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The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the contrary - though I suppose I'm an ignoramus for thinking that. Simply strolling through Pioneer Square or most parts of International District paints a significantly different picture. One can dine at a Chinese place on Jackson and look out their window and see junkies peddling stolen goods at the bus stop. The non-enforcement of so-called "petty crime" used to fund drug addictions is egregious and continues to undermine the already little sense of community there is in this city of transients. What I'm trying to say is that while I appreciate the difference in approach from the traditional one, I do believe that there needs to be an honest discussion about the limits of rehabilitation. More research on the subject, as it relates to Seattle, shows that there are many, many, people who take advantage of these lax policies to abuse the system, hurting others who actually need help.

news_to_me 7y ago
Do you think there would be fewer needles outside your apartment if we simply locked these people up? I think there would be more. I agree that the limits of rehabilitation need to be seriously considered, and that good policy requires a mix of approaches. That said, all of your arguments could be applied to alcoholics during prohibition. I think if we actually want a sense of community in this city, it starts by treating our neighbors as humans. These drug users are your neighbors. What are you doing to help them?
- rdtwo 7y ago
  If my neighbor beat his wife, damaged my car and pissed on my house I would do exactly what ever good neighbor should- call the cops and make sure they have enough evidence to send his ass to jail. The problem is when the cops don’t come then what do you do?
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    Good neighbors don't act the way junkies act. Good neighbors respect boundaries. Good neighbors don’t: break in cars, break in garages, steal bicycles, threaten customers and staff at restaurants, nod out in the middle if the sidewalk, chase after women waving their dicks, move to your fair city to take advantage of your compassion, etc. (Actual events from this week)
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    If the police don't come, it's a breakdown of civilization. Buy a gun.
    - IronWolve 7y ago
      Seattle has no gun stores anymore, they ran them off with continuous passed anti-gun laws.
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        The point really is resort to violence. If people can't get access to guns, I'm confident they can be enterprising enough to find other ways to defend themselves and their property.
downandout 7y ago
Eventually a junkie will commit a serious crime against one of the tech luminaries that live in and around Seattle. I’m guessing that the lax enforcement environment will be gone within about a day of that incident. Seattle is playing with fire here. I wouldn’t set foot in a city where hard drug use is tolerated, and seemingly celebrated, by many of the people that live there. Junkies will do whatever is necessary to get their next fix. It seems like a bad idea to be anywhere near a city with policies that both attract and help create them.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  I dunno, may be you are right -- that the "right" person hasn't been assaulted, raped or killed yet. Certainly, the high profile stabbing in front of Nordstroms didn't do much. Nor, did much change when the homeless guy was stopped from throwing a women on her way to work off an I-5 overpass. Or the lady who was raped by the homeless guy at the U-district car dealership after dropping her car off for an oil change on her way to work in the morning. I assume it would have to be someone connected to the local government. It took about five seconds to change the 2nd Ave bike lanes when a city employee was killed riding her bike down there.
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    I am still heartbroken that Mia Zapata was brutally murdered.
  - rlucas 7y ago
    Your last graf implies that there was some nefarious favoritism that gave a turbo boost to Seattle's 2nd Ave bike lane project, due to the connectedness of the woman killed shortly before it took effect. If you are referring to the well known tragic death of Sher Kung in August 2014, just before the September 2014 scheduled opening of the 2nd Ave bike lane, you are very wrong. The project had been underway long before that.
    - pnw_hazor 7y ago
      Good point. And, this victim was not a city worker, but a civil rights attorney at a large well-connected law firm. It sure seemed to me that after her tragic death the call for bike safety was turned up to 11. We haven't reached that point yet re homeless/junkie assaults. It will take the right person to get killed or raped for that to happen.
psychometry 7y ago
Supervised consumption sites would go a long way toward fixing the needle problem.
- grawprog 7y ago
  We have safe injection sites up here in Vancouver, you still find used needles lying around everywhere, depending where you go, only you also find the small saline packs and disposable spoons from the injection sites lying around with the used needles. The police don't really seem to care. I've watched a couple of officers find a small pile of used needles at one of the skytrain stations, they laughed to each other said how they should be cleaning that up, then just left. I know about an hour later, a bunch of school kids take the bus I was waiting for. Calling and reporting it did nothing.
  - awakeasleep 7y ago
    Nothing concrete, but often calls to complain make it into a tally or database that can be cited by a politician looking to change things.
    - pnw_hazor 7y ago
      It works both ways. If the city refuses to charge offenders and police refuse to arrest, crime goes down.
    - rdtwo 7y ago
      Seattle PD knows this so they take days to file basic reports. If you wanted to report the somebody broke into your car you could be waiting multiple days for someone to take the report.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    Police just follow the lead of politicians. Seattle Police ignore just about everything except active shooters. Even emergency calls about homeless brandishing knives in broad daylight are ignored. (If someone does get stabbed, the police will show.) Seattle politicians have shown that they have no interest in keeping violent people off the streets, so the police don't waste their time with it.
nikanj 7y ago
Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.
- malandrew 7y ago
  > and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    ... or fleeing to suburbs...
    - coryrc 7y ago
      That's a big problem for those of us still here that would prefer enforcement; our fellow-minded voters have (probably rightly) chosen defect and left the city, rather than stay to vote for change. Suburb living also has twice the greenhouse gas impact as well.
      - ndarwincorn 7y ago
        Those of us still here that prefer empathy would rather you follow your 'fellow-minded' folks and just leave. Seattle's had this tension between the left and the liberals for a century. Traditionally you lived on the outskirts. You're welcome to go back if the city offends your sensibilities.
        stochastastic 7y ago
        Does there need to be a line drawn here? I don’t think there is a contradiction between empathy and enforcement. For example, I would really like an end to the bike and package theft and I think it is reasonable to enforce laws against it. Do you disagree?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kontorlaore 7y ago
The purpose of this article is different - someone will say "the safety situation in Seattle is terrible because of ultra-liberal drug policies". Then you are supposed to reply with this article as a counter. And New York Times beats The Seattle Times, so you've won the argument. It's all about providing a counter-narrative to prevent cognitive dissonance.
notadoc 7y ago
It's certainly not just Seattle either, the large-scale homeless/junky situation describes basically every west coast city. There's obviously a much deeper problem.
- throwawaysea 7y ago
  Isn’t the problem simply overly liberal policy making? It seems moderation has disappeared on the West coast, and these cities basically don’t enforce laws against those pursuing a nomadic drug centric lifestyle on the backs of taxpayer supported land/amenities/services.
- allana 7y ago
  The severe wealth stratification that has occurred over the last few decades has left the majority of Americans facing a grim future of low earnings and unstable employment. Its easy to see how that would make many people depressed and lead to a cycle of addiction to escape this crappy reality.
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    Bollocks, overall more people are rising out of poverty
    - TheHypnotist 7y ago
      Tell that to those forced out by skyrocketing housing costs a la San Francisco, and as I've come to understand, parts of Seattle.
      - sleepybrett 7y ago
        (Most of Seattle)
    - fwip 7y ago
      The official poverty line is drawn by the government. It's great news for them if the poverty line rises slower than cost of living increases.
rayiner 7y ago
It's interesting people always point to Portugal to support the idea that decriminalization is the way to address substance abuse. But compare Sweden, which has similar levels of drug dependency to Portugal, but takes a "zero tolerance" approach to drug use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden. While Sweden does include treatment as part of its drug policy, that is a complement to, not replacement for, strict law enforcement. (Swedes are very anti-drug. While a narrow majority of even Republicans in the US support legalization of cannabis, 83% of Swedes support keeping it illegal: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-cannabis/in-anti-drug-sweden-investors-take-shine-to-cannabis-stocks-idUSKBN1GZ2FQ. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-cannabis/in-anti-d...)
- DanBC 7y ago
  > According to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), in 2005, the rate of drug-related deaths per capita in Sweden was more than twice that of the Netherlands and there were more persons addicted to severe narcotics ("heavy drugs") than in other countries It doesn't seem to be working that well, does it?
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    Is drug related death really the right stat to use? Seems like it doesn’t tell the whole story.
    - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
      Considering the low rate of drug usage in Sweden amongst the general population it seems to tell a sorry story about Swedish drug policy...
- stefan_ 7y ago
  So they throw people in jail and end up having the same outcomes as Portugal that doesn't? Gee, you are making it very difficult to choose which policy I prefer!
xenocyon 7y ago
At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attracting" homeless to the city, despite the fact that the data show this trope to be a fiction.
- refurb 7y ago
  Tough on crimes folks oppose trash pick-up? Really?
  - xenocyon 7y ago
    Yep, the argument I've heard is that it legitimizes encampments. Additionally I suspect people are outraged by the notion that homeless people could get trash pickup for free from the city when housed people have to pay for theirs - even though it would be a lot cheaper than sweeps.
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    I think it’s more of a liability problem. Once the city starts garbage cleaning the city becomes exposed to liability from the encampment because it can be argued that its sanctioned now.
  - lacker 7y ago
    I imagine a conversation like: Q: What should we do about this homeless encampment? The options are: 1. Provide it with free trash pickup so that it's a slightly nicer place to live and to be around 2. Shut it down, remove the tents as well as the trash, make the inhabitants move elsewhere And then I would expect the "tough on crimes" crowd would prefer option #2 to option #1.
    - refurb 7y ago
      That makes more sense. I read it as “opposed to trash pick-up in general” and then thought “who the hell would be opposed to that?”
autokad 7y ago
I see people shooting up in public places, people walking around naked, doing wheelies on a wheelchair on high traffic roads, drug needles laying on the side walk, etc. I think enforcing these laws would make Seattle safer and an overall better place to live.
- diogenescynic 7y ago
  I thought you were describing San Francisco.
mAEStro-paNDa 7y ago
> The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. It's an opinion piece.
TheHypnotist 7y ago
When I was out there last fall, we stayed in Belltown and walked all over. I'm wondering, where was all this squalor you speak of? I came out with a very different impression of the city than you describe. Obviously you would know better, so I'm just wondering, did I get lucky?
- fwip 7y ago
  I live in Seattle and take the bus to work downtown every day. I think I've seen, maybe three needles in five years.
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    I've lived in Seattle for 1.5 years. I became numb to the hyperbole around the homeless problem here in 6 months. One side is talking facts, experimentation, and trying new things. The other side is talking feelings, fears, and taking every misstep as an opportunity to abandon any notion of solving the problem in an ethical way. It is really interesting, especially on a site like HN, because the latter is directly contrary to the ethos of most startups.
    - exolymph 7y ago
      https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
- tony_cannistra 7y ago
  The geography of homelessness in Seattle still eludes me, but Belltown just isn't one of the high-concentration areas. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Pioneer Square and the International District are hotspots. This may be due to shelters and missions (places to get food and housing) being more concentrated there. Homelessness and drug use also comes in very different forms even within Seattle; I live in Ballard, and most of our homeless and drug-addicted community lives in beaten-up RVs parked on the side of the road.
- 7y ago
tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
I've heard that it's not legal to force people into rehab. But I can't see why this can't be done under something like the Baker Act. If you're physically addicted to drugs, you are to some extent not capable of making rational choices, and this means you are a threat to yourself and to those around you. Could this not be a legal pretext to detain someone (humanely) and bring them to rehab treatment? Seems like a better alternative than jail, and certainly a better alternative to letting drug addicts rot on the streets. I'm also not a lawyer and have no idea what I'm talking about, so feel free to lay into me and let me know why this idea is wrong or even crazy.
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  Usually how it works is if you break the law (eg, steal something) and get caught, you are arrested, then you get to see a judge. At that point it is up to the judge to push rehab as a punishment or prison. This depends on the laws of the area, the offense, and if this is a repeat offense.
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  I think you are in the right morally, and legislative position is not relevant - it should be based on morals. Various countries have/had absurd laws, such as making it illegal to insult the supreme leader, suicide is illegal, and having legal slavery, heresy, the list goes on and on. Today we regard those laws as stupid and cruel, and hopefully one day we will regard persecution of addicts with the same incredulity as we regard witch-hunts
tryitnow 7y ago
Interesting. Some of the benefits of decriminalizing can probably only be realized if it's done as a national level, so I'm pretty skeptical of just how successful local initiatives can be. I wonder how Portugal achieved such supposed success in decriminalizing drug use.
jmcqk6 7y ago
>I do believe that there needs to be an honest discussion about the limits of rehabilitation. First I think we need to have an honest discussion about actually trying rehabilitation. The criminal justice system is more concerned with retribution than rehabilitation.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nathansoz 7y ago
Jesus dude. Just the "junkies" comment shows that you aren't even open to a different approach.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
Junkies tend to be people with overwhelming problems who can't make their lives work. Throwing people in jail is usually not a means to make their lives suddenly start working. I think you solve problems like widespread drug use by repairing the tattered social fabric that of this country which has taken such a toll on so many of the people who live here.
- diogenescynic 7y ago
  What about not ruining everyone else’s lives and the public health issues these people create? Not a fan of conservative ideology, but surely there is some level of personal responsibility and accountability they have towards the public? And when they betray that buy shitting on public areas or leaving needles near playgrounds, I think it’s not only reasonable but necessary to incarcerate them—for their own good and the public’s.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Lack of adequate housing supply is a contributing factor to homelessness. If you are just throwing people in jail and not addressing issues of that ilk, it rapidly becomes unsustainable. Criminals in jail are a burden on society. Functional, productive, tax paying citizens are assets to society. Rehabilitation is not charity. It's enlightened self interest. I'm not advocating for kind of bleeding heart "charity" here.

news_to_me 7y ago

Do you think there would be fewer needles outside your apartment if we simply locked these people up? I think there would be more. I agree that the limits of rehabilitation need to be seriously considered, and that good policy requires a mix of approaches. That said, all of your arguments could be applied to alcoholics during prohibition. I think if we actually want a sense of community in this city, it starts by treating our neighbors as humans. These drug users are your neighbors. What are you doing to help them?

rdtwo 7y ago
If my neighbor beat his wife, damaged my car and pissed on my house I would do exactly what ever good neighbor should- call the cops and make sure they have enough evidence to send his ass to jail. The problem is when the cops don’t come then what do you do?
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Good neighbors don't act the way junkies act. Good neighbors respect boundaries. Good neighbors don’t: break in cars, break in garages, steal bicycles, threaten customers and staff at restaurants, nod out in the middle if the sidewalk, chase after women waving their dicks, move to your fair city to take advantage of your compassion, etc. (Actual events from this week)
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  If the police don't come, it's a breakdown of civilization. Buy a gun.
  - IronWolve 7y ago
    Seattle has no gun stores anymore, they ran them off with continuous passed anti-gun laws.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      The point really is resort to violence. If people can't get access to guns, I'm confident they can be enterprising enough to find other ways to defend themselves and their property.

downandout 7y ago

Eventually a junkie will commit a serious crime against one of the tech luminaries that live in and around Seattle. I’m guessing that the lax enforcement environment will be gone within about a day of that incident. Seattle is playing with fire here. I wouldn’t set foot in a city where hard drug use is tolerated, and seemingly celebrated, by many of the people that live there. Junkies will do whatever is necessary to get their next fix. It seems like a bad idea to be anywhere near a city with policies that both attract and help create them.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
I dunno, may be you are right -- that the "right" person hasn't been assaulted, raped or killed yet. Certainly, the high profile stabbing in front of Nordstroms didn't do much. Nor, did much change when the homeless guy was stopped from throwing a women on her way to work off an I-5 overpass. Or the lady who was raped by the homeless guy at the U-district car dealership after dropping her car off for an oil change on her way to work in the morning. I assume it would have to be someone connected to the local government. It took about five seconds to change the 2nd Ave bike lanes when a city employee was killed riding her bike down there.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  I am still heartbroken that Mia Zapata was brutally murdered.
- rlucas 7y ago
  Your last graf implies that there was some nefarious favoritism that gave a turbo boost to Seattle's 2nd Ave bike lane project, due to the connectedness of the woman killed shortly before it took effect. If you are referring to the well known tragic death of Sher Kung in August 2014, just before the September 2014 scheduled opening of the 2nd Ave bike lane, you are very wrong. The project had been underway long before that.
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    Good point. And, this victim was not a city worker, but a civil rights attorney at a large well-connected law firm. It sure seemed to me that after her tragic death the call for bike safety was turned up to 11. We haven't reached that point yet re homeless/junkie assaults. It will take the right person to get killed or raped for that to happen.

psychometry 7y ago

Supervised consumption sites would go a long way toward fixing the needle problem.

grawprog 7y ago
We have safe injection sites up here in Vancouver, you still find used needles lying around everywhere, depending where you go, only you also find the small saline packs and disposable spoons from the injection sites lying around with the used needles. The police don't really seem to care. I've watched a couple of officers find a small pile of used needles at one of the skytrain stations, they laughed to each other said how they should be cleaning that up, then just left. I know about an hour later, a bunch of school kids take the bus I was waiting for. Calling and reporting it did nothing.
- awakeasleep 7y ago
  Nothing concrete, but often calls to complain make it into a tally or database that can be cited by a politician looking to change things.
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    It works both ways. If the city refuses to charge offenders and police refuse to arrest, crime goes down.
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    Seattle PD knows this so they take days to file basic reports. If you wanted to report the somebody broke into your car you could be waiting multiple days for someone to take the report.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Police just follow the lead of politicians. Seattle Police ignore just about everything except active shooters. Even emergency calls about homeless brandishing knives in broad daylight are ignored. (If someone does get stabbed, the police will show.) Seattle politicians have shown that they have no interest in keeping violent people off the streets, so the police don't waste their time with it.

nikanj 7y ago

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

malandrew 7y ago
> and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.
- AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
  ... or fleeing to suburbs...
  - coryrc 7y ago
    That's a big problem for those of us still here that would prefer enforcement; our fellow-minded voters have (probably rightly) chosen defect and left the city, rather than stay to vote for change. Suburb living also has twice the greenhouse gas impact as well.
    - ndarwincorn 7y ago
      Those of us still here that prefer empathy would rather you follow your 'fellow-minded' folks and just leave. Seattle's had this tension between the left and the liberals for a century. Traditionally you lived on the outskirts. You're welcome to go back if the city offends your sensibilities.
      - stochastastic 7y ago
        Does there need to be a line drawn here? I don’t think there is a contradiction between empathy and enforcement. For example, I would really like an end to the bike and package theft and I think it is reasonable to enforce laws against it. Do you disagree?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kontorlaore 7y ago

The purpose of this article is different - someone will say "the safety situation in Seattle is terrible because of ultra-liberal drug policies". Then you are supposed to reply with this article as a counter. And New York Times beats The Seattle Times, so you've won the argument. It's all about providing a counter-narrative to prevent cognitive dissonance.

notadoc 7y ago

It's certainly not just Seattle either, the large-scale homeless/junky situation describes basically every west coast city. There's obviously a much deeper problem.

throwawaysea 7y ago
Isn’t the problem simply overly liberal policy making? It seems moderation has disappeared on the West coast, and these cities basically don’t enforce laws against those pursuing a nomadic drug centric lifestyle on the backs of taxpayer supported land/amenities/services.
allana 7y ago
The severe wealth stratification that has occurred over the last few decades has left the majority of Americans facing a grim future of low earnings and unstable employment. Its easy to see how that would make many people depressed and lead to a cycle of addiction to escape this crappy reality.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Bollocks, overall more people are rising out of poverty
  - TheHypnotist 7y ago
    Tell that to those forced out by skyrocketing housing costs a la San Francisco, and as I've come to understand, parts of Seattle.
    - sleepybrett 7y ago
      (Most of Seattle)
  - fwip 7y ago
    The official poverty line is drawn by the government. It's great news for them if the poverty line rises slower than cost of living increases.

rayiner 7y ago

It's interesting people always point to Portugal to support the idea that decriminalization is the way to address substance abuse. But compare Sweden, which has similar levels of drug dependency to Portugal, but takes a "zero tolerance" approach to drug use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden. While Sweden does include treatment as part of its drug policy, that is a complement to, not replacement for, strict law enforcement. (Swedes are very anti-drug. While a narrow majority of even Republicans in the US support legalization of cannabis, 83% of Swedes support keeping it illegal: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-cannabis/in-anti-drug-sweden-investors-take-shine-to-cannabis-stocks-idUSKBN1GZ2FQ. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-cannabis/in-anti-d...)

DanBC 7y ago
> According to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), in 2005, the rate of drug-related deaths per capita in Sweden was more than twice that of the Netherlands and there were more persons addicted to severe narcotics ("heavy drugs") than in other countries It doesn't seem to be working that well, does it?
- rdtwo 7y ago
  Is drug related death really the right stat to use? Seems like it doesn’t tell the whole story.
  - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    Considering the low rate of drug usage in Sweden amongst the general population it seems to tell a sorry story about Swedish drug policy...
stefan_ 7y ago
So they throw people in jail and end up having the same outcomes as Portugal that doesn't? Gee, you are making it very difficult to choose which policy I prefer!

xenocyon 7y ago

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attracting" homeless to the city, despite the fact that the data show this trope to be a fiction.

refurb 7y ago
Tough on crimes folks oppose trash pick-up? Really?
- xenocyon 7y ago
  Yep, the argument I've heard is that it legitimizes encampments. Additionally I suspect people are outraged by the notion that homeless people could get trash pickup for free from the city when housed people have to pay for theirs - even though it would be a lot cheaper than sweeps.
- rdtwo 7y ago
  I think it’s more of a liability problem. Once the city starts garbage cleaning the city becomes exposed to liability from the encampment because it can be argued that its sanctioned now.
- lacker 7y ago
  I imagine a conversation like: Q: What should we do about this homeless encampment? The options are: 1. Provide it with free trash pickup so that it's a slightly nicer place to live and to be around 2. Shut it down, remove the tents as well as the trash, make the inhabitants move elsewhere And then I would expect the "tough on crimes" crowd would prefer option #2 to option #1.
  - refurb 7y ago
    That makes more sense. I read it as “opposed to trash pick-up in general” and then thought “who the hell would be opposed to that?”

autokad 7y ago

I see people shooting up in public places, people walking around naked, doing wheelies on a wheelchair on high traffic roads, drug needles laying on the side walk, etc. I think enforcing these laws would make Seattle safer and an overall better place to live.

diogenescynic 7y ago
I thought you were describing San Francisco.

mAEStro-paNDa 7y ago

> The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. It's an opinion piece.

TheHypnotist 7y ago

When I was out there last fall, we stayed in Belltown and walked all over. I'm wondering, where was all this squalor you speak of? I came out with a very different impression of the city than you describe. Obviously you would know better, so I'm just wondering, did I get lucky?

fwip 7y ago
I live in Seattle and take the bus to work downtown every day. I think I've seen, maybe three needles in five years.
- thomasmeeks 7y ago
  I've lived in Seattle for 1.5 years. I became numb to the hyperbole around the homeless problem here in 6 months. One side is talking facts, experimentation, and trying new things. The other side is talking feelings, fears, and taking every misstep as an opportunity to abandon any notion of solving the problem in an ethical way. It is really interesting, especially on a site like HN, because the latter is directly contrary to the ethos of most startups.
  - exolymph 7y ago
    https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
tony_cannistra 7y ago
The geography of homelessness in Seattle still eludes me, but Belltown just isn't one of the high-concentration areas. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Pioneer Square and the International District are hotspots. This may be due to shelters and missions (places to get food and housing) being more concentrated there. Homelessness and drug use also comes in very different forms even within Seattle; I live in Ballard, and most of our homeless and drug-addicted community lives in beaten-up RVs parked on the side of the road.
7y ago

tenaciousDaniel 7y ago

I've heard that it's not legal to force people into rehab. But I can't see why this can't be done under something like the Baker Act. If you're physically addicted to drugs, you are to some extent not capable of making rational choices, and this means you are a threat to yourself and to those around you. Could this not be a legal pretext to detain someone (humanely) and bring them to rehab treatment? Seems like a better alternative than jail, and certainly a better alternative to letting drug addicts rot on the streets. I'm also not a lawyer and have no idea what I'm talking about, so feel free to lay into me and let me know why this idea is wrong or even crazy.

proverbialbunny 7y ago
Usually how it works is if you break the law (eg, steal something) and get caught, you are arrested, then you get to see a judge. At that point it is up to the judge to push rehab as a punishment or prison. This depends on the laws of the area, the offense, and if this is a repeat offense.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
I think you are in the right morally, and legislative position is not relevant - it should be based on morals. Various countries have/had absurd laws, such as making it illegal to insult the supreme leader, suicide is illegal, and having legal slavery, heresy, the list goes on and on. Today we regard those laws as stupid and cruel, and hopefully one day we will regard persecution of addicts with the same incredulity as we regard witch-hunts

tryitnow 7y ago

Interesting. Some of the benefits of decriminalizing can probably only be realized if it's done as a national level, so I'm pretty skeptical of just how successful local initiatives can be. I wonder how Portugal achieved such supposed success in decriminalizing drug use.

jmcqk6 7y ago

>I do believe that there needs to be an honest discussion about the limits of rehabilitation. First I think we need to have an honest discussion about actually trying rehabilitation. The criminal justice system is more concerned with retribution than rehabilitation.

deleted 7y ago

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nathansoz 7y ago

Jesus dude. Just the "junkies" comment shows that you aren't even open to a different approach.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Junkies tend to be people with overwhelming problems who can't make their lives work. Throwing people in jail is usually not a means to make their lives suddenly start working. I think you solve problems like widespread drug use by repairing the tattered social fabric that of this country which has taken such a toll on so many of the people who live here.

diogenescynic 7y ago
What about not ruining everyone else’s lives and the public health issues these people create? Not a fan of conservative ideology, but surely there is some level of personal responsibility and accountability they have towards the public? And when they betray that buy shitting on public areas or leaving needles near playgrounds, I think it’s not only reasonable but necessary to incarcerate them—for their own good and the public’s.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Lack of adequate housing supply is a contributing factor to homelessness. If you are just throwing people in jail and not addressing issues of that ilk, it rapidly becomes unsustainable. Criminals in jail are a burden on society. Functional, productive, tax paying citizens are assets to society. Rehabilitation is not charity. It's enlightened self interest. I'm not advocating for kind of bleeding heart "charity" here.