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Apple and Foxconn broke a Chinese labor law to build the latest iPhones
- lota-putty 7y agoPretty much highlighting slavery outsourced. We all hate to fill those workers' shoes, but love the fruits of their hard labour. OT: American Factory (2019) documentary was a good watch too. Edit: Vote with your wallet in capitalism; what goes around comes around to bite ...
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y agoWhat's worse is it's not like that the fruits of their hard labor would be more expensive if they were treated better. Companies like Apple would just need to cut into their ginormous profit margins instead of being able to sit on literally (edit: hundreds of) billions of dollars in cash.
- paggle 7y ago“Literally billions” is a severe understatement, it’s $245 billion.
- devoply 7y agoBut they need the 245 billion, imagine if the paid half of it to workers instead.. 1.3 million Foxxcon employees would get $75,000 a piece. Meanwhile China dreams of world domination on the back of American capitalism. Best of all worlds.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoMeanwhile they have families to feed, and this capitalism is built on the literal backs of those (and american) workers.
- ajmurmann 7y agoI wonder if the additional cost would even be significant to pay workers better and provide reasonable work hours. How much total, time is spent by actual people working on each iPhone in these factories? Is that even a full hour? I understand the hourly rate is less than $10. So how much difference could paying them well possibly make? The issue on the article seems to be about too many contact workers during rush time which honestly seems reasonable if not inevitable.
- rsa4046 7y agoRelevant to that, there's a good talk by Herman Mark Schwartz [0], in which he reports that total offshore holdings of top 15 US firms exceeds $1 T (more than Obama's ARRA stimulus of $830 B). Excludes onshore cash, and Apple's is a significant fraction of this pile. He argues that monopoly IP rights (originally public goods) held by cash-rich firms leads to lack of real investment. [0] Wealth and Secular Stagnation: The Role of Industrial Organization and Intellectual Property Rights. https://t.co/ZQ5RgHGdFo https://t.co/ZQ5RgHGdFo
- MichailP 7y agoI wonder how rich people even come up with the idea that they are above normal human beings. The idea feels completely unnatural to me, and I strongly believe that one would have to be educated into the idea. Something like school for racists or upbringing for racists. Racist is not the right word but it is the closest matching the description I can think of.
- chillacy 7y agoA lot of research seems to indicate that this is a curious facet of biology: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-causes-brain-damage/528711/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-c... Anecdotally people with power have been doing terrible things for probably most of human history.
- popularwarfare 7y agoWhy do you think they're called elites?
- konart 7y ago>The idea feels completely unnatural to me The idea of skydiving feels completely unnatural to me. But like with many other things - this is mostly because I haven't been there even once.
- doyoulikeworms 7y agoWhat does that even mean?
- Qwertystop 7y agoI haven't been skydiving, and I haven't been rich.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago"some" rich people please.
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- howtofly 7y agoStop pretending to care about Chinese worker's well-being, which is totally hypocritical. It's just that US is not willing to share the global resource with billions of Chinese, which is understandable. The hard-working of these Chinese workers is their biggest advantage. Everyone knows that. These bullshit stories will not bring jobs back to US.
- vezycash 7y agoThe labor law in question is having more temporary workers than the law allows. I don't see much issue with this because the article highlights the cause - seasonal fluctuations. If they overhire, the excess staff would be stuck with nothing to do. And consider the negative press any time companies announce layoffs. Excess staff aren't like machines you can just turn off and turn back on during peak seasons. Can't just create an API and invent AWS with them. There are some companies that don't fire excess staff during slow periods. Staff come in half the month for half pay. And then when things pick up, back to normal. I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though.
- ajmurmann 7y ago> I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though. Are health benefits in China provided by employers? I always understood that (anti) pattern to be mostly unique to the US, due to salary caps during WWII.
- vezycash 7y ago>Are health benefits in China provided by employers? I got this from the article. It's not a clear answer though Dispatch workers don’t receive benefits that full-time employees get, such as paid sick leave, paid vacations and social insurance, which provides medical, unemployment and pension coverage, according to CLW. Base wages CAN be higher for dispatch workers, and are paid by third-party firms on a short-term basis and are not employed directly by Foxconn * Social insurance is the keyword there. Might be an amount paid by company on behalf of the employee. Looks like a 401k-ish scheme.
- mlindner 7y agoChina doesn't have rule of law in general, so any answer you get will always be qualified as things vary drastically.
- ailideex 7y agoSouth African expat in Norway here. In South Africa health care is technically provided by state but if you don't want to die or lose a limb when you go in for something minor you need private insurance which is normally provided by employer. In Norway my employer also providers supplemental insurance that provides lower wait times. So no, not unique to US really. What countries have you lived in?
- chillacy 7y agoA more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines. Apple does occasional audits, but what more can you do when the people you audit lie to you because they _want_ to work? > While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory.
- Hokusai 7y ago"It all centers on Zhengzhou, a city of six million people in an impoverished region of China. Running at full tilt, the factory here, owned and operated by Apple’s manufacturing partner Foxconn, can produce 500,000 iPhones a day. Locals now refer to Zhengzhou as “iPhone City.” ... Foxconn is Apple’s largest supplier. Apple is Foxconn’s largest customer." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-china-foxconn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-c... > While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory. So it is ok to force me to do overtime if my colleagues want to stay? Does not matter if I am overstressed, have children or any other circumstance? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-iphone-factory-reignites-concern-working-conditions/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-...
- nihonde 7y agoThey want the overtime because they have families. These are often itinerant workers who want to come to a factory, work hard for a while, send their wages back to their home town, and then return. There are many who resent efforts to “save” them.
- cptskippy 7y agoYou're attributing a singular desire to everyone to justify a crime. Given 10 people, if 9 want to work overtime that doesn't make it ok to force the 10th person to work overtime.
- nurettin 7y agoNobody is surprised about Foxconn breaking any kind of law. I worked with them directly at a customs agency's software department. During our 6 month integration project, Foxconn caused the resignation of one senior developer and one software specialist. They basically wanted to use our systems to store their private data and gradually demanded that we act like their entire ERP "OR NO DEAL". We ended up finally standing our ground and only did customs integrations and they built an actual IT team instead of using us as their own IT team.
- simonh 7y agoIt's not just Foxconn, I have friends in China that work with Chinese tech companies and they're pretty much all the same. They'll squeeze every last inch of advantage they can get out of any business deal and push things right up to, or beyond the brink of a breakdown in relations. It's utterly cutthroat. I have family over there as well, my wife is Chinese, but those connections are up north. She has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can't talk about him it's too dangerous. Really.
- joosters 7y agoShe has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can't talk about him it's too dangerous. Really. Then why talk about him?
- jessicalondon 7y agoHumble bragging est' 1983.
- selimthegrim 7y agoProbably just using the past tense is enough to hint that he is dead or no longer in that line of work
- blarg1 7y agoHere in Australia I've heard people complain about selling houses to the Chinese (I believe mainlanders), where they would buy the property but before handing over the money they would drag their feet and demand repairs, additions etc to the house. Most people would give in since they would be in the middle of purchasing a new house and needed the money right then, and going through court or whatever would take too long.
- alexis_fr 7y agoDoes that mean Apple is building an exceptionally high number of devices for the Sept 10 keynote, anticipating high demand?
- paul7986 7y agoNot sure why these phones are still large phones without Touch ID. I hear they will releasing a new iPhone SE the size of an iPhone 8 in April that I'm interested in. Though probably no Touch ID in that which stinks. Touch ID is a way better UX ..grab phone with thumb and boom phone is open. One quick/seamless step vs. Face ID...grab phone, look at it and swipe up. Three steps vs. one ..no thanks Apple! Bad UX ..making the user do more then before!
- aloer 7y ago> Not sure why these phones are still large phones without Touch ID Because people like them and people pay for them? Your opinion of preference for TouchID seems to not be shared by the majority who prefers FaceID. it just works
- paul7986 7y agoHmmm go outside of HN land and you will get/see a different set of consumer metrics.
- CaptainMarvel 7y agoWell, generally, when you grab your phone, you’re going to be looking at it anyway...
- doe88 7y agoStrangely I think this is the rare case where public's goal is more aligned with Apple's goal than one might think: no more labour violations, no more headlines. But... be careful what you wish for. Robots. When all iPhones are assembled by robots there will not be any labour violations anymore. But exactly what problem will we have solved in the end?
- quickthrower2 7y ago> But exactly what problem will we have solved in the end? I see what you are saying but sooner or later robots will be used. If you don't agree that they should be used if they are more efficient, then by the same token we shouldn't use computers when it's putting people holding calculators out of work.
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- birdyrooster 7y agoHave you considered the ethical concerns regarding allowing humans to work doing menial tasks which can be automated to the scale you are saying? Are you convinced that no other work would become available for these people that would justify their cessation of manual labor?
- moksly 7y agoYou should be careful about how you distribute the benefits of you automation, not the automation itself. I know America is really bad at redistributing wealth, but society doesn’t actually have to be that way.
- merpnderp 7y agoInequality is measured by the Gini coefficient, and the US isn’t that bad.
- birdyrooster 7y agoNot as bad as what? For which other countries is wealth inequality more important to Americans than the US? It sounds like you think the priority for solving wealth inequality should be elsewhere. Where?
- samstave 7y agoRemove “the latest” replace “law” with “laws” and then add “ever since forever” and that would be more accurate...
- thanatos_dem 7y agoMaybe remove “Apple” too in that case?
- tkubacki 7y agoI know it's not Apple itself but their (biggest ?) supplier, but isn't that the 'Apple DNA' to don't give a f* for their employees? Anyone here with experience working in multiple big tech companies (including Apple) to compare ?
- repesorsa666 7y agoDisclaimer: I live and work in China. Not to defend Apple or Foxconn or anything else, but pretty much 90-95% of companies operating in China, if not more, break the local labor law in multiple ways. For example 996 is very common form in fast-paced industries like tech. This is simply because the (labor) law is not enforced here. Very few laws are in fact.
- powerapple 7y agoI have to say that let the market play out the rules. When people don't want to work overtime, they can leave the job to those who need to work overtime, and once those people who need to work overtime finally at a stage that he doesn't need to work overtime, the job will either increase its standard or go to another place where people need these jobs.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoWe should have let the market sold out child labour too. Why have laws at all?
- powerapple 7y agoActually, I think so. poverty is a problem should be solved, not child labour. If there is a place where children has to work, children has to work. They will need money to survive, or have something for their future generation. And yes, their lives are fked, not because there is not law for that, it is because of poverty. If all standards are the same across the globe, does developing world stand any chance of stealing those unwanted jobs and make their life better? Many young people in China don't want to work overtime, and many do not work in factories, and many demand higher salary, that's how jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Africa and so on. Things will just work out.
- IlegCowcat 7y agoYou know it has to be pretty damn bad if they're breaking chinese labor laws...
- lenkite 7y agoUntil fines of 10+ billion dollars are enforced on violating companies along with multi-month jail-time for executives, nothing will change. The use of dispatch workers doesn't happen by magic. It had to be an explicit decision by senior executives. It required several executives in Foxconn to knowingly and deliberately break labour laws and Apple to close their eyes and look the other way.
- hnsocks 7y agoOh Apple breaking law ?? Do this come as a surprise to anybody ? Oh..people
- butuzov 7y agoJust some of the other violations... - During peak production periods, resignations are not approved. - Some dispatch workers have not received promised bonuses. - Student workers do overtime during peak production season, even though regulations on student internships prohibit this. - Some workers put in at least 100 overtime hours each month, during busy production periods. Chinese labor law limits monthly overtime to 36 hours. - Workers must get approval to not do overtime. If requests are denied and staff still choose not to work overtime, they are admonished by managers and miss out on future overtime opportunities. - Workers sometimes have to stay at the factory for unpaid meetings at night. - The factory doesn’t provide adequate protective equipment for staff. - Work injuries are not reported by the factory, and verbal abuse is common there.
- ajsnigrutin 7y ago> - During peak production periods, resignations are not approved. How the hell do they enforce this?
- verroq 7y agoProbably by not paying?
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- seanmcdirmid 7y agoEasy: you have to get a written release from your employer before you start your new job. They simply withhold that release (HR gets really confused when hiring from foreign countries that have no such concept).
- agumonkey 7y agoThis feels like being the property of someone..
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- jjtheblunt 7y agoBloomberg is so full of bias it's preposterous: Apple themselves detected the violation in a contracted factory, and reported promptly. But that doesn't make a clickbaity title. It would be fascinating to know why Forbes and Bloomberg seem funded to deride Apple.
- slowmovintarget 7y agoQuote from another discussion about a Bloomberg claim: > Bloomberg, of course, is the publication that published “The Big Hack” last October — a sensational story alleging that data centers of Apple, Amazon, and dozens of other companies were compromised by China’s intelligence services. The story presented no confirmable evidence at all, was vehemently denied by all companies involved, has not been confirmed by a single other publication (despite much effort to do so), and has been largely discredited by one of Bloomberg’s own sources. By all appearances “The Big Hack” was complete bullshit. Yet Bloomberg has issued no correction or retraction, and seemingly hopes we’ll all just forget about it. I say we do not just forget about it. Bloomberg’s institutional credibility is severely damaged, and everything they publish should be treated with skepticism until they retract the story or provide evidence that it was true. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20914585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20914585