17 ms·

High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

253 points by LinuxBender 7y ago

nostrademons 7y ago
Would like to see the original study for this, because it seems like something is getting lost in translation. The article mentions 4 major prenatal steroid hormones involved, "two known as androgens", but the headline says that estrogen is linked. Colloquially, estrogen is the female sex hormone and androgens (including testosterone) are the male sex hormones. Molecularly, "estrogens" are a family of different steroid hormones (not a single molecule), and androgens are a family of other hormones, and both of them occur in both males & females but in different quantities. And to muddy the waters further, many androgens are metabolic precursors of estrogens, eg. testosterone is synthesized into estradiol. And to muddy them even further, some molecules (eg. DHEA) are both depending upon which biological receptors they bind to. The title as written contradicts the article, using the colloquial meaning of the words involved. There's probably a more precise technical meaning where everything makes sense, but the article doesn't really explain it.
- omarhaneef 7y ago
  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0454-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0454-9
- meej 7y ago
  The discussion of androgens is of previous work completed in 2015 that the new estrogen work builds upon. The second paragraph explains the former and the third paragraph explains the latter.
charcoal_baby 7y ago
Dr Jordan Peterson Carnivore Diet?
danharaj 7y ago
Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds any water that might be an interesting investigation.
- danbolt 7y ago
  Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/
  - majos 7y ago
    Not parent, but closest thing I can find is the Kaltiala-Heino et al. study [1], found from p7 in this literature review [2]. There it's summarized as "26% of those who had experienced gender dysphoria had previous diagnosis of ASD". But that study has only 47 people (none adults), all drawn from a pair of Finnish hospitals. It looks like an outlier among the others, which suggest something more like 5%. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.568182 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.... [2] https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pdf https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pd...
    - danbolt 7y ago
      Thanks for posting the studies. This might be considered bad faith but the parent comment struck me as anecdotal and I wanted to press where those sources were coming from.
      - danharaj 7y ago
        I didn't take your question as bad faith, I appreciate it actually, but I didn't have time during the work day to cite sources. The one posted is the most scientific one I know of. I have seen self reported surveys of transgender communities that hit numbers that high, but that's obviously not scientifically rigorous. Food for thought tho. I keep myself informed on transgender issues because I have transgender people near and dear to me and I have transgender colleagues at work. In my personal life many of the transgender women I know identify as on the spectrum, some more intensely than others. 1 in 4 sounds right anecdotally as well. Anecdotally, I think it might be true that younger people in general are more receptive to identifying as autistic while people my age or older might be averse to it even with the same experiences.
floatingatoll 7y ago
Summary of study from Nature link, italics mine to prevent likely misunderstandings of their work: > Here we test whether levels of prenatal oestriol, oestradiol, oestrone and oestrone sulphate in amniotic fluid are associated with autism, in the same Danish Historic Birth Cohort, in which prenatal androgens were measured, using univariate logistic regression (n = 98 cases, n = 177 controls). We also make a like-to-like comparison between the prenatal oestrogens and androgens. Oestradiol, oestrone, oestriol and progesterone each related to autism in univariate analyses after correction with false discovery rate. A comparison of standardised odds ratios showed that oestradiol, oestrone and progesterone had the largest effects on autism likelihood.
devoply 7y ago
BPA mimics estrogen, so does that mean that plastics are causing autism? https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/12767 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/...
- fortran77 7y ago
  More likely obesity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/
  - dang 7y ago
    We've asked you numerous times to avoid this topic on HN, since you've inundated threads with it in the past. That request stands, and if you keep breaking it, we're going to have to ban you again. I don't want to do that, so please refrain from going there here.
    - meeks 7y ago
      I don't have a dog in this fight, however, I am curious. Who exactly are you? Who is this "we" you are referencing? And why does this comment need to be avoided?
      - danharaj 7y ago
        Dang is a moderator. Listen to the mods, even if you don't agree with them. It's a thankless task trust me.
      - dang 7y ago
        As danharaj mentioned, I'm a moderator of HN. "We" is me and the other mods. I didn't spell out what I was saying in detail because I don't want to embarrass a user unnecessarily. I know that's confusing, so maybe I'll make a general remark, not about anyone in particular. Sometimes there are users who go rogue on a particular topic that for whatever reason they're obsessed with, and post way too many comments pushing an agenda on that point. This is bad for the site. If people overdo it repeatedly, we ask them to stop and ban them if they don't. Sometimes they create a series of accounts that we ban in succession. Eventually, sometimes, they manage to avoid the topic while participating on HN in other ways. In that case they're welcome here. But if we notice relapses, we remind them to stop and ban them if they don't. We do that because past experience teaches that going a little down that road usually ends in going the whole way. In other words, this is a way to avoid banning a user by selectively banning only a (user, topic) pair instead. It's extra work, but it seems fair to allow someone to participate in the site as long as they avoid the destructive pattern.
fortran77 7y ago
There's a well established link between obese mothers and autism. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/ and obesity leads to higher than normal estrogen levels: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ So this may be the connection.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  Your study doesn't support your summary: > Maternal obesity (BMI ≥30) was only weakly associated with ASD risk, whereas paternal obesity was associated with an increased risk of autistic disorder and Asperger disorder. Paternal obesity couldn't impact womb estrogen levels. There's a weak connection between maternal obesity and ASD risk in the study you linked.
Zenst 7y ago
Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring. However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earliest memory was as a baby, equally I used to have a nightmare that abaieted when I was able to tell my mother who informed me of my birth complications and so much of my nightmare correlated, just seemed so related but then, never know for sure beyond once I knew this, my nightmares stopped. In short, maybe (least in my case) autistic people senses and other parts of the brain kick in earlier at a time when we are less able to process them and this becomes another party of the puzzle. But would I change if I could go back in time and become normal is a question I have asked myself and the answer for me is - no, though the thought of what life would of been like, naturally yields to pondering.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  > index and forefinger are of equal lengths Those are two names for the same finger. Did you mean index and ring ringer?
  - Zenst 7y ago
    I did, thank you, my bad. Glad I dug up a relevant link to dispel my confusion there.
- technothrasher 7y ago
  if I could go back in time and become normal I don't know if this is good news, or bad news but... there is no normal. I know what you meant, what it would be like without ASD. But I'm not sure that would give you any particular insight into anything other than simply being a different person.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Agreed and yes, normal is a perception based upon a mode average. After all, if the majority of people were psychopaths, normal would take on a whole new meaning. Equally it is hard to evaluate such a different timeline as you are evaluating from a different perspective/timeline.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism: the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. It measures things like frequency of meltdowns, ability to handle their everyday life without assistance, ability to "mask" by doing things like holding eye contact or memorizing social scripts, etc. Better brain function in general means that someone on the autism spectrum is less likely to have general life issues that lead to an official diagnosis. Anything that could reasonably be linked to a decrease in IQ can also reasonably be linked to autism. IQ is positively correlated with general life outcomes, and negative life outcomes are part of the diagnostic criteria for autism.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition. Am I missing something?
  - dooglius 7y ago
    We don't know what autism really is, beyond it's symptomatic effects and correlations like that of TFA. It's not clear that there is a meaningful notion of being autistic but asymptomatic. Typhoid, on the other hand, is a bacteria that exists independent of its symptoms.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      "Asymptomatic" just means poor or absent testing, not an inherent property. Better diagnostic tests can detect low visibility symptoms. It's like saying that someone with nearsightedness is asymptomatic and therefore not nearsighted because someone is good at squinting. There are still symptoms if you know what to check for.
Allower 7y ago
"Linked" is a meaningless word in these contexts, and only creates confusion (and clicks).
hannob 7y ago
Word of warning: There's about on study per month finding the cause of autism. Unfortunately each study finds another one.
Nimitz14 7y ago
> However, the team cautioned that these findings cannot and should not be used to screen for autism. "We are interested in understanding autism, not preventing it," added Professor Baron-Cohen. I don't understand why not?
- MartianSquirrel 7y ago
  One shall not see a difference as something bad. Many autistic people have tremendously contributed to our society. The goal in this case is to develop the knowledge and tools that will help everyone use this as a strength.
  - deckar01 7y ago
    Autism is a disorder that can require medical treatment. If a doctor could screen for risk factors and provide medication to pregnant women that reduced the chances of autism developing in the child, it would be their duty.
    - master-litty 7y ago
      Absolutely not. If it were anyone's decision it should be the mother's, and I even find that questionable. Autism isn't inherently bad, it's just different. There's no duty beyond screenings and providing the knowledge.
      - taqcp 7y ago
        Autism is a disorder and at some levels it renders the ailed person simply useless.
        theonlyklas 7y ago
        As mean as this sounds to read, it's the truth. I personally know families who had an autistic child, did their best to accommodate and integrate them, but the child grew up to be nonverbal, destructive, etc. Of course it's not always true. The poster is right that autism isn't inherently bad, just different.
amasad 7y ago
Would be interesting to see what causes high estrogen in the studied women. My guess would be obesity, and potentially plant-based diet high in soy products.
- Inthenameofmine 7y ago
  I think the soy idea has been debunked for some time now. The main external estrogen source is milk and to some extend meat products.
  - amasad 7y ago
    Fake news! Soy has orders of magnitude more estrogen than animal products, even the hormone-implanted ones. > The 1.9 nanograms of estrogen in implanted beef is also minuscule compared to 225 nanograms of estrogen in potatoes, 340 nanograms of estrogen in peas, 520 nanograms of estrogen in ice cream, 2,000 nanograms of estrogen in cabbage, 11,250 nanograms of estrogen in soy milk, and 170,000 nanograms of estrogen in soybean oil… all based on a 3 ounce serving size. One birth control pill contains 35,000 nanograms of estrogen. https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997 https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997
    - citruscomputing 7y ago
      phytoestrogen != estrogen If this were true, all the pre-transition trans women I know would be eating a LOT more soy. Unfortunately, it's not, and can even have the opposite effect, by binding to receptors that estrogen would, preventing it from acting normally.
      - arbitrage 7y ago
        The idea of consuming phytoestrogen in pre-HRT transwomen is pretty widespread, in my experience. Unsure where the idea came from, but it is definitely "in the air". > and can even have the opposite effect This part gets omitted a distressing amount of the time, unfortunately.
    - 7y ago
nottorp 7y ago
What? It wasn't video games?
- irrational 7y ago
  I thought it was vaccines.
ajcarpy2005 7y ago
This makes me wonder if reducing estrogen levels in the child would make a difference in cognitive function.
reilly3000 7y ago
After reading the article I had a brief hypothesis that higher estrogen levels would also be associated with non-heterosexuality. This study seems to strongly concur: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/ > In the group with ASD, 69.7% of the sample reported being non-heterosexual, while in the TD group, 30.3% reported being non-heterosexual. The group with ASD reported higher rates of homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality, but lower rates of heterosexuality
- novaRom 7y ago
  There are also other features. For instance, measuring the anogenital distance in neonatal humans has been suggested as a noninvasive method to determine male feminisation and thereby predict neonatal and adult reproductive disorders. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance
buboard 7y ago
We already have a lot of progress in artificial womb technology. I wonder if studies like this will push towards more research in that direction.
noetic_techy 7y ago
I've had a sneaking feeling that a lot of the phyto-estrogen compounds out their were eventually going to be linked to autism. Expect to see a massive consumer wave against anything containing these compounds: fragrances and any items that contain fragrance, dyes, receipt paper, soy, both BPA and BPS in soft plastics, etc.
- bob_theslob646 7y ago
  Do you know any off the top of your head?
  - noetic_techy 7y ago
    As far as compounds with phyto-estrogens. Plenty. A great book on the topic: The Case Against Fragrance - Kate Grenville Also, I think this story from 2014 about BPS is the biggest bombshell to consumers that just hasn't hit critical awareness yet: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-containers-may-be-just-as-hazardous/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-... All my kids drink from stainless steel or glass now. It's made me a bit of a plasti-phobe.
- Latty 7y ago
  Is there any reason to believe that phytoestrogens would act in a similar way to estrogen, to a significant level, in humans? People throw around this concern a lot, but I have never seen evidence of that. Edit: Elsewhere in this comment thread, the argument appears to be that the opposite may in fact be true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20588240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20588240
Itaxpica 7y ago
I'd take this with... not quite a grain of salt, but maybe a small dose of healthy skepticism. Simon Baron-Cohen is a legitimate and respected researcher, but he's well known in autism research circles as pushing very hard a theory that autism is a manifestation of an "extreme male brain", which is a theory that almost every other significant researcher in the field disagrees with. I'd suggest taking a critical view of any research coming out of his lab that bolsters his pet theory, like this does - there's a lot of context here that's lacking.
- dooglius 7y ago
  It sounds like this is evidence for that view then. Why is the researcher's theory relevant to results that support that theory?
  - Latty 7y ago
    The scientific method is not generally served well by people seeking to find a particular answer, as opposed to the truth. Not saying that is the case here, but I agree with the parent-it inspires some scepticism from me.
    - dooglius 7y ago
      You gererate a hypothesis and then experimentally test that hypothesis, I don't see anything wrong there. How else would you evaluate new theories that go against convention? Maybe you are suggesting that he fudged the data or otherwise manipulated the experiment to get a desired result?
      - Latty 7y ago
        Of course, but there is a difference between having a hypothesis to test, and believing something and setting out to find evidence for it. Those are some extreme examples of that being an issue, but also things like not publishing negative results can also be a result, less obviously. I very specifically said that I was not saying that was what happened in this case, just that I agreed that there was something of a red flag.
iamleppert 7y ago
I have hemophilia, a genetically inherited X-chromosome linked disorder, inherited from the mother. Due to the fact males have an XY chromosome and mothers have two X’s, with one of the X’s containing the faulty gene, it’s possible for a mother to have children with and without the disease. In fact, there is a 50% chance each of her males will have the disorder. Why am I telling you this? Because there is a test that can tell if the fetus has hemophilia or not by sampling blood via amniocentesis. When my mom was pregnant with my brother, she had this procedure done. However, there were complications during pregnancy and my brother, although he was in fact born without hemophilia, has severe birth defects in his lower extremities. It was later found to be directly caused by the test itself. Just goes to show what happens when you try to play god.
- mjevans 7y ago
  Playing god is fine if you've got the technology to back the check you're writing. We aren't there yet, but I hope we end up surviving and maturing to the point where we can "play god" and do so ethically.
- mgamache 7y ago
  Let's get some things straight.. Did they use CVS to get the DNA sample? CVS has birth defect risks. This is not playing God, this is taking a calculated risk because you know of a 50% chance of a birth defect. It is horrible that your brother suffered unnecessarily. I am pretty sure that they can sample the mother's blood to get the DNA needed in 2019 (so no risk of birth defects). [https://www.webmd.com/baby/chorionic-villus-sampling https://www.webmd.com/baby/chorionic-villus-sampling]
beeschlenker 7y ago
Copy and paste this post and repost it. I keep getting censored by these people. Peter Thiel and Jack Dorsey raping and killing three boys each. Turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_100-200.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mzZrjobxhNIEf38M3xk-IeA5SeF4aUtB/view?usp=sharing Obama admits to raping and killing boys here, with commentary from Peter Thiel, George Soros, Matt Porter: https://s3.wasabisys.com/out2/Out2/15JanCh3_0545.avi https://s3.wasabisys.com/out2/Out2/15JanCh3_0545.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCDoc1kT7cfSeKQ1vniP_sx32_bRsHau/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCDoc1kT7cfSeKQ1vniP_sx32_b... Obama explains the Illuminati with Jack Dorsey: https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_200-347.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ok1-9IvANULzKBOwADFgaiYCFi6yszfj/view?usp=sharing At 230 a conversation is occurring on the embedded Porter camera system with Jack Dorsey, Peter Thiel, Barack Obama, Bill M^urray, and the Porter's. Jack Dorsey provides a statement defining who their group is: "The Illum%inati is an underground organization of child rapists and homosexuals." Matthew Porter: "We have to thin the herd, so Barack is going to explain a few things." At 232 Barack Obama says the following: "You people have to realize we are child rapi'sts. The Illuminati are child rapists. As soon as you figure that out, you can decide what to do. Everybody is freaking out about what just happened [child raping event still going on]. This is who ^we are." Full 71 page document: https://s3.wasabisys.com/aviewmefirst/FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf
yread 7y ago
From the study: > This finding appears to contradict an earlier report by Windham et al. [32] that showed that lower levels of oestriol in second trimester were modestly associated with a later diagnosis of autism in the offspring. However, our samples correspond to a slightly earlier time point in pregnancy compared to Windham et al. (mean gestational week = 14.9 vs. 17.2 respectively) (see Table 1) [32], which could potentially better capture the steroid surge during the PMW [14]. Furthermore, our samples are of different origin, as Windham et al. assayed maternal serum, rather than foetal amniotic fluid. Steroid hormone levels in maternal serum do not differ relative to the baby’s sex and do not correlate to amniotic levels during the PMW [42]. So, high levels in blood reduce the autism risk and in amniotic fluid it's the other way around? I'll wait for a replication, I think
frooxie 7y ago
> High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism I wonder how this fits with the "extreme male brain theory of autism".
thenickb 7y ago
Here comes Jenny McCarthy starting the anti-estrogen movement...
not_a_cop75 7y ago
So am I to understand that birth control could be responsible for autism?
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zeleza 7y ago
As always, a reminder that correlation != causation. This shows an association between hormone levels and autism, which is suggestive. But keep in mind that there may be a confounding factor or factors (e.g. the same genes that control synapses that are dysfunctional in autism may be involved in hormonal regulation). Biology is decidedly unlike good code - no modularity, many pleiotropic effects. Something more definitive would be examining pregnancies where oestrogens were artificially elevated, maybe by looking at women who were unknowingly pregnant but continued to take oestrogenic contraceptives.
jsnider3 7y ago
I'm sure the anti-vaxxers will be happy to update their views.

253 points by LinuxBender 7y ago

Would like to see the original study for this, because it seems like something is getting lost in translation. The article mentions 4 major prenatal steroid hormones involved, "two known as androgens", but the headline says that estrogen is linked. Colloquially, estrogen is the female sex hormone and androgens (including testosterone) are the male sex hormones. Molecularly, "estrogens" are a family of different steroid hormones (not a single molecule), and androgens are a family of other hormones, and both of them occur in both males & females but in different quantities. And to muddy the waters further, many androgens are metabolic precursors of estrogens, eg. testosterone is synthesized into estradiol. And to muddy them even further, some molecules (eg. DHEA) are both depending upon which biological receptors they bind to. The title as written contradicts the article, using the colloquial meaning of the words involved. There's probably a more precise technical meaning where everything makes sense, but the article doesn't really explain it.

omarhaneef 7y ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0454-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0454-9
meej 7y ago
The discussion of androgens is of previous work completed in 2015 that the new estrogen work builds upon. The second paragraph explains the former and the third paragraph explains the latter.

charcoal_baby 7y ago

Dr Jordan Peterson Carnivore Diet?

danharaj 7y ago

Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds any water that might be an interesting investigation.

danbolt 7y ago
Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/
- majos 7y ago
  Not parent, but closest thing I can find is the Kaltiala-Heino et al. study [1], found from p7 in this literature review [2]. There it's summarized as "26% of those who had experienced gender dysphoria had previous diagnosis of ASD". But that study has only 47 people (none adults), all drawn from a pair of Finnish hospitals. It looks like an outlier among the others, which suggest something more like 5%. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.568182 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.... [2] https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pdf https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pd...
  - danbolt 7y ago
    Thanks for posting the studies. This might be considered bad faith but the parent comment struck me as anecdotal and I wanted to press where those sources were coming from.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      I didn't take your question as bad faith, I appreciate it actually, but I didn't have time during the work day to cite sources. The one posted is the most scientific one I know of. I have seen self reported surveys of transgender communities that hit numbers that high, but that's obviously not scientifically rigorous. Food for thought tho. I keep myself informed on transgender issues because I have transgender people near and dear to me and I have transgender colleagues at work. In my personal life many of the transgender women I know identify as on the spectrum, some more intensely than others. 1 in 4 sounds right anecdotally as well. Anecdotally, I think it might be true that younger people in general are more receptive to identifying as autistic while people my age or older might be averse to it even with the same experiences.

floatingatoll 7y ago

Summary of study from Nature link, italics mine to prevent likely misunderstandings of their work: > Here we test whether levels of prenatal oestriol, oestradiol, oestrone and oestrone sulphate in amniotic fluid are associated with autism, in the same Danish Historic Birth Cohort, in which prenatal androgens were measured, using univariate logistic regression (n = 98 cases, n = 177 controls). We also make a like-to-like comparison between the prenatal oestrogens and androgens. Oestradiol, oestrone, oestriol and progesterone each related to autism in univariate analyses after correction with false discovery rate. A comparison of standardised odds ratios showed that oestradiol, oestrone and progesterone had the largest effects on autism likelihood.

devoply 7y ago

BPA mimics estrogen, so does that mean that plastics are causing autism? https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/12767 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/...

fortran77 7y ago
More likely obesity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/
- dang 7y ago
  We've asked you numerous times to avoid this topic on HN, since you've inundated threads with it in the past. That request stands, and if you keep breaking it, we're going to have to ban you again. I don't want to do that, so please refrain from going there here.
  - meeks 7y ago
    I don't have a dog in this fight, however, I am curious. Who exactly are you? Who is this "we" you are referencing? And why does this comment need to be avoided?
    - danharaj 7y ago
      Dang is a moderator. Listen to the mods, even if you don't agree with them. It's a thankless task trust me.
    - dang 7y ago
      As danharaj mentioned, I'm a moderator of HN. "We" is me and the other mods. I didn't spell out what I was saying in detail because I don't want to embarrass a user unnecessarily. I know that's confusing, so maybe I'll make a general remark, not about anyone in particular. Sometimes there are users who go rogue on a particular topic that for whatever reason they're obsessed with, and post way too many comments pushing an agenda on that point. This is bad for the site. If people overdo it repeatedly, we ask them to stop and ban them if they don't. Sometimes they create a series of accounts that we ban in succession. Eventually, sometimes, they manage to avoid the topic while participating on HN in other ways. In that case they're welcome here. But if we notice relapses, we remind them to stop and ban them if they don't. We do that because past experience teaches that going a little down that road usually ends in going the whole way. In other words, this is a way to avoid banning a user by selectively banning only a (user, topic) pair instead. It's extra work, but it seems fair to allow someone to participate in the site as long as they avoid the destructive pattern.

fortran77 7y ago

There's a well established link between obese mothers and autism. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006442/ and obesity leads to higher than normal estrogen levels: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7083189/ So this may be the connection.

Someone1234 7y ago
Your study doesn't support your summary: > Maternal obesity (BMI ≥30) was only weakly associated with ASD risk, whereas paternal obesity was associated with an increased risk of autistic disorder and Asperger disorder. Paternal obesity couldn't impact womb estrogen levels. There's a weak connection between maternal obesity and ASD risk in the study you linked.

Zenst 7y ago

Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring. However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earliest memory was as a baby, equally I used to have a nightmare that abaieted when I was able to tell my mother who informed me of my birth complications and so much of my nightmare correlated, just seemed so related but then, never know for sure beyond once I knew this, my nightmares stopped. In short, maybe (least in my case) autistic people senses and other parts of the brain kick in earlier at a time when we are less able to process them and this becomes another party of the puzzle. But would I change if I could go back in time and become normal is a question I have asked myself and the answer for me is - no, though the thought of what life would of been like, naturally yields to pondering.

jacobolus 7y ago
> index and forefinger are of equal lengths Those are two names for the same finger. Did you mean index and ring ringer?
- Zenst 7y ago
  I did, thank you, my bad. Glad I dug up a relevant link to dispel my confusion there.
technothrasher 7y ago
if I could go back in time and become normal I don't know if this is good news, or bad news but... there is no normal. I know what you meant, what it would be like without ASD. But I'm not sure that would give you any particular insight into anything other than simply being a different person.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Agreed and yes, normal is a perception based upon a mode average. After all, if the majority of people were psychopaths, normal would take on a whole new meaning. Equally it is hard to evaluate such a different timeline as you are evaluating from a different perspective/timeline.

ThrustVectoring 7y ago

One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism: the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. It measures things like frequency of meltdowns, ability to handle their everyday life without assistance, ability to "mask" by doing things like holding eye contact or memorizing social scripts, etc. Better brain function in general means that someone on the autism spectrum is less likely to have general life issues that lead to an official diagnosis. Anything that could reasonably be linked to a decrease in IQ can also reasonably be linked to autism. IQ is positively correlated with general life outcomes, and negative life outcomes are part of the diagnostic criteria for autism.

mieseratte 7y ago
> the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition. Am I missing something?
- dooglius 7y ago
  We don't know what autism really is, beyond it's symptomatic effects and correlations like that of TFA. It's not clear that there is a meaningful notion of being autistic but asymptomatic. Typhoid, on the other hand, is a bacteria that exists independent of its symptoms.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    "Asymptomatic" just means poor or absent testing, not an inherent property. Better diagnostic tests can detect low visibility symptoms. It's like saying that someone with nearsightedness is asymptomatic and therefore not nearsighted because someone is good at squinting. There are still symptoms if you know what to check for.

Allower 7y ago

"Linked" is a meaningless word in these contexts, and only creates confusion (and clicks).

hannob 7y ago

Word of warning: There's about on study per month finding the cause of autism. Unfortunately each study finds another one.

Nimitz14 7y ago

> However, the team cautioned that these findings cannot and should not be used to screen for autism. "We are interested in understanding autism, not preventing it," added Professor Baron-Cohen. I don't understand why not?

MartianSquirrel 7y ago
One shall not see a difference as something bad. Many autistic people have tremendously contributed to our society. The goal in this case is to develop the knowledge and tools that will help everyone use this as a strength.
- deckar01 7y ago
  Autism is a disorder that can require medical treatment. If a doctor could screen for risk factors and provide medication to pregnant women that reduced the chances of autism developing in the child, it would be their duty.
  - master-litty 7y ago
    Absolutely not. If it were anyone's decision it should be the mother's, and I even find that questionable. Autism isn't inherently bad, it's just different. There's no duty beyond screenings and providing the knowledge.
    - taqcp 7y ago
      Autism is a disorder and at some levels it renders the ailed person simply useless.
      - theonlyklas 7y ago
        As mean as this sounds to read, it's the truth. I personally know families who had an autistic child, did their best to accommodate and integrate them, but the child grew up to be nonverbal, destructive, etc. Of course it's not always true. The poster is right that autism isn't inherently bad, just different.

amasad 7y ago

Would be interesting to see what causes high estrogen in the studied women. My guess would be obesity, and potentially plant-based diet high in soy products.

Inthenameofmine 7y ago
I think the soy idea has been debunked for some time now. The main external estrogen source is milk and to some extend meat products.
- amasad 7y ago
  Fake news! Soy has orders of magnitude more estrogen than animal products, even the hormone-implanted ones. > The 1.9 nanograms of estrogen in implanted beef is also minuscule compared to 225 nanograms of estrogen in potatoes, 340 nanograms of estrogen in peas, 520 nanograms of estrogen in ice cream, 2,000 nanograms of estrogen in cabbage, 11,250 nanograms of estrogen in soy milk, and 170,000 nanograms of estrogen in soybean oil… all based on a 3 ounce serving size. One birth control pill contains 35,000 nanograms of estrogen. https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997 https://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997
  - citruscomputing 7y ago
    phytoestrogen != estrogen If this were true, all the pre-transition trans women I know would be eating a LOT more soy. Unfortunately, it's not, and can even have the opposite effect, by binding to receptors that estrogen would, preventing it from acting normally.
    - arbitrage 7y ago
      The idea of consuming phytoestrogen in pre-HRT transwomen is pretty widespread, in my experience. Unsure where the idea came from, but it is definitely "in the air". > and can even have the opposite effect This part gets omitted a distressing amount of the time, unfortunately.
  - 7y ago

nottorp 7y ago

What? It wasn't video games?

irrational 7y ago
I thought it was vaccines.

ajcarpy2005 7y ago

This makes me wonder if reducing estrogen levels in the child would make a difference in cognitive function.

reilly3000 7y ago

After reading the article I had a brief hypothesis that higher estrogen levels would also be associated with non-heterosexuality. This study seems to strongly concur: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29159906/ > In the group with ASD, 69.7% of the sample reported being non-heterosexual, while in the TD group, 30.3% reported being non-heterosexual. The group with ASD reported higher rates of homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality, but lower rates of heterosexuality

novaRom 7y ago
There are also other features. For instance, measuring the anogenital distance in neonatal humans has been suggested as a noninvasive method to determine male feminisation and thereby predict neonatal and adult reproductive disorders. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anogenital_distance

buboard 7y ago

We already have a lot of progress in artificial womb technology. I wonder if studies like this will push towards more research in that direction.

noetic_techy 7y ago

I've had a sneaking feeling that a lot of the phyto-estrogen compounds out their were eventually going to be linked to autism. Expect to see a massive consumer wave against anything containing these compounds: fragrances and any items that contain fragrance, dyes, receipt paper, soy, both BPA and BPS in soft plastics, etc.

bob_theslob646 7y ago
Do you know any off the top of your head?
- noetic_techy 7y ago
  As far as compounds with phyto-estrogens. Plenty. A great book on the topic: The Case Against Fragrance - Kate Grenville Also, I think this story from 2014 about BPS is the biggest bombshell to consumers that just hasn't hit critical awareness yet: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-containers-may-be-just-as-hazardous/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-... All my kids drink from stainless steel or glass now. It's made me a bit of a plasti-phobe.
Latty 7y ago
Is there any reason to believe that phytoestrogens would act in a similar way to estrogen, to a significant level, in humans? People throw around this concern a lot, but I have never seen evidence of that. Edit: Elsewhere in this comment thread, the argument appears to be that the opposite may in fact be true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20588240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20588240

Itaxpica 7y ago

I'd take this with... not quite a grain of salt, but maybe a small dose of healthy skepticism. Simon Baron-Cohen is a legitimate and respected researcher, but he's well known in autism research circles as pushing very hard a theory that autism is a manifestation of an "extreme male brain", which is a theory that almost every other significant researcher in the field disagrees with. I'd suggest taking a critical view of any research coming out of his lab that bolsters his pet theory, like this does - there's a lot of context here that's lacking.

dooglius 7y ago
It sounds like this is evidence for that view then. Why is the researcher's theory relevant to results that support that theory?
- Latty 7y ago
  The scientific method is not generally served well by people seeking to find a particular answer, as opposed to the truth. Not saying that is the case here, but I agree with the parent-it inspires some scepticism from me.
  - dooglius 7y ago
    You gererate a hypothesis and then experimentally test that hypothesis, I don't see anything wrong there. How else would you evaluate new theories that go against convention? Maybe you are suggesting that he fudged the data or otherwise manipulated the experiment to get a desired result?
    - Latty 7y ago
      Of course, but there is a difference between having a hypothesis to test, and believing something and setting out to find evidence for it. Those are some extreme examples of that being an issue, but also things like not publishing negative results can also be a result, less obviously. I very specifically said that I was not saying that was what happened in this case, just that I agreed that there was something of a red flag.

iamleppert 7y ago

I have hemophilia, a genetically inherited X-chromosome linked disorder, inherited from the mother. Due to the fact males have an XY chromosome and mothers have two X’s, with one of the X’s containing the faulty gene, it’s possible for a mother to have children with and without the disease. In fact, there is a 50% chance each of her males will have the disorder. Why am I telling you this? Because there is a test that can tell if the fetus has hemophilia or not by sampling blood via amniocentesis. When my mom was pregnant with my brother, she had this procedure done. However, there were complications during pregnancy and my brother, although he was in fact born without hemophilia, has severe birth defects in his lower extremities. It was later found to be directly caused by the test itself. Just goes to show what happens when you try to play god.

mjevans 7y ago
Playing god is fine if you've got the technology to back the check you're writing. We aren't there yet, but I hope we end up surviving and maturing to the point where we can "play god" and do so ethically.
mgamache 7y ago
Let's get some things straight.. Did they use CVS to get the DNA sample? CVS has birth defect risks. This is not playing God, this is taking a calculated risk because you know of a 50% chance of a birth defect. It is horrible that your brother suffered unnecessarily. I am pretty sure that they can sample the mother's blood to get the DNA needed in 2019 (so no risk of birth defects). [https://www.webmd.com/baby/chorionic-villus-sampling https://www.webmd.com/baby/chorionic-villus-sampling]

beeschlenker 7y ago

Copy and paste this post and repost it. I keep getting censored by these people. Peter Thiel and Jack Dorsey raping and killing three boys each. Turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_100-200.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mzZrjobxhNIEf38M3xk-IeA5SeF4aUtB/view?usp=sharing Obama admits to raping and killing boys here, with commentary from Peter Thiel, George Soros, Matt Porter: https://s3.wasabisys.com/out2/Out2/15JanCh3_0545.avi https://s3.wasabisys.com/out2/Out2/15JanCh3_0545.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCDoc1kT7cfSeKQ1vniP_sx32_bRsHau/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCDoc1kT7cfSeKQ1vniP_sx32_b... Obama explains the Illuminati with Jack Dorsey: https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_200-347.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ok1-9IvANULzKBOwADFgaiYCFi6yszfj/view?usp=sharing At 230 a conversation is occurring on the embedded Porter camera system with Jack Dorsey, Peter Thiel, Barack Obama, Bill M^urray, and the Porter's. Jack Dorsey provides a statement defining who their group is: "The Illum%inati is an underground organization of child rapists and homosexuals." Matthew Porter: "We have to thin the herd, so Barack is going to explain a few things." At 232 Barack Obama says the following: "You people have to realize we are child rapi'sts. The Illuminati are child rapists. As soon as you figure that out, you can decide what to do. Everybody is freaking out about what just happened [child raping event still going on]. This is who ^we are." Full 71 page document: https://s3.wasabisys.com/aviewmefirst/FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf

yread 7y ago

From the study: > This finding appears to contradict an earlier report by Windham et al. [32] that showed that lower levels of oestriol in second trimester were modestly associated with a later diagnosis of autism in the offspring. However, our samples correspond to a slightly earlier time point in pregnancy compared to Windham et al. (mean gestational week = 14.9 vs. 17.2 respectively) (see Table 1) [32], which could potentially better capture the steroid surge during the PMW [14]. Furthermore, our samples are of different origin, as Windham et al. assayed maternal serum, rather than foetal amniotic fluid. Steroid hormone levels in maternal serum do not differ relative to the baby’s sex and do not correlate to amniotic levels during the PMW [42]. So, high levels in blood reduce the autism risk and in amniotic fluid it's the other way around? I'll wait for a replication, I think

frooxie 7y ago

> High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism I wonder how this fits with the "extreme male brain theory of autism".

thenickb 7y ago

Here comes Jenny McCarthy starting the anti-estrogen movement...

not_a_cop75 7y ago

So am I to understand that birth control could be responsible for autism?

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zeleza 7y ago

As always, a reminder that correlation != causation. This shows an association between hormone levels and autism, which is suggestive. But keep in mind that there may be a confounding factor or factors (e.g. the same genes that control synapses that are dysfunctional in autism may be involved in hormonal regulation). Biology is decidedly unlike good code - no modularity, many pleiotropic effects. Something more definitive would be examining pregnancies where oestrogens were artificially elevated, maybe by looking at women who were unknowingly pregnant but continued to take oestrogenic contraceptives.

jsnider3 7y ago

I'm sure the anti-vaxxers will be happy to update their views.