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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

339 points by spzx 7y ago

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ndidi 7y ago
Wait until they find out about all the fleshy spy devices that Israel planted in the Congress.
- deleted 7y ago
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buyingarmor 7y ago
Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Also the Mossad is working a lot with the secret service in the U.S I believe there is a deeper reason behind those actions that won't be revealed to us (it can also explain the lack of actions of the U.S towards this case)
- deleted 7y ago
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- deathhand 7y ago
  Leaks have shown that with the 5 eyes 'one hand washes another' and probably spying on US citizens on behest of the US.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    Israel isn’t part of five eyes.
    - corey_moncure 7y ago
      True but I don't think it refutes GP's central point. The intelligence community has their hands tied when it comes to their own citizens due to strong constitutional protections, so in order to get what they desire, they operate quasi-extrajudicially (i.e. exploit a loophole) where they just get a friendly foreign power to do the spying and then trade intelligence for intelligence on their own citizens. I'm pretty sure this kind of scheme is behind GP's post and such an arrangement is not limited to members of the five eyes.
- smileypete 7y ago
  >Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Not always; google for 'dancing israelis'
  - TKWasRight 7y ago
    Or USS Liberty
- TKWasRight 7y ago
  > Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Citation needed. We hear this all the time, but from where I stand it looks like a pretty one-sided "relationship." We give them billions every year while running a deficit and what do we get from it?
- yuft 7y ago
  Germany is an ally of the United States and yet... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german-chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-g... https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/europe/intelligence-spying-germany-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/europe/intelligence... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-spying-angela-merkel_n_4166326 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-spying-angela-merkel_n_416...
- nickik 7y ago
  So? Just because they work together doesn't mean they are not doing it. That's not how spying works. In fact, its well known with the intelligence community that Israel is by far the greatest intelligence now that Communism doesn't exist anymore.
ceejayoz 7y ago
It's common knowledge that Trump regularly uses a personal, non-secured iPhone to communicate with friends and advisers. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/24/18020746/president-donald-trump-iphone-personal-calls-china-russia-spies-eavesdropping https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/24/18020746/president-donal... It'd be malpractice by a major intelligence agency not to attempt this, and I'd suspect there are a bunch of these things from various countries (including allies) within range of the White House.
- ptah 7y ago
  why is this downvoted?
- jpmattia 7y ago
  > It'd be malpractice by a major intelligence agency not to attempt this And the countermeasure is so simple that even the most simple of simpletons can understand it. "Hey, this room is bugged. Don't talk there if you want a private conversation."
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    "Don't talk about classified stuff around the President because his phone is probably compromised" is easy to understand, but a difficult instruction to follow.
    - jpmattia 7y ago
      I was kinda assuming that the president would be the simpleton to figure out that the phone was bugged and take care of the issue. But perhaps I overestimate simpletons.
2rsf 7y ago
> Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
- yasp 7y ago
  https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2016-11-02/numec-affair-did-highly-enriched-uranium-us-aid-israels-nuclear-weapons-program https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2016-1...
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  In fairness, Israel claims they learned a lesson from that incident and implemented the policy you're quoting as a result. edit: Some weird downvotes here. I'm not saying I believe they don't actually spy, but they have made that promise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/israel-condemns-us-spying-nsa-edward-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/israel-condemn... > Since Pollard's conviction, Israel has promised not to spy on the US. Israeli ministers said on Sunday that Israel does not spy on the US president or defence secretary. "I think we should expect the same relations from the US," Steinitz said.
  - yasp 7y ago
    "Not to spy on the US" does not preclude "spying in the US". Also, what of spying on US citizens? And also, what good are promises from intelligence agencies, for whom lying is an essential part of the craft, and for which repercussions are nil?
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    > Israeli ministers said on Sunday that Israel does not spy on the US president or defence secretary OK so they don't spy on 2 very specific persons, what about the rest of the country? Plus trusting anything what Mosad says is like trusting Israelis that they don't have nuclear bombs and don't bomb their neighbors from obtaining the same... doesn't make any sense at all
  - cbzbc 7y ago
kryogen1c 7y ago
> The U.S. government concluded within the last two years that Israel was most likely behind > But unlike most other occasions I don't know if im spoiled by Wikipedia, or jaded from age, or wisened by age, or rightfully lost trust in the media, or wrongfully lost trust in the media, but i find myself entirely unwilling to accept to accept claims like this. Citation. Needed. In order to believe this article, i need to learn about this publication, and then learn about the author, and then learn about this article specifically. This shit is so much work. We need a new reporting format. Citationless articles are too infotainment-y for me now.
- shliachtx 7y ago
  Agreed. This is the same publication that insisted that a shadowy Jewish cabal is controlling Trump at Putin's behest. Edit: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/the-happy-go-lucky-jewish-group-that-connects-trump-and-putin-215007 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/the-happy-go... (The original hero image has been changed to something less ominous) https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/229930/politicos-dubious-chabad-story-receives-widespread-criticism https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/229930/politicos-dubious-ch...
  - jasonlotito 7y ago
    It's funny that you would post something like that without citation under a comment talking about citations.
    - shliachtx 7y ago
      You are right, I've updated my comment with sources.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
    Unfortunately very standard cherry picking facts article, the sad part is that it matched with the conspiracies of jews running the world. Unfortunately a lot of journalism coming from the American left lately gives me those American right wing radio vibes where everyone's the enemy, connected, planning to get you. I'm not American but it seems the two party system is absolutely ripping your country and society apart, but then again people say that this has worked well in the history and things balance out. Hard to take a rational view when things are emotional all around the world, people connected more than ever.
tempodox 7y ago
The commander-in-chief lets himself be spied upon by anyone and everyone. Looks like Trump is a clear and present danger to the national security of the US.
gnu8 7y ago
I still don’t understand how the Stingray is a saleable product. There’s no way such a device could obtain FCC certification, or for a prospective user to obtain a license to operate one. So notwithstanding the fact that the government wants these things, Harris shouldn’t be making or selling these things, and rightfully belongs in jail.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > The FCC's involvement in cell site simulators began years ago when it first approved commercial sales to law enforcement. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/fcc-created-stingray-problem-now-it-needs-fix-it https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/fcc-created-stingray-p...
- souterrain 7y ago
  Harris can manufacture this under the guise it’s never intended for use within the U.S. They can claim it is for counter-insurgency surveillance in certain central Asian countries. Alternatively, they could seek FCC OET authorization for the product as test equipment, but I doubt it, and my quick searches have yielded nothing. I suspect this is why Harris, FBI and other LEAs conceal their use [1]. 1. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-stingray-murder-evidence-suppressed-20160425-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-stingray-mu...
dahart 7y ago
> The miniature surveillance devices, colloquially known as “StingRays,” mimic regular cell towers to fool cell phones into giving them their locations and identity information. I realize that roaming is a thing, and I don’t know how cellular protocols work, but I am curious why at this point phones don’t connect to towers anonymously, authenticate towers by default, encrypt identity, etc..? Surely the phone could be made to ask you before attaching to a service of unknown origin without compromising you, especially in higher security scenarios. Is this difficult or impossible to do for some reason? Is it already in the works and just not here yet?
- 2rsf 7y ago
  It could be a man in the middle attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker#Interception_of_communications_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker#Interce... That is possible: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221005667_A_man-in-the-middle_attack_on_UMTS https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221005667_A_man-in-...
- Miner49er 7y ago
  Even if it is possible, why would it ever be implemented? The vast majority of users don't care about this. And even if they did, it's not like there's any real competition in cellular carriers, so there still wouldn't be incentive for carriers to implement this. On the flip side, there is lots of demand from law enforcement for them _not_ to. Law enforcement uses stingrays and would certainly pressure carriers to not implement something that stops them from continuing.
  - dahart 7y ago
    Isn't that a bit like asking why HTTPS would ever be implemented, and saying that the vast majority of users don't care about internet privacy, and law enforcement would very much prefer we don't use encryption? The reason I see it being implemented is to prevent StingRay from being a thing.
    - smhenderson 7y ago
mmoez 7y ago
As Robert Greene said, "You have more to fear from your friends than your enemies."
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?
- mamon 7y ago
  You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    > If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers You're downvoted, but this has absolutely been my observation as well
    - BlackRing 7y ago
      He's not wrong. They don't provide anything we couldn't get elsewhere.
    - alfromspace 7y ago
      I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. AIPAC alone spends almost $70 million per year, and we're supposed to pretend lobbying has nothing to do with our seemingly unconditional support for Israel?
      - partialrecall 7y ago
        > I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. Yes, that situation seems comparable to the smears of antisemitism thrown against Jeremy Corbyn too.
stefd 7y ago
Wondering if this might explain similar spying around the Canadian parliament... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-csis-cell-surveillance-1.4701449 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-csis-cell-surveillance...
ntetsuo 7y ago
“On the other hand, guess what we do in Tel Aviv?”
uasm 7y ago
No proof, no citations, no names. A lot of third person language. Anonymous "former officials". Great journalism right there!
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record.
  - uasm 7y ago
    > "On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record." Honest question: Would WikiLeaks "work" if all we had was anonymous "former officials" making broad/general statements, providing no proof whatsoever? What about Snowden's leaks? Imagine a really long article on Politico listing every single thing exposed in the Snowden docs, but without the names/documents/specifics. In a style very similar to what we have here in this Politico piece. Without us even knowing it was leaked by Snowden, but by some random "former NSA official". Look, I'm not saying this Politico piece is right or wrong. All I'm saying is - this piece is making very big statements, backed by absolutely no proof whatsoever. And yet people are taking out the pitchforks... this isn't journalism, it's just spreading unsubstantiated FUD. And we should be discouraging this, not defending it.
factsaresacred 7y ago
> In 2010, the secret covers of a Mossad hit team, some of whom had been posing as tennis players, were blown after almost 30 minutes of surveillance video was posted online of them going through a luxury Dubai hotel where they killed a top Hamas terrorist in his room. For those who have not yet seen the footage in question, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJujIwtdk8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJujIwtdk8w Captivating stuff.
- electriclove 7y ago
  Thank you for sharing! It is quite incredible how they were able to piece all that footage together!
hsnewman 7y ago
I know that NSO group, based in Israel, has advanced cell phone hacking skills. 60 minutes did an article on it a while back: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interview-with-ceo-of-nso-group-israeli-spyware-maker-on-fighting-terror-khashoggi-murder-and-saudi-arabia-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interview-with-ceo-of-nso-group...
not_a_cop75 7y ago
No...not our "best" ally! I don't believe it!
tryitnow 7y ago
If this is true can you blame the Israeli government? The US has an incredibly volatile, unpredictable president. Israel is a country surrounded by states that are openly hostile and the continued survival of Israel depends, in part, on the behavior of the US. I would be disappointed if Israel wasn't doing something like this. And I'm willing to bet the US government does this sort of stuff all over the world, including Israel.
- guelo 7y ago
  Yes I can blame them. Get the fuck out of my country. And stop buying my politicians.
  - bGriz 7y ago
    > Get the fuck out of my country. Not going to get anything done saying that. > And stop buying my politicians. Lobbying reform is an option to improve the situation you're highlighting. https://www.citizen.org/article/lobbying-reform/ https://www.citizen.org/article/lobbying-reform/ And to be more specific, you may be concerned about the AIPAC lobby, among others. https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/
- balls187 7y ago
  You don't have to bet. Wikileaks publicized that very fact that US (NSA) spies (monitors) it's allies back in 2013.
stateofnounion 7y ago
Not surprising. It's intriguing to think about how this might intersect with the recently departed Jeffery: https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy-story-jeffrey-epstein-scandal/261172/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy...
- imglorp 7y ago
  Oh boy, that article series needs more attention. On a similar note, just regarding intercept material from the stingrays in OP, the fact that there AREN'T a bunch of White House phone conversations posted to the internet may tell us something about whoever placed them. They could be posted any time to embarrass/indict/etc the administration but instead they're being held for leverage.
- hbosch 7y ago
  There are a lot of people in this thread oddly pointing links to this "Mint Press News" site. For anyone curious and reading my comment, don't click. It's a propaganda site and has almost no reputation for trustworthiness or accuracy.
exabrial 7y ago
Sort of related: if you're ever in DC on the Hill, a trip to the Spy Museum is a worth it if you're into that kind of thing.
dstola 7y ago
Feels like there is quite a bit of an attempt to sway the conversation in the comments
- TKWasRight 7y ago
  In what way?
cwkoss 7y ago
With the billions of dollars the US gives to Israel as foreign aid every year, we are arguably funding the spying on ourselves.
scottlocklin 7y ago
It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught-spying-in-washington-again.html https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-congress-1451425210 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial-directly-contradicted-secret-nsa-documents/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278 https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly... 1999: https://nypost.com/1999/03/03/israel-blackmailed-bill-with-monica-tapes-spy-hunt-ended-after-mossad-bugged-prez-sex-chats-book-exclusive/ https://nypost.com/1999/03/03/israel-blackmailed-bill-with-m... 2019: https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/trained-in-israeli-intelligence-agencies-former-spies-get-involved-in-us-elections-as-private-sector-information-warriors/ https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/trained-in-israeli-intellige... 2018: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-firm-black-cube-says-hired-by-business-entity-not-trump-1.6063162 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-firm-bl... 2018: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-cit... First page of a google search on "Israel spying on US" excluding last few weeks. This one's my favorite though: Netanyahu and some Hollywood freak were apparently involved in stealing atomb bomb triggers from the US: https://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-implicated-in-nuclear-smuggling-from-u-s-big-story-in-israel/ https://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-implicated-in-nucle... I mean, they're in non compliance with the NPT, so they shouldn't receive any foreign aid, but good luck on that.
- chimi 7y ago
  Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.
wahern 7y ago
2019: > An Israeli Embassy spokesperson, Elad Strohmayer, denied that Israel placed the devices and said: “These allegations are absolute nonsense. Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period.” 2014 (https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757): > Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that such outrageous, false allegations are being directed against Israel." I have to say, placing stingrays around D.C. is pretty bold, but not exactly surprising. It's not even an open secret that Israel aggressively spies in the U.S.; it just is what it is, I guess.
- writepub 7y ago
  And how's this different from America spying on Israel, or any of the five eyes nations it claims to not spy against? Every country spies on everyone else.
  - wahern 7y ago
    Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face. When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international community, and substantial consequences in terms of further reduced intelligence cooperation. It's worthwhile to mention that U.S. and German intelligence sharing is much more limited than between the U.S. and Israel, which is why Obama approved the tapping in the first place. When U.S. espionage efforts in Japan were publicized, Obama ended up apologizing to Shinzo Abe. AFAIK, the only other ally in recent U.S. history (past 50 years) that came close to the extent and depth of Israeli espionage is France. But nobody in the U.S. gave them a pass, either. There are countless ways to distinguish Israeli efforts. Attempts to equivocate here basically amount to whataboutism. Until recently it would be hard to make strong value judgments because Israel is of course a sovereign nation with its own self interests, and their obnoxious spying seemed harmless enough considering they know how to keep a secret and were careful not to obstruct finalized Washington policy. But the problem with spying is that it can injure trust, and allies need to be able to trust each other as much as practicable. Now that Israel doesn't even pretend to be non-partisan wrt American politics, and even aggressively lobbied to kill the signed & sealed Iran nuclear deal, their efforts have arguably crossed a line even given the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel. (OTOH, I wonder which came first, the stingrays or Trumps public disclosure of secret Israeli intelligence. Perhaps Israel took the risk partly because of their distrust in Trump, either his honesty generally or at least his ability to keep a secret.)
age_bronze 7y ago
Blood libel. I've yet to see one real evidence for real spying, not some black cube (who are greedy pieces of shit, but are not part of Israel government), or some boogeyman story of possible suspicion. Truth is, Israel barely has anything to gain while it has so much to lose from such espionage. It's not worth it. US is just so damn paranoid, that it will never believe that. These allegations are the new jewish blood libels, the "jews control everything and are omnipotent".
- chimi 7y ago
  > Truth is, Israel barely has anything to gain Without support from the USA, Israel would LOSE everything.
  - age_bronze 7y ago
    Exactly, why would you ever risk that? Would hearing trump talk to whatever on the phone, worth the huge risk? You can talk to him yourself, why would you ever risk pissing the US off for just that?
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    I dunno, they have Jericho missiles with nukes capable of reaching Los Angeles; I think they'll be fine without US financial support. Which, BTW, is against the NPT because they have nukes. https://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2018/09/16/americans-would-limit-aid-to-nuclear-israel/ https://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2018/09/16/american...
    - age_bronze 7y ago
      Great comment, if anyone else needed any better confirmation that this scottlocklin dude is some anti-semite, there you have it. Expected nothing less from you.
      - scottlocklin 7y ago
        So... it is antisemitic to notice that the Jericho-2 missile, equipped with nukes is capable of reaching LA? It is, you know! This is a fact. https://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/jericho-2.htm https://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/jericho-2.htm Also, it is illegal for the US to give foreign aid to non NPT compliant countries. Israel is a non-NPT compliant country. I've been on here for years; under my real name. You just showed up shouting about Israel. Are you a Hasabra troll being paid to do this? https://left.wikia.org/wiki/Hasbara_troll https://left.wikia.org/wiki/Hasbara_troll
zed88 7y ago
Tbh...with the kind of politics in the world, I won't be surprised if US is doing the same to Israelis or some other country. Another example would be Turkey bugging the Saudi Embassy in Khashoggi killing. But the other thing that irks me is how easily one can get labelled an antisemite for an honest cricism of Israeli politics.
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fortran77 7y ago
Pure nonsense. Very little evidence. Someone is simply speculating. Why does Hacker News allow these unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory discussions?
pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
Hitler was right?
elady 7y ago
At the end of the day it's all business and all govts are involved....
thefounder 7y ago
Israel spies on the US and the US spies on Israel (and everyone else)...what are the news?
apta 7y ago
Why the antiemetism?
stunt 7y ago
That’s what countries do! Right? Everybody spies on others. Pretty sure the US and the UK are spying on each other too despite both being five eyes members.
test7 7y ago
Americans are no lesser, they have spies too.

339 points by spzx 7y ago

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ndidi 7y ago

Wait until they find out about all the fleshy spy devices that Israel planted in the Congress.

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buyingarmor 7y ago

Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Also the Mossad is working a lot with the secret service in the U.S I believe there is a deeper reason behind those actions that won't be revealed to us (it can also explain the lack of actions of the U.S towards this case)

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deathhand 7y ago
Leaks have shown that with the 5 eyes 'one hand washes another' and probably spying on US citizens on behest of the US.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  Israel isn’t part of five eyes.
  - corey_moncure 7y ago
    True but I don't think it refutes GP's central point. The intelligence community has their hands tied when it comes to their own citizens due to strong constitutional protections, so in order to get what they desire, they operate quasi-extrajudicially (i.e. exploit a loophole) where they just get a friendly foreign power to do the spying and then trade intelligence for intelligence on their own citizens. I'm pretty sure this kind of scheme is behind GP's post and such an arrangement is not limited to members of the five eyes.
smileypete 7y ago
>Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Not always; google for 'dancing israelis'
- TKWasRight 7y ago
  Or USS Liberty
TKWasRight 7y ago
> Israel and the U.S are extremely strong alliance Citation needed. We hear this all the time, but from where I stand it looks like a pretty one-sided "relationship." We give them billions every year while running a deficit and what do we get from it?
yuft 7y ago
Germany is an ally of the United States and yet... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german-chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-g... https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/europe/intelligence-spying-germany-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/europe/intelligence... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-spying-angela-merkel_n_4166326 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-spying-angela-merkel_n_416...
nickik 7y ago
So? Just because they work together doesn't mean they are not doing it. That's not how spying works. In fact, its well known with the intelligence community that Israel is by far the greatest intelligence now that Communism doesn't exist anymore.

ceejayoz 7y ago

It's common knowledge that Trump regularly uses a personal, non-secured iPhone to communicate with friends and advisers. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/24/18020746/president-donald-trump-iphone-personal-calls-china-russia-spies-eavesdropping https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/24/18020746/president-donal... It'd be malpractice by a major intelligence agency not to attempt this, and I'd suspect there are a bunch of these things from various countries (including allies) within range of the White House.

ptah 7y ago
why is this downvoted?
jpmattia 7y ago
> It'd be malpractice by a major intelligence agency not to attempt this And the countermeasure is so simple that even the most simple of simpletons can understand it. "Hey, this room is bugged. Don't talk there if you want a private conversation."
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  "Don't talk about classified stuff around the President because his phone is probably compromised" is easy to understand, but a difficult instruction to follow.
  - jpmattia 7y ago
    I was kinda assuming that the president would be the simpleton to figure out that the phone was bugged and take care of the issue. But perhaps I overestimate simpletons.

2rsf 7y ago

> Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

yasp 7y ago
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2016-11-02/numec-affair-did-highly-enriched-uranium-us-aid-israels-nuclear-weapons-program https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2016-1...
ceejayoz 7y ago
In fairness, Israel claims they learned a lesson from that incident and implemented the policy you're quoting as a result. edit: Some weird downvotes here. I'm not saying I believe they don't actually spy, but they have made that promise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/israel-condemns-us-spying-nsa-edward-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/israel-condemn... > Since Pollard's conviction, Israel has promised not to spy on the US. Israeli ministers said on Sunday that Israel does not spy on the US president or defence secretary. "I think we should expect the same relations from the US," Steinitz said.
- yasp 7y ago
  "Not to spy on the US" does not preclude "spying in the US". Also, what of spying on US citizens? And also, what good are promises from intelligence agencies, for whom lying is an essential part of the craft, and for which repercussions are nil?
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  > Israeli ministers said on Sunday that Israel does not spy on the US president or defence secretary OK so they don't spy on 2 very specific persons, what about the rest of the country? Plus trusting anything what Mosad says is like trusting Israelis that they don't have nuclear bombs and don't bomb their neighbors from obtaining the same... doesn't make any sense at all
- cbzbc 7y ago

kryogen1c 7y ago

> The U.S. government concluded within the last two years that Israel was most likely behind > But unlike most other occasions I don't know if im spoiled by Wikipedia, or jaded from age, or wisened by age, or rightfully lost trust in the media, or wrongfully lost trust in the media, but i find myself entirely unwilling to accept to accept claims like this. Citation. Needed. In order to believe this article, i need to learn about this publication, and then learn about the author, and then learn about this article specifically. This shit is so much work. We need a new reporting format. Citationless articles are too infotainment-y for me now.

shliachtx 7y ago
Agreed. This is the same publication that insisted that a shadowy Jewish cabal is controlling Trump at Putin's behest. Edit: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/the-happy-go-lucky-jewish-group-that-connects-trump-and-putin-215007 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/the-happy-go... (The original hero image has been changed to something less ominous) https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/229930/politicos-dubious-chabad-story-receives-widespread-criticism https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/229930/politicos-dubious-ch...
- jasonlotito 7y ago
  It's funny that you would post something like that without citation under a comment talking about citations.
  - shliachtx 7y ago
    You are right, I've updated my comment with sources.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  Unfortunately very standard cherry picking facts article, the sad part is that it matched with the conspiracies of jews running the world. Unfortunately a lot of journalism coming from the American left lately gives me those American right wing radio vibes where everyone's the enemy, connected, planning to get you. I'm not American but it seems the two party system is absolutely ripping your country and society apart, but then again people say that this has worked well in the history and things balance out. Hard to take a rational view when things are emotional all around the world, people connected more than ever.

tempodox 7y ago

The commander-in-chief lets himself be spied upon by anyone and everyone. Looks like Trump is a clear and present danger to the national security of the US.

gnu8 7y ago

I still don’t understand how the Stingray is a saleable product. There’s no way such a device could obtain FCC certification, or for a prospective user to obtain a license to operate one. So notwithstanding the fact that the government wants these things, Harris shouldn’t be making or selling these things, and rightfully belongs in jail.

ceejayoz 7y ago
> The FCC's involvement in cell site simulators began years ago when it first approved commercial sales to law enforcement. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/fcc-created-stingray-problem-now-it-needs-fix-it https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/fcc-created-stingray-p...
souterrain 7y ago
Harris can manufacture this under the guise it’s never intended for use within the U.S. They can claim it is for counter-insurgency surveillance in certain central Asian countries. Alternatively, they could seek FCC OET authorization for the product as test equipment, but I doubt it, and my quick searches have yielded nothing. I suspect this is why Harris, FBI and other LEAs conceal their use [1]. 1. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-stingray-murder-evidence-suppressed-20160425-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-stingray-mu...

dahart 7y ago

> The miniature surveillance devices, colloquially known as “StingRays,” mimic regular cell towers to fool cell phones into giving them their locations and identity information. I realize that roaming is a thing, and I don’t know how cellular protocols work, but I am curious why at this point phones don’t connect to towers anonymously, authenticate towers by default, encrypt identity, etc..? Surely the phone could be made to ask you before attaching to a service of unknown origin without compromising you, especially in higher security scenarios. Is this difficult or impossible to do for some reason? Is it already in the works and just not here yet?

2rsf 7y ago
It could be a man in the middle attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker#Interception_of_communications_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker#Interce... That is possible: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221005667_A_man-in-the-middle_attack_on_UMTS https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221005667_A_man-in-...
Miner49er 7y ago
Even if it is possible, why would it ever be implemented? The vast majority of users don't care about this. And even if they did, it's not like there's any real competition in cellular carriers, so there still wouldn't be incentive for carriers to implement this. On the flip side, there is lots of demand from law enforcement for them _not_ to. Law enforcement uses stingrays and would certainly pressure carriers to not implement something that stops them from continuing.
- dahart 7y ago
  Isn't that a bit like asking why HTTPS would ever be implemented, and saying that the vast majority of users don't care about internet privacy, and law enforcement would very much prefer we don't use encryption? The reason I see it being implemented is to prevent StingRay from being a thing.
  - smhenderson 7y ago

mmoez 7y ago

As Robert Greene said, "You have more to fear from your friends than your enemies."

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

mamon 7y ago
You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  > If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers You're downvoted, but this has absolutely been my observation as well
  - BlackRing 7y ago
    He's not wrong. They don't provide anything we couldn't get elsewhere.
  - alfromspace 7y ago
    I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. AIPAC alone spends almost $70 million per year, and we're supposed to pretend lobbying has nothing to do with our seemingly unconditional support for Israel?
    - partialrecall 7y ago
      > I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. Yes, that situation seems comparable to the smears of antisemitism thrown against Jeremy Corbyn too.

stefd 7y ago

Wondering if this might explain similar spying around the Canadian parliament... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-csis-cell-surveillance-1.4701449 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-csis-cell-surveillance...

ntetsuo 7y ago

“On the other hand, guess what we do in Tel Aviv?”

uasm 7y ago

No proof, no citations, no names. A lot of third person language. Anonymous "former officials". Great journalism right there!

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record.
- uasm 7y ago
  > "On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record." Honest question: Would WikiLeaks "work" if all we had was anonymous "former officials" making broad/general statements, providing no proof whatsoever? What about Snowden's leaks? Imagine a really long article on Politico listing every single thing exposed in the Snowden docs, but without the names/documents/specifics. In a style very similar to what we have here in this Politico piece. Without us even knowing it was leaked by Snowden, but by some random "former NSA official". Look, I'm not saying this Politico piece is right or wrong. All I'm saying is - this piece is making very big statements, backed by absolutely no proof whatsoever. And yet people are taking out the pitchforks... this isn't journalism, it's just spreading unsubstantiated FUD. And we should be discouraging this, not defending it.

factsaresacred 7y ago

> In 2010, the secret covers of a Mossad hit team, some of whom had been posing as tennis players, were blown after almost 30 minutes of surveillance video was posted online of them going through a luxury Dubai hotel where they killed a top Hamas terrorist in his room. For those who have not yet seen the footage in question, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJujIwtdk8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJujIwtdk8w Captivating stuff.

electriclove 7y ago
Thank you for sharing! It is quite incredible how they were able to piece all that footage together!

hsnewman 7y ago

I know that NSO group, based in Israel, has advanced cell phone hacking skills. 60 minutes did an article on it a while back: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interview-with-ceo-of-nso-group-israeli-spyware-maker-on-fighting-terror-khashoggi-murder-and-saudi-arabia-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interview-with-ceo-of-nso-group...

not_a_cop75 7y ago

No...not our "best" ally! I don't believe it!

tryitnow 7y ago

If this is true can you blame the Israeli government? The US has an incredibly volatile, unpredictable president. Israel is a country surrounded by states that are openly hostile and the continued survival of Israel depends, in part, on the behavior of the US. I would be disappointed if Israel wasn't doing something like this. And I'm willing to bet the US government does this sort of stuff all over the world, including Israel.

guelo 7y ago
Yes I can blame them. Get the fuck out of my country. And stop buying my politicians.
- bGriz 7y ago
  > Get the fuck out of my country. Not going to get anything done saying that. > And stop buying my politicians. Lobbying reform is an option to improve the situation you're highlighting. https://www.citizen.org/article/lobbying-reform/ https://www.citizen.org/article/lobbying-reform/ And to be more specific, you may be concerned about the AIPAC lobby, among others. https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/
balls187 7y ago
You don't have to bet. Wikileaks publicized that very fact that US (NSA) spies (monitors) it's allies back in 2013.

stateofnounion 7y ago

Not surprising. It's intriguing to think about how this might intersect with the recently departed Jeffery: https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy-story-jeffrey-epstein-scandal/261172/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy...

imglorp 7y ago
Oh boy, that article series needs more attention. On a similar note, just regarding intercept material from the stingrays in OP, the fact that there AREN'T a bunch of White House phone conversations posted to the internet may tell us something about whoever placed them. They could be posted any time to embarrass/indict/etc the administration but instead they're being held for leverage.
hbosch 7y ago
There are a lot of people in this thread oddly pointing links to this "Mint Press News" site. For anyone curious and reading my comment, don't click. It's a propaganda site and has almost no reputation for trustworthiness or accuracy.

exabrial 7y ago

Sort of related: if you're ever in DC on the Hill, a trip to the Spy Museum is a worth it if you're into that kind of thing.

dstola 7y ago

Feels like there is quite a bit of an attempt to sway the conversation in the comments

TKWasRight 7y ago
In what way?

cwkoss 7y ago

With the billions of dollars the US gives to Israel as foreign aid every year, we are arguably funding the spying on ourselves.

scottlocklin 7y ago

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught-spying-in-washington-again.html https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-congress-1451425210 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial-directly-contradicted-secret-nsa-documents/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278 https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly... 1999: https://nypost.com/1999/03/03/israel-blackmailed-bill-with-monica-tapes-spy-hunt-ended-after-mossad-bugged-prez-sex-chats-book-exclusive/ https://nypost.com/1999/03/03/israel-blackmailed-bill-with-m... 2019: https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/trained-in-israeli-intelligence-agencies-former-spies-get-involved-in-us-elections-as-private-sector-information-warriors/ https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/trained-in-israeli-intellige... 2018: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-firm-black-cube-says-hired-by-business-entity-not-trump-1.6063162 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-firm-bl... 2018: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-cit... First page of a google search on "Israel spying on US" excluding last few weeks. This one's my favorite though: Netanyahu and some Hollywood freak were apparently involved in stealing atomb bomb triggers from the US: https://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-implicated-in-nuclear-smuggling-from-u-s-big-story-in-israel/ https://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-implicated-in-nucle... I mean, they're in non compliance with the NPT, so they shouldn't receive any foreign aid, but good luck on that.

chimi 7y ago
Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

wahern 7y ago

2019: > An Israeli Embassy spokesperson, Elad Strohmayer, denied that Israel placed the devices and said: “These allegations are absolute nonsense. Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period.” 2014 (https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757): > Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that such outrageous, false allegations are being directed against Israel." I have to say, placing stingrays around D.C. is pretty bold, but not exactly surprising. It's not even an open secret that Israel aggressively spies in the U.S.; it just is what it is, I guess.

writepub 7y ago
And how's this different from America spying on Israel, or any of the five eyes nations it claims to not spy against? Every country spies on everyone else.
- wahern 7y ago
  Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face. When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international community, and substantial consequences in terms of further reduced intelligence cooperation. It's worthwhile to mention that U.S. and German intelligence sharing is much more limited than between the U.S. and Israel, which is why Obama approved the tapping in the first place. When U.S. espionage efforts in Japan were publicized, Obama ended up apologizing to Shinzo Abe. AFAIK, the only other ally in recent U.S. history (past 50 years) that came close to the extent and depth of Israeli espionage is France. But nobody in the U.S. gave them a pass, either. There are countless ways to distinguish Israeli efforts. Attempts to equivocate here basically amount to whataboutism. Until recently it would be hard to make strong value judgments because Israel is of course a sovereign nation with its own self interests, and their obnoxious spying seemed harmless enough considering they know how to keep a secret and were careful not to obstruct finalized Washington policy. But the problem with spying is that it can injure trust, and allies need to be able to trust each other as much as practicable. Now that Israel doesn't even pretend to be non-partisan wrt American politics, and even aggressively lobbied to kill the signed & sealed Iran nuclear deal, their efforts have arguably crossed a line even given the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel. (OTOH, I wonder which came first, the stingrays or Trumps public disclosure of secret Israeli intelligence. Perhaps Israel took the risk partly because of their distrust in Trump, either his honesty generally or at least his ability to keep a secret.)

age_bronze 7y ago

Blood libel. I've yet to see one real evidence for real spying, not some black cube (who are greedy pieces of shit, but are not part of Israel government), or some boogeyman story of possible suspicion. Truth is, Israel barely has anything to gain while it has so much to lose from such espionage. It's not worth it. US is just so damn paranoid, that it will never believe that. These allegations are the new jewish blood libels, the "jews control everything and are omnipotent".

chimi 7y ago
> Truth is, Israel barely has anything to gain Without support from the USA, Israel would LOSE everything.
- age_bronze 7y ago
  Exactly, why would you ever risk that? Would hearing trump talk to whatever on the phone, worth the huge risk? You can talk to him yourself, why would you ever risk pissing the US off for just that?
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  I dunno, they have Jericho missiles with nukes capable of reaching Los Angeles; I think they'll be fine without US financial support. Which, BTW, is against the NPT because they have nukes. https://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2018/09/16/americans-would-limit-aid-to-nuclear-israel/ https://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2018/09/16/american...
  - age_bronze 7y ago
    Great comment, if anyone else needed any better confirmation that this scottlocklin dude is some anti-semite, there you have it. Expected nothing less from you.
    - scottlocklin 7y ago
      So... it is antisemitic to notice that the Jericho-2 missile, equipped with nukes is capable of reaching LA? It is, you know! This is a fact. https://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/jericho-2.htm https://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/jericho-2.htm Also, it is illegal for the US to give foreign aid to non NPT compliant countries. Israel is a non-NPT compliant country. I've been on here for years; under my real name. You just showed up shouting about Israel. Are you a Hasabra troll being paid to do this? https://left.wikia.org/wiki/Hasbara_troll https://left.wikia.org/wiki/Hasbara_troll

zed88 7y ago

Tbh...with the kind of politics in the world, I won't be surprised if US is doing the same to Israelis or some other country. Another example would be Turkey bugging the Saudi Embassy in Khashoggi killing. But the other thing that irks me is how easily one can get labelled an antisemite for an honest cricism of Israeli politics.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

fortran77 7y ago

Pure nonsense. Very little evidence. Someone is simply speculating. Why does Hacker News allow these unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory discussions?

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago

Hitler was right?

elady 7y ago

At the end of the day it's all business and all govts are involved....

thefounder 7y ago

Israel spies on the US and the US spies on Israel (and everyone else)...what are the news?

apta 7y ago

Why the antiemetism?

stunt 7y ago

That’s what countries do! Right? Everybody spies on others. Pretty sure the US and the UK are spying on each other too despite both being five eyes members.

test7 7y ago

Americans are no lesser, they have spies too.