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1) DHEA is not a diabetes med. In fact it's a steroid (not really an anabolic one, though it is a precursor to anabolics) and illegal in the EU. It is a substan

1) DHEA is not a diabetes med. In fact it's a steroid (not really an anabolic one, though it is a precursor to anabolics) and illegal in the EU. It is a substance which is lowered in older people, so older people supplement with it. 2) Metformin is a diabetes med, and it's used by antiaging enthusiasts independently and along with growth hormone 3) Fasting creates larger growth hormone spikes, and improves sugar clearance. Dunno what it does to DHEA; eat lots of eggs for that one. So, this (lousy, but interesting) study is basically "fasting by using drugs." Meat heads and antiaging people have done stacks like this for years. Unclear whether or not it actually helps with longevity, but it probably improves quality of life. So does fasting, and it don't cost as much.

DuskStar 7y ago
> So does fasting, and it don't cost as much. If a "rich old white dude" could get the health benefits of fasting for a bit of cash, a lot of them are going to pay it. Lifestyle changes are hard, while cash is 'easy' for a significant part of what I imagine to be the target market. EDIT: Apparently I should clarify the "old white dude" part of this. The study in question consisted entirely of "9 white men between 51 and 65 years of age", and I consider it entirely possible that this particular cocktail only works for that demographic.
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
  or simply put: time is the real currency here, money isn't. Lifestyle changes require a significant time investment.
- zarkov99 7y ago
  why white and dude? aren't there other kinds of rich people? and wouldn't they also pay?
  - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
    Statistics
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - mindslight 7y ago
      Plus ça change. I wouldn't have thought racism would become popular again, but here we are.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        Or, well, victorian tiptoeing around language becoming popular again, to avoid saying the obvious: most rich people in our society are white...
        mindslight 7y ago
        But the obvious doesn't need to be continually restated. Rather, it is usually stated in furtherance of some motive - contrast someone expressing frustration at the police saying "everyone in that town is white", with a loan officer saying "everyone in that town is white". There are certainly medical reasons why race is relevant for the results of the study, but the original comment seemed to be dismissing the research as only relevant to a caricatured outgroup. And a justification of "statistics" sounds impartial, but it's from the exact same vein as "_______ people are more likely to default on loans".
        orange-juice 7y ago
        Hey guys, just wanted to let you know how happy I am to have had the chance to read this riveting discussion on my favorite science forum. I learned so much.
        zarkov99 7y ago
        Yes, and that is what one would expect when most people are white in the first place.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    From the article: > The Thymus Regeneration, Immunorestoration and Insulin Mitigation (TRIIM) trial tested 9 white men between 51 and 65 years of age. Who knows if this set of treatments will work for other demographics? I'd certainly bet it'd work differently for women, given the differences in hormonal balances. (And IIRC there are different recommended steroids for women - since at least one of the drugs in this cocktail was a steroid, I'd think that would come into play)
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  > rich old white dude Why attach race, age, gender, and class to the idea that lifestyle changes are hard? I'm pretty sure everyone finds them hard.
  - issa 7y ago
    I believe the point wasn't about who finds lifestyle changes to be hard, but who has the disposable cash to pay for medicine instead.
    - seph-reed 7y ago
      rich people
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    Well, "old white dude" comes from the study participants. "rich" comes from people you want to sell to and/or people who have the resources to pay you.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> So, this (lousy, but interesting) study is basically "fasting by using drugs." That sounds to me like a big deal, given that most people find fasting difficult (and unpleasant).
- ArtWomb 7y ago
  Agreed. Programmatic control of the "metabolic switch" at the cellular level is kind of a Holy Grail ;) Cellular metabolic reprogramming controls sugar appetite https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704783v1.full https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704783v1.full
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Fasting is easy and fun, you just have to work up to it. You can just go from zero to not eating for a week. Building up your tolerance to it takes a bit, like anything else, but when you do it improves mental acuity, gets you a general sense of well-being and energy too.
  - stickfigure 7y ago
    Your idea of 'fun' and my idea of 'fun' are wildly different.
    - jvagner 7y ago
      The idea of fasting and the reality of fasting are different. The idea is more painful than a committed effort. Once you accept and embrace the fast, it’s freeing. Like running every day.... once you know you’re going to do it, the resistance withers.
      - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
        I run and I fast. I enjoy the benefit. The actual act of doing these things are antithetical of fun for me. I do them because they work. If I lose motivation in life, it's the first thing I stop and the hardest to start up again (been many years that I've worked on self improvement) Good on you that it feels that way to you. No, I will never feel that way. People are different.
gingabriska 7y ago
>3) Fasting creates larger growth hormone spikes, and improves sugar clearance. Dunno what it does to DHEA; eat lots of eggs for that one. Does it really mean that if some guy has fast in teenage, he can grow taller or more muscular?
01100011 7y ago
44 yo male. DHEA is amazing. In times of stress, it restores my libido and ends my depressive cycle. I don't take it every day, but I definitely keep it close by.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  36 year old male here. Using metformin to artificially lower my blood sugar level to help keep weight off and for life extension purposes (asked my doctor for a prescription at my annual physical, said "sure, go for it"). Highly recommend it.
  - outside1234 7y ago
    "Sure, go for it" sure sounds like the next Opioid epidemic.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Metformin is fairly safe as far as pharma goes; it requires a high dosage to be toxic, and the primary side effect is gastrointestinal distress. It's also a cheap generic (~5 cents/pill, costs me $2/month). It would be unfair to lump it in with the opioid epidemic, considering the differences. Would you not at least try to live a bit longer for only $25/year and a once a day pill?
      - scottlocklin 7y ago
        Berberine is OTC. Not sure what relative risk profiles are. But yes, it's absolutely not comparable to opioids.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        mdorazio 7y ago
        It seems Berberine and Metformin have different activation paths (Berberine might not lead to AMPK activation) and don't necessarily have exactly the same effects. Is there any research on the two being comparable for longevity purposes (other than lowering tumor risk)?
Iv 7y ago
> antiaging enthusiasts Never heard of that crowd. What is it that they do? Try experimental treatments on themselves?
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  Yes. Hormone injections, "strange" diets, taking supplementation to extremes etc. As with any group there are people who follow it to varying degrees. (I'm not an "antiaging enthusiast" other than eating healthy and regular exercise but I have done some reading on the subject)
  - Iv 7y ago
    What is the easiest step you recommend?
    - qnsi 7y ago
      I think "easiest" is sauna. Exercising is good because it can also help with your mood and brain functioning. I heard conflicting information about cold shocks. There is also fasting which as top comment said works similarly to original link. If you want to read for example about sauna I recommend thishttps://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/sauna https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/sauna she also has a lot of stuff about other things I mentioned
James_Henry 7y ago
Fasting does increase growth hormone amount and spike frequency, but it also makes you growth hormone resistant https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413108001502 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155041310... Why is it lousy to do formal research on "stacks" people have been using for years?
- makruiten 7y ago
  This seems to be the case for longer fasts and for starvation. I wonder if it also applies to time restricted feeding without calorie restrictions.
collyw 7y ago
> DHEA is illegal in the EU. I managed to buy some online. I think it was from a UK site, but I can't remember. Makes me spotty though, so i don't use it to often.

DuskStar 7y ago

> So does fasting, and it don't cost as much. If a "rich old white dude" could get the health benefits of fasting for a bit of cash, a lot of them are going to pay it. Lifestyle changes are hard, while cash is 'easy' for a significant part of what I imagine to be the target market. EDIT: Apparently I should clarify the "old white dude" part of this. The study in question consisted entirely of "9 white men between 51 and 65 years of age", and I consider it entirely possible that this particular cocktail only works for that demographic.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
or simply put: time is the real currency here, money isn't. Lifestyle changes require a significant time investment.
zarkov99 7y ago
why white and dude? aren't there other kinds of rich people? and wouldn't they also pay?
- shrimp_emoji 7y ago
  Statistics
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mindslight 7y ago
    Plus ça change. I wouldn't have thought racism would become popular again, but here we are.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Or, well, victorian tiptoeing around language becoming popular again, to avoid saying the obvious: most rich people in our society are white...
      - mindslight 7y ago
        But the obvious doesn't need to be continually restated. Rather, it is usually stated in furtherance of some motive - contrast someone expressing frustration at the police saying "everyone in that town is white", with a loan officer saying "everyone in that town is white". There are certainly medical reasons why race is relevant for the results of the study, but the original comment seemed to be dismissing the research as only relevant to a caricatured outgroup. And a justification of "statistics" sounds impartial, but it's from the exact same vein as "_______ people are more likely to default on loans".
      - orange-juice 7y ago
        Hey guys, just wanted to let you know how happy I am to have had the chance to read this riveting discussion on my favorite science forum. I learned so much.
      - zarkov99 7y ago
        Yes, and that is what one would expect when most people are white in the first place.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  From the article: > The Thymus Regeneration, Immunorestoration and Insulin Mitigation (TRIIM) trial tested 9 white men between 51 and 65 years of age. Who knows if this set of treatments will work for other demographics? I'd certainly bet it'd work differently for women, given the differences in hormonal balances. (And IIRC there are different recommended steroids for women - since at least one of the drugs in this cocktail was a steroid, I'd think that would come into play)
jjoonathan 7y ago
> rich old white dude Why attach race, age, gender, and class to the idea that lifestyle changes are hard? I'm pretty sure everyone finds them hard.
- issa 7y ago
  I believe the point wasn't about who finds lifestyle changes to be hard, but who has the disposable cash to pay for medicine instead.
  - seph-reed 7y ago
    rich people
- DuskStar 7y ago
  Well, "old white dude" comes from the study participants. "rich" comes from people you want to sell to and/or people who have the resources to pay you.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> So, this (lousy, but interesting) study is basically "fasting by using drugs." That sounds to me like a big deal, given that most people find fasting difficult (and unpleasant).

ArtWomb 7y ago
Agreed. Programmatic control of the "metabolic switch" at the cellular level is kind of a Holy Grail ;) Cellular metabolic reprogramming controls sugar appetite https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704783v1.full https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704783v1.full
arcticbull 7y ago
Fasting is easy and fun, you just have to work up to it. You can just go from zero to not eating for a week. Building up your tolerance to it takes a bit, like anything else, but when you do it improves mental acuity, gets you a general sense of well-being and energy too.
- stickfigure 7y ago
  Your idea of 'fun' and my idea of 'fun' are wildly different.
  - jvagner 7y ago
    The idea of fasting and the reality of fasting are different. The idea is more painful than a committed effort. Once you accept and embrace the fast, it’s freeing. Like running every day.... once you know you’re going to do it, the resistance withers.
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      I run and I fast. I enjoy the benefit. The actual act of doing these things are antithetical of fun for me. I do them because they work. If I lose motivation in life, it's the first thing I stop and the hardest to start up again (been many years that I've worked on self improvement) Good on you that it feels that way to you. No, I will never feel that way. People are different.

gingabriska 7y ago

>3) Fasting creates larger growth hormone spikes, and improves sugar clearance. Dunno what it does to DHEA; eat lots of eggs for that one. Does it really mean that if some guy has fast in teenage, he can grow taller or more muscular?

01100011 7y ago

44 yo male. DHEA is amazing. In times of stress, it restores my libido and ends my depressive cycle. I don't take it every day, but I definitely keep it close by.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
36 year old male here. Using metformin to artificially lower my blood sugar level to help keep weight off and for life extension purposes (asked my doctor for a prescription at my annual physical, said "sure, go for it"). Highly recommend it.
- outside1234 7y ago
  "Sure, go for it" sure sounds like the next Opioid epidemic.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Metformin is fairly safe as far as pharma goes; it requires a high dosage to be toxic, and the primary side effect is gastrointestinal distress. It's also a cheap generic (~5 cents/pill, costs me $2/month). It would be unfair to lump it in with the opioid epidemic, considering the differences. Would you not at least try to live a bit longer for only $25/year and a once a day pill?
    - scottlocklin 7y ago
      Berberine is OTC. Not sure what relative risk profiles are. But yes, it's absolutely not comparable to opioids.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - mdorazio 7y ago
        It seems Berberine and Metformin have different activation paths (Berberine might not lead to AMPK activation) and don't necessarily have exactly the same effects. Is there any research on the two being comparable for longevity purposes (other than lowering tumor risk)?

Iv 7y ago

> antiaging enthusiasts Never heard of that crowd. What is it that they do? Try experimental treatments on themselves?

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
Yes. Hormone injections, "strange" diets, taking supplementation to extremes etc. As with any group there are people who follow it to varying degrees. (I'm not an "antiaging enthusiast" other than eating healthy and regular exercise but I have done some reading on the subject)
- Iv 7y ago
  What is the easiest step you recommend?
  - qnsi 7y ago
    I think "easiest" is sauna. Exercising is good because it can also help with your mood and brain functioning. I heard conflicting information about cold shocks. There is also fasting which as top comment said works similarly to original link. If you want to read for example about sauna I recommend thishttps://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/sauna https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/sauna she also has a lot of stuff about other things I mentioned

James_Henry 7y ago

Fasting does increase growth hormone amount and spike frequency, but it also makes you growth hormone resistant https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413108001502 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155041310... Why is it lousy to do formal research on "stacks" people have been using for years?

makruiten 7y ago
This seems to be the case for longer fasts and for starvation. I wonder if it also applies to time restricted feeding without calorie restrictions.

collyw 7y ago

> DHEA is illegal in the EU. I managed to buy some online. I think it was from a UK site, but I can't remember. Makes me spotty though, so i don't use it to often.