8 ms·

I think it's parenting. Parents started to become overprotective somewhere in the late 90's and it's only getting worse. Kids don't learn to deal with setbacks

by Vomzor 7y ago

I think it's parenting. Parents started to become overprotective somewhere in the late 90's and it's only getting worse. Kids don't learn to deal with setbacks anymore. So the real world overwhelms them. There's a book, The Coddling of the American Mind, that explains the problem much better than I do. "First Amendment expert Greg Lukianoff and social psychologist Jonathan Haidt show how the new problems on campus have their origins in three terrible ideas that have become increasingly woven into American childhood and education: What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker; always trust your feelings; and life is a battle between good people and evil people. These three Great Untruths contradict basic psychological principles about well-being and ancient wisdom from many cultures. Embracing these untruths—and the resulting culture of safetyism—interferes with young people’s social, emotional, and intellectual development. It makes it harder for them to become autonomous adults who are able to navigate the bumpy road of life." https://www.thecoddling.com https://www.thecoddling.com

ben_jones 7y ago
I disagree. Parenting is critical but I believe the root is the relationship with smart phones by not only students but everyone else in the students lives (parents/teachers/counselors/other role models). A mixture of constant audio, visual, and social, inputs has lowered our attention spans and rotted our ability to deal with stress in healthy ways (and likely created new stresses simultaneously). To support this I would cross-reference screen time between 1st world countries and mental health records, normalizing as best I could for all the other variables in the equation.
- Vomzor 7y ago
  Smartphones definitely play a role but aren't the main cause. The rise of depression and anxiety started before smartphones were mainstream. "Comparing groups across generations is admittedly difficult, but the data clearly point to things being far worse now. Trend data clearly suggest increases in levels of stress, depression and anxiety at least since the 1980s. Consider that one study found that the average high school student in the year 2000 has the same level of anxiety as the average psychiatric patient did in the 1950s; and those rates have only increased in the last decade. Utilizing the MMPI to assess psychopathology, Twenge and colleagues found five times as many students in 2007 surpassed clinical cutoffs in one or more mental health categories, compared with those who took the measure several decades ago." https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/theory-knowledge/201402/the-college-student-mental-health-crisis https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/theory-knowledge/2...
testfoobar 7y ago
Resolving cognitive dissonance through observation, education, reflection and considering the wisdom of others is a necessary step towards inner peace. For any idea to be meaningful, it should be able to survive challenges. Feelings will betray you. Good and evil are not fundamental universal concepts.
- bradhoffman 7y ago
  Do you have any recommendations on sources when I can read more about your viewpoint? I craving some inner peace after a month of almost constant fear and anxiety.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
amelius 7y ago
It's the first generation that's going to be less wealthy than their parents. Perhaps that's also a factor.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Anecdotally, it seems a thing among the younger well-off types all the same, e.g. programmers making 6-figures in their early twenties. Perhaps it’s more of a zeitgeist thing than individual outlook? Regardless, I think as a problem it’s more mosaic, that to reduce it to any one cause is too reductive.
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Well, even if you're making 6 figures your friends and family probably aren't all making 6 figures, are they? I've been working in software for over 10 years but most of the people I grew up with or went to school with are having trouble making ends meet. 6 figures isn't enough to help the people you care about and it's not enough to retire early or have a big enough nest egg to tank something like million dollar medical bills. There's plenty left to be stressed about.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      > Well, even if you're making 6 figures your friends and family probably aren't all making 6 figures, are they? Of the (anecdata) pool I'm sampling from, the most anxious / depressed tended to be the most well-off. Personally, coming from the mixed background / lower-middle side, the non-traditional types seemed to fair better, such that I would anecdotally ascribe value to "blue collar suffering" as providing some measure of anti-fragility. But that's far into speculative territory. In all honesty I'm fairly anxious, but I also can cope or at least mask as necessary. As I've previously expressed, I'm sure it's more a confluence of factors than any one item causing or precluding.
- opportune 7y ago
  I think this is a big part of it. If you compared material quality of life among similarly aged groups, you would definitely see a downward trend among young people. In some ways I think this is due to our ongoing demographic shift. More and more of the US is getting old; old people typically have more assets than young people and need to rely on social security (which young people bear in taxes) and their investments to generate income. I think this is partly contributing to an asset bubble and definitely to the housing shortage (though there are other factors). I don't know if society has ever had a time where more households were not working but still drawing incomes.
tomlock 7y ago
Has there been a generation where the elders haven't accused the kids of some moral fault?
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
This is a conservative talking point that's old as time itself. Uncomfortable discussing what's on the news? Complain about the next generation. Compare these two takes: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/book-review-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-snowflake-students/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/book-review-the-coddl... https://thebaffler.com/latest/solutionism-for-students-greenwald https://thebaffler.com/latest/solutionism-for-students-green...
- usrlocaletc 7y ago
  I wouldn't jump to blaming people of a particular political persuasion because complaining about kids, their loud music and them not walking 100 miles, barefoot and naked in the snow is as old as time itself. Right/left is divide-and-conquer nonsense; solidarity amongst regular people is far more important.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    I was referring to conservatism in the sense of being reactionary (which is indeed as old as at least technology, one of my favorite books is Fathers and Sons). Many if not most democrats certainly fit the bill. I certainly agree with the need for solidarity!
faissaloo 7y ago
It's much more than not learning to deal with setbacks, it's that we've been robbed of the ability to exercise our will on the world, and we cling to any scrap of meaningful freedom we can find.
luckylittle 7y ago
My gut feeling is telling me you're right. Parenting has gone terribly wrong in the last 20 years. No matter what the kids do, they always tell them "good job", even when they are complete losers. They become so soft and iresistant to failure. Then we put them to hugely stressfull environments, where they are facing failures. Then we give them social media and other confusing propaganda (like LGBTI+ trendy movement these days) and in the case of US, we give them guns. I am not surprised at all actually.
- czyzc 7y ago
  It's very telling you think LGBT+ acceptance is a "trendy movement"
- yardie 7y ago
  LGBT is propaganda? Good luck with that.
  - usrlocaletc 7y ago
    I have no idea what the GP thread wrote, but it seems it was probably off base. In general: Nowadays, I believe there is a subtle and misguided conflation between a rare few, loud, victim-hierarchy-obsessive crybullies trying to impose collective outcomes with selective, collective punishment of "perpetrator groups" (possibly referred to as SJWs) with greater numbers of people who have legitimate, historical persecutions and casual, recurring bias harm (those who needed and try to maintain actual social justice without bothering people beyond what's essential).
    - adjkant 7y ago
      There's a setting to turn on flagged/dead comment viewing, which I find very helpful. I feel like many don't realize the underbelly HN has, and I think many should.
adjkant 7y ago
> Kids don't learn to deal with setbacks anymore. So the real world overwhelms them. It doesn't sound like you interact with many "kids" these days. As someone surrounded mostly by them, I can assure you none of this is true. Sad to see this upvoted so highly and especially sad to see people pointing out this is a long brought up conservative talking point with no evidence downvoted. I thought we got over this myth 10 years ago. Yet people still want to yell at Mr. Rodgers for caring about child psychology and being on the forefront of mental health in a real way... Perhaps one should look to the external world these people are coming into for answers. Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful policies against many people over the world in many countries. Not to mention that mental health being destigmatized raises statistical reporting rates as people are simply more open about it. But yeah, let's blame bad parenting that people first accused millennials of when no millennials are even left in the post high school college population.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  > Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful policies against many people over the world in many countries... Because none of that stuff existed in the '50s, '60s, and '70s? /s Just substitute "nuclear war for "climate change".
  - 205guy 7y ago
    I agree with those saying climate change is a huge stressor for young generations. I had the same argument with a friend about fear of nuclear war into the 80's, but she convinced me it wasn't the same. They are both existential fears, but nuclear war was something that only the military could make happen, and as long as it didn't happen, life could go on as usual (well not really, we know now). Whereas climate change is happening slowly but surely all around and everyone will have to change their behavior to avoid it. My wife and I cannot talk about climate change around our kids because they understand how scary it is and we see their fear about the consequences.
    - khyryk 7y ago

by Vomzor 7y ago

ben_jones 7y ago

I disagree. Parenting is critical but I believe the root is the relationship with smart phones by not only students but everyone else in the students lives (parents/teachers/counselors/other role models). A mixture of constant audio, visual, and social, inputs has lowered our attention spans and rotted our ability to deal with stress in healthy ways (and likely created new stresses simultaneously). To support this I would cross-reference screen time between 1st world countries and mental health records, normalizing as best I could for all the other variables in the equation.

Vomzor 7y ago
Smartphones definitely play a role but aren't the main cause. The rise of depression and anxiety started before smartphones were mainstream. "Comparing groups across generations is admittedly difficult, but the data clearly point to things being far worse now. Trend data clearly suggest increases in levels of stress, depression and anxiety at least since the 1980s. Consider that one study found that the average high school student in the year 2000 has the same level of anxiety as the average psychiatric patient did in the 1950s; and those rates have only increased in the last decade. Utilizing the MMPI to assess psychopathology, Twenge and colleagues found five times as many students in 2007 surpassed clinical cutoffs in one or more mental health categories, compared with those who took the measure several decades ago." https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/theory-knowledge/201402/the-college-student-mental-health-crisis https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/theory-knowledge/2...

testfoobar 7y ago

Resolving cognitive dissonance through observation, education, reflection and considering the wisdom of others is a necessary step towards inner peace. For any idea to be meaningful, it should be able to survive challenges. Feelings will betray you. Good and evil are not fundamental universal concepts.

bradhoffman 7y ago
Do you have any recommendations on sources when I can read more about your viewpoint? I craving some inner peace after a month of almost constant fear and anxiety.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

amelius 7y ago

It's the first generation that's going to be less wealthy than their parents. Perhaps that's also a factor.

mieseratte 7y ago
Anecdotally, it seems a thing among the younger well-off types all the same, e.g. programmers making 6-figures in their early twenties. Perhaps it’s more of a zeitgeist thing than individual outlook? Regardless, I think as a problem it’s more mosaic, that to reduce it to any one cause is too reductive.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Well, even if you're making 6 figures your friends and family probably aren't all making 6 figures, are they? I've been working in software for over 10 years but most of the people I grew up with or went to school with are having trouble making ends meet. 6 figures isn't enough to help the people you care about and it's not enough to retire early or have a big enough nest egg to tank something like million dollar medical bills. There's plenty left to be stressed about.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > Well, even if you're making 6 figures your friends and family probably aren't all making 6 figures, are they? Of the (anecdata) pool I'm sampling from, the most anxious / depressed tended to be the most well-off. Personally, coming from the mixed background / lower-middle side, the non-traditional types seemed to fair better, such that I would anecdotally ascribe value to "blue collar suffering" as providing some measure of anti-fragility. But that's far into speculative territory. In all honesty I'm fairly anxious, but I also can cope or at least mask as necessary. As I've previously expressed, I'm sure it's more a confluence of factors than any one item causing or precluding.
opportune 7y ago
I think this is a big part of it. If you compared material quality of life among similarly aged groups, you would definitely see a downward trend among young people. In some ways I think this is due to our ongoing demographic shift. More and more of the US is getting old; old people typically have more assets than young people and need to rely on social security (which young people bear in taxes) and their investments to generate income. I think this is partly contributing to an asset bubble and definitely to the housing shortage (though there are other factors). I don't know if society has ever had a time where more households were not working but still drawing incomes.

tomlock 7y ago

Has there been a generation where the elders haven't accused the kids of some moral fault?

SomeOldThrow 7y ago

This is a conservative talking point that's old as time itself. Uncomfortable discussing what's on the news? Complain about the next generation. Compare these two takes: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/book-review-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-snowflake-students/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/book-review-the-coddl... https://thebaffler.com/latest/solutionism-for-students-greenwald https://thebaffler.com/latest/solutionism-for-students-green...

usrlocaletc 7y ago
I wouldn't jump to blaming people of a particular political persuasion because complaining about kids, their loud music and them not walking 100 miles, barefoot and naked in the snow is as old as time itself. Right/left is divide-and-conquer nonsense; solidarity amongst regular people is far more important.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  I was referring to conservatism in the sense of being reactionary (which is indeed as old as at least technology, one of my favorite books is Fathers and Sons). Many if not most democrats certainly fit the bill. I certainly agree with the need for solidarity!

faissaloo 7y ago

It's much more than not learning to deal with setbacks, it's that we've been robbed of the ability to exercise our will on the world, and we cling to any scrap of meaningful freedom we can find.

luckylittle 7y ago

My gut feeling is telling me you're right. Parenting has gone terribly wrong in the last 20 years. No matter what the kids do, they always tell them "good job", even when they are complete losers. They become so soft and iresistant to failure. Then we put them to hugely stressfull environments, where they are facing failures. Then we give them social media and other confusing propaganda (like LGBTI+ trendy movement these days) and in the case of US, we give them guns. I am not surprised at all actually.

czyzc 7y ago
It's very telling you think LGBT+ acceptance is a "trendy movement"
yardie 7y ago
LGBT is propaganda? Good luck with that.
- usrlocaletc 7y ago
  I have no idea what the GP thread wrote, but it seems it was probably off base. In general: Nowadays, I believe there is a subtle and misguided conflation between a rare few, loud, victim-hierarchy-obsessive crybullies trying to impose collective outcomes with selective, collective punishment of "perpetrator groups" (possibly referred to as SJWs) with greater numbers of people who have legitimate, historical persecutions and casual, recurring bias harm (those who needed and try to maintain actual social justice without bothering people beyond what's essential).
  - adjkant 7y ago
    There's a setting to turn on flagged/dead comment viewing, which I find very helpful. I feel like many don't realize the underbelly HN has, and I think many should.

adjkant 7y ago

> Kids don't learn to deal with setbacks anymore. So the real world overwhelms them. It doesn't sound like you interact with many "kids" these days. As someone surrounded mostly by them, I can assure you none of this is true. Sad to see this upvoted so highly and especially sad to see people pointing out this is a long brought up conservative talking point with no evidence downvoted. I thought we got over this myth 10 years ago. Yet people still want to yell at Mr. Rodgers for caring about child psychology and being on the forefront of mental health in a real way... Perhaps one should look to the external world these people are coming into for answers. Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful policies against many people over the world in many countries. Not to mention that mental health being destigmatized raises statistical reporting rates as people are simply more open about it. But yeah, let's blame bad parenting that people first accused millennials of when no millennials are even left in the post high school college population.

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful policies against many people over the world in many countries... Because none of that stuff existed in the '50s, '60s, and '70s? /s Just substitute "nuclear war for "climate change".
- 205guy 7y ago
  I agree with those saying climate change is a huge stressor for young generations. I had the same argument with a friend about fear of nuclear war into the 80's, but she convinced me it wasn't the same. They are both existential fears, but nuclear war was something that only the military could make happen, and as long as it didn't happen, life could go on as usual (well not really, we know now). Whereas climate change is happening slowly but surely all around and everyone will have to change their behavior to avoid it. My wife and I cannot talk about climate change around our kids because they understand how scary it is and we see their fear about the consequences.
  - khyryk 7y ago