9 ms·

Kubernetes 1.16

162 points by onlydole 7y ago

whotheffknows 7y ago
I enjoy Kubernetes because it weeds me out from all the people who aren't used to actually having to read docs to understand the layered concepts of k8s as a networking model, of which there can me multiple opensource Implementations. The opsys bros I know who are used to hacking together docker-composes that are more insecure than your grandmother's internet explorer browser in 30 seconds and calling themselves geniuses fail miserably when they are left to design construct and optimise secure kubernetes clusters and elegantly port a variety of full stack web applications in a coat efficient manner. It requires planning and design. Just because you haven't invested hundreds of hours into reading the docs.and testing, and building k8s clusters for which the docs are incredibly useful... Also "kind" represents the type of k8s object, like service or deployment. It's not ambiguous at all, it just requires reading to the third paragraph of "general Kubernetes concepts" in the Kubernetes docs to understand it.
tomphoolery 7y ago
that owl looks pissed
- spydum 7y ago
  angry bird for sure
- sergiotapia 7y ago
  It's the face you make when working with Kubernetes
- dankohn1 7y ago
  That's Captain Kube. More info at https://phippy.io/ https://phippy.io/
  - hinkley 7y ago
    What the actual fuck.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      Cartoon giraffes in general look very disturbing to me. Generally the length of the neck and legs are about the same but somehow every cartoon giraffe has amputated legs.
      - hinkley 7y ago
        The horse with dwarfism and hightops is making me uncomfortable. But the gopher will haunt my dreams.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  That's the brother of the Duolingo owl.
bt848 7y ago
I wish their tech writers would give us more English and less jargon. I pondered these release notes and the documentation earlier today and I still can't puzzle out why "custom resource" is initialized as "CRD". And the rest of this gibberish is just meaningless. """A resource is an endpoint in the Kubernetes API that stores a collection of API objects of a certain kind.""" OK, almost completely free of meaning ... then later: """A declarative API allows you to declare or specify the desired state of your resource and tries to keep the current state of Kubernetes objects in sync with the desired state.""" But wait, I thought the resource _was_ an API endpoint? The API allows me to declare the desired state of my API? I know K8s is not Borg and I know a lot of xooglers hate Borg but at least the Borg documentation was concise and made sense.
- whotheffknows 7y ago
  I enjoy Kubernetes because it weeds me out from all the people who aren't used to actually having to read docs to understand the layered concepts of k8s as a networking model, of which there can be multiple opensource Implementations. The opsys bros I know who are used to hacking together docker-composes that are more insecure than your grandmother's internet explorer browser in 30 seconds, slapping a json parsing logger on it and calling themselves geniuses fail miserably when they are left to design construct and optimise secure kubernetes clusters and elegantly port a variety of full stack web applications in a cost efficient manner. It requires planning and design. Just because you haven't invested hundreds of hours into reading the docs and testing, and building k8s clusters for which the docs are incredibly useful doesn't mean you have to attack the verbage, just read the docs. If you can't do that then maybe your best investing your criticism into a domain of expertise you're actually knowledgeable and/or experienced in. Also "kind" represents the type of k8s object, like service or deployment. It's not ambiguous at all, it just requires reading to the third paragraph of "general Kubernetes concepts" in the Kubernetes docs to understand it.
- jacques_chester 7y ago
  I think this will be a due to multiple authors and the curse of the expert. Kubernetes is fairly gigantic now and continuing to spurt out in all sorts of directions, feature-wise. "The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes"[0] was published in February 2018 and nothing's slowed down. [0] https://gravitational.com/blog/kubernetes-release-cycle/# https://gravitational.com/blog/kubernetes-release-cycle/# (and the HN discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16285192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16285192)
quasarj 7y ago
Can it be installed, yet?
sergiotapia 7y ago
We're moving away from Kubernetes because managing even a simple implementation is a full-time job. Obviously Kubernetes is meant for enterprises, but I've seen seed round/series A startups with a small engineering team using it. We were at a crossroad. Either we hire an SRE that has extensive kubernetes experience for $130K/year or we move to a managed platform until we actually need those capabilities. We're happy with the move and the pressure relief is tremendous. Now we can focus on features and not whether or not deploying is using ENV vars from our local machines and causing the system to crash.
- organsnyder 7y ago
  In my experience, Kubernetes is a lot of work to install and maintain. However, I've found managed offerings—especially ones like Azure that actually abstract away the complexity (Amazon exposes all the nitty-gritty, in my experience)—make it easy to use for even smaller shops. Of course, not every workload benefits from the features k8s provides.
  - bproven 7y ago
    I agree on EKS,IMO is it an unfinished bare bones "managed" service. Upgrades of control plane and nodes is a royal PITA - very manual and error prone. In GKE it is literally 2 gcloud commands. I think AWS hamstrings kubernetes still bc it is holding onto ECS. Hopefully they see the light soon, beef it up and make it equal to AKS/GKE. At least make masters/control plane free...ugh
  - merb 7y ago
    did you ever looked at k3s? what is more difficult about k3s than managing ansible? what about kubespray? it's basically k8s managed via ansible? what makes it so difficult?
    - bpicolo 7y ago
      When folk want managed k8s, they effectively wanted something akin to a "serverless" compute pool that they point the k8s API at and worry about nothing else - not underlying hosts, networking configuration, storage, etc. The ideal is how close it gets to that. K3s still leaves hardware management to you.
jcastro 7y ago
Just a reminder to check out the API deprecations on 1.16: https://kubernetes.io/blog/2019/07/18/api-deprecations-in-1-16/ https://kubernetes.io/blog/2019/07/18/api-deprecations-in-1-...
- zeeZ 7y ago
  > DaemonSet, Deployment, StatefulSet, and ReplicaSet (in the extensions/v1beta1 and apps/v1beta2 API groups) That seems quite significant. I still come across those regularly.
  - wereHamster 7y ago
    You gave me a heart attack. I thought they were deprecating Deployment, StatefulSet… But it's only the old API versions they are deprecating, not the features themselves…
    - zeeZ 7y ago
      Sorry about that. Yeah I meant the old API groups that I still come across.
MichaelMoser123 7y ago
A question on endpoint slices:why dont they send patch updates? A patch is the delta that changes an object instance.
- haimez 7y ago
  Because safe generalized PATCH operations require the client and server to agree on the immediately prior state and the order of application of patches to avoid creating “Frankenstates”. They’re not a good general purpose API building block.
  - MichaelMoser123 7y ago
    The client could do a full list request when it starts to get the baseline and then listen for patch updates. That would be kind of an operator in reverse.
_-___________-_ 7y ago
Great to see IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack support in this release, if only in alpha state.
winrid 7y ago
So, do we expect Kubernetes to ever replace Borg?
- jbigelow76 7y ago
  That sounds like a technical question that was given a political answer. ("Kubernetes is so great we don't want to keep it all to ourselves here at Google, let's give it to an open source foundation!")
- emersonrsantos 7y ago
  Assuming that Borg it's proprietary (IE, zero documentation, no community, no real user cases outside of Google), yes. As all Google projects, let's wait its complexity doesn't collapse under its own weight, leaving no options but to move to somewhere simpler, which isn't on the horizon.
- dward 7y ago
  An ecosystem has evolved around Borg. Custom hardware, kernel, schedulers, telemetry, atomic clocks, networking, security, management... have all evolved around Borg proper to meet the "enterprise" needs of one of the largest enterprises in the world. It has many niche (i.e. not generally useful) cababilites built to service hardware melting XXX megawatt applications like web indexing, gmail, colossus. Even if Kubernetes targeted this customer, Borg has a significant head start. At this point the Borg ecosystem is almost old enough to by cigarettes in Mountain View.
  - ngrilly 7y ago
    Custom hardware? What kind and how is it related to Borg?
znpy 7y ago
My biggest quarrel with kubernetes is that its API Reference often contains broken link to non-existing documentation page, usually pages that have been moved somewhere else (but who knows where?).

162 points by onlydole 7y ago

I enjoy Kubernetes because it weeds me out from all the people who aren't used to actually having to read docs to understand the layered concepts of k8s as a networking model, of which there can me multiple opensource Implementations. The opsys bros I know who are used to hacking together docker-composes that are more insecure than your grandmother's internet explorer browser in 30 seconds and calling themselves geniuses fail miserably when they are left to design construct and optimise secure kubernetes clusters and elegantly port a variety of full stack web applications in a coat efficient manner. It requires planning and design. Just because you haven't invested hundreds of hours into reading the docs.and testing, and building k8s clusters for which the docs are incredibly useful... Also "kind" represents the type of k8s object, like service or deployment. It's not ambiguous at all, it just requires reading to the third paragraph of "general Kubernetes concepts" in the Kubernetes docs to understand it.

tomphoolery 7y ago

that owl looks pissed

spydum 7y ago
angry bird for sure
sergiotapia 7y ago
It's the face you make when working with Kubernetes
dankohn1 7y ago
That's Captain Kube. More info at https://phippy.io/ https://phippy.io/
- hinkley 7y ago
  What the actual fuck.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    Cartoon giraffes in general look very disturbing to me. Generally the length of the neck and legs are about the same but somehow every cartoon giraffe has amputated legs.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      The horse with dwarfism and hightops is making me uncomfortable. But the gopher will haunt my dreams.
de_watcher 7y ago
That's the brother of the Duolingo owl.

bt848 7y ago

I wish their tech writers would give us more English and less jargon. I pondered these release notes and the documentation earlier today and I still can't puzzle out why "custom resource" is initialized as "CRD". And the rest of this gibberish is just meaningless. """A resource is an endpoint in the Kubernetes API that stores a collection of API objects of a certain kind.""" OK, almost completely free of meaning ... then later: """A declarative API allows you to declare or specify the desired state of your resource and tries to keep the current state of Kubernetes objects in sync with the desired state.""" But wait, I thought the resource _was_ an API endpoint? The API allows me to declare the desired state of my API? I know K8s is not Borg and I know a lot of xooglers hate Borg but at least the Borg documentation was concise and made sense.

whotheffknows 7y ago
I enjoy Kubernetes because it weeds me out from all the people who aren't used to actually having to read docs to understand the layered concepts of k8s as a networking model, of which there can be multiple opensource Implementations. The opsys bros I know who are used to hacking together docker-composes that are more insecure than your grandmother's internet explorer browser in 30 seconds, slapping a json parsing logger on it and calling themselves geniuses fail miserably when they are left to design construct and optimise secure kubernetes clusters and elegantly port a variety of full stack web applications in a cost efficient manner. It requires planning and design. Just because you haven't invested hundreds of hours into reading the docs and testing, and building k8s clusters for which the docs are incredibly useful doesn't mean you have to attack the verbage, just read the docs. If you can't do that then maybe your best investing your criticism into a domain of expertise you're actually knowledgeable and/or experienced in. Also "kind" represents the type of k8s object, like service or deployment. It's not ambiguous at all, it just requires reading to the third paragraph of "general Kubernetes concepts" in the Kubernetes docs to understand it.
jacques_chester 7y ago
I think this will be a due to multiple authors and the curse of the expert. Kubernetes is fairly gigantic now and continuing to spurt out in all sorts of directions, feature-wise. "The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes"[0] was published in February 2018 and nothing's slowed down. [0] https://gravitational.com/blog/kubernetes-release-cycle/# https://gravitational.com/blog/kubernetes-release-cycle/# (and the HN discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16285192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16285192)

quasarj 7y ago

Can it be installed, yet?

sergiotapia 7y ago

We're moving away from Kubernetes because managing even a simple implementation is a full-time job. Obviously Kubernetes is meant for enterprises, but I've seen seed round/series A startups with a small engineering team using it. We were at a crossroad. Either we hire an SRE that has extensive kubernetes experience for $130K/year or we move to a managed platform until we actually need those capabilities. We're happy with the move and the pressure relief is tremendous. Now we can focus on features and not whether or not deploying is using ENV vars from our local machines and causing the system to crash.

organsnyder 7y ago
In my experience, Kubernetes is a lot of work to install and maintain. However, I've found managed offerings—especially ones like Azure that actually abstract away the complexity (Amazon exposes all the nitty-gritty, in my experience)—make it easy to use for even smaller shops. Of course, not every workload benefits from the features k8s provides.
- bproven 7y ago
  I agree on EKS,IMO is it an unfinished bare bones "managed" service. Upgrades of control plane and nodes is a royal PITA - very manual and error prone. In GKE it is literally 2 gcloud commands. I think AWS hamstrings kubernetes still bc it is holding onto ECS. Hopefully they see the light soon, beef it up and make it equal to AKS/GKE. At least make masters/control plane free...ugh
- merb 7y ago
  did you ever looked at k3s? what is more difficult about k3s than managing ansible? what about kubespray? it's basically k8s managed via ansible? what makes it so difficult?
  - bpicolo 7y ago
    When folk want managed k8s, they effectively wanted something akin to a "serverless" compute pool that they point the k8s API at and worry about nothing else - not underlying hosts, networking configuration, storage, etc. The ideal is how close it gets to that. K3s still leaves hardware management to you.

jcastro 7y ago

Just a reminder to check out the API deprecations on 1.16: https://kubernetes.io/blog/2019/07/18/api-deprecations-in-1-16/ https://kubernetes.io/blog/2019/07/18/api-deprecations-in-1-...

zeeZ 7y ago
> DaemonSet, Deployment, StatefulSet, and ReplicaSet (in the extensions/v1beta1 and apps/v1beta2 API groups) That seems quite significant. I still come across those regularly.
- wereHamster 7y ago
  You gave me a heart attack. I thought they were deprecating Deployment, StatefulSet… But it's only the old API versions they are deprecating, not the features themselves…
  - zeeZ 7y ago
    Sorry about that. Yeah I meant the old API groups that I still come across.

MichaelMoser123 7y ago

A question on endpoint slices:why dont they send patch updates? A patch is the delta that changes an object instance.

haimez 7y ago
Because safe generalized PATCH operations require the client and server to agree on the immediately prior state and the order of application of patches to avoid creating “Frankenstates”. They’re not a good general purpose API building block.
- MichaelMoser123 7y ago
  The client could do a full list request when it starts to get the baseline and then listen for patch updates. That would be kind of an operator in reverse.

_-___________-_ 7y ago

Great to see IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack support in this release, if only in alpha state.

winrid 7y ago

So, do we expect Kubernetes to ever replace Borg?

jbigelow76 7y ago
That sounds like a technical question that was given a political answer. ("Kubernetes is so great we don't want to keep it all to ourselves here at Google, let's give it to an open source foundation!")
emersonrsantos 7y ago
Assuming that Borg it's proprietary (IE, zero documentation, no community, no real user cases outside of Google), yes. As all Google projects, let's wait its complexity doesn't collapse under its own weight, leaving no options but to move to somewhere simpler, which isn't on the horizon.
dward 7y ago
An ecosystem has evolved around Borg. Custom hardware, kernel, schedulers, telemetry, atomic clocks, networking, security, management... have all evolved around Borg proper to meet the "enterprise" needs of one of the largest enterprises in the world. It has many niche (i.e. not generally useful) cababilites built to service hardware melting XXX megawatt applications like web indexing, gmail, colossus. Even if Kubernetes targeted this customer, Borg has a significant head start. At this point the Borg ecosystem is almost old enough to by cigarettes in Mountain View.
- ngrilly 7y ago
  Custom hardware? What kind and how is it related to Borg?

znpy 7y ago

My biggest quarrel with kubernetes is that its API Reference often contains broken link to non-existing documentation page, usually pages that have been moved somewhere else (but who knows where?).