8 ms·

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill t

• xtracto 7y ago
  I havent played any of his games but now would love to do it. I like dwarf fortress and generally am bummed with the gameplay in current games.
  • IggleSniggle 7y ago
    Try Cogmind.
    • eropple 7y ago
      Cogmind is really cool and really pushes (to a screaming breaking point) what you can do with "ASCII art". It also helps that the developer is a very chill person, for sure. But to the GP, you should go play his games! Try "Avernum: Escape from the Pit", his remake of his remake of his original game (he's got a system down pat). It's the best game he's made, IMO, and the iPad version is really good if you've got one lying around. PC/Mac version is good too, of course, but I found the touch interface really nice and a refreshing way to play a game I'd already exhaustively completed twice, so I'd hope it'd meet more modern sensibilities pretty well.
    • steeleduncan 7y ago
      Also in that vein, Caves of Qud is worth a try.
  • aoeusnth1 7y ago
    Ever tried Factorio?
• LugosFergus 7y ago
  You and me both! I thought this thread would have a bit more praise for Jeff's work after all of these years, but it's just a bunch of Debbie Downers taking a collective dump on it just because they don't like the look. While the style may not be modern, the gameplay and stories tend to be quite good. I would also argue that a game that looks great doesn't necessarily imply that the game is any good. Battlefront 2 is a great looking game that is ultimately a soulless, lootbox filled shitshow with painfully bland gameplay. Anyone saying that he needs to hire an art director have completely missed the point of his article: his business can only support his family. He has also been able to maintain this business for 20 years, which is a lot more than can be said about any other indies. Ultimately, this is a style that Jeff likes, and it makes him money. If people don't like it, then they can go play something else. He still has his fan base that keeps him afloat. EDIT: grammar
• gbersac 7y ago
  I only played one of his game (avalon), but I finished it. As a casual / very hard to please player, finishing a game is a rare event. Congrats to him. And the graphism are good enough imo.
  • mumblemumble 7y ago
    This, for me, is the thing that really distinguishes Spiderweb's games: it seems that nobody else out there is still making CRPGs that I actually finish. Other games look beautiful, yes, but they also somehow always end up getting kind of boring several hours in.
    • marktangotango 7y ago
      Same here, very few games hold my attention long enough to finish, and his games do. Jeff's been a very good citizen of the indie game scene for a long time. I have a great deal of admiration for him and what he's accomplished.
• mark-r 7y ago
  I suspect he knew exactly what the reaction would be when he wrote the article.
  • ehsankia 7y ago
    Yeah, when you write such an abrasive post, literally ending with "haters gonna hate" and basically implying that anyone who doesn't like the art is stupid, I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expect to get.
    • sprafa 7y ago
      Don’t know what article you read. He said the art being shit makes business sense to him
      • ehsankia 7y ago
        I've been reading this article, which one have you been reading? https://i.imgur.com/rZozQHD.png https://i.imgur.com/rZozQHD.png
        • sprafa 7y ago
          I don’t understand how that implies people who dislike his art style to be stupid. I’d see the expression more as a reflection of “find your niche, ignore everyone else”
          • tripzilch 7y ago
            It's not. It's not an art style, it's the lack of one. And then he compares it to retro games with an actual art style and says this is "good enough for him". Calling it an art style is an affront to people who DO spend the time and effort on these things. So he explains it makes business sense for him to not care about art direction. Okay fine. But then don't drag other games into it.
          • ehsankia 7y ago
• SkyBelow 7y ago
  It has been a long time since I played his games but I always really enjoyed the original exile games. I haven't gotten into the newer Avalon remakes as much, but that is mostly a time constraint issue as there are many games and so little time. My memories as a kid are that they were great games if you liked rpgs.
• CydeWeys 7y ago
  I haven't played these games, but I've put hundreds of hours into NetHack with pure ASCII graphics, so I totally get it. I briefly tried using some of the graphical versions but didn't end up liking them so much, so back to the ASCII it was.
  • perl4ever 7y ago
    My first exposure to roguelikes was an Amiga graphical version of Hack in the 80s, so I always felt like they were "supposed to" have something more than ascii. But when I tried Diablo, I was really disappointed. It's not that the polished graphics detracted from anything, but that the depth of interaction was lacking. I remember seeing a first person shooter after years of ignoring games, and being really impressed by the advances in graphics, but in seconds, I could see it was still a world made of indestructible cardboard, which was very disappointing. I suppose things have improved somewhat, depending on genre, but anyway, the issue is that people are easily distracted by graphics, not that they detract from anything per se.
• nslav 7y ago
  I have fond memories of playing Exile II as a 10 or 11 year old. My dad worked at Boeing at the time, and there was some sort of store where the company sold surplus supplies where he bought used Macs for me and my brothers. These were not fast computers so it was thanks to Exile II "looking like crap" that we were able to play it at all!
  • zapzupnz 7y ago
    > There were not fast computers so it was thanks to Exile II "looking like crap" that we were able to play it at all You're making the mistake of thinking that a game that looks good must use more resources. That doesn't make sense. If one took the exact same resources and gave them a more consistent art style, keeping the same file sizes or even lowering them, the games could look just fine and yet still fine on a low-end machine. Better looking graphics or art != larger file sizes.
• baud147258 7y ago
  Vogel's using the level of graphic quality that work for him, but that doesn't excuse the inconsistent art direction and mixed art styles.
  • KyleBerezin 7y ago
    The art style is mixed because he reuses most of his graphics. I think his pot sprite is almost 20 years old now. He just doesn't want to commission new art for every game. New objects and skills need new art, and I'd doubt Philip Foglio is still available to draw them.
    • sprafa 7y ago
      Lol seriously the dude runs with sprites from 20 years ago? That’s seriously amazing
      • zaphar 7y ago
        I agree, it's seriously awesome that he was able to get that much value out of that Sprite.
• nothis 7y ago
  I'm with you on the games being excellent examples of a super niche style done well but he's basically writing an article attacking the very concept of art direction as a waste of resources. That comes off a little disrespectful towards people who care. I think there's no point in making their games looking any different than they do (because it's part of their brand, now) but the correct response to a question of why they don't make a "better" looking game is that they don't care. Or, maybe, it's a taste issue. Flailing your hands about how people totally did not appreciate you going through the trouble of making the graphics isometric or hiring underpaid artists is not the way to go. It's maybe "honest" but it's IMO at best a misunderstanding of and at worst a severe lack of respect for art direction and visual design.
  • sprafa 7y ago
    Disrespectful ? The dude says his games look like crap. He doesn’t say everyone else’s should. He’s explaining why it makes business sense for him to do so! This is business 101 from a sucessful indie game dev
    • tripzilch 7y ago
      He also says his games look like crap because that's how old games look to him. Yes he has business sense, he also has no taste.
      • infectoid 7y ago
        Now this seems disrespectful.
  • jimbokun 7y ago
    > but the correct response to a question of why they don't make a "better" looking game is that they don't care. Or, maybe, it's a taste issue. No, he plainly states it is a cost issue. He can't afford to hire the people who could create truly "good" art for his games.
    • 7y ago
• arkades 7y ago
  Yes. I’m looking forward to that n-gate’s webshit weekly take on this.
• thecupisblue 7y ago
  Me too! If it wasn't for the Avernum series, I probably wouldn't be speaking english that well or posting here right now!
• BirdieNZ 7y ago
  I remember playing Exile: Escape from the Pit. Great game, the graphics didn't matter because the story was what was important.
• crooked-v 7y ago
  > The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be I feel like "exactly as good as they need to be" would actually be quite a bit simpler and, through lack of clutter, easier to use. See, for example, the Caves of Qud art style - https://i.imgur.com/Tul3mn3.png https://i.imgur.com/Tul3mn3.png - which is substantially less visually complex than any of the Spiderweb Software games but, IMO, much easier to interpret.
  • CobrastanJorji 7y ago
    Could not agree more about simplicity, although I don't think he's using "good" to mean "complicated." Simple, minimalist art can be nearly as difficult as rich, complex art, and these games are neither of those. "Exactly as good as they need to be" means "graphics and interface are of a sufficient quality to not significantly hamper interaction with the game, but just barely." For example, a chess board drawn freestyle in crayon with a bunch of black and white poker chips that have "pawn", "knight", etc written on them in sharpie is "exactly as good as it needs to be," but it sure as heck isn't the same thing as an elegantly minimalist chess board.
• zapzupnz 7y ago
  It's not my understanding that having a fond nostalgia for somebody's works excuses the article's salty tone that basically tells people they're wrong for thinking the games are ugly, coming up with all manner of excuses but never once embracing that the problem is entirely the developer's own and nobody else's; yes, that point is laid out there but it's given as an excuse, not as a justification. There's a fine line.
  • haolez 7y ago
    He is not saying that everyone is wrong. He is saying that some people like it, most people don't, and the ones that do like it are enough to keep his business afloat.
  • eridius 7y ago
    > unprompted The guy's been getting criticisms for 25 years. I think he's justified in writing a single blog post in defense of his art style. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.
    • zapzupnz 7y ago
      What does the 25 years have to do with it? There are developers who've been in the industry for far less time who are much more reactive and responsive to criticism. If anything, that mention of 25 years is an indictment, not anything worse praising. Also, 'art style' is a stretch. Finally, yes, if I don't like it, I don't have to read it. Yet, I did, and I'm free to express my dissatisfaction and disagreement with the article's message: if you don't like it, you don't have to read it.
      • austhrow743 7y ago
        >What does the 25 years have to do with it? It means it's not unprompted. It's a reply.
    • tripzilch 7y ago
      > I think he's justified in writing a single blog post in defense of his art style. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it. I think he's justified in writing a blog post about his business decision and should have kept it at that. But defending this as an "art style" is like making really shitty cheap knockoff "vintage style" furniture and claiming part of the reason is because you love the artistic style of historic wood working. No you do it for the money, and people who actually like vintage historic wood work might get annoyed that you are pushing your work as the same.
• grawprog 7y ago
  Looking at the screenshots in the article, I actually liked the graphics in Avernum 3 and even Escape from the Pit, they seemed consistent and actually pretty well done if a bit simple. I understand the complaints about Queen's Wish. They're not necessarily bad, I don't mind a lot of the tiles, but something does seem off with it. That being said, I've seen far worse and if the gameplay's good then it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. I've actually been tempted to buy Avadon the black fortress a few times. It keeps showing up on steam(after reading this I had to double check, for some reason I had a feeling it was one of his games), again i find the graphics to be appealing. I'm just not sure if i want to invest the time into an RPG right now. It seems like an easy solution would be to allow the tiles in the game to be editable and let people make new ones if they're unhappy with the ones that ship with the game.
  • duskwuff 7y ago
    > They're not necessarily bad, I don't mind a lot of the tiles, but something does seem off with it. The problem I have with it is that it all looks really generic -- like default "RPG Maker" tiles or stock art. The old-school Exile art was simple, but it was unique and had its own distinctive style.
  • sha666sum 7y ago
    I never managed to play any games in the Avadon series, because they don't have as good keyboard shortcuts as the Avernum series. One of the Avadon games even has a Linux port, which wasn't done by Jeff himself
    • duskwuff 7y ago
      Way back in the day (like, around 2000), there was a Linux port of Exile 3: https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/exile3/linuxexile3.html https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/exile3/linuxexile3.html I don't think it'll run on a modern Linux system without a lot of hacking, though.
      • Narishma 7y ago
        It's easier to run the Windows version in wine.
• stickfigure 7y ago
  I still occasionally play Nethack. In a terminal. I've seen graphical frontends for the game but IMO that stuff just gets in the way.
  • perl4ever 7y ago
    The first version of Nethack I played had graphics for the walls and empty space only.
• NoodleIncident 7y ago
  If he only was talking about his own art, then fewer people would be rubbed the wrong way. However, at regular intervals throughout this article, he feels the need to accuse his critics of also disliking other games with simple art. I think it's these quotes in particular that are the most pitchfork-worthy of the lot: - (Screenshot of Ultima V) - "This is what looks normal to me" - "Queen's Wish has a very retro square-tile top-down view, reminiscent of old Ultima games, old Pokemon games..." - (Screenshot of Baba is You) - "If a game that looks like this can be a hit, maybe there can be room for me?" - (Screenshot of Atari Adventure) - "If you don't like it, maybe the problem is you." Apart from maybe(!) Atari Adventure, all of those games look far better than Queen's Wish. Even Ultima V shades one side of its walls, something none of his games have accomplished based on these screenshots. It's an insulting strawman to say that the people criticizing his art would also reject these other games with simple art. It's also insulting to the artists who worked on those games, producing better results in a similar budget. Maybe the insult is unintentional, because he genuinely can't tell the difference himself. But if that's the case, he should just admit that, rather than hiding behind his choice to use a top-down perspective.
  • tripzilch 7y ago
    > Even Ultima V shades one side of its walls, something none of his games have accomplished based on these screenshots. It's the hundreds of tiny details like this, that make for great design and good art, regardless of how retro the medium is. That's what this guy seems to be utterly blind to, and it really rubs against people who DO like to spend the effort and time on such tiny details to get the design just right ... only for this guy to call it "looks good enough for me" and then imitate it badly. Just stick to the business explanation, because there's nothing wrong with running a business on shitty art.
• bsder 7y ago
  There are two problems: 1) the poor art actually causes one significant design fault and 2) I think the problem is actually that his art is too good in places. 1) If you look at Avernum 3 and Queen's Wish, the characters you are supposed to control don't "stick out" visually. I must have looked at the Avernum picture half a dozen times and actually missed the 3 other characters in the picture other than the cloak and the dragon. That's a huge mistake in visual design--and that is the fault of the designer not the artist. QW has similar issues in that the character design isn't very distinctive: without those horrible colored circles you can't tell friend from foe. And the visual design of the characters makes distinguishing classes difficult. Again, that's designer failure--not art failure. 2) If you look at QW, there are 4 different levels of art. The bottom icons are gorgeous and would fit in a AAA game. The portraits look like potato cam from 1999. The characters look like bad pseudo 2.5D from 1993. And the background sprites look like they are from "My First RPG Maker". You can choose any of those, be consistent, and people won't feel too bad. Look at Exile and Avernum--they have a consistent art level across everything and don't strike me as ugly. What you cannot do is mix and match the levels--that's very jarring and people will complain.
• awillen 7y ago
  On the plus side, this is the top comment, so the silent majority seems to agree with you. Art just isn't critical to making amazing games... some old BBS games like Tradewars 2002 will always be among my favorites, and their ASCII images barely qualified as art.