11 ms·

Young People Are Going to Save Us All from Office Life

88 points by dpflan 7y ago

rootusrootus 7y ago
A smart company would see this as a win. By getting more flexible work schedules and locations, people are allowing work to happen during what would have been off time, even during vacation. For a lot of jobs this probably works out to more work getting done than a forced 8-hours-in-the-seat plan.
- cgs 7y ago
  It really has to be part of the company culture and a top-down process. If the higher-ups are on the forced 8-hours-in-the-seat plan, then why should the employees get more freedom than them? There's an unspoken "if I'm going to suffer, so are you!"
- dominotw 7y ago
  I've worked at way too many places where ppl just chill at home most of the time.
  - echelon 7y ago
    Were these effective teams/companies? It doesn't sound like it. What went wrong? Could you see it working right?
  - mreome 7y ago
    In my experience these kind of people just chill in the office if they are forced to come in, but appear busy by proximity and association with their coworkers. When the most important metric is work-done and not butt-in-seat-hours, it can actually be easier for (effective) managers to filter out the ineffective employees.
- dole 7y ago
  Besides the obvious flexible time benefits, this shifts a lot of accountability and responsibility from upper management down to lower levels. It's also a nice perceived "gift" or "compensation" from up on high without having to pay out actual monetary raises or bonuses.
bighi 7y ago
> A client calls me at 8 o’clock at night and I’m happy to talk to them It doesn't look like saving us from anything. It seems horrible.
- jpollock 7y ago
  Speaking from personal experience, if you allow out-of-hours calls, they creep in and become the norm. Then you're expected to both be at work during work hours for meetings and to take the out of hours meetings too. This can be perfectly acceptable, I was happy to do it for a previous employer. I was also compensated for it.
  - mreome 7y ago
    I don't think that's what the article is describing though. It's talking more about allowing off-hour calls/work/etc, but dropping the expectation of being at work during "normal work hours." Just a general flexibility to set your schedule as long as you're getting your work done.
    - jpollock 7y ago
      The way it happens is: 1) you get asked to take out of hours client meetings. 2) those become regular. 3) you end up on a project which is high priority. 4) those have daily standups to make the schedule. 5) that becomes regular. Congratulations, you've now got both out-of-hours and in-hours meetings, frequently at 10AM and 10PM. Even if the offset is a "Tuesday/Thursday WFH", that will eventually become consumed by a scheduled something in the face of some time pressure. For example, we have regular "no meeting weeks", and the team just scheduled one. However, everyone on Project Y, had daily standups. We were even told "no meeting week doesn't apply to you". Another piece of well-earned experience is what happens with a company phone out of hours. When I did that, I got pinged by well meaning ops people when they started looking at their bug queue. The only problem? I was in GMT-7, and they were in GMT+3. If it's important, they can page me, instead of messaging me. Again, I can be happy to do this. If I believe in the company mission, and/or I'm compensated for it. I need to negotiate with my partner, but that's what being in a relationship is all about.
foobar_ 7y ago
9-6 is slavery. Slaves never had the luxury of choosing their time.
- inscionent 7y ago
  In a capitalist system you are either an asset that can be leveraged or a liability.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  I wouldn't exactly call it slavery, but it's indentured servitude at the societal level. There's no company forcing anyone to work for them, and society technically doesn't force you to work, but if you want to be a part of society you're almost certainly going to be doing something you don't like from 9 to 5 and commuting for 2 hours. You can stay on the plantation and have your basic needs met if you willingly serve the system. I'm not making a value judgment by pointing this out, but that's the way it is.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > but that's the way it is. And the way it's always been. And the way it will always be as long as humans are self-interested and in competition with each other for resources. Welcome to life (it's the same for all other species, btw)!
- ssully 7y ago
  This is an embarrassing comment that lacks any understanding of what slavery was actually like.
  - darpa_escapee 7y ago
    Not really, it's a very old observation. For example, Cicero observed that "whoever gives his labor for money sells himself and puts himself in the rank of slaves" And there are many types of slavery that are not chattel slavery.
    - 7y ago
eumenides1 7y ago
What I like about young people is their unapologetic way of asking for things whether they deserve it or not. Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where. Sometimes, it's ridiculous. "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Sometimes, it makes me re-think what and why we do things. This is how we move forward. Case in point, "I'd like a day off. I need a mental health day because someone tried to break into my house last night and I'm freaked out" Mental health days a total luxury, but if you think about it, there are days we need off because we are going to unproductive regardless. It can be abused, but it can also be useful. Context and Manager discretion matters. Young People aren't going to save us from the office, but they are going to challenge our assumptions and it's our duty to listen and change the office as needed.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  > "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Why is this ridiculous?
  - mreome 7y ago
    This seems like a very honest way to ask. They're just trying to take a day off to have some fun and relax (which is perfectly reasonable). But they're not making up an excuse about being sick, or having a family obligations, they are being clear that it's a low priority bit of fun giving their Boss a chance to say something like "We're going to be swamped today/then, how about Monday when we'll be slow?" I wish more employees/employers could embrace this level of mature honesty.
  - dymk 7y ago
    Go drink in the evening when the company isn’t operating Edit: so sensitive! I guess I’m the only person here that gets PTO :)
    - briankelly 7y ago
      Can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.
synlatexc 7y ago
Glad some companies are coming around to to this. People have different values and work styles, and for too long there has been just one option on the white-collar work menu: 40-60 hours, mostly at a desk.
arbitrary_name 7y ago
I work as a consultant, with sone stints in industry. My 2 cents is: - trust me to manage my time as needed. If i dont have any urgent priorities, i will drop down a gear. If i have priority tasks, they will get done on time and to spec, guaranteed. - give me flexibility, it is worth more than money. Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish late can save me hours of commute time, flight costs, etc. It shows me you value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk. - understand that i consider my work holistically: for example, letting me bail early on fridays gives me a level of joy that helps me advocate for you as an employer and makes me forgive a lot of your shortcomings. All in all, us young people are not doing anything revolutionary but sometimes se arr more willing to cut through the bs and take what we need in order to be able to mentally and emotionally give what is demanded.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > trust me to manage my time as needed the 99% of jobs need the time to manage you, not the contrary. they are not task based, they are presence or hourly based. If you go to the bank, they need to be there. If you go to the hospital, they have to be there. If you go to a bar, they'll be there. From x to y. It's not about time management, it's about presence management. > It shows me you value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk Most of the time sitting at the desk is THE job. The guys that clean my office before I arrive would love to be sitting at the desk. > Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish late can save me hours of commute time, flight costs, etc That sounds good, but apart from edge cases, living close to where you work is almost always a smarter move than commuting. And most of the things you're talking about are easily gained with time. To trust people you have to know people. At my current job I had to punch in and out 4 times a day, 9-13, 14-18. After 9 months, more or less it, became 2 times a day, when you arrive in the morning and when you come back from lunch. Now I get in at 11 and go out at 17, with at least an hour of lunch break. Nobody says anything anymore.
yelloweyes 7y ago
I'm 27, never had a "proper" 9-5 type of job, and I've always wondered how do people with these types of jobs do things like taking their dog to the vet. In my country if you ask for time off to take your dog to the vet you'll definitely get weird looks. So how do they do it? Just lie and say you need to go to the bank? Just let their dog in pain?
- tw1010 7y ago
  What have you been doing if you haven't had a 9-5 job?
  - whytaka 7y ago
    Since getting my degree and entering the actual workforce (rather than summer employment and the like) I have always had a flexible schedule. I pretty much won't work for a company that would withhold that from me.
- phil248 7y ago
  It varies dramatically. Some people have to endure scorn from their managers and lose pay in order to handle important tasks in their lives. They may end up losing their jobs. Other people come and go as they please, just leaving a polite note for their coworkers about when they'll be back (or not). It's all dependent on the employer and manager and, in some cases, state laws. What I find confusing is how you imply that "going to the bank" is an OK reason to leave work, but taking a sick pet to the vet is weird? What country do you work in?
- wil421 7y ago
  I’ve never had to take time off for the Vet or doctors appointments. Including a lot of doctors appointments when my wife was pregnant. I ask my boss and he says ok I hope your dog is feeling better. 8-5 Megacorp job.
- cardiffspaceman 7y ago
  Your bank has the power to stay in business with only 10am-3pm hours, your dog has the "power" to bear the pain until you get up the nerve to lie and say you're going to the bank. I've heard that in the advanced nation of Germany lots of useful businesses aren't open when ordinary workers have time to go visit them, such as banks and electronics stores and grocery stores. If you work an extra hour for some reason you can't pick up food except at a stall in the train station?
tw1010 7y ago
Young people are the inexperienced, they're the ones who're gonna get squeezed into whatever shape employers set up. I used to think we were in for a big corporate culture shift, to more informality, more power to the worker, more acceptance of neurodiversity. That was in college, but my opinion completely switched once I entered the workforce and realized how the levers of food-controlling power work to either filter out or implicitly threaten any behavior that isn't suitable for the goals of those at the top.
jdlyga 7y ago
In the 90s, it was cubicles. The Dilbert and Office Space sensory deprivation chamber. Nowadays, it's the noisy and distracting open office environments where you're scrunched next to people who you probably aren't even working with. In the future, it's leaning towards remote work. Which sounds great on paper. But there's another whole level of tyranny with that. Only getting 15 minutes per day face to face with coworkers over video chat, the rest done asynchronously over Slack is very impersonal. Though maybe I'd trade that for being able to live in an actual house with a pool instead of squished into a tiny apartment.
- amwelles 7y ago
  I found semi-remote to be the best of both worlds. My office is a 35-minute commute (each way), so I work from home Monday through Thursday. I go into the office Friday mornings and leave after sharing lunch with coworkers to beat rush hour traffic. I have a membership to a coworking space if I need to get out of the house (which my company pays half of).
- ohdog 7y ago
  Mid 20's, first job was a small office, it was ok. Second job was in a cube farm, hated it. Current job is working remote, see my regional team once/twice a month. Been in this position for 1.5 years now and I'm ready for office life back, maybe that's just because i miss the social aspect, but i also get frustrated sometimes with not being able to get facetime with people. Would be nice to just grab lunch or hang out with people in different departments and see what they're working on.
  - ilaksh 7y ago
    Why can't you just message the people in other departments and ask them to Facetime you?
    - lostjohnny 7y ago
      exchanging ideas in person works better. after working home for 3 years, I missed being out of my house, even though I am not the most social person you'll find at my office. I think the balance is some remote, when you fill it, and the rest in a real office, with real people. secondly, go live close to the job, the closest possible. it takes me 15 minutes now from door to door and it made my life much better.
cryptozeus 7y ago
One thing I see as potential issue is isolation. Unless you have great social life around where you live, this kind of remote work becomes too lonely. Another thing is that I just dont see how something that requires group discussion and white boarding can be done without any time commitment from other remote employees. For work that can be done in silos may benefit with this kind of approach. May be I am wrong.
Tade0 7y ago
There are pitfalls in this approach as well. Each second of my work time is tracked via Toggl, which creates a good few second order effects. For example gone is "pooping on company time" - even when I'm in the office. Also it's currently 23:12 in my timezone and I still have more than an hour of work to do. This is something that happens more often than I would like to admit. That being said having to actually go places to work and arrive there at a specified hour at that would be hell for me.
pacala 7y ago
Life is grinding. We grind an office life because it's more comfortable than grinding the earth to grow food. We grind the earth because it's more comfortable than grinding the wilderness to gather food. We think we'd like is to roam the wilderness while expending the energy level of an office job. Not possible. No grinding, no life.
- levythe 7y ago
  To turn it around, if I'm going to grind for you, I had sure as hell better be properly compensated for the grind. If I hustle to get you what you need, you bet you're ass I'm going to expect a commensurate return. If there isn't a mutual benefit to my hustling, why would I put it in? What makes you so entitled to my time and effort that you can't make an equitable exchange for it?
  - pacala 7y ago
    Absolutely! Forget about you and me, the best grind is for one's loved ones.
- imtringued 7y ago
  The weird part is that the modern type of grinding gives you multiple orders of magnitude more rewards but to have access to the better way of grinding you need to increase your costs by multiple orders of magnitude.
- emiliobumachar 7y ago
  Tangential: there's a theory that hunting and gathering is more productive per work time than ancient farming. Farming won out because it favors centralization of power: it is more productive per area, so the chieftain can better keep an eye on a larger group, and it increases switching costs, so farmers will put up with more abuse.
mikelyons 7y ago
There are people out there who make a choice between an unauthorized day off, and suicide on the lunch break ...
asjw 7y ago
No, they are not. They are just going to make things miserable for the next generation, like everybody else do did.
SomeoneIT 7y ago
I think most people aren't seeing the forest through the trees here. Why do we work? To take care of our basic needs so we can have as much time as possible to live life, with the maximum ability (usually in the form of money) to do what makes us happy. Humanity has fallen into a trap where we think that we NEED a job. We need to take care of our basic needs, and nothing more unless we want to. We're getting to the point where, if we applied tech as such, it can start to handle most of our basic needs for us. Instead of having the mindset that robots are "stealing our jobs," why not look at it as a robot has opened up a lot more time for us to live our lives? We're unable to look at things this way because humanity has not yet reevaluated the way it integrates money and technology into society. A few people or companies are allowed to control the tech humanity has invented, and we're forced to pay them for its use. Tech is supposed to make our lives easier and instead we are allowing it to make our lives harder and more stressful. Money and labor within society need a complete overhaul ASAP. I think young people are simply waking up to the fact that their lives are finite and they can't wait 400 years for such changes to occur. It's now or it doesn't matter.

88 points by dpflan 7y ago

A smart company would see this as a win. By getting more flexible work schedules and locations, people are allowing work to happen during what would have been off time, even during vacation. For a lot of jobs this probably works out to more work getting done than a forced 8-hours-in-the-seat plan.

cgs 7y ago
It really has to be part of the company culture and a top-down process. If the higher-ups are on the forced 8-hours-in-the-seat plan, then why should the employees get more freedom than them? There's an unspoken "if I'm going to suffer, so are you!"
dominotw 7y ago
I've worked at way too many places where ppl just chill at home most of the time.
- echelon 7y ago
  Were these effective teams/companies? It doesn't sound like it. What went wrong? Could you see it working right?
- mreome 7y ago
  In my experience these kind of people just chill in the office if they are forced to come in, but appear busy by proximity and association with their coworkers. When the most important metric is work-done and not butt-in-seat-hours, it can actually be easier for (effective) managers to filter out the ineffective employees.
dole 7y ago
Besides the obvious flexible time benefits, this shifts a lot of accountability and responsibility from upper management down to lower levels. It's also a nice perceived "gift" or "compensation" from up on high without having to pay out actual monetary raises or bonuses.

bighi 7y ago

> A client calls me at 8 o’clock at night and I’m happy to talk to them It doesn't look like saving us from anything. It seems horrible.

jpollock 7y ago
Speaking from personal experience, if you allow out-of-hours calls, they creep in and become the norm. Then you're expected to both be at work during work hours for meetings and to take the out of hours meetings too. This can be perfectly acceptable, I was happy to do it for a previous employer. I was also compensated for it.
- mreome 7y ago
  I don't think that's what the article is describing though. It's talking more about allowing off-hour calls/work/etc, but dropping the expectation of being at work during "normal work hours." Just a general flexibility to set your schedule as long as you're getting your work done.
  - jpollock 7y ago
    The way it happens is: 1) you get asked to take out of hours client meetings. 2) those become regular. 3) you end up on a project which is high priority. 4) those have daily standups to make the schedule. 5) that becomes regular. Congratulations, you've now got both out-of-hours and in-hours meetings, frequently at 10AM and 10PM. Even if the offset is a "Tuesday/Thursday WFH", that will eventually become consumed by a scheduled something in the face of some time pressure. For example, we have regular "no meeting weeks", and the team just scheduled one. However, everyone on Project Y, had daily standups. We were even told "no meeting week doesn't apply to you". Another piece of well-earned experience is what happens with a company phone out of hours. When I did that, I got pinged by well meaning ops people when they started looking at their bug queue. The only problem? I was in GMT-7, and they were in GMT+3. If it's important, they can page me, instead of messaging me. Again, I can be happy to do this. If I believe in the company mission, and/or I'm compensated for it. I need to negotiate with my partner, but that's what being in a relationship is all about.

foobar_ 7y ago

9-6 is slavery. Slaves never had the luxury of choosing their time.

inscionent 7y ago
In a capitalist system you are either an asset that can be leveraged or a liability.
ravenstine 7y ago
I wouldn't exactly call it slavery, but it's indentured servitude at the societal level. There's no company forcing anyone to work for them, and society technically doesn't force you to work, but if you want to be a part of society you're almost certainly going to be doing something you don't like from 9 to 5 and commuting for 2 hours. You can stay on the plantation and have your basic needs met if you willingly serve the system. I'm not making a value judgment by pointing this out, but that's the way it is.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  > but that's the way it is. And the way it's always been. And the way it will always be as long as humans are self-interested and in competition with each other for resources. Welcome to life (it's the same for all other species, btw)!
ssully 7y ago
This is an embarrassing comment that lacks any understanding of what slavery was actually like.
- darpa_escapee 7y ago
  Not really, it's a very old observation. For example, Cicero observed that "whoever gives his labor for money sells himself and puts himself in the rank of slaves" And there are many types of slavery that are not chattel slavery.
  - 7y ago

eumenides1 7y ago

What I like about young people is their unapologetic way of asking for things whether they deserve it or not. Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where. Sometimes, it's ridiculous. "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Sometimes, it makes me re-think what and why we do things. This is how we move forward. Case in point, "I'd like a day off. I need a mental health day because someone tried to break into my house last night and I'm freaked out" Mental health days a total luxury, but if you think about it, there are days we need off because we are going to unproductive regardless. It can be abused, but it can also be useful. Context and Manager discretion matters. Young People aren't going to save us from the office, but they are going to challenge our assumptions and it's our duty to listen and change the office as needed.

newnewpdro 7y ago
> "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Why is this ridiculous?
- mreome 7y ago
  This seems like a very honest way to ask. They're just trying to take a day off to have some fun and relax (which is perfectly reasonable). But they're not making up an excuse about being sick, or having a family obligations, they are being clear that it's a low priority bit of fun giving their Boss a chance to say something like "We're going to be swamped today/then, how about Monday when we'll be slow?" I wish more employees/employers could embrace this level of mature honesty.
- dymk 7y ago
  Go drink in the evening when the company isn’t operating Edit: so sensitive! I guess I’m the only person here that gets PTO :)
  - briankelly 7y ago
    Can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

synlatexc 7y ago

Glad some companies are coming around to to this. People have different values and work styles, and for too long there has been just one option on the white-collar work menu: 40-60 hours, mostly at a desk.

arbitrary_name 7y ago

I work as a consultant, with sone stints in industry. My 2 cents is: - trust me to manage my time as needed. If i dont have any urgent priorities, i will drop down a gear. If i have priority tasks, they will get done on time and to spec, guaranteed. - give me flexibility, it is worth more than money. Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish late can save me hours of commute time, flight costs, etc. It shows me you value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk. - understand that i consider my work holistically: for example, letting me bail early on fridays gives me a level of joy that helps me advocate for you as an employer and makes me forgive a lot of your shortcomings. All in all, us young people are not doing anything revolutionary but sometimes se arr more willing to cut through the bs and take what we need in order to be able to mentally and emotionally give what is demanded.

lostjohnny 7y ago
> trust me to manage my time as needed the 99% of jobs need the time to manage you, not the contrary. they are not task based, they are presence or hourly based. If you go to the bank, they need to be there. If you go to the hospital, they have to be there. If you go to a bar, they'll be there. From x to y. It's not about time management, it's about presence management. > It shows me you value me as a person, and not just me sitting in a desk Most of the time sitting at the desk is THE job. The guys that clean my office before I arrive would love to be sitting at the desk. > Letting me work a day or two remotely, start or finish late can save me hours of commute time, flight costs, etc That sounds good, but apart from edge cases, living close to where you work is almost always a smarter move than commuting. And most of the things you're talking about are easily gained with time. To trust people you have to know people. At my current job I had to punch in and out 4 times a day, 9-13, 14-18. After 9 months, more or less it, became 2 times a day, when you arrive in the morning and when you come back from lunch. Now I get in at 11 and go out at 17, with at least an hour of lunch break. Nobody says anything anymore.

yelloweyes 7y ago

I'm 27, never had a "proper" 9-5 type of job, and I've always wondered how do people with these types of jobs do things like taking their dog to the vet. In my country if you ask for time off to take your dog to the vet you'll definitely get weird looks. So how do they do it? Just lie and say you need to go to the bank? Just let their dog in pain?

tw1010 7y ago
What have you been doing if you haven't had a 9-5 job?
- whytaka 7y ago
  Since getting my degree and entering the actual workforce (rather than summer employment and the like) I have always had a flexible schedule. I pretty much won't work for a company that would withhold that from me.
phil248 7y ago
It varies dramatically. Some people have to endure scorn from their managers and lose pay in order to handle important tasks in their lives. They may end up losing their jobs. Other people come and go as they please, just leaving a polite note for their coworkers about when they'll be back (or not). It's all dependent on the employer and manager and, in some cases, state laws. What I find confusing is how you imply that "going to the bank" is an OK reason to leave work, but taking a sick pet to the vet is weird? What country do you work in?
wil421 7y ago
I’ve never had to take time off for the Vet or doctors appointments. Including a lot of doctors appointments when my wife was pregnant. I ask my boss and he says ok I hope your dog is feeling better. 8-5 Megacorp job.
cardiffspaceman 7y ago
Your bank has the power to stay in business with only 10am-3pm hours, your dog has the "power" to bear the pain until you get up the nerve to lie and say you're going to the bank. I've heard that in the advanced nation of Germany lots of useful businesses aren't open when ordinary workers have time to go visit them, such as banks and electronics stores and grocery stores. If you work an extra hour for some reason you can't pick up food except at a stall in the train station?

tw1010 7y ago

Young people are the inexperienced, they're the ones who're gonna get squeezed into whatever shape employers set up. I used to think we were in for a big corporate culture shift, to more informality, more power to the worker, more acceptance of neurodiversity. That was in college, but my opinion completely switched once I entered the workforce and realized how the levers of food-controlling power work to either filter out or implicitly threaten any behavior that isn't suitable for the goals of those at the top.

jdlyga 7y ago

In the 90s, it was cubicles. The Dilbert and Office Space sensory deprivation chamber. Nowadays, it's the noisy and distracting open office environments where you're scrunched next to people who you probably aren't even working with. In the future, it's leaning towards remote work. Which sounds great on paper. But there's another whole level of tyranny with that. Only getting 15 minutes per day face to face with coworkers over video chat, the rest done asynchronously over Slack is very impersonal. Though maybe I'd trade that for being able to live in an actual house with a pool instead of squished into a tiny apartment.

amwelles 7y ago
I found semi-remote to be the best of both worlds. My office is a 35-minute commute (each way), so I work from home Monday through Thursday. I go into the office Friday mornings and leave after sharing lunch with coworkers to beat rush hour traffic. I have a membership to a coworking space if I need to get out of the house (which my company pays half of).
ohdog 7y ago
Mid 20's, first job was a small office, it was ok. Second job was in a cube farm, hated it. Current job is working remote, see my regional team once/twice a month. Been in this position for 1.5 years now and I'm ready for office life back, maybe that's just because i miss the social aspect, but i also get frustrated sometimes with not being able to get facetime with people. Would be nice to just grab lunch or hang out with people in different departments and see what they're working on.
- ilaksh 7y ago
  Why can't you just message the people in other departments and ask them to Facetime you?
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    exchanging ideas in person works better. after working home for 3 years, I missed being out of my house, even though I am not the most social person you'll find at my office. I think the balance is some remote, when you fill it, and the rest in a real office, with real people. secondly, go live close to the job, the closest possible. it takes me 15 minutes now from door to door and it made my life much better.

cryptozeus 7y ago

One thing I see as potential issue is isolation. Unless you have great social life around where you live, this kind of remote work becomes too lonely. Another thing is that I just dont see how something that requires group discussion and white boarding can be done without any time commitment from other remote employees. For work that can be done in silos may benefit with this kind of approach. May be I am wrong.

Tade0 7y ago

There are pitfalls in this approach as well. Each second of my work time is tracked via Toggl, which creates a good few second order effects. For example gone is "pooping on company time" - even when I'm in the office. Also it's currently 23:12 in my timezone and I still have more than an hour of work to do. This is something that happens more often than I would like to admit. That being said having to actually go places to work and arrive there at a specified hour at that would be hell for me.

pacala 7y ago

Life is grinding. We grind an office life because it's more comfortable than grinding the earth to grow food. We grind the earth because it's more comfortable than grinding the wilderness to gather food. We think we'd like is to roam the wilderness while expending the energy level of an office job. Not possible. No grinding, no life.

levythe 7y ago
To turn it around, if I'm going to grind for you, I had sure as hell better be properly compensated for the grind. If I hustle to get you what you need, you bet you're ass I'm going to expect a commensurate return. If there isn't a mutual benefit to my hustling, why would I put it in? What makes you so entitled to my time and effort that you can't make an equitable exchange for it?
- pacala 7y ago
  Absolutely! Forget about you and me, the best grind is for one's loved ones.
imtringued 7y ago
The weird part is that the modern type of grinding gives you multiple orders of magnitude more rewards but to have access to the better way of grinding you need to increase your costs by multiple orders of magnitude.
emiliobumachar 7y ago
Tangential: there's a theory that hunting and gathering is more productive per work time than ancient farming. Farming won out because it favors centralization of power: it is more productive per area, so the chieftain can better keep an eye on a larger group, and it increases switching costs, so farmers will put up with more abuse.

mikelyons 7y ago

There are people out there who make a choice between an unauthorized day off, and suicide on the lunch break ...

asjw 7y ago

No, they are not. They are just going to make things miserable for the next generation, like everybody else do did.

SomeoneIT 7y ago

I think most people aren't seeing the forest through the trees here. Why do we work? To take care of our basic needs so we can have as much time as possible to live life, with the maximum ability (usually in the form of money) to do what makes us happy. Humanity has fallen into a trap where we think that we NEED a job. We need to take care of our basic needs, and nothing more unless we want to. We're getting to the point where, if we applied tech as such, it can start to handle most of our basic needs for us. Instead of having the mindset that robots are "stealing our jobs," why not look at it as a robot has opened up a lot more time for us to live our lives? We're unable to look at things this way because humanity has not yet reevaluated the way it integrates money and technology into society. A few people or companies are allowed to control the tech humanity has invented, and we're forced to pay them for its use. Tech is supposed to make our lives easier and instead we are allowing it to make our lives harder and more stressful. Money and labor within society need a complete overhaul ASAP. I think young people are simply waking up to the fact that their lives are finite and they can't wait 400 years for such changes to occur. It's now or it doesn't matter.