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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
- AFascistWorld 7y agoThe “Post-Truth” Publication Where Chinese Students in America Get Their News https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-truth-publication-where-chinese-students-in-america-get-their-news https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-trut...
- dirtyid 7y agoA summary of College Daily rebuttal to the piece: https://supchina.com/2019/08/21/college-daily-fires-back-at-the-new-yorker-accusing-it-of-bias-and-fabrication/ https://supchina.com/2019/08/21/college-daily-fires-back-at-...
- shkkmo 7y agoI... don't see the rebuttal. There is no demonstration on inaccuracies in the original reporting, just a bunch of complaining about bias.
- dirtyid 7y agoBiased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives and in this case, deliberate omissions to dismiss the publication as purveyor of fake news is crux to many Chinese complaints against western MSM. See all the Huawei 5G hit pieces from a nominally free 5th estate that somehow manages to replicate the manufactured consent of state propaganda. IMO people who lived under propaganda, especially journalists, editors or other media professionals are also equipped to identify it. >The editor claimed that during their talks, he explained to Zhang how much effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references. But none of these went into the final piece. > “In the profile, there is no mention of all the insight, knowledge, experience, and stories that I shared with her about the new-media industry. Instead, it made up some lies and criticized Chinese publications like ours for producing fake news.
- shkkmo 7y ago> Biased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives and in this case, deliberate omissions Was there bias in the reporting? sure. Is there bias against China in the MSM? sure. That isn't a rebuttal. > >The editor claimed that during their talks, he explained to Zhang how much effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references. But none of these went into the final piece. This is the same editor who the article quotes as admitting to complete fabricating a story? If there is so much good information about "effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references", why did none of those details make it into the rebuttal? > Instead, it made up some lies What lies? If there were lies, they should be specifically identified.
- dirtyid 7y agoI was careless to label the response as a rebuttal. The merit and significance of the response for me was the contextualizing of the original New Yorker piece under a pattern of western MSM bias designed designed to undermine and dismiss Chinese perspectives. College Daily is the equivalent of Buzzfeed / Gawker. They don't do good reporting, I'm aware of the controversies surrounding the brand. But to portray it as some primary source of information for Chinese student diaspora while dog whistling the publication as Chinese Breitbart instead of calling it a sensationalist clickbait shitrag where _some_ Chinese kids get their culture war bonerings is disingenuous. The fact that there are many Chinese voices that dissent to the standards of the publication on Chinese social media should indicate that there is understanding of the nature of the publication and the niche that it serves. Titling the article: "The “Post-Truth” Publication Where Chinese Students in America Get Their News" is the kind of headline one would engineer to dismiss Chinese perspectives given the timing of the article to recent Chinese political activations in western societies.
- shkkmo 7y agoI frankly see less wrong with that headline than I see wrong with most headlines today. The term "Post-Truth" as an accurate descriptor of College Daily seems to have come directly from Lin: > Pressed to articulate the identity of his publication, Lin used the phrase “post-truth,” which he attributed to the New York Times, to express his belief that the true essence of things is fundamentally unknowable and that the meaning of the news of the day depends on the spin one chooses to put on it. EDIT: The article itself also makes a point of including Chinese with perspectives on College Daily.
- mrtweetyhack 7y agoStay in your own country and wait to get harvested
- deepVoid 7y ago> When Chinese students step outside of China to study, they are struggling to adapt to a new education system, and are frequently confronted — in class, in daily life, and online — with assumptions that they have been “brainwashed by the Chinese government.” It makes some feel attacked and reaffirms what they were taught in China: The West is biased and hostile. Many Chinese people in the West still read the same propaganda, hang out with the Chinese people. It is difficult for them to be un-brainwashed.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dclowd9901 7y agoI was going to say, according to the author's own words, it would be very reasonable to describe him as having been brainwashed.
- seppin 7y ago> It makes some feel attacked and reaffirms what they were taught in China: The West is biased and hostile. It's easier when you want to believe something, to believe it. No matter what the source is.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoThis. Much of the media consumed is shaped more by the biases of their viewers, less the other way around.
- seppin 7y agoSaying that mainland Chinese are "brainwashed" is excusing their very real, and very widespread hostility and bigotry. Extreme nationalism and a deep sense of grievance wasn't invented by the CCP, and they won't hesitate to use it to solidify their power (war, greater authoritarian crackdowns, etc.)
- iamshs 7y agoFirst time I got an accurate map of India was when I stepped out of it. Whole of Kashmir is shown as Indian territory in all books and newspapers, even the area that is under administration of China and Pakistan. It was quite something. Other aspects opened up too, but the map thing was quite outrageous example. With international media availability, graphics have become better now thankfully.
- pmikesell 7y agoCan you explain this a little bit? Isn't there a big issue right now between India and Kasmir? You're saying it's actually under the administration of China? I'm sorry if this sounds naive - I guess I have no idea what's going on in the world.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y agoStart here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict#/media/File:Kashmir_region_2004.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict#/media/File:K... Yellow: controlled by India, green: controlled by Pakistan, red: controlled by China.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- cthalupa 7y agoIndian maps show them as having control of all of Kashmir. In reality, control of Kashmir is split between India, Pakistan, and China.
- selimthegrim 7y agoHaha did they put Karakoram highway on Indian map too?
- chupasaurus 7y agoIndia doesn't recognize any other countries' control over lands in Kashmir region.
- socrates1998 7y agoChinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay full price tuition. This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in western country.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoWanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s
- booboolayla 7y agoAnd we sure don't miss a chance to deride ourselves when we do it, but God forbid we apply the same standards to everyone else.
- markus_zhang 7y agoI saw plenty of examples that westerners who do the same...it's just not reported in western medias.
- 100100010001 7y agoThe OC was being sarcastic. The USA is the most entitled country! USA citizens even call the country America or ‘Merica’ as if they aren’t part of one of two continents called America (if you’re in the USA then the two continents are North and South). Which means every person trying to cross the USA border is AMERICAN!!!
- 100100010001 7y agoWhy the down votes? Which statement is false?
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- ajdlinux 7y agoA similar article by Vicky Xiuzhong Xu, a journalist in Australia: https://www.smh.com.au/national/blinkered-chinese-nationalists-are-trolling-me-but-once-i-was-one-of-them-20190818-p52idd.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/blinkered-chinese-nationalis...
- neonate 7y agohttp://archive.is/uRskn http://archive.is/uRskn
- realplayer6 7y agoThey're fake protests funded by the American government https://twitter.com/chenweihua/status/1159364746329632768 https://twitter.com/chenweihua/status/1159364746329632768 https://i.imgur.com/WPrwfKf.jpg https://i.imgur.com/WPrwfKf.jpg
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y agoSerious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For example, the mainland Chinese government has been painting the HK protests as the work of a tiny terrorist minority, so solidly commented footage of 1M+ peaceful protesters should jar their world view a little.
- realplayer6 7y agowhat is "Chinese government propaganda"?
- Joakal 7y agoAsk them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan Democracy experiment and Tiananmen Square (Both asked for democracy as a peaceful resolution)? If they do for either, are they aware of the list of demands from protestors (China has been trying to portray the events as destructive people and censor the demands). All of this is on Wikipedia and many news websites. Which are censored in China for a good reason.
- iLoch 7y agoI like this more than my own answer. Asking them if they understand the motivations of the protesters is an excellent line of questioning.
- bgee 7y ago> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China. Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.
- msie 7y agoWe have the same problem with the extreme left and right in the US although I am more annoyed with the MAGA supporters out there.
- avs733 7y agoFalse dichotomy is functionally the same as what is being described here. The larger problem is generations of people who have been socialized and brought up to accept lies told by people with power and positional authority. At that level it is country/culturally independent and manifests in what the content and scale of the lies are.
- aidenn0 7y agoThis is what annoys me most with the political system today. If you are opposed to open borders then the left calls you racist. If you talk about anthropogenic global warming, the right accuses you of spreading fake news. Everything has become so partisan, nobody wants to cede even a millimeter of ground to the other side, so taking the most extreme position has become the norm in debate. It is strategic, (if you want to prevent government regulation on global warming, spending years debating on whether or not it even exists rather than on what the solutions will be is rather effective), but very disingenuous.
- shkkmo 7y agoPartisanship in this country is a huge problem. It also has been deliberately encouraged by our leaders. In a number of measures, the effects of partisan bias are much stronger than the effects of racial bias. [0] [0] https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/dems-gop-polarized-10-08-14.html https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/dems-gop-polariz...
- markus_zhang 7y agoFrom my PoV, the protesters should target the big families instead of targeting the mainland government/people. I mean why give your support to anyone who blames you, and unjust-fully? Let alone that many protesters are indeed violent...
- ryanobjc 7y agoWow, shill much? Well now you are receiving an informal education on how propaganda is used to separate people from each other, and make enemies where shared goals should exist. Like all educations, you get out of it as much as you put in to it. Good luck.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ccccppppp 7y agoOr how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 soldiers with machine guns, but he said it was true. As suspected, I couldn't find any reputable sources for this later when I did extensive googling.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y agoIt's worrying that our concept of extensive searching relies entirely on one advertising conglomerate.
- spaced-out 7y agoMaybe that's YOUR concept, but not everyone's. If you go to Wikipedia, you can look at citations from a variety of sources, which doesn't depend on Google. You could go to the website of various news organizations and search through their archives, which also does not depend on Google.
- Mengkudulangsat 7y agoWorry not! These days we also have Scihub, which is an absolute eye-opener for me as someone who never bothered with research papers before.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoThere is a lot of nuance there. Some soldiers were killed by protesters, but it wasn’t the student protesters rather beijingers who were pissed about the PLA coming into town (the PKU students were already mostly back in their dorms by this point). The soldiers also weren’t armed, this being early and back then they were afraid to just give the soldiers weapons (not all of the PLA agreed with the crackdown). They eventually brought in troops from further away garrisons fully armed that were less sympathetic to the protesters (local garrisons back then were staffed with soldiers from Beijing). So your colleague wasn’t completely lying, but the truth belies a lot more intrigue. I think this is all in the wiki article. The biggest problem (at least from the CPC’s point of view) is that the PRC completely lacked non lethal riot suppression capabilities. They literally had nothing in between just standing there unarmed and full on military assault. Afterwards, they built up the PAP (people’s armed police) very quickly, and you can see them often practicing in Beijing.
- appleiigs 7y agoI had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China. Really made an impression on me. I bet most of my beliefs are baloney too, but I have no idea which ones they are.
- 1propionyl 7y agoI had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye opening.
- markus_zhang 7y agoIt just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.
- wrs 7y ago"I can't imagine any other government could do better." Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it?
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- ryanobjc 7y agoSo "better" entirely depends on your values, right? Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees?" Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness. There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of argumentation.
- ijiiijji1 7y agoBrainwashed kids don't know any better... they'll do whatever their friends are doing. Moooo.
- Mikeb85 7y agoI think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember worse times. For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest. The unfortunate thing is that they'll fail. The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Rich HKers will leave. In the end, the protests will only hurt HK. Occupy Wall Street didn't do anything, successive Ukrainian revolutions never lasted either. Ukraine is often cited: after the Orange Revolution, Yanukovych eventually came back to power. Poroshenko had his time, but lost in the biggest landslide in Ukraine's short history. Now Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe, they're not in the EU, they're not in Nato, they lost Crimea, Donbass is at war, and while Zelensky can't possibly be any worse, there's no clear sign things will get better.
- schuke 7y agoThey protest not because they don't have money, but because Beijing is essentially taking their money away by eating into their legal system, which is ultimately what makes HK competitive.
- roboys 7y agoChina decolonizing and unifying. Anyone aligned with the wrong incentives (undermining/sabotaging China) will get put-right shortly.
- r3n 7y ago> In the end, the protests will only hurt HK. I want to point out that Hong Kong people tried every way they can before this protest. They are aware the consequence.
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- bgee 7y agoDisclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese and would like everyone to have universal suffrage. I've seen repeatedly both from people in mainland and "westerners" to assume the people of Hong Kong want independence from mainland China but this is not true. The majority of people (protesters) didn't even mention this in their 5 demands[0]. [0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-fulfilled-thousands-hong-kong-anti-extradition-law-protesters-rally-sha-tin/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-fulf...
- markus_zhang 7y agoI'd really worry for HK if the government agrees to all five points.
- jumelles 7y ago> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage. Which of those things would make you worry, and why?
- yaowenjiaozi 7y ago#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police behaviour. Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order and incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward. Supposedly Hong Kong's laws/ordinances governing the conduct of independent inquiries contain provisions against self-incrimination, which is possibly another means for rioters and their organizers to safeguard themselves against prosecution by presenting at the independent inquiry. I say "supposedly" because while chapter and verse were quoted, I haven't looked them up myself and IANAL anyway. The "protestors" are demanding non-negotiable acceptance of all 5 demands.
- euske 7y agoI think the recurring theme is whether every individual is strong enough to deserve truth and freedom. I'm a West-leaned person so I want to believe yes, but empirically I know this is not the case for many (perhaps myself included!), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a society which believes otherwise. They might not be a total dictatorship, but people would think some form of oppression is necessary or even preferred. I feel China is certainly one of those countries, but can't really say if most Western countries are polar opposite. It's a perpetual dilemma. p.s. the country I live (Japan) is rather wishy-washy about this. The law in theory respects individual freedom, but in reality people don't really appreciate the idea that much. And I see a plenty of people who believe that the government will never do anything wrong.
- sullyj3 7y agoI think the key point is that governments are made of fallible people too. If not everyone deserves individual freedom, then certainly not everyone deserves power over others. And autocracies don't provide any facility for ensuring that those in power are in any way deserving.
- AdrianB1 7y agoI grew up in a Communist country in Eastern Europe and the article hits the nail; most of the education was single sourced and filtered by the Communist Party, there was never any debate over it, it was an axiom. Then Communism fell and 30 years later the thinking is different, the knowledge is different and healthy discussions are possible, but most people still have strong socialist/communist positions; some were never able to grow above their indoctrination, some were benefiting from that system, but it is very hard to understand people that are 35 - 40 that have a love for Communism, they were too young to be indoctrinated at that time.
- Leary 7y agoThe thing that many people in the West do not realize is that exposure to Western media actually hardens Chinese perceptions. There are many examples of Chinese students who lived many years in China whose perceptions of their homeland is far different than what they see is being portrayed on CNN/Fox, etc. The reason why this occurs is not that CNN/Fox are factually incorrect but that they tend to focus on sensationalist/negative stories about China. Therefore it is somewhat naive to think that bringing uncensored information to the Chinese will somehow change their mind. Just look at the inability of people to change pro-China posters in this and many such posts on HN, who presumably have access to uncensored information, and who are often suspected of being "shills" or robots that are part of a Chinese disinformation campaign.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoMost news focuses on sensationalist or negative stories about anywhere. Otherwise why would people watch it? It isn’t like 7pm in China when all tv stations are playing news about what uplifting things Xi said today. PRC Chinese have been conditioned into a certain mindset about news that doesn’t exist anywhere else.
- zwaps 7y agoIf you like "toy models" of these phenomenon, you will love this paper https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yves_Zenou/publication/228284014_Formation_and_Persistence_of_Oppositional_Identities/links/5b5fa216a6fdccf0b20264e7/Formation-and-Persistence-of-Oppositional-Identities.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yves_Zenou/publication/...
- dnautics 7y agoOne of my colleagues was a stanford-undergraduate, harvard-grad-school (at the time biochemistry postdoc) who grew up in china. He was somehow fed information that Muslims don't eat pork because they worship pigs. I tried to correct him but he was insistent that he was correct. An otherwise extremely intelligent human who had no difficulty reconciling conflicting evidence and information (e.g. in science)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- v-yadli 7y agoCurious: how did you correct him? Also just FYI, the Muslim people live with Han people together in most areas of China (you can just go to about any cities in China and start sampling) and most Han people have learned to respect the Muslim religion, to not even talk about pigs, pork or even spam in front of them. I think the "worshiping pigs" misconception may just come as a result of good will trying to avoid embarrassment and conflicts and not talking about any of that at all, and thus the ignorance.
- vinni2 7y agoHe is probably confusing it for a Hindu belief which prohibits them from eating beef because Hindus worship cows!
- tareqak 7y agoIn times like this one, I think it is important to revisit the Allegory of the Cave [0][1]. Try to think about the cave as wherever you personally started your own education instead of broadening it to any given country. Once you have an idea of what that is and what that is not, imagine that that entire universe (cave, outside the cave, etc) itself being encompassed within yet another cave and world outside that cave. What if there is yet another cave and another world outside the cave wrapping this second one? And so on. Update: I guess another thing to think about would be what if someone in at one depth of the cave tried to take someone out from within what seems to them a deeper level of the cave? And the opposite, what if someone from the cave tried to reach out of the cave and bring someone they think is in what appears to be a cave to them to their own cave. Another update: The last link in the posted article is an interesting read in terms of the actions people take when they start thinking that they were inside a cave [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave [1] https://web.stanford.edu/class/ihum40/cave.pdf https://web.stanford.edu/class/ihum40/cave.pdf [2] https://supchina.com/2019/05/01/truth-hidden-in-the-dark-chinese-international-student-responses-to-xinjiang/ https://supchina.com/2019/05/01/truth-hidden-in-the-dark-chi...
- Ensorceled 7y agoThis actually reminds me of the conversations I had with a Cuban classmate. He explained it as a combination of propaganda and “elders” memory. His grandmother would always tell him about how bad it was before Castro and Communism and the government would be spreading propaganda about how great things were; it’s a potent combination. I expect China is in the same place, things are so much better for the average Chinese citizen and the propaganda machine is running full tilt.
- ferest 7y agoIf the media still kept connecting the group behavior to government propaganda, it's never going to get any closer to the reason behind this. The Chinese students in western world are not just showed up in recent 5-10 years, a logic from "they have different opinions" to "they must be brainwashed by their evil government" is pretty ignorant, or rather naive. I think the right question to ask here is why they were not heard before. hypothesis 1, they were silenced. Chinese students were in great disadvantage no matter in population or in capital compare with groups holding different ideas. The students from hong kong, taiwan are more exposed to the western world because there were more chance they could get into the social groups financially - think if there are person in your social group paid 10x less than yours, and emotionally - you might have visited there because it's easier to get in and out and enjoy as foreigner. Media tend to report things you might interest with, either it might show up in your day to day life, or those odds could catch your eyes - people pays more attention to stories from those escaped from mid-east than those actually living in mid-east. This factor changed in recent years, because both number and wealth have been increased a lot for Chinese students. hypothesis 2, they silenced themselves. The culture difference, language disadvantage and huge gap on life quality, the 1st generation migrants are tend to stay low profile - the mexico migrants also had that in history. This factor also changed a lot in recent years. These two factors exist in all minority groups. Back to this topic itself, Chinese students are heard now(and ironically thanks to their HK peers), and why they hold different opinions? The Chinese students' background could be vary, but one thing is in common - they were from China, and the CPC ruled China helped their family gained wealth so they could stand in the same street with you. Due to the same reason, they are naturally more vigilant when the medias are reporting news completely fell into one side, and when they are trying to find different view, there is state media - the same thing happens in US, the media are pushing people either towards right or left, especially when the a situation can't be simply marked as "good" or "bad", being labeled negatively make them join the group protecting their identities. Not even mention for this generation, HK has been part of China since they start understanding the world, they would try to look at the similarity between them and hker, meanwhile hker were still showing off their superiority (like girlfriend who keep showing gift from her ex) Everyone has their rights to express their opinions. But the role media playing that divides us, is more dangerous
- mips_avatar 7y agoSomething needs to be done about the poor assimilation of Chinese students on American campuses. We had a particularly bad incident at Penn State where the Chinese student association held a banquet, and performed a rap saying that “all Americans will soon call China daddy”. https://supchina.com/2018/04/27/nationalist-chinese-rap-provokes-penn-state-cssa-response/ https://supchina.com/2018/04/27/nationalist-chinese-rap-prov...
- chibg10 7y agoAny active assimilation efforts will almost certainly backfire and would be a massive civil rights infringement. All immigrants, not just Chinese, tend to associate with their own ethnic subgroup in the US and always have. Time is the only real assimilator. That said, the CCP does and will continue to actively attempt to influence Chinese living in America and the US needs to take a look at that.
- mips_avatar 7y agoI think the universities could do more to build friendship and a campus community between the Chinese students and the rest of the university.
- gweinberg 7y agoNext up: Why northerners don't understand why southerners see the Confederate flag as anything other than a symbol of white supremacy.
- leric 7y agoCan you imagine a person grow in an environment that all input information is designed to control every single individual's mind, not only what you see and hear, but also how you perceive and think. Simple put: China is the Matrix for real
- 8bitsrule 7y ago"For those us who grew up in a system where information control is all-encompassing, processing ideas contrary to what we were taught and believed all our lives is not easy." Yeah, true. I grew up in the US version of that. It's all different now ... of course.
- vinni2 7y agoIndia is heading in the same direction. They just can’t fathom why Kashmiris would want independence. Most Indians never met and probably will never meet any Kashmiri but they think they know what’s good for Kashmiris.
- fellow2 7y agoSeems not much people talk about "Establish Independent Comission of Inquiry to investigate Police Misconduct and Brutality", which is one of the 5 demands from the HK protesters. HK Government sends police forces to violently suppress the demonstrations. However, i don't think the Chinese students seen these scenes, cos of blocking from China's firewall/media, nor understanding what are the reasons behind these scenes, again cos of the biased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives. Ref: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/29/full-open-letter-hong-kongs-leader-calling-investigation-police-use-force/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/29/full-open-letter-hong-...
- byteshock 7y agoIt’s amazing how much a government can manipulate and brainwash their own citizens. Even when they’re overseas, where they have access to the uncensored internet, they still rely on censored information. The worst part is Chinese students don’t know, refuse to believe, or just don’t care that the information they’re reading is being censored.
- freewizard 7y agoBased on my online/offline interaction with many Mainland Chinese in US/EU born in 80s-00s, those who experienced family eco status going downwards(e.g. parents lose job due to radical policy change, or lose money due to financial implode) may possibly choose to embrace more liberal democratic view during western education; those from economically stable middle class families are more likely to support Chinese Govt view, which are understandably majority of oversea Chinese students. The phenomenon that young HKers, regardless of economic status even young kids of post-97 mainland immigrants, almost unanimously support liberal democratic ideas should probably thanks to pro-democratic narration in their k-12 education. That's said, I agree with this LA Times piece, narration in education (or call it propaganda or brainwash) really matters. Unless there are properly crafted counter message in western education, majority of oversea Chinese students will continue to live in their WeChat walled garden of post truth[1]. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-truth-publication-where-chinese-students-in-america-get-their-news https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-trut...
- hippovsrhino 7y agoJust add these filters to ublock. Don't waste your time with people who, because they are no longer capable of finding what they do intrinsically rewarding, try to give their lives meaning by imagining themselves in some kind of grand historical good guy vs bad guy narrative. At the end of the day you are just providing them with just the entertainment they wanted. news.ycombinator.com##div.comment:has-text(/China|Chinese|Trump|Hong Kong/) news.ycombinator.com##.itemlist>tbody>tr:has-text(/China|Chinese|Hong Kong/) news.ycombinator.com##.itemlist>tbody>tr:has-text(/China|Chinese|Hong Kong/) + tr news.ycombinator.com##.itemlist>tbody>tr:has-text(/China|Chinese|Hong Kong/) + tr + tr
- est 7y ago> Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests The simplest answer is because they don't bother to.
- dpc_pw 7y agoThe irony of Americans thinking it is Chinese who live in a "propaganda matrix"... while reading actual propaganda piece. Yes. "Jeffrey Epstein" was a suicide. Americans electing Trump because... "Russian collusion". Bombing countries all over the world in the name of peace. "weapons of mass destruction". TSA. Prism. Student debt that can't be discharged. Thinking that it's only "other evil governments" that use propaganda and deception, and US Gov. and interests groups are some beacon of truth, sincerity and transparency is just sooo naive. Chinese in American have actual unconstrained access and understanding of both sides, they lived in both places, seen both systems. And you think their opinion is just based on "heavily brainwashing", because it is different than yours? From me talking with Chinese in America, they are acutely aware of realities of the Chinese political system. But they are also acutely aware of realities of the western one. Much more so than Americans. They are not brainwashed, they are very realistic, pragmatic and smart. They just don't share some core beliefs of the western wold. They don't consider democracy as a good in itself. They consider the good of the community in relation to the good of an individual, relatively more important than westerners. And so on. And even when they do agree with theoretical advantages, they see first hand how little of alleged freedoms and benefits of western system actually materializes in practice.
- jialutu 7y agoI have lived in the UK for over 20 years since I was 8, and I have to say I don't understand the Hong Kong riots. For starters, does any of you even know how it all started? The extradition bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there, at the request of Taiwan! I don't ever see that mentioned anywhere. Let me say, this video absolutely riled me (even more so than the ones I’ve seen of the rioters getting violent): https://videos-a.jwpsrv.com/content/conversions/KWwwg9Oc/videos/JGCtT6gS-29576809.mp4?hdnts=exp=1566469029~acl=*/JGCtT6gS-29576809.mp4~hmac=365c430c6493822175fc7d570b1f7d4b4b81af913bdd9f9fa836fd768945a8b0 https://videos-a.jwpsrv.com/content/conversions/KWwwg9Oc/vid... Sure, these guys are “peaceful” as in they didn’t hurt anyone, but watch and observe their actions: 1. The guys postures are incredibly aggressive for starters, for me, I would not call that peaceful at all. 2. Once someone took action to stop them, they held their hands up to make it look like they didn’t do anything wrong 3. They have friends specifically to capture the moment when they look like they were provoked Now taking all of these points into consideration, this is an intentional provocation to have someone take action against them and make themselves look like the good guys. Here is my question to you all, what would you have done in those situations? Forcefully make them stop? Then that makes you the bad guy, and could potentially have you beaten up (let’s look at the number of thugs they have behind them). Call the police? Then the police will look like the bad guys, which is probably their intention anyways. So personally, I do not buy the “protests” being peaceful at all, maybe it was at the start, but there are a lot more violence from these “protesters” that are not being reported.
- president 7y agoNot saying you're wrong but you're way too confident on your stance when most people don't even have all the facts aside from cherry-picked bits from biased media (regardless of side). I have been following the protests since the beginning and I seem to remember things were peaceful until bad actors (violent police and hired thugs) came into the picture. There has also been evidence of false flag operations so how would you even know how to pick apart the real protestors from the provocateurs?
- jialutu 7y ago
- president 7y agoPremise of the question is completely wrong. It's not a matter of not understanding the protests. It's more that they want the outcome benefits their own "kind". Chinese priorities are in optimizing for family, riches, and career. Anything that gets in the way of that whether it's the environment, human advancement, HK protests will be quashed.
- tomohawk 7y agoThe goal of every fascist regime such as the CCP is to perpetuate itself, and to do that it must indoctrinate the population against their own best interests. It must make them think that the state is the important thing. In China, Mao starved tens of millions to death because they had the 'wrong' ideas in their heads, and the expedient thing to do was to get rid of them while indoctrinating a new generation. And lo and behold, those that lived through Mao's predations now see what they believe to be a miracle that things are so much better now, as long as they knuckle under to the CCP. They could have been better without all of the killing and suppression. Those things were only necessary for the preservation of the CCP.
- thewileyone 7y agoI could understand Hong Kong protesting to stop extradition of Hong Kong residents by Beijing because it could open too many doors. However, the original extradition request was for a murder suspect to be extradited to Taiwan, which I don't see anything wrong it. Now, they've gotten the extradition rescinded, what else are they protesting for? That's the real question that the protesters are not answering. It's almost as if they're protesting for the sake of it. I think there's foreign influence involved because a pain for China is good for others, like a orange-tanned person I don't have to name. All-in-all, with the world watching, China won't commit another Tiananmen. What they will do is to squeeze Hong Kong dry of business and money and leave it as just another backwater city.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- entrynode 7y agoI think you may be slightly misinformed there, the extradition bill has not been fully rescinded, only suspended. The protests continue with the demands of 1. Withdraw the bill 2. Carrie Lam steps down 3. An independent inquiry into police brutality 4. Release of protesters arrested 5. Universal Suffrage There's plenty of reasons for them to protest without blaming foreign influence
- _tik_ 7y agoI think the Chinese have different point of view about the protest. The lack of support is not because of the CCP propaganda. The Mainland Chinese view about Hong Kong in the current protest environment is not any different from what the Mainland Hong Kong for the past few years The view in The Mainland Chinese is HK ppls are racist and snobbish towards Mainland Chinese . Which is If you spoken to HK peoples. That is not far from reality. Here a couple of links to illustrate https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-16828134 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-16828134 https://qz.com/442887/how-hong-kong-is-different-from-china-in-a-series-of-offensive-stereotype-based-posters/ https://qz.com/442887/how-hong-kong-is-different-from-china-... At the same time Mainland Chinese look at hk problems is an economic problem. Due to insecurity of the rising china and inequality created since the British policy.
- silentmajority1 7y agoIt's very hard for people to think different, if you were born in an environment that ever since you were born, the ideas of loving/supporting the party is a must because she saved us, a-single-unified-country is the most important for our success, we were once the most wealthy country but got robbed by the western countries and Japan now it's time to take things back...etc. were instilled to you from kid's songs, cartoons, tv shows, books... basically everything around you.
- shdh 7y agoThey're brainwashed. Many of these Chinese students think the government filtering the Internet in China is beneficial because it prevents the spread of "harmful information"
- aiyodev 7y agoThis article is a perfect example of why free speech is important for everyone. There’s a lot of talk about censoring people who have the wrong opinions, that communicating an wrong idea is harmful. Communicating incorrect opinions about China allowed the author’s friends to correct him. And now he can share a unique perspective that they cannot because they were never on the wrong side of the issue.
- aussiegreenie 7y agoChina controls ALL CHINESES LANGUAGE media excluding The Epoch Times controlled by Falun Gong. China uses both carrots and sticks to enforce the views of the CCP. The Chinese government will arrest your entire extended family if you undertake "political" actions, that is, try and use the normal Chinese laws to ensure your rights.