7 ms·

Haven't these pro-Beijing students ever tried to access uncensored information online that was denied to them until they arrived in their host countries? Why ar

Haven't these pro-Beijing students ever tried to access uncensored information online that was denied to them until they arrived in their host countries? Why are they content to continue believe in the propaganda? You'd think that even a casual search for a subject like Tiananmen Square would be a wake-up call.

pascoej 7y ago
That’s just western propaganda /s
cbsks 7y ago
If you've unknowingly been fed propaganda your entire life, it's easy to dismiss the truth as propaganda from the "enemy".
tomc1985 7y ago
Their government incentivizes this behavior. They will be willfully ignorant to those events so that they can maintain social standing back home.
sevilo 7y ago
That’s not how propaganda works, I assume the vast majority of these students haven’t left the country until close to adulthood. I completed elementary school in China and the teaching begins in grade 1 for students to believe in communism and patriotism. When you have been raised in that belief for your entire life, changing your belief system is not as simple as “look what other people with a different view say!”. Same goes for how people in other countries have a hard time understanding the need for civilians to hold guns, and yet no matter how many logical reasoning you throw, a large portion of Americans still believe in guns. Edit: my comment was downvoted, unsure if it’s because the comparison for gun law in the states provoked someone, but if that was the case it just goes to show how difficult it’d be for someone to change the belief system they’ve been raised with
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  This is one reason I decided to go back to America once we had a kid. I’m not a big fan of nationalism. Unfortunately, I’m a bit worried about American schools, many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state, which was definitely not true when I was a kid. It just feels like something China would do but the USA shouldn’t.
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    > many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state Haven’t court decisions rendered pupils’ participation in the pledge of allegiance optional in all 50 states?
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Yes. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t require time be set aside for it and for it to be socially awkward to opt out.
      - __sy__ 7y ago
        > socially awkward to opt out random aside, there was a kid in my Texas high-school who stopped saying the pledge around the time of the 2003 Iraq war. While I didn't necessarily agree with the method, a few of us did appreciate the fact that he did that; it showed that sometimes the most patriotic thing you can do is not blindly support your government.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Texas even requires parental consent on opt out, so the kid had to have a good support network.
        __sy__ 7y ago
        Random q: where were you based in China?
astine 7y ago
Their sense of loyalty and identity is the reason. People are hesitant to absorb information that questions their identity and they're even more hesitant when they feel that that identity is being threatened. Their sense of identity in this case is not just something random but something instilled in them since a young age by the Chinese government. They feel a loyalty to the Chinese government and so are willing to propogandize themselves. Bear in mind, if you are a Chinese national studying abroad you are probably well off as far as Chinese nationals go. This means that you are probably a strong beneficiary of the current Chinese regime. So you're likely to be very attached to it, unlike people who are not well off or are repressed. Those people probably aren't studying abroad.
- thedudeabides5 7y ago
  Agree here. In terms of cognitive dissonance, it cuts both ways, think about the systematic elimination of native american tribal lands, slavery, Jim Crow, the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII, etc. Everyone has their starting point, usually strongly associated with their cultural or familial identity. It takes a while for other info to filter through.
  - A2017U1 7y ago
    It very much cuts both ways. We need far less nationalism in the world. It's never led to anything good.
    - dondawest 7y ago
      Didn’t it lead to ending slavery tho?
monksy 7y ago
This is a massive brainwashing that they've done. That's hard to reverse without directly pointing that out. Due to "political sensitivity" that won't be. (People are afraid of standing up to china) A few things that are going on: (Check up on Serpentza+laowhy86 videos) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc - The Confucius Institute is pushing propaganda campaigns in Unis and in public (Their adverts are spammed everywhere) - In China, they do have people that are willing to turn you in for "violations" (non-government.. citizens) -- See the video: they'll even try to interrupt talks in the US to "correct the record" - Forums. Again SerpentZA has found that they are collecting together in Chinese only forums to doxx and harass. Death threats are common there.
SamReidHughes 7y ago
Do you think Americans are going to hate their country after reading about MKUltra? How about solitary confinement? WMDs in Iraq?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Do you think Americans are going to hate their country after reading about MKUltra? One, we don’t censor that information. Two, I’d expect most Americans to freely criticise those government actions, as well as the people and agencies responsible. The latter is prohibited in China.
  - SamReidHughes 7y ago
    So what? I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4. Your response and the others here have nothing to do with that.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4 I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. Consider pre-Snowden public opinions on mass surveillance. The public didn’t know and didn’t believe. Once the information came out, however, people believed. Some actions were taken, and on many fronts activism got aggressive. (A large minority accepted the new facts while deeming it acceptable. A smaller minority thinks the disclosures themselves were a conspiracy.) It would be surprising if a majority of Chinese students, after learning about the massacre at Tiananmen Square [1], rejected it as a global propaganda campaign. Some will. More than in America, given the energy given to brainwashing by Beijing. The difference will be in the number who believe it happened but defend it as having been necessary. Teaching the worth of democratic values is tough. The violence exhibited towards the Hong Kong protesters, and Beijing’s emissary’s support of it as patriotism, exemplifies that. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...
guardiangod 7y ago
The civilians are not supporting the China Communist Party- they are supporting the unification of China, by whatever mean possible. Call it the Chinese Manifesto, if you will. South China Sea expansion, Taiwan, HK, Belt and Road Initiatives. Chinese believes that all these are from their ancestors, and one day China will reclaim all the territories that were stolen from China by foreign powers. I know this sounds racist but it's true. Just go on Youtube and watch all those Simplified Chinese-only propaganda videos.
projproj 7y ago
William Shirer was an American living in Germany during Hitler's reign. Here's what he said about how successful propaganda can be: "I myself was to experience how easily one is taken in by a lying and censored press and radio in a totalitarian state. Though unlike most Germans I had daily access to foreign newspapers, especially those of London, Paris and Zurich, which arrived the day after publication, and though I listened regularly to the BBC and other foreign broadcasts, my job necessitated the spending of many hours a day in combing the German press, checking the German radio, conferring with Nazi officials and going to party meetings. It was surprising and sometimes consternating to find that notwithstanding the opportunities I had to learn the facts and despite one’s inherent distrust of what one learned from Nazi sources, a steady diet over the years of falsifications and distortions made a certain impression on one’s mind and often misled it. No one who has not lived for years in a totalitarian land can possibly conceive how difficult it is to escape the dread consequences of a regime’s calculated and incessant propaganda. Often in a German home or office or sometimes in a casual conversation with a stranger in a restaurant, a beer hall, a café, I would meet with the most outlandish assertions from seemingly educated and intelligent persons. It was obvious that they were parroting some piece of nonsense they had heard on the radio or read in the newspapers. Sometimes one was tempted to say as much, but on such occasions one was met with such a stare of incredulity, such a shock of silence, as if one had blasphemed the Almighty, that one realized how useless it was even to try to make contact with a mind which had become warped and for whom the facts of life had become what Hitler and Goebbels, with their cynical disregard for truth, said they were." [edit] The quote is from The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, which is very good and a surprisingly easy read for how long it is.
- ferest 7y ago
  Excellent quote, propaganda is used to manipulate people, especially those lack of calm mind and neutral view. Sadly though, today's media, especially those online ones, tend to feed you what audience interest with, not neutral on story, nor whole facts, e.g. the same event could be reported very differently on CNN and Fox. I wouldn't be surprised both sides of the arguments here read more news in their interest, or pro-their-views. Doesn't that put them in the situation German had, siloed in one side of the story, even for those educated and intelligent persons. Perhaps a way to having a peaceful conversation is helping both sides to hear, read, understand others' points. It might not be easy though, the media are very much dominated by one language, that majority of one side in this argument doesn't speak, according to [1], 19.3% internet users contributes 1.7% content. In fact, it's VERY hard in this situation, to tell if we are the intelligent German in the story, or the William Shirer, regardless which side you are on. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet
verroq 7y ago
The Hong Kong residents hasn’t really done themselves any favours and won the hearts and minds of the mainlanders. They’ve always been viewed as snobbish and generally hold mainlanders in low regard. It doesn’t help that Hong Kong media makes a big fuss about how uneducated mainlanders are whenever some mother lets her child urinate or defecate on public transport. Most mainlanders still insist that Taiwan is a part of China and Hong Kong’s protests is just some political unrest stirred up by Western countries to cause trouble. Coupled with a lifetime of brainwashing and propaganda (their primary school textbooks have dedicated sections where the students recite their love for their country and the communist party), I am not surprised at this at all. Most still justify Tiananmen Square as something that had to be done to preserve the stability of the country. Secondly, they see any Western criticism as third parties commenting on an internal China political issue, of which they have no right to.
vkou 7y ago
> Haven't these pro-Beijing students ever tried to access uncensored information online that was denied to them until they arrived in their host countries Most (flat earthers/birthers/anti-vaxxers/people who believe all sorts of nonsense) have had access to uncensored information online for years. They continue to believe the various crazy things that they believe. Why do you think political opinions should be any different? Shit, there's no shortage of people who, despite being willing to acquiesce to the factual truth of a statement, will actively choose to disregard it. They'll do it because the statement is incompatible with their political affiliation, because the statement was uttered by a foreigner who should be minding their own business, because the person who uttered it has the 'wrong' political affiliation or religion or class or skin color or background or profession. This sort of tribalism is incredibly normal, and you don't need to travel abroad to find it. I'm deeply concerned by the lack of introspection of anyone painting this as a problem unique to citizens of mainland China.
yfzhou 7y ago
Quite on the contrary, Chinese students usually become way more nationalistic after being abroad and having seen for themselves that the western, developed, free and democratic countries aren't that much better after all. Those who have never lived in the west can't draw comparisons from their own experience so they tend to be more skeptical of Chinese government and fantasize about the west. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Chinese-become-much-more-nationalistic-and-defensive-about-China-after-living-in-the-west https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Chinese-become-much-more-n...
coldtea 7y ago
>You'd think that even a casual search for a subject like Tiananmen Square would be a wake-up call. That assumes they'd agree with the Tiananmen Square protests, which is quite a large assumption. Some might disagree with any protest, like many of people in the US disagree with all kinds of protests (of left and right) -- e.g. because they're pro "law and order" and centrist --, and tons which disagree with protests of left XOR right. Others might agree in principle, but still think China is better off without a regime change, which would be a huge unknown, and might even bring a huge 1.6 billion + country on the brink of chaos and civil war, with power struggles and what have you. Who said such a change is necessarily gonna be a peaceful transition? Officially or unofficially, they already have heard of stories of massive human toil in past power struggles (the "cultural revolution" for one), and might prefer stability and prosperity over democracy. Or they could consider their situation just a-ok as it is, with its warts like many places have, but generally working well for the country (or for their personal interests). Aside from propaganda, people also make their own minds, and what someone else, from another country believes they should be wanting, is not necessary what they do believe.
spopejoy 7y ago
I would like to know how much of this is state-organized thuggery, typical of all authoritarian regimes. As in, directly fund, indoctrinate and direct initimidation and violence against anything that is seen as threatening to the state.

pascoej 7y ago

That’s just western propaganda /s

cbsks 7y ago

If you've unknowingly been fed propaganda your entire life, it's easy to dismiss the truth as propaganda from the "enemy".

tomc1985 7y ago

Their government incentivizes this behavior. They will be willfully ignorant to those events so that they can maintain social standing back home.

sevilo 7y ago

That’s not how propaganda works, I assume the vast majority of these students haven’t left the country until close to adulthood. I completed elementary school in China and the teaching begins in grade 1 for students to believe in communism and patriotism. When you have been raised in that belief for your entire life, changing your belief system is not as simple as “look what other people with a different view say!”. Same goes for how people in other countries have a hard time understanding the need for civilians to hold guns, and yet no matter how many logical reasoning you throw, a large portion of Americans still believe in guns. Edit: my comment was downvoted, unsure if it’s because the comparison for gun law in the states provoked someone, but if that was the case it just goes to show how difficult it’d be for someone to change the belief system they’ve been raised with

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
This is one reason I decided to go back to America once we had a kid. I’m not a big fan of nationalism. Unfortunately, I’m a bit worried about American schools, many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state, which was definitely not true when I was a kid. It just feels like something China would do but the USA shouldn’t.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  > many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state Haven’t court decisions rendered pupils’ participation in the pledge of allegiance optional in all 50 states?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Yes. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t require time be set aside for it and for it to be socially awkward to opt out.
    - __sy__ 7y ago
      > socially awkward to opt out random aside, there was a kid in my Texas high-school who stopped saying the pledge around the time of the 2003 Iraq war. While I didn't necessarily agree with the method, a few of us did appreciate the fact that he did that; it showed that sometimes the most patriotic thing you can do is not blindly support your government.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Texas even requires parental consent on opt out, so the kid had to have a good support network.
        __sy__ 7y ago
        Random q: where were you based in China?

astine 7y ago

Their sense of loyalty and identity is the reason. People are hesitant to absorb information that questions their identity and they're even more hesitant when they feel that that identity is being threatened. Their sense of identity in this case is not just something random but something instilled in them since a young age by the Chinese government. They feel a loyalty to the Chinese government and so are willing to propogandize themselves. Bear in mind, if you are a Chinese national studying abroad you are probably well off as far as Chinese nationals go. This means that you are probably a strong beneficiary of the current Chinese regime. So you're likely to be very attached to it, unlike people who are not well off or are repressed. Those people probably aren't studying abroad.

thedudeabides5 7y ago
Agree here. In terms of cognitive dissonance, it cuts both ways, think about the systematic elimination of native american tribal lands, slavery, Jim Crow, the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII, etc. Everyone has their starting point, usually strongly associated with their cultural or familial identity. It takes a while for other info to filter through.
- A2017U1 7y ago
  It very much cuts both ways. We need far less nationalism in the world. It's never led to anything good.
  - dondawest 7y ago
    Didn’t it lead to ending slavery tho?

monksy 7y ago

This is a massive brainwashing that they've done. That's hard to reverse without directly pointing that out. Due to "political sensitivity" that won't be. (People are afraid of standing up to china) A few things that are going on: (Check up on Serpentza+laowhy86 videos) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc - The Confucius Institute is pushing propaganda campaigns in Unis and in public (Their adverts are spammed everywhere) - In China, they do have people that are willing to turn you in for "violations" (non-government.. citizens) -- See the video: they'll even try to interrupt talks in the US to "correct the record" - Forums. Again SerpentZA has found that they are collecting together in Chinese only forums to doxx and harass. Death threats are common there.

SamReidHughes 7y ago

Do you think Americans are going to hate their country after reading about MKUltra? How about solitary confinement? WMDs in Iraq?

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Do you think Americans are going to hate their country after reading about MKUltra? One, we don’t censor that information. Two, I’d expect most Americans to freely criticise those government actions, as well as the people and agencies responsible. The latter is prohibited in China.
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  So what? I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4. Your response and the others here have nothing to do with that.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4 I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. Consider pre-Snowden public opinions on mass surveillance. The public didn’t know and didn’t believe. Once the information came out, however, people believed. Some actions were taken, and on many fronts activism got aggressive. (A large minority accepted the new facts while deeming it acceptable. A smaller minority thinks the disclosures themselves were a conspiracy.) It would be surprising if a majority of Chinese students, after learning about the massacre at Tiananmen Square [1], rejected it as a global propaganda campaign. Some will. More than in America, given the energy given to brainwashing by Beijing. The difference will be in the number who believe it happened but defend it as having been necessary. Teaching the worth of democratic values is tough. The violence exhibited towards the Hong Kong protesters, and Beijing’s emissary’s support of it as patriotism, exemplifies that. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...

guardiangod 7y ago

The civilians are not supporting the China Communist Party- they are supporting the unification of China, by whatever mean possible. Call it the Chinese Manifesto, if you will. South China Sea expansion, Taiwan, HK, Belt and Road Initiatives. Chinese believes that all these are from their ancestors, and one day China will reclaim all the territories that were stolen from China by foreign powers. I know this sounds racist but it's true. Just go on Youtube and watch all those Simplified Chinese-only propaganda videos.

projproj 7y ago

William Shirer was an American living in Germany during Hitler's reign. Here's what he said about how successful propaganda can be: "I myself was to experience how easily one is taken in by a lying and censored press and radio in a totalitarian state. Though unlike most Germans I had daily access to foreign newspapers, especially those of London, Paris and Zurich, which arrived the day after publication, and though I listened regularly to the BBC and other foreign broadcasts, my job necessitated the spending of many hours a day in combing the German press, checking the German radio, conferring with Nazi officials and going to party meetings. It was surprising and sometimes consternating to find that notwithstanding the opportunities I had to learn the facts and despite one’s inherent distrust of what one learned from Nazi sources, a steady diet over the years of falsifications and distortions made a certain impression on one’s mind and often misled it. No one who has not lived for years in a totalitarian land can possibly conceive how difficult it is to escape the dread consequences of a regime’s calculated and incessant propaganda. Often in a German home or office or sometimes in a casual conversation with a stranger in a restaurant, a beer hall, a café, I would meet with the most outlandish assertions from seemingly educated and intelligent persons. It was obvious that they were parroting some piece of nonsense they had heard on the radio or read in the newspapers. Sometimes one was tempted to say as much, but on such occasions one was met with such a stare of incredulity, such a shock of silence, as if one had blasphemed the Almighty, that one realized how useless it was even to try to make contact with a mind which had become warped and for whom the facts of life had become what Hitler and Goebbels, with their cynical disregard for truth, said they were." [edit] The quote is from The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, which is very good and a surprisingly easy read for how long it is.

ferest 7y ago
Excellent quote, propaganda is used to manipulate people, especially those lack of calm mind and neutral view. Sadly though, today's media, especially those online ones, tend to feed you what audience interest with, not neutral on story, nor whole facts, e.g. the same event could be reported very differently on CNN and Fox. I wouldn't be surprised both sides of the arguments here read more news in their interest, or pro-their-views. Doesn't that put them in the situation German had, siloed in one side of the story, even for those educated and intelligent persons. Perhaps a way to having a peaceful conversation is helping both sides to hear, read, understand others' points. It might not be easy though, the media are very much dominated by one language, that majority of one side in this argument doesn't speak, according to [1], 19.3% internet users contributes 1.7% content. In fact, it's VERY hard in this situation, to tell if we are the intelligent German in the story, or the William Shirer, regardless which side you are on. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet

verroq 7y ago

The Hong Kong residents hasn’t really done themselves any favours and won the hearts and minds of the mainlanders. They’ve always been viewed as snobbish and generally hold mainlanders in low regard. It doesn’t help that Hong Kong media makes a big fuss about how uneducated mainlanders are whenever some mother lets her child urinate or defecate on public transport. Most mainlanders still insist that Taiwan is a part of China and Hong Kong’s protests is just some political unrest stirred up by Western countries to cause trouble. Coupled with a lifetime of brainwashing and propaganda (their primary school textbooks have dedicated sections where the students recite their love for their country and the communist party), I am not surprised at this at all. Most still justify Tiananmen Square as something that had to be done to preserve the stability of the country. Secondly, they see any Western criticism as third parties commenting on an internal China political issue, of which they have no right to.

vkou 7y ago

> Haven't these pro-Beijing students ever tried to access uncensored information online that was denied to them until they arrived in their host countries Most (flat earthers/birthers/anti-vaxxers/people who believe all sorts of nonsense) have had access to uncensored information online for years. They continue to believe the various crazy things that they believe. Why do you think political opinions should be any different? Shit, there's no shortage of people who, despite being willing to acquiesce to the factual truth of a statement, will actively choose to disregard it. They'll do it because the statement is incompatible with their political affiliation, because the statement was uttered by a foreigner who should be minding their own business, because the person who uttered it has the 'wrong' political affiliation or religion or class or skin color or background or profession. This sort of tribalism is incredibly normal, and you don't need to travel abroad to find it. I'm deeply concerned by the lack of introspection of anyone painting this as a problem unique to citizens of mainland China.

yfzhou 7y ago

Quite on the contrary, Chinese students usually become way more nationalistic after being abroad and having seen for themselves that the western, developed, free and democratic countries aren't that much better after all. Those who have never lived in the west can't draw comparisons from their own experience so they tend to be more skeptical of Chinese government and fantasize about the west. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Chinese-become-much-more-nationalistic-and-defensive-about-China-after-living-in-the-west https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Chinese-become-much-more-n...

coldtea 7y ago

>You'd think that even a casual search for a subject like Tiananmen Square would be a wake-up call. That assumes they'd agree with the Tiananmen Square protests, which is quite a large assumption. Some might disagree with any protest, like many of people in the US disagree with all kinds of protests (of left and right) -- e.g. because they're pro "law and order" and centrist --, and tons which disagree with protests of left XOR right. Others might agree in principle, but still think China is better off without a regime change, which would be a huge unknown, and might even bring a huge 1.6 billion + country on the brink of chaos and civil war, with power struggles and what have you. Who said such a change is necessarily gonna be a peaceful transition? Officially or unofficially, they already have heard of stories of massive human toil in past power struggles (the "cultural revolution" for one), and might prefer stability and prosperity over democracy. Or they could consider their situation just a-ok as it is, with its warts like many places have, but generally working well for the country (or for their personal interests). Aside from propaganda, people also make their own minds, and what someone else, from another country believes they should be wanting, is not necessary what they do believe.

spopejoy 7y ago

I would like to know how much of this is state-organized thuggery, typical of all authoritarian regimes. As in, directly fund, indoctrinate and direct initimidation and violence against anything that is seen as threatening to the state.