology, not necessarily his skill.
      - enriquto 7y ago
        The man wrote the first versions of emacs, gcc, gdb, make and bison (a compiler compiler). He created the FSF and hired programmers to write other parts of GNU like glibc. He also wrote the GPL which is a wicked legal hack. Maybe he's no Knuth, Ritchie or Bellard, but a hacker he is. Certainly among the top 5 alive today.
roenxi 7y ago
It is also discomforting how suddenly people are trotting out years and years of evidence why Stallman shouldn't have held the role. A mob convened, Stallman disappears and there is a pile-on of people working quickly to expand why it was done with all sorts of rationalisations. It is never appropriate for these sorts of controversies to play out over 1 week. If there are years of evidence of problems, there should be a few weeks of tying them all together before people resign. The knee-jerk reaction here over a mailing list comment is genuinely concerning. And people keep quoting him while rearranging the words. We literally have a transcript here, people should be copying from it directly. No quoting of single words in a new sentence, that is just slack. :/
- c256 7y ago
  Do you have any reason to believe that RMS hadn’t been the subject of several co platings, over several years, including several warning/remedial/probationary periods wherein people were working with him to try and improve the behavior that caused at least some of the multiple complaints over multiple years? In other words, what makes you think this process played out over 1 week, rather than this being the most recent of a long succession of events? I am personally saddened by RMS’ departure, and also saddened that this “final straw” seems likely to be caused by Richard attempting to defend the memory of a long-time, now deceased friend. That said, I also know people who interact with him far more often than I, and they almost unanimously say it was past time. It makes me sad, but it doesn’t make me think it was hasty.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    It is kind of obvious that this isn't due to multiple anythings over multiple years. The timing is far too coincidental. There hasn't been enough time to work out what the actual community thinks about the current drama because it takes a month or two for word to percolate around a community; stable opinions over large groups don't form in a week. Even if it is a straw that broke the camels back there needs to be a few weeks of settling to work out if there is straw and where it landed. People like to think they can make snap decisions about what is good and what is bad. It just happens that that instinct is wrong and what fuels mob violence and other destructive actions; there are strong links between good decisions, long timeframes and moderate attitudes. This isn't so urgent that it couldn't wait a month to let everyone breath and take stock. Then Stallman can resign if enough people still think it is appropriate.
Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago
This kind of stuff is social lynching and should be treated as such.
- urthen 7y ago
  People are not reacting the way they are because he has the wrong skin color; or, for that matter, any trait beyond his own direct control. He's being treated the way he is because his actions and comments are insensitive at best and downright vulgar at worst, have been so for a long time, and people have finally had enough. If you can't tell the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
  - rowanG077 7y ago
    It's even worse then if he had the wrong skin color because at least that's real. He has been lynched because of straight up lies by the media.
  - Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago
    When a mob lynches someone it's obvious they "had enough" of him. And maybe he even was guilty enough to deserve such a punishment. But we hardly ever think about this, to us a lynched person is always a victim. Why? Because nobody can be so guilty as to deny them a due process. A real justice where the person can face the accusers and defend himself, and be sure that the decision is made by a jury of impartial peers. People who "finally had enough" can only be the accusers in this scene. Where are the others? Do you really think that insensitivity and vulgarity is worse than mob justice?
  - themaninthedark 7y ago
    A lot of lynchings took place not just because the person had the wrong skin color or other immutable trait. Often the victim was seen as uppity or acting out. I think the parallel holds. Edit to add: Some people have said that Stallman is nuroatypical. If that is the case then it could be very well that his actions and comments are from a trait beyond his control.
adamsea 7y ago
Men of vision never get the benefit of the doubt ;)
mikorym 7y ago
As a person that only knows RMS through his coding, what should I read to understand the context here? I'm not interested in reading foggy comments, tbh.
KaiserPro 7y ago
> doesn't ruin RMS. He's perfectly capable of doing that himself. There was a time where his style of firebrand-like vitriol against proprietary software was crucial. But that time is over. GNU/Linux won, it won years ago. GNU does not have the influence it once did. It is an organisation geared up to solve the problems of the early 90s. The real crux is this, "computing" and free software is not the preserve of academia anymore. It should be for everyone. Which means getting rid of deliberately antagonistic behaviour. It serves noone. I want my children to follow in my footsteps, as I followed my dad. But they can't do that if we cling to these idols who bully, cajole and generally act like obnoxious arseholes. There is just no need anymore. It doesn't work, it doesn't make for better code. Crucially it serves as an excuse to let abusers, psychopaths and other nasties continue to abuse people "because RMS, Jobs & Ballmer all did it" No, that kind of behaviour has to stop.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  So now RMS is abusing people? Citation, please? I'm sorry, but being a rude and obnoxious person doesn't mean the local lynch mob gets to decide when you have to step down from the foundation you created in the name of ensuring human freedom for generations to come. Linux has hardly "won". Most of my friends and coworkers use Mac or Windows. Your post is filled with short-sighted, opinionated nonsense. RMS continues to fight the good fight despite the public turning on him so readily.
  - kace91 7y ago
    > I'm sorry, but being a rude and obnoxious person doesn't mean the local lynch mob gets to decide when you have to step down from the foundation you created in the name of ensuring human freedom for generations to come. No, but considering that his is a position of mostly PR and management nowadays, the majority of the community can agree that having a rude and obnoxious person as their visible head is neither doing any favors to their external image nor helping them move forward internally. Linux has won in the server (and others) by being the better technical product. Linux has lost the desktop war (and laptop, and mobile unless you count android) by being the inferior product in terms of UX, ease of use and in general ignoring everything that isn't pure technical areas. As the parent comment said, this was fine when tech was mostly isolated from mainstream users, but it doesn't cut it anymore. We need new kinds of people, and new visions, for new kinds of challenges. This is not a judgement of him as a person or his former work, mind you. It's a judgement of the qualities that we'd hope for in a leader/public face and whether RMS fits the role nowadays.
rimliu 7y ago
Double standards leave a bad taste in my mouth.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  Care to add something more substantial?
specialist 7y ago
This (latest) RMS incident is the confluence of The Structure of Presidential Scandals and Outrage Culture. The personal, character failings of public figures are tolerated until they run out of goodwill. Then a "scandal" occurs. Nothing new is actually discovered. We always knew about President Clinton's extra marital stuff. It just didn't matter, until it did. I don't have anything useful to add about Outrage Culture. Along with everyone else, I'm still trying to figure it out. Closest analogy I can think of is candidate Gary Hart put his head in the lion's mouth one too many times. -- My take on RMS is a little bit, um, unconventional. Having never met him, I imagine he's somewhere between neurotypical and an ultimatist and a square peg in a world of round holes. His pedantry regarding Minsky wasn't wrong, exactly. It was just unwittingly in bad taste. A common recurrence for RMS. Unfortunately for RMS, this time it mattered. Per the bit about scandals above; public opinion towards RMS crossed some unmarked tipping point, and he doesn't have enough allies to help save his public image. RMS will be fine. And I'm actually okay with this kind of court of public opinion. I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant. If RMS can't or won't, then it's his time to sit down, and let someone more palatable serve as arrow catcher for a while (the job of the ultimatist).
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  FWIW, there's some decent evidence that the Hart 'Monkey Business' thing was a set-up: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/was-gary-hart-set-up/570802/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/was-gar...
- concordDance 7y ago
  If your dead friend gets accused of something in a wrong/misleading fassion it is in bad taste to defend them? > I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant No you really don't want your public figures to try and optimize for things that result in good public opinion, though outlining my reasoning for this would probably be around 2000 words, so not doable on a phone. (I started writing, then realized how big a topic that is)
  - 7y ago
stepvhen 7y ago
in situations like this "one bad cluster of comments" isn't considered a mistake or a lapse in judgement but a symptom of what a person actually thinks. RMS more than likely did not form those opinions on the spot and then forgot he had them afterward. and RMS has a public history that is congruent with those opinions and how he presented them. im sure it leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths what the leader of GNU has done and how he thinks.
legulere 7y ago
It was just the last few drop needed to let the pot boil over. RMS has been criticized for years for being a child rape apologist.
swiley 7y ago
I think something that I haven’t heard people say is that firing him only addresses the emotional reaction to the abuse that happened but may actually make the problem more common in the future. Part of what gave Epistine the ability to do what he did was the fear people had of speaking about what they understood to be reality when they knew it would upset their coworkers or employers. RMS’s lack of that fear (regardless of wether his ideas truly corresponded with reality) is what got him fired. This demonstrates that those fears aren’t unfounded and empowers certain kinds of extremely abusive people far more than any semantic argument about rape or pedophilia could.
cannonedhamster 7y ago
No one is saying tear down everything he had ever done. All that's been said is that someone with a history of being aggressive, supporting of paedophilia, unable to determine appropriate times to debate, and lacking social graces wasn't the best person to lead an organization. RMS has had a long history of getting a pass for his actions because of his skill and passion, he was excused for behaviors that would get most people fired. Humans tend to act like this, a long buildup of frustration followed by quick action once a boiling point is reached. Look at most civil wars for instance. I think RMS made the right decision by stepping back and not letting the outrage fall onto the organizations he's part of. As is abundantly clear from the comments here, RMS will never lack for support regardless of what he does, so I don't think anyone needs to be concerned about him landing on his feet, he's going to be absolutely fine.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > All that's been said is that someone with a history of being aggressive, supporting of paedophilia, unable to determine appropriate times to debate, and lacking social graces wasn't the best person to lead an organization. That doesn't sound like what happened at all. More like he dared to challenge a witchhunt against someone with a tenuous connection to Epstein, and the witchhunt turned on him.
  - _coveredInBees 7y ago
    Have you actually read all the statements he posted publicly on his site? Because your comment glosses over almost everything he said, and how he said it, to make it seem as though he were some completely innocent, blameless party caught up in a shitstorm because he dared to voice a countering opinion.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      You can't ignore the timing. If he wasn't fired/forced to resign because of his comments about Minsky, why did it happen just after those comments?
BuckRogers 7y ago
RMS's problem is that he's too honest and anything involving women and rape is just not worth even commenting on at this point. His point was that a willing person shouldn't be considered raped based on the country they're in or the uptick from 17 to 18. I personally believe 25 is a better cutoff age for this. I get his point, but we have to draw lines somewhere, even if they're imperfect. It's like saying speed limits don't stop all speeding, or gun laws don't prevent all gun violence. Of course not, but in both cases we have to try. We have to try to protect minors whose brains aren't fully developed as well, even if pedophiles don't like it. RMS did walk back his comments after speaking with close friends of his on the subject, essentially agreeing with what I'm saying here.

stOneskull 7y ago

Yep. Damn thought police.

wiz21c 7y ago
Yep, spot on. And as I said earlier, RMS's crime is that he doesn't condemn unequivocally and totally, (i.e. without judgment), what is perceived as unacceptable by the society. RMS loves freedom more than many of us, that's why "consent" is so important to him (I guess).
- legulere 7y ago
  Freedom ends where it restricts other people’s freedom and freedom doesn’t mean that there are no consequences. If you question that child rape should be punished, you have to live with the consequences.

mantoto 7y ago

But it wasn't the only comment right?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
godzillabrennus 7y ago
http://techrights.org/2019/09/15/media-attention-has-been-shifted/ http://techrights.org/2019/09/15/media-attention-has-been-sh...
- baddox 7y ago
  That article is so bizarre. The author repeatedly rephrased the claim that you can disagree with Stallman’s political beliefs and expressions while still supporting his beliefs about free software. Is anyone disputing that???
  - dylan-m 7y ago
    This author is the same idiot behind boycottnovell (https://web.archive.org/web/20070711171212/http://boycottnovell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070711171212/http://boycottnov...), a campaign against Miguel Icaza, Mono developers, and Novell, for developing Mono (a free and open source C# / .NET implementation), and later for generally existing (along with anything inspired by C#, logically, and anything resembling the Windows Registry). Obviously all a conspiracy by the diabolical Bill Gates, who definitely has time for such important conspiracies, and his evil corporation M$, to "infiltrate" Gnooo Slash Linux and take over the world. Roy Schestowitz has yet to do anything positive for free software. But, rest assured, he probably doesn't have a real PhD. Edit: To be fair, Mono was kind of shit at the time, for purely technical reasons, and it was threatening to be used in ridiculous places despite that. That didn't happen in the end, again for technical reasons. It has steadily improved since then, and Microsoft's position around the Mono project obviously changed for the better. That, and Microsoft really didn't have trouble suing people for using Linux anyway (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-samsung-elec-settlement/microsoft-samsung-settle-contract-dispute-over-patents-idUSKBN0LD2LA20150209 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-samsung-elec-se...). So he's not exactly wrong, in broad strokes. Just terrible. In an alternate universe, perhaps Roy Schestowitz's army of neckbeards would be remembered for saving the day instead.

baddox 7y ago

In what sense do you think that his entire life’s work has been negated?

baroffoos 7y ago
I uninstalled gnu + linux and switched to windows.
- jraph 7y ago
  Thug life! :-) But why would you punish yourself for someone else's acts?
  - dTal 7y ago
    I realize this is a joke thread, but in all seriousness people completely stopped using ReiserFS after Hans Reiser was jailed for murder - despite the filesystem's great performance under some workloads (I believe it was best in breed for small files). I wonder if the effect would have been so dramatic if it hadn't literally been named after him - people aren't necessarily logical about these things. Of course, that moment's hesitation when picking a filesystem in an installer menu is quite different from choosing an OS :)
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      Reiser3 was in maintenance mode and Reiser4 was unstable.[1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150921073059/article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/4312 https://web.archive.org/web/20150921073059/article.gmane.org...
      - dTal 7y ago
        Er, aren't all filesystems either "in maintenance mode" or "unstable"?
        jraph 7y ago

SomeOldThrow 7y ago

Which people specifically are you referring to?

HaloZero 7y ago

From what I've understood, this is just the straw that broke the camel's back with Stallman. He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT.

ericsoderstrom 7y ago
I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. The fact is, the reporting around the event that actually did get him fired was beyond awful and disingenuous. By throwing up your hands and saying "yeah maybe those articles were a crock of lies, but that's fine because he actually did do some shitty stuff before too" you're contributing to an environment in which it's that much harder to distinguish honest reporting from fabricated character assassination. I think this [0] comment from Reddit does a good job refuting the "straw that broke the camel's back" argument: """ Amazing how much damage dishonest media coverage can do, even though it's both trivial to prove their misquotes false and we now have an witness further supporting Stallman's original argument. Summary of events: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a co-founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Someone wrote a Medium blogpost called "Remove Richard Stallman" quoting the argument. Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was "entirely willing" (rather than pretending to be) and as "defending Epstein". Note the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so. Since then physicist Greg Benford, who was present at the time, has stated that she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down: > I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me. This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? We're supposed to consider a dead man a rapist for sex he didn't have because of something Epstein did without his knowledge, possibly even in a failed attempt to create blackmail material against him? Despite this, Stallman has now been pressured to resign not just from MIT but from the Free Software Foundation that he founded. Despite (and sometimes because of) his eccentricities, I think Stallman was a very valuable voice in free-software, particularly as someone whose dedication to it as an ideal helped counterbalance corporate influence and the like. But if some journalists decide he should be out and are willing to tell lies about it, then apparently that's enough for him to be pushed out. """ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer_scientist_richard_stallman_resigns_from/f0lo5c8/?st=k11qs2rm&sh=44869ce8 https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer...

vector_spaces 7y ago

It wasn't just a cluster of comments. Stallman not only harassed women and made them uncomfortable, he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker who kept harassing her. Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people leap to the defense of people in positions of institutional and cultural power who behave in a way that disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people. See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...

deleted 7y ago
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fredsanford 7y ago
Just a few thoughts from and old guy who's baffled by some things in modern times... I struggle with names at times... And now pronouns? Uhhhh, I bet I screw it up more than 50% of the time. The differences in people (don't say god bless you you to some indians or muslims when they sneeze, for example) are more than I can keep track of at times. Does that make me a creep? There was one guy his chose "The Great and Powerful <something>" for his pronoun. Yeah, I'll remember that... At what point do you become a creep for not remembering? At what point do you become a target for the SJW hit squad?
- vector_spaces 7y ago
  WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I haven't met someone yet who has preferences outside of that. But you know what? If I met one, it would cost me virtually nothing to respect their preferences and make them feel seen. And to be clear -- it's absolutely fine (usually) to make mistakes, so long as you're making an effort to be respectful. It's not ideal to not remember someone's pronouns (and again, 99% of the time when it's different than what you'd expect, it's either "he", "she", or "they"), but it's also usually not the end of the world -- most people I know, myself included, are fine if you say "oops! my bad". Intentions go a long way.

enriquto 7y ago

> I still hope this incident doesn't ruin RMS Notice that, fortunately, he seems to be in good spirits and has not lost his sense of humor. Look at the top line on his website (stallman.org). He says "I may not be a good leader, but at least I'm a great speaker[1]. " With the link pointing to a video of a comically bad speech of him (which is funny, because he is almost always a very good speaker indeed). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE

duckerude 7y ago
It's really odd for him to link to Youtube. I wonder if someone else added it. That part of the HTML doesn't seem to be written with auto-fill-mode either.
- enriquto 7y ago
  yes, looks suspicious, you mean he was hacked? if that is the case, whomever managed to hack the "supreme hacker" deserves some sort of prize, doesn't it?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    Why would you call him the "supreme hacker"? His claim to fame is his ideology, not necessarily his skill.
    - enriquto 7y ago
      The man wrote the first versions of emacs, gcc, gdb, make and bison (a compiler compiler). He created the FSF and hired programmers to write other parts of GNU like glibc. He also wrote the GPL which is a wicked legal hack. Maybe he's no Knuth, Ritchie or Bellard, but a hacker he is. Certainly among the top 5 alive today.

roenxi 7y ago

It is also discomforting how suddenly people are trotting out years and years of evidence why Stallman shouldn't have held the role. A mob convened, Stallman disappears and there is a pile-on of people working quickly to expand why it was done with all sorts of rationalisations. It is never appropriate for these sorts of controversies to play out over 1 week. If there are years of evidence of problems, there should be a few weeks of tying them all together before people resign. The knee-jerk reaction here over a mailing list comment is genuinely concerning. And people keep quoting him while rearranging the words. We literally have a transcript here, people should be copying from it directly. No quoting of single words in a new sentence, that is just slack. :/

c256 7y ago
Do you have any reason to believe that RMS hadn’t been the subject of several co platings, over several years, including several warning/remedial/probationary periods wherein people were working with him to try and improve the behavior that caused at least some of the multiple complaints over multiple years? In other words, what makes you think this process played out over 1 week, rather than this being the most recent of a long succession of events? I am personally saddened by RMS’ departure, and also saddened that this “final straw” seems likely to be caused by Richard attempting to defend the memory of a long-time, now deceased friend. That said, I also know people who interact with him far more often than I, and they almost unanimously say it was past time. It makes me sad, but it doesn’t make me think it was hasty.
- roenxi 7y ago
  It is kind of obvious that this isn't due to multiple anythings over multiple years. The timing is far too coincidental. There hasn't been enough time to work out what the actual community thinks about the current drama because it takes a month or two for word to percolate around a community; stable opinions over large groups don't form in a week. Even if it is a straw that broke the camels back there needs to be a few weeks of settling to work out if there is straw and where it landed. People like to think they can make snap decisions about what is good and what is bad. It just happens that that instinct is wrong and what fuels mob violence and other destructive actions; there are strong links between good decisions, long timeframes and moderate attitudes. This isn't so urgent that it couldn't wait a month to let everyone breath and take stock. Then Stallman can resign if enough people still think it is appropriate.

Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago

This kind of stuff is social lynching and should be treated as such.

urthen 7y ago
People are not reacting the way they are because he has the wrong skin color; or, for that matter, any trait beyond his own direct control. He's being treated the way he is because his actions and comments are insensitive at best and downright vulgar at worst, have been so for a long time, and people have finally had enough. If you can't tell the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
- rowanG077 7y ago
  It's even worse then if he had the wrong skin color because at least that's real. He has been lynched because of straight up lies by the media.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 7y ago
  When a mob lynches someone it's obvious they "had enough" of him. And maybe he even was guilty enough to deserve such a punishment. But we hardly ever think about this, to us a lynched person is always a victim. Why? Because nobody can be so guilty as to deny them a due process. A real justice where the person can face the accusers and defend himself, and be sure that the decision is made by a jury of impartial peers. People who "finally had enough" can only be the accusers in this scene. Where are the others? Do you really think that insensitivity and vulgarity is worse than mob justice?
- themaninthedark 7y ago
  A lot of lynchings took place not just because the person had the wrong skin color or other immutable trait. Often the victim was seen as uppity or acting out. I think the parallel holds. Edit to add: Some people have said that Stallman is nuroatypical. If that is the case then it could be very well that his actions and comments are from a trait beyond his control.

adamsea 7y ago

Men of vision never get the benefit of the doubt ;)

mikorym 7y ago

As a person that only knows RMS through his coding, what should I read to understand the context here? I'm not interested in reading foggy comments, tbh.

KaiserPro 7y ago

> doesn't ruin RMS. He's perfectly capable of doing that himself. There was a time where his style of firebrand-like vitriol against proprietary software was crucial. But that time is over. GNU/Linux won, it won years ago. GNU does not have the influence it once did. It is an organisation geared up to solve the problems of the early 90s. The real crux is this, "computing" and free software is not the preserve of academia anymore. It should be for everyone. Which means getting rid of deliberately antagonistic behaviour. It serves noone. I want my children to follow in my footsteps, as I followed my dad. But they can't do that if we cling to these idols who bully, cajole and generally act like obnoxious arseholes. There is just no need anymore. It doesn't work, it doesn't make for better code. Crucially it serves as an excuse to let abusers, psychopaths and other nasties continue to abuse people "because RMS, Jobs & Ballmer all did it" No, that kind of behaviour has to stop.

soulofmischief 7y ago
So now RMS is abusing people? Citation, please? I'm sorry, but being a rude and obnoxious person doesn't mean the local lynch mob gets to decide when you have to step down from the foundation you created in the name of ensuring human freedom for generations to come. Linux has hardly "won". Most of my friends and coworkers use Mac or Windows. Your post is filled with short-sighted, opinionated nonsense. RMS continues to fight the good fight despite the public turning on him so readily.
- kace91 7y ago
  > I'm sorry, but being a rude and obnoxious person doesn't mean the local lynch mob gets to decide when you have to step down from the foundation you created in the name of ensuring human freedom for generations to come. No, but considering that his is a position of mostly PR and management nowadays, the majority of the community can agree that having a rude and obnoxious person as their visible head is neither doing any favors to their external image nor helping them move forward internally. Linux has won in the server (and others) by being the better technical product. Linux has lost the desktop war (and laptop, and mobile unless you count android) by being the inferior product in terms of UX, ease of use and in general ignoring everything that isn't pure technical areas. As the parent comment said, this was fine when tech was mostly isolated from mainstream users, but it doesn't cut it anymore. We need new kinds of people, and new visions, for new kinds of challenges. This is not a judgement of him as a person or his former work, mind you. It's a judgement of the qualities that we'd hope for in a leader/public face and whether RMS fits the role nowadays.

rimliu 7y ago

Double standards leave a bad taste in my mouth.

soulofmischief 7y ago
Care to add something more substantial?

specialist 7y ago

This (latest) RMS incident is the confluence of The Structure of Presidential Scandals and Outrage Culture. The personal, character failings of public figures are tolerated until they run out of goodwill. Then a "scandal" occurs. Nothing new is actually discovered. We always knew about President Clinton's extra marital stuff. It just didn't matter, until it did. I don't have anything useful to add about Outrage Culture. Along with everyone else, I'm still trying to figure it out. Closest analogy I can think of is candidate Gary Hart put his head in the lion's mouth one too many times. -- My take on RMS is a little bit, um, unconventional. Having never met him, I imagine he's somewhere between neurotypical and an ultimatist and a square peg in a world of round holes. His pedantry regarding Minsky wasn't wrong, exactly. It was just unwittingly in bad taste. A common recurrence for RMS. Unfortunately for RMS, this time it mattered. Per the bit about scandals above; public opinion towards RMS crossed some unmarked tipping point, and he doesn't have enough allies to help save his public image. RMS will be fine. And I'm actually okay with this kind of court of public opinion. I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant. If RMS can't or won't, then it's his time to sit down, and let someone more palatable serve as arrow catcher for a while (the job of the ultimatist).

yourbandsucks 7y ago
FWIW, there's some decent evidence that the Hart 'Monkey Business' thing was a set-up: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/was-gary-hart-set-up/570802/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/was-gar...
concordDance 7y ago
If your dead friend gets accused of something in a wrong/misleading fassion it is in bad taste to defend them? > I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant No you really don't want your public figures to try and optimize for things that result in good public opinion, though outlining my reasoning for this would probably be around 2000 words, so not doable on a phone. (I started writing, then realized how big a topic that is)
- 7y ago

stepvhen 7y ago

in situations like this "one bad cluster of comments" isn't considered a mistake or a lapse in judgement but a symptom of what a person actually thinks. RMS more than likely did not form those opinions on the spot and then forgot he had them afterward. and RMS has a public history that is congruent with those opinions and how he presented them. im sure it leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths what the leader of GNU has done and how he thinks.

legulere 7y ago

It was just the last few drop needed to let the pot boil over. RMS has been criticized for years for being a child rape apologist.

swiley 7y ago

I think something that I haven’t heard people say is that firing him only addresses the emotional reaction to the abuse that happened but may actually make the problem more common in the future. Part of what gave Epistine the ability to do what he did was the fear people had of speaking about what they understood to be reality when they knew it would upset their coworkers or employers. RMS’s lack of that fear (regardless of wether his ideas truly corresponded with reality) is what got him fired. This demonstrates that those fears aren’t unfounded and empowers certain kinds of extremely abusive people far more than any semantic argument about rape or pedophilia could.

cannonedhamster 7y ago

No one is saying tear down everything he had ever done. All that's been said is that someone with a history of being aggressive, supporting of paedophilia, unable to determine appropriate times to debate, and lacking social graces wasn't the best person to lead an organization. RMS has had a long history of getting a pass for his actions because of his skill and passion, he was excused for behaviors that would get most people fired. Humans tend to act like this, a long buildup of frustration followed by quick action once a boiling point is reached. Look at most civil wars for instance. I think RMS made the right decision by stepping back and not letting the outrage fall onto the organizations he's part of. As is abundantly clear from the comments here, RMS will never lack for support regardless of what he does, so I don't think anyone needs to be concerned about him landing on his feet, he's going to be absolutely fine.

leereeves 7y ago
> All that's been said is that someone with a history of being aggressive, supporting of paedophilia, unable to determine appropriate times to debate, and lacking social graces wasn't the best person to lead an organization. That doesn't sound like what happened at all. More like he dared to challenge a witchhunt against someone with a tenuous connection to Epstein, and the witchhunt turned on him.
- _coveredInBees 7y ago
  Have you actually read all the statements he posted publicly on his site? Because your comment glosses over almost everything he said, and how he said it, to make it seem as though he were some completely innocent, blameless party caught up in a shitstorm because he dared to voice a countering opinion.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    You can't ignore the timing. If he wasn't fired/forced to resign because of his comments about Minsky, why did it happen just after those comments?

BuckRogers 7y ago

RMS's problem is that he's too honest and anything involving women and rape is just not worth even commenting on at this point. His point was that a willing person shouldn't be considered raped based on the country they're in or the uptick from 17 to 18. I personally believe 25 is a better cutoff age for this. I get his point, but we have to draw lines somewhere, even if they're imperfect. It's like saying speed limits don't stop all speeding, or gun laws don't prevent all gun violence. Of course not, but in both cases we have to try. We have to try to protect minors whose brains aren't fully developed as well, even if pedophiles don't like it. RMS did walk back his comments after speaking with close friends of his on the subject, essentially agreeing with what I'm saying here.