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How Apple Kills Indie Developers

306 points by fluder 7y ago

dsalzman 7y ago
It's really ironic to read these articles about the Apple App Store hurting indie developers. It is one of the main reasons that job exists! Apple spent large amounts of capital and R&D to deploy a hardware platform used by BILLIONS of people all of the world! And you can tap into and leverage that platform for $99 a year and 30% of app sales! That's insane. Sometimes it's healthy to stop and look back and understand the change and privilege that we as software developers have received in the very recent past.
dlojudice 7y ago
I just think its weird when someone blames Apple for being so much in control of their app store
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Developers pay money to access. In the ticket, the developer mentions paying the $99 a year. That's not trivial. Apple is literally in the top 10 largest companies in the world for several different measures. If they're achieving those numbers by giving the ole F'you to developers, that is a problem. Getting locked out of a distribution platform for 1~3 months, in today's world can cost thousands or even tens of thousands in sales even for small developers. There are no other options for Apple. You can't install untrusted apps like you can on Android (which is still a huge pain and which no one does). I almost feel like someone like the EU or California needs to mandate that both Apple and Google allow individual users to add 3rd party repositories in the same way you can on most Linux package managers. They can throw up a big warning about device security if they want, but unless there's regulations around it, there's no way for the average use to actually have control over his or her device.
  - filleduchaos 7y ago
    > there's no way for the average use to actually have control over his or her device I feel like comments like this always assume that it's a given that the average user having full control over their devices is a goal that the majority of people agree with and are interested in pursuing. Unless it can be demonstrated that the lack of control over their smartphones is seriously, tangibly affecting their lives in ways that aren't just ideological, the public at large (and lawmakers by extension) are going to keep right on not really giving a shit if they have Linux-like package management or not.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > the developer mentions paying the $99 a year. That's not trivial. If you're running a business, that is very much trivial. I just paid my bank $40 to send a wire transfer to a vendor. It costs $39.99 per month to be able to make apps for Amazon sellers. Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money.
    - chryton 7y ago
      > Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money. ... which means the amount of money spent is _not_ trivial. If you are not policing your costs, regardless of how "trivial," then how are you optimizing your profit? A "cost of doing business" is still a cost on your books. $100 is trivial for a larger business but if you're talking someone small or a side hustle, $100 is something that is not trivial.
      - toasterlovin 7y ago
        In the developed world, $100 per year is just not that much money. You can earn that much from strangers by holding a sign at a freeway on-ramp for a couple of hours. It’s ten hours of work for someone working a low skilled job.
      - filleduchaos 7y ago
        I say this as someone who lives in a developing country: if you cannot afford $100 _a year_ in costs, then Apple and app development in general are very much the least of your worries.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I pay more than a $100 a year to JetBrains. $100 a year is trivial for a side hustle. If you’re developing for iOS, you’re already spending money on Macs, at least one iPhone, probably an iPad and maybe a watch.
- spiderfarmer 7y ago
  Our local village has a market, every thursday. The municipality (don't know if I say this correctly) controls who can have stalls there. It's hard to get permits, so sellers are depending on that one permit for at least 20% of their revenue, even more if they deal with the same municipality in different villages. In theory they could go to other markets, but in practice it can take years to get a good position elsewhere. Too long to survive. If the local municipality decided to ban a seller, for reasons unknown, the seller can get a judge involved who will quickly say if the seller was legitimately banned. Justice prevails. With the App store? Not so much. The arrogance of the tech giants knows no bounds, their legal budgets are endless and judges will never fully grasp the similiarities between the online and offline world. App developers are no different from market sellers, they are just dealing with the worst marketplace model ever. I am not even an App developer, but I really think this should change. It's just not healthy for an economy to have a gatekeeper that has the power to just bankrupt a developer, be it accidentally or on purpose. Banning accounts without detailed reasoning while "investigating" for a long period of time should be seen as criminal behavior.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > If the local municipality decided to ban a seller, for reasons unknown, the seller can get a judge involved who will quickly say if the seller was legitimately banned. C'mon. A local municipality is a government, which is supposed to (and usually legally obligated to) act for the betterment of its constituents. Apple is a private company and, thus, not bound by any such obligation.
    - spiderfarmer 7y ago
      I know that this is the American way, but in my view private companies should not be able to do "whatever the hell they want". You said it yourself: "A government is supposed to (and usually legally obligated to) act for the betterment of its constituents" So, government: Make new rules for the unicorn tech giants. Setting new rules for these behemoths helps small businesses and therefore your constituents. You make the rules. We need them.
    - 7y ago
ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
Any idea why they would want to kill your notes app? There are already a bunch out there and Notes has been around forever.
- fluder 7y ago
  I dont think that they want kill my app, seems like they kills apps by random.
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  I don't think they have to want to do anything. This is just the reality of a faceless bureaucracy which isn't accountable to anyone or anything. To the dev, their app is their livelihood— to Apple, it's just a ticket in a queue somewhere.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - benologist 7y ago
    There is nobody advocating for developers nor monitoring or reacting to abusive behavior except scattered competition and consumer rights bureaus struggling to impose fairness within their limited domain. Companies exploit this for profit in many unethical ways. For instance Apple didn't voluntarily print new marketing material for the EU they advertised a one year warranty illegally instead to upsell Apple Care and went to court multiple times for it. Steam had to be sued to provide refunds. Google had to be sued to refund $75 million in funds they claimed they were returning because of fraud. Business as usual is basically a dark pattern - do whatever they want because it will take years if ever for anyone to challenge them meanwhile there is zero oversight. https://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/123207/apple-is-forced-by-eu-to-give-2-years-warranty-on-all-its-products https://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/123207/apple-is-fo... https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-fine-1202772984/ https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-fine-12... https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-to-refund-advertisers-after-suit-over-fraud-scheme-11558113251 https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-to-refund-advertisers-af...
  - 7y ago
gameswithgo 7y ago
The google store operates in the same way. Application developers need to band together and quit accepting these locked down store monopolies. They aren't good for consumers either. The usual justification is that these stores reduce fruad and malware, but I have found the opposite to be true. Having a single store leads to an aggressive race to the bottom, where gaming the store ranking is priority one. Last two times I tried to find a rather obvious piece of software on apple store (a chess program, and a stopwatch program) I couldn't even find stuff that wasn't misleading adware ridden crap.
- Paperweight 7y ago
  Then there are the overseas developers who release the same low-quality app under several different names to game the search results. (BTW, you're looking for lichess)
- ancorevard 7y ago
  "They aren't good for consumers either." Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. So in Apple's case, I always appreciate when they provide another service/app that I can use, because their values on privacy aligns with mine and they have built up a trust relationship with me.
  - jtbayly 7y ago
    But that’s completely different than the question of what the App Store accomplishes. Apple didn’t need or develop an App Store to distribute their own apps, but third party ones.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - cma 7y ago
    > Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. Couldn't you still have that without banning off-store apps?
vxNsr 7y ago
Do you have any speculation about why they would do this?
- fluder 7y ago
  This happened after I revoked the approved app. I found critical bug and reupload my app. After this actions my app was locked :(
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    Maybe the right solution was to not revoke the current app and just upload the fix? If it was a security bug, that kinda sucks for security, but if the cost is being locked out of your developer account, that might be what developers need to do going forward.
    - fluder 7y ago
      Good point
    - gcheong 7y ago
      Maybe, maybe not. It sounds to me like they revoked the app because they didn't want users to suffer a critical bug until they could put out a fix. I think that's a good thing and I see no reason why it should trigger an investigation, but we'll never know because of Apple's lack of transparency.
  - mizaru 7y ago
    I've done this once or twice in the past without any problems.
ineedasername 7y ago
basically this: "You broke a rule. We won't tell you what rule, or how you broke it. But we're going to punish you for it."
- bitL 7y ago
  They don't know and can't really tell. ML fraud/flagging systems are opaque and non-interpretable. They can also change with each re-training that might happen daily.
  - wwweston 7y ago
    Which is why ML flagging fundamentally shouldn't be used for some unreviewed or non-reversible judgments.
    - bitL 7y ago
      I can understand that the choice is more like: 1) auto-review with false positives/negatives 2) no review at all Frankly, I don't have a solution outside an unrealistic one hiring external experts reviewing each submission which would probably deplete the pool of developers all around the world.
- jpalomaki 7y ago
  If you are trying to stop fraud you don’t usually go into details why you flagged something. Telling the exacts details makes it easier to game the system.
kemayo 7y ago
Glancing at the app store review guidelines[1], I will note that this app's listing[2] is low-key violating the privacy policy requirement by just linking to the github repo for the app, which has no actual privacy policy listed. I have no idea if that's enough for Apple to do a suspension-and-review process like this, but it's definitely a violation. That said, I think they should include at least some hint in their communications about why they're reviewing you, particularly if it's going to take as long as it looks like this one has. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ [2] https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-manager/id1346501102 https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-manager/id1346501102
- d-d 7y ago
  When someone doesn't have proper privacy policy links, Apple points this out very specifically and quickly accepts the app after it's fixed. I've seen them accept policies as simple as a plaintext link containing "We don't store any of your data".
- deleted 7y ago
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- deleted 7y ago
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cumwolf 7y ago
The AppStore experience is miserable. It sucks the life out of you as an independent developer when they reject your app for vague reasons and you know the turn around to get your app reviewed again is going to be another 1-3 days. The quality control is highly variant, sometimes my application goes through intense scrutiny, sometimes it gets rejected purely for user error on their reviewing end and other times it gets accepted without a peep. When they do have complaints and reject your app, you can submit comments or an appeal but they are never responded to or acknowledged. The whole process doesn't make me excited to create another app. I've made two different apps, avaialable on both platforms and the Google Play experience is way overall way easier to deal with, probably because there's less human review & scrutiny involved.
- dheera 7y ago
  I don't use any Apple products for partially this reason. I really wonder why there hasn't yet been a class action lawsuit about this. Considering the market share of devices they control, they should not be giving an edge to the likes of Tencent and Facebook to do whatever they want while indie developers get screwed over.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  As a developer, I am sympathetic, but as a user of both app stores, I very much like that many of the apps Google Play accepts are weeded out by Apple’s review process, and I accept that false positive rejections are going to be a cost of scrutiny. I advise adjusting your expectations to the worst case scenario. When we deploy to the App Store, we budget a significant lead time so we are able to resubmit without blowing our deadline. And we are prepared to fix things we didn’t expect to, or think we have to. In exchange, users are more willing to trust an app we deploy and download it.
- GeneralTspoon 7y ago
  Google Play is arguably as bad - just in different ways. At least an actual human reviews your apps at Apple, and they do sometimes point out specific-ish information. At Google, since it's all bots, a random algorithm change can remove your app from the store overnight. With Apple, if you get through the review process you're usually safe. Not to mention random bans by association (e.g. if a developer at your company has previously had a banned account, then the company account could be banned due to association with this developer - there are a few horror stories out there about this).
xenospn 7y ago
This is very odd. I’ve always found interactions with the Apple App Store review people to be very smooth and they always tell me exactly what they’re looking for while reviewing my app. If they can’t find it, i get back to them and they finish their review in under an hour. I get the feeling someone isn’t telling the whole story here.
- matwood 7y ago
  Same. I do feeling like something is missing in this story.
  - xenospn 7y ago
    Makes sense since it saves them a tremendous amount of back and forth with the developers when they're as specific as possible.
  - fluder 7y ago
    I'm just a developer, not a lawyer, maybe I was wrong, but I don’t know where.
happyweasel 7y ago
Write your core app in cross-platform C++, decoupling the UI (maybe using MVP or similar approaches), then switch to another platform.
- fluder 7y ago
  Already written on Swift :(
- princekolt 7y ago
  Completely pointless non-actionable advice. "Help! My compact got stuck in the snow" "Buy a 4x4 and replace the wheels with tracks, that will get you going anywhere"
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  The UI in client code, especially for something like a note taking app, is often the entirety of the work such that your advice actually introduces more work like having to maintain C++ knowhow. Let me guess, you already work with C++ daily.
FpUser 7y ago
I really feel for those who fall victim of this huge companies that under various disguises trying to get full control of people's lives and business. I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness. All of my products so far are either desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware, no cloudy stuff. Other than paying for security certificates every now and then I have no interaction with the "authorities of the Internet" Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship
- d-d 7y ago
  Yeah, I don't get it. Why hand years of your life over to a bunch of greasy shysters? I'm looking forward to the day these oversized bully companies become irrelevant. That day will come. The amount of innovation and progress they're holding back from humanity is criminal. Can't last.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    To be fair they bring a boatloads of innovation. It is how said innovations are being used. As for "their day will come": so far I only see the opposite. That "your life as a service" pattern spreads like a cancer. Not sure why people are buying into it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- xnyan 7y ago
  "Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship" Uhhh: "I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness" "All of my products..." "...desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware" This is like a professional chef saying they don't understand why everyone does not make their own souffles. People want the same services you want, but are not software developers. I have to assume you're being very facetious?
antoinevg 7y ago
Antitrust moves slow but when it comes it hits like the proverbial hammer smashing a wall-sized tv screen. Remember when all the Microsofties were gloating about how it was never gonna happen to them? Pepperidge farm remembers…
- scarface74 7y ago
  And for all intents and purposes it was a minor slap on the wrist and Microsoft to this day still is one of the rare companies whose market cap hovers around 1 trillion.
privateSFacct 7y ago
For some perspective on apple "killing" developers. Apple is FLOODED with copycat crap apps - 10 different names etc etc. Seriously, the play store used to have lots more of these - maybe now cleaned up. But saying that apple needs to encourage this crap is silly. This is what was killing the play store. The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows: https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes When someone who doesn't know git or github tries to read his privacy policy they have no chance. Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a privacy policy. One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to have someone give them some training on what sections of app review guidelines they are breaking. Do 30 minutes to prep, spend an hour talking with them, then 30 minutes to wrap up. Someone has this service - seriously - consider paying for some guidance if you don't want to read through the lengthy Apple stuff yourself. https://www.iosconsultant.com/services https://www.iosconsultant.com/services
- ihuman 7y ago
  > The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows: https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes The iOS version links to that page, but the mac appstore listing [0] links to a different website [1] with an actual privacy policy. [0] https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes/id1277179284 https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes/id1277179284 [1] https://fsnot.es/pp.html https://fsnot.es/pp.html
- fluder 7y ago
  No problem, if this crap (really no), why not delete this? Main point in post — 3 month investigation is not normal.
- calcifer 7y ago
  > Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a privacy policy. Apple didn't say this was a privacy policy issue, why do you think it is? > One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to [...] So by default if Apple rejects you and refuses to give a reason, you should have the "opportunity" of paying them $500 so Apple tells you what Apple already knows? What a deal!
YooLi 7y ago
Feels like there are some pieces missing from the story. This isn't a "we won't approve your app because it's not following the app guidelines" rejection or an app stuck in review purgatory. (I once had an Apple TV app stuck in review for 10 weeks before it magically was approved with no changes from me.) This is a "your account did something it shouldn't have done" flag. The whole account is suspended for an alleged infraction of "App Store Review Guidelines’ Developer Code of Conduct". Did your account do contract work on other "spammy" apps or similar? Even if you worked on completely different apps, it's not unprecedented for Apple to just blow the whole account up if it's in any way tied. Edit to add Code of Conduct: 5.6 Developer Code of Conduct Please treat everyone with respect, whether in your responses to App Store reviews, customer support requests, or when communicating with Apple, including your responses in Resolution Center. Do not engage in harassment of any kind, discriminatory practices, intimidation, bullying, and don’t encourage others to engage in any of the above. Customer trust is the cornerstone of the App Store’s success. Apps should never prey on users or attempt to rip-off customers, trick them into making unwanted purchases, force them to share unnecessary data, raise prices in a tricky manner, charge for features or content that are not delivered, or engage in any other manipulative practices within or outside of the app.
- xnyan 7y ago
  I'm not aware of the details. but from my (admittedly non-empirical data) that this experience is not uncommon. When Apple thinks there's a problem, big applications are more likely to get quick communication from Apple and small ones get tend to get drawn-out silence.I hear about it from friends, coworkers and my own experience. This makes sense in a realpolitik way - Apple has a monopoly on mobile app profits. Where else can you go? Apple is not trying to smash small devs, but they also know they have very little pressure to provide great service to small devs.
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    > big applications are more likely to get quick communication from Apple and small ones get tend to get drawn-out silence Don't most companies provide better response time to larger customers?
css 7y ago
Back in 2013/14 I got into it with the approval team [0] but I was at least able to get responses and feedback. I am really surprised they outright ignore devs now, especially since they have significantly scaled up review team sizes [1]. I also don't see how this is related to apple "killing" indie devs; there are tons of notes apps in the store, this one is probably just breaking some guideline. [0] https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/ https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/ [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-apple-reject-my-app-ex-head-of-app-store-review-explains https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-a...
edpichler 7y ago
I have a similar problem with Youtube. I created original content and they blocked, saying that is not original. No details, impossible to talk with a person. I always end up enforcing my theory that some companies are becoming too powerful.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
labmixz 7y ago
Kind of one sided. The developer who posted this didn't include his emails to Apple. With that being said, it's hard to determine what was said to support. Did said developer ask why his account is currently under investigation? Hard to determine since he only posted what Apple sent back. Personally I have 5 Apps on the AppStore, have for many years, they are small bs apps that don't have much to them (stuff like a Migraine Tracker, before HealthKit was a thing, etc..). I've never ran into an issue with my apps being reviewed. Yes, some have taken awhile, Apple is flooded with requests and they've increased requirements (etc) which only makes things take longer. But since this really isn't about the Application being submitted, more so about the user's account under investigation. I would venture to say, there's something else going on that said Developer isn't posting. Your $99 developer subscription means nothing if you violate their terms. All that $99 does is weed out even more potential malicious developers (as most won't bother with paying $99 and will just go to Android). With that being said, the amount of developers submitting apps for review, Apple should find some way to review apps faster, especially since it is something we pay for. But there are a lot of developers trying to be sneaky and make simple applications for more complicated than they should be to sneak in code to either collect or steal data they have no business with. The more developers that do this, the more extensive review process Apple will have, the longer the wait times will be.
phendrenad2 7y ago
If Apple put the care and attention into app store reviews that they put into their iPhone/iPad hardware and iOS, they would have actual humans review everything. But the "race to the bottom" mentality has taken root, and if left unchecked will spread to the rest of the company IMO.
urda 7y ago
Each time I've seen this type of article make the news cycle it's as follows: - Apple does X against small / indie developer! I know it makes for a great headline. - Indie developer did no harm, rights a heart tugger of a blog post. - Post reaches front of HN, reddit, etc ... - Further digging shows not only did the indie developer not follow guidelines, they blatantly ignored them. - Indie dev is exposed for not following Apple guidelines. The way the issue is written makes it seem a considerable amount of information is being hidden. I'm going to wait until the dust settles before I take any sides.
- simion314 7y ago
  Each time Apple does some mistake the fanboys defend Apple and accuse the legitimate customer, then when Apple is forced to admit the mistake same fanboys praise Apple. Some recent examples: - the keyboard issues, when first reports appeared people were accused they were using them wrong, eating and drinking while typing - the videos with the Macbook catching fire, people were accusing that person that it was fake or he used it wrong I would conclude that Apple can make mistakes and I would stop accusing people of using things wrong.
bitL 7y ago
Google: REPEAT We have suspended your AdSense account due to our ML system flagging you for fraud (yes, we trust it) and we can't tell you why (no, we really can't tell you even if we wanted to). UNTIL customer goes away or the case gets enough upvotes on HN to be a PR problem Amazon: REPEAT We have removed your seller privileges due to a change in our policies we didn't communicate to anyone and you likely selling a brand that was recently put on a gated list or our ML system is thinking you are a fraud because you logged in in private mode. UNTIL customer goes away or hires a consulting company with ties to Amazon managers Apple: REPEAT We have placed your account under review with opaque "policy violation" but we won't tell you why (like Google we can't tell as some of our ML models have good day flagging you for reasons known only to them). Or you might have tweeted something 5 years ago against a company we just acquired. Well, bad luck. UNTIL developer goes away FAANG customer service in a nutshell.
- fluder 7y ago
  Similar story bro, techno giants fu us :(
crb002 7y ago
Sue them in Iowa State Court where the are building a a massive new data center. Recommend Attorney Gary Dickey or attorney Julia Ofenbakh.
mikepechadotcom 7y ago
Time to ditch native
msephton 7y ago
This is so disheartening! It is guilty until proven innocent. I've had similar experiences as a seller on eBay: when a buyer reports you they react in favour of the buyer because buyers make their business model work. I suspect it's the same here, that Apple have received some sort of complaint about the iOS app (given that the macOS app is unaffected) and the automatic "guilty until proven innocent" system has been activated. And sadly the only thing to do is wait for it to finish. It could be something like waiting 60 or 90 days without any further complaints of the same nature. You could hope for intervention by a sympathetic App Store employee or rep, but I don't know how likely that will be. To add insult to injury there is also the fact that this is an open source app and dishonest people are cloning it and selling it, and Apple are slow to take them down if they do at all.
hesburg 7y ago
Huh, I was waiting Apple to approve my app about 7 weeks.. I really started to wonder whole app development in IOS platform. Why in earth we need to pay 100 dollars to keep our Dev license and keep apps in store ? Anyway, android app development has less sandbox feeling at the moment..
fluder 7y ago
Some news. App approved without any clarifications. I am still dont know why updates was blocked. Investigation warning still exist in my account.

306 points by fluder 7y ago

It's really ironic to read these articles about the Apple App Store hurting indie developers. It is one of the main reasons that job exists! Apple spent large amounts of capital and R&D to deploy a hardware platform used by BILLIONS of people all of the world! And you can tap into and leverage that platform for $99 a year and 30% of app sales! That's insane. Sometimes it's healthy to stop and look back and understand the change and privilege that we as software developers have received in the very recent past.

dlojudice 7y ago

I just think its weird when someone blames Apple for being so much in control of their app store

djsumdog 7y ago
Developers pay money to access. In the ticket, the developer mentions paying the $99 a year. That's not trivial. Apple is literally in the top 10 largest companies in the world for several different measures. If they're achieving those numbers by giving the ole F'you to developers, that is a problem. Getting locked out of a distribution platform for 1~3 months, in today's world can cost thousands or even tens of thousands in sales even for small developers. There are no other options for Apple. You can't install untrusted apps like you can on Android (which is still a huge pain and which no one does). I almost feel like someone like the EU or California needs to mandate that both Apple and Google allow individual users to add 3rd party repositories in the same way you can on most Linux package managers. They can throw up a big warning about device security if they want, but unless there's regulations around it, there's no way for the average use to actually have control over his or her device.
- filleduchaos 7y ago
  > there's no way for the average use to actually have control over his or her device I feel like comments like this always assume that it's a given that the average user having full control over their devices is a goal that the majority of people agree with and are interested in pursuing. Unless it can be demonstrated that the lack of control over their smartphones is seriously, tangibly affecting their lives in ways that aren't just ideological, the public at large (and lawmakers by extension) are going to keep right on not really giving a shit if they have Linux-like package management or not.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  > the developer mentions paying the $99 a year. That's not trivial. If you're running a business, that is very much trivial. I just paid my bank $40 to send a wire transfer to a vendor. It costs $39.99 per month to be able to make apps for Amazon sellers. Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money.
  - chryton 7y ago
    > Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money. ... which means the amount of money spent is _not_ trivial. If you are not policing your costs, regardless of how "trivial," then how are you optimizing your profit? A "cost of doing business" is still a cost on your books. $100 is trivial for a larger business but if you're talking someone small or a side hustle, $100 is something that is not trivial.
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      In the developed world, $100 per year is just not that much money. You can earn that much from strangers by holding a sign at a freeway on-ramp for a couple of hours. It’s ten hours of work for someone working a low skilled job.
    - filleduchaos 7y ago
      I say this as someone who lives in a developing country: if you cannot afford $100 _a year_ in costs, then Apple and app development in general are very much the least of your worries.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I pay more than a $100 a year to JetBrains. $100 a year is trivial for a side hustle. If you’re developing for iOS, you’re already spending money on Macs, at least one iPhone, probably an iPad and maybe a watch.
spiderfarmer 7y ago
Our local village has a market, every thursday. The municipality (don't know if I say this correctly) controls who can have stalls there. It's hard to get permits, so sellers are depending on that one permit for at least 20% of their revenue, even more if they deal with the same municipality in different villages. In theory they could go to other markets, but in practice it can take years to get a good position elsewhere. Too long to survive. If the local municipality decided to ban a seller, for reasons unknown, the seller can get a judge involved who will quickly say if the seller was legitimately banned. Justice prevails. With the App store? Not so much. The arrogance of the tech giants knows no bounds, their legal budgets are endless and judges will never fully grasp the similiarities between the online and offline world. App developers are no different from market sellers, they are just dealing with the worst marketplace model ever. I am not even an App developer, but I really think this should change. It's just not healthy for an economy to have a gatekeeper that has the power to just bankrupt a developer, be it accidentally or on purpose. Banning accounts without detailed reasoning while "investigating" for a long period of time should be seen as criminal behavior.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  > If the local municipality decided to ban a seller, for reasons unknown, the seller can get a judge involved who will quickly say if the seller was legitimately banned. C'mon. A local municipality is a government, which is supposed to (and usually legally obligated to) act for the betterment of its constituents. Apple is a private company and, thus, not bound by any such obligation.
  - spiderfarmer 7y ago
    I know that this is the American way, but in my view private companies should not be able to do "whatever the hell they want". You said it yourself: "A government is supposed to (and usually legally obligated to) act for the betterment of its constituents" So, government: Make new rules for the unicorn tech giants. Setting new rules for these behemoths helps small businesses and therefore your constituents. You make the rules. We need them.
  - 7y ago

ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago

Any idea why they would want to kill your notes app? There are already a bunch out there and Notes has been around forever.

fluder 7y ago
I dont think that they want kill my app, seems like they kills apps by random.
mikepurvis 7y ago
I don't think they have to want to do anything. This is just the reality of a faceless bureaucracy which isn't accountable to anyone or anything. To the dev, their app is their livelihood— to Apple, it's just a ticket in a queue somewhere.
- deleted 7y ago
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- benologist 7y ago
  There is nobody advocating for developers nor monitoring or reacting to abusive behavior except scattered competition and consumer rights bureaus struggling to impose fairness within their limited domain. Companies exploit this for profit in many unethical ways. For instance Apple didn't voluntarily print new marketing material for the EU they advertised a one year warranty illegally instead to upsell Apple Care and went to court multiple times for it. Steam had to be sued to provide refunds. Google had to be sued to refund $75 million in funds they claimed they were returning because of fraud. Business as usual is basically a dark pattern - do whatever they want because it will take years if ever for anyone to challenge them meanwhile there is zero oversight. https://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/123207/apple-is-forced-by-eu-to-give-2-years-warranty-on-all-its-products https://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/123207/apple-is-fo... https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-fine-1202772984/ https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-fine-12... https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-to-refund-advertisers-after-suit-over-fraud-scheme-11558113251 https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-to-refund-advertisers-af...
- 7y ago

gameswithgo 7y ago

The google store operates in the same way. Application developers need to band together and quit accepting these locked down store monopolies. They aren't good for consumers either. The usual justification is that these stores reduce fruad and malware, but I have found the opposite to be true. Having a single store leads to an aggressive race to the bottom, where gaming the store ranking is priority one. Last two times I tried to find a rather obvious piece of software on apple store (a chess program, and a stopwatch program) I couldn't even find stuff that wasn't misleading adware ridden crap.

Paperweight 7y ago
Then there are the overseas developers who release the same low-quality app under several different names to game the search results. (BTW, you're looking for lichess)
ancorevard 7y ago
"They aren't good for consumers either." Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. So in Apple's case, I always appreciate when they provide another service/app that I can use, because their values on privacy aligns with mine and they have built up a trust relationship with me.
- jtbayly 7y ago
  But that’s completely different than the question of what the App Store accomplishes. Apple didn’t need or develop an App Store to distribute their own apps, but third party ones.
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- cma 7y ago
  > Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. Couldn't you still have that without banning off-store apps?

vxNsr 7y ago

Do you have any speculation about why they would do this?

fluder 7y ago
This happened after I revoked the approved app. I found critical bug and reupload my app. After this actions my app was locked :(
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Maybe the right solution was to not revoke the current app and just upload the fix? If it was a security bug, that kinda sucks for security, but if the cost is being locked out of your developer account, that might be what developers need to do going forward.
  - fluder 7y ago
    Good point
  - gcheong 7y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. It sounds to me like they revoked the app because they didn't want users to suffer a critical bug until they could put out a fix. I think that's a good thing and I see no reason why it should trigger an investigation, but we'll never know because of Apple's lack of transparency.
- mizaru 7y ago
  I've done this once or twice in the past without any problems.

ineedasername 7y ago

basically this: "You broke a rule. We won't tell you what rule, or how you broke it. But we're going to punish you for it."

bitL 7y ago
They don't know and can't really tell. ML fraud/flagging systems are opaque and non-interpretable. They can also change with each re-training that might happen daily.
- wwweston 7y ago
  Which is why ML flagging fundamentally shouldn't be used for some unreviewed or non-reversible judgments.
  - bitL 7y ago
    I can understand that the choice is more like: 1) auto-review with false positives/negatives 2) no review at all Frankly, I don't have a solution outside an unrealistic one hiring external experts reviewing each submission which would probably deplete the pool of developers all around the world.
jpalomaki 7y ago
If you are trying to stop fraud you don’t usually go into details why you flagged something. Telling the exacts details makes it easier to game the system.

kemayo 7y ago

Glancing at the app store review guidelines[1], I will note that this app's listing[2] is low-key violating the privacy policy requirement by just linking to the github repo for the app, which has no actual privacy policy listed. I have no idea if that's enough for Apple to do a suspension-and-review process like this, but it's definitely a violation. That said, I think they should include at least some hint in their communications about why they're reviewing you, particularly if it's going to take as long as it looks like this one has. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ [2] https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-manager/id1346501102 https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-manager/id1346501102

d-d 7y ago
When someone doesn't have proper privacy policy links, Apple points this out very specifically and quickly accepts the app after it's fixed. I've seen them accept policies as simple as a plaintext link containing "We don't store any of your data".
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cumwolf 7y ago

The AppStore experience is miserable. It sucks the life out of you as an independent developer when they reject your app for vague reasons and you know the turn around to get your app reviewed again is going to be another 1-3 days. The quality control is highly variant, sometimes my application goes through intense scrutiny, sometimes it gets rejected purely for user error on their reviewing end and other times it gets accepted without a peep. When they do have complaints and reject your app, you can submit comments or an appeal but they are never responded to or acknowledged. The whole process doesn't make me excited to create another app. I've made two different apps, avaialable on both platforms and the Google Play experience is way overall way easier to deal with, probably because there's less human review & scrutiny involved.

dheera 7y ago
I don't use any Apple products for partially this reason. I really wonder why there hasn't yet been a class action lawsuit about this. Considering the market share of devices they control, they should not be giving an edge to the likes of Tencent and Facebook to do whatever they want while indie developers get screwed over.
1123581321 7y ago
As a developer, I am sympathetic, but as a user of both app stores, I very much like that many of the apps Google Play accepts are weeded out by Apple’s review process, and I accept that false positive rejections are going to be a cost of scrutiny. I advise adjusting your expectations to the worst case scenario. When we deploy to the App Store, we budget a significant lead time so we are able to resubmit without blowing our deadline. And we are prepared to fix things we didn’t expect to, or think we have to. In exchange, users are more willing to trust an app we deploy and download it.
GeneralTspoon 7y ago
Google Play is arguably as bad - just in different ways. At least an actual human reviews your apps at Apple, and they do sometimes point out specific-ish information. At Google, since it's all bots, a random algorithm change can remove your app from the store overnight. With Apple, if you get through the review process you're usually safe. Not to mention random bans by association (e.g. if a developer at your company has previously had a banned account, then the company account could be banned due to association with this developer - there are a few horror stories out there about this).

xenospn 7y ago

This is very odd. I’ve always found interactions with the Apple App Store review people to be very smooth and they always tell me exactly what they’re looking for while reviewing my app. If they can’t find it, i get back to them and they finish their review in under an hour. I get the feeling someone isn’t telling the whole story here.

matwood 7y ago
Same. I do feeling like something is missing in this story.
- xenospn 7y ago
  Makes sense since it saves them a tremendous amount of back and forth with the developers when they're as specific as possible.
- fluder 7y ago
  I'm just a developer, not a lawyer, maybe I was wrong, but I don’t know where.

happyweasel 7y ago

Write your core app in cross-platform C++, decoupling the UI (maybe using MVP or similar approaches), then switch to another platform.

fluder 7y ago
Already written on Swift :(
princekolt 7y ago
Completely pointless non-actionable advice. "Help! My compact got stuck in the snow" "Buy a 4x4 and replace the wheels with tracks, that will get you going anywhere"
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hombre_fatal 7y ago
The UI in client code, especially for something like a note taking app, is often the entirety of the work such that your advice actually introduces more work like having to maintain C++ knowhow. Let me guess, you already work with C++ daily.

FpUser 7y ago

I really feel for those who fall victim of this huge companies that under various disguises trying to get full control of people's lives and business. I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness. All of my products so far are either desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware, no cloudy stuff. Other than paying for security certificates every now and then I have no interaction with the "authorities of the Internet" Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship

d-d 7y ago
Yeah, I don't get it. Why hand years of your life over to a bunch of greasy shysters? I'm looking forward to the day these oversized bully companies become irrelevant. That day will come. The amount of innovation and progress they're holding back from humanity is criminal. Can't last.
- FpUser 7y ago
  To be fair they bring a boatloads of innovation. It is how said innovations are being used. As for "their day will come": so far I only see the opposite. That "your life as a service" pattern spreads like a cancer. Not sure why people are buying into it.
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xnyan 7y ago
"Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship" Uhhh: "I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness" "All of my products..." "...desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware" This is like a professional chef saying they don't understand why everyone does not make their own souffles. People want the same services you want, but are not software developers. I have to assume you're being very facetious?

antoinevg 7y ago

Antitrust moves slow but when it comes it hits like the proverbial hammer smashing a wall-sized tv screen. Remember when all the Microsofties were gloating about how it was never gonna happen to them? Pepperidge farm remembers…

scarface74 7y ago
And for all intents and purposes it was a minor slap on the wrist and Microsoft to this day still is one of the rare companies whose market cap hovers around 1 trillion.

privateSFacct 7y ago

For some perspective on apple "killing" developers. Apple is FLOODED with copycat crap apps - 10 different names etc etc. Seriously, the play store used to have lots more of these - maybe now cleaned up. But saying that apple needs to encourage this crap is silly. This is what was killing the play store. The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows: https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes When someone who doesn't know git or github tries to read his privacy policy they have no chance. Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a privacy policy. One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to have someone give them some training on what sections of app review guidelines they are breaking. Do 30 minutes to prep, spend an hour talking with them, then 30 minutes to wrap up. Someone has this service - seriously - consider paying for some guidance if you don't want to read through the lengthy Apple stuff yourself. https://www.iosconsultant.com/services https://www.iosconsultant.com/services

ihuman 7y ago
> The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows: https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes The iOS version links to that page, but the mac appstore listing [0] links to a different website [1] with an actual privacy policy. [0] https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes/id1277179284 https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes/id1277179284 [1] https://fsnot.es/pp.html https://fsnot.es/pp.html
fluder 7y ago
No problem, if this crap (really no), why not delete this? Main point in post — 3 month investigation is not normal.
calcifer 7y ago
> Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a privacy policy. Apple didn't say this was a privacy policy issue, why do you think it is? > One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to [...] So by default if Apple rejects you and refuses to give a reason, you should have the "opportunity" of paying them $500 so Apple tells you what Apple already knows? What a deal!

YooLi 7y ago

Feels like there are some pieces missing from the story. This isn't a "we won't approve your app because it's not following the app guidelines" rejection or an app stuck in review purgatory. (I once had an Apple TV app stuck in review for 10 weeks before it magically was approved with no changes from me.) This is a "your account did something it shouldn't have done" flag. The whole account is suspended for an alleged infraction of "App Store Review Guidelines’ Developer Code of Conduct". Did your account do contract work on other "spammy" apps or similar? Even if you worked on completely different apps, it's not unprecedented for Apple to just blow the whole account up if it's in any way tied. Edit to add Code of Conduct: 5.6 Developer Code of Conduct Please treat everyone with respect, whether in your responses to App Store reviews, customer support requests, or when communicating with Apple, including your responses in Resolution Center. Do not engage in harassment of any kind, discriminatory practices, intimidation, bullying, and don’t encourage others to engage in any of the above. Customer trust is the cornerstone of the App Store’s success. Apps should never prey on users or attempt to rip-off customers, trick them into making unwanted purchases, force them to share unnecessary data, raise prices in a tricky manner, charge for features or content that are not delivered, or engage in any other manipulative practices within or outside of the app.

xnyan 7y ago
I'm not aware of the details. but from my (admittedly non-empirical data) that this experience is not uncommon. When Apple thinks there's a problem, big applications are more likely to get quick communication from Apple and small ones get tend to get drawn-out silence.I hear about it from friends, coworkers and my own experience. This makes sense in a realpolitik way - Apple has a monopoly on mobile app profits. Where else can you go? Apple is not trying to smash small devs, but they also know they have very little pressure to provide great service to small devs.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  > big applications are more likely to get quick communication from Apple and small ones get tend to get drawn-out silence Don't most companies provide better response time to larger customers?

css 7y ago

Back in 2013/14 I got into it with the approval team [0] but I was at least able to get responses and feedback. I am really surprised they outright ignore devs now, especially since they have significantly scaled up review team sizes [1]. I also don't see how this is related to apple "killing" indie devs; there are tons of notes apps in the store, this one is probably just breaking some guideline. [0] https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/ https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/ [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-apple-reject-my-app-ex-head-of-app-store-review-explains https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-a...

edpichler 7y ago

I have a similar problem with Youtube. I created original content and they blocked, saying that is not original. No details, impossible to talk with a person. I always end up enforcing my theory that some companies are becoming too powerful.

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labmixz 7y ago

Kind of one sided. The developer who posted this didn't include his emails to Apple. With that being said, it's hard to determine what was said to support. Did said developer ask why his account is currently under investigation? Hard to determine since he only posted what Apple sent back. Personally I have 5 Apps on the AppStore, have for many years, they are small bs apps that don't have much to them (stuff like a Migraine Tracker, before HealthKit was a thing, etc..). I've never ran into an issue with my apps being reviewed. Yes, some have taken awhile, Apple is flooded with requests and they've increased requirements (etc) which only makes things take longer. But since this really isn't about the Application being submitted, more so about the user's account under investigation. I would venture to say, there's something else going on that said Developer isn't posting. Your $99 developer subscription means nothing if you violate their terms. All that $99 does is weed out even more potential malicious developers (as most won't bother with paying $99 and will just go to Android). With that being said, the amount of developers submitting apps for review, Apple should find some way to review apps faster, especially since it is something we pay for. But there are a lot of developers trying to be sneaky and make simple applications for more complicated than they should be to sneak in code to either collect or steal data they have no business with. The more developers that do this, the more extensive review process Apple will have, the longer the wait times will be.

phendrenad2 7y ago

If Apple put the care and attention into app store reviews that they put into their iPhone/iPad hardware and iOS, they would have actual humans review everything. But the "race to the bottom" mentality has taken root, and if left unchecked will spread to the rest of the company IMO.

urda 7y ago

Each time I've seen this type of article make the news cycle it's as follows: - Apple does X against small / indie developer! I know it makes for a great headline. - Indie developer did no harm, rights a heart tugger of a blog post. - Post reaches front of HN, reddit, etc ... - Further digging shows not only did the indie developer not follow guidelines, they blatantly ignored them. - Indie dev is exposed for not following Apple guidelines. The way the issue is written makes it seem a considerable amount of information is being hidden. I'm going to wait until the dust settles before I take any sides.

simion314 7y ago
Each time Apple does some mistake the fanboys defend Apple and accuse the legitimate customer, then when Apple is forced to admit the mistake same fanboys praise Apple. Some recent examples: - the keyboard issues, when first reports appeared people were accused they were using them wrong, eating and drinking while typing - the videos with the Macbook catching fire, people were accusing that person that it was fake or he used it wrong I would conclude that Apple can make mistakes and I would stop accusing people of using things wrong.

bitL 7y ago

Google: REPEAT We have suspended your AdSense account due to our ML system flagging you for fraud (yes, we trust it) and we can't tell you why (no, we really can't tell you even if we wanted to). UNTIL customer goes away or the case gets enough upvotes on HN to be a PR problem Amazon: REPEAT We have removed your seller privileges due to a change in our policies we didn't communicate to anyone and you likely selling a brand that was recently put on a gated list or our ML system is thinking you are a fraud because you logged in in private mode. UNTIL customer goes away or hires a consulting company with ties to Amazon managers Apple: REPEAT We have placed your account under review with opaque "policy violation" but we won't tell you why (like Google we can't tell as some of our ML models have good day flagging you for reasons known only to them). Or you might have tweeted something 5 years ago against a company we just acquired. Well, bad luck. UNTIL developer goes away FAANG customer service in a nutshell.

fluder 7y ago
Similar story bro, techno giants fu us :(

crb002 7y ago

Sue them in Iowa State Court where the are building a a massive new data center. Recommend Attorney Gary Dickey or attorney Julia Ofenbakh.

mikepechadotcom 7y ago

Time to ditch native

msephton 7y ago

This is so disheartening! It is guilty until proven innocent. I've had similar experiences as a seller on eBay: when a buyer reports you they react in favour of the buyer because buyers make their business model work. I suspect it's the same here, that Apple have received some sort of complaint about the iOS app (given that the macOS app is unaffected) and the automatic "guilty until proven innocent" system has been activated. And sadly the only thing to do is wait for it to finish. It could be something like waiting 60 or 90 days without any further complaints of the same nature. You could hope for intervention by a sympathetic App Store employee or rep, but I don't know how likely that will be. To add insult to injury there is also the fact that this is an open source app and dishonest people are cloning it and selling it, and Apple are slow to take them down if they do at all.

hesburg 7y ago

Huh, I was waiting Apple to approve my app about 7 weeks.. I really started to wonder whole app development in IOS platform. Why in earth we need to pay 100 dollars to keep our Dev license and keep apps in store ? Anyway, android app development has less sandbox feeling at the moment..

fluder 7y ago

Some news. App approved without any clarifications. I am still dont know why updates was blocked. Investigation warning still exist in my account.