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28% of Europeans Can't Afford a 1 Week Annual Holiday

96 points by infodocket 7y ago

rchaud 7y ago
Instead of waffling about 16 year olds, did anybody notice that the underlying data source was provided, and is a dashboard that can be modified? The URL is absurdly long, so I won't post it here but it is right there in the 2nd paragraph. If I change the "Household Type" filter to only show "Households with Dependent Children", the EU-28 rate is 31.2% in 2017, with the lowest in Norway at 7.3%. The 2018 numbers are estimates.
Ayesh 7y ago
A vague statement. For the expense of staying in a private room and eating out for 2 days in Amsterdam, you can spend a week in Croatia. This, and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are all meaningless. I find the Big Mac index to quite useful. I'm working on a new web site that we try to list a similar a metric (affordability of traveling to each country, factored by the traveler return rate, etc). Comparing EU with countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, France, etc vs Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, is orange vs apples.
- cheeze 7y ago
  > and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are all meaningless What? How is it meaningless at all? Because other countries are cheaper? Edit: To elaborate (since OP hasn't responded yet)... Implying that it means nothing to have no savings because other countries is IMO just wrong. Moving to another country (especially from the states) is difficult and incredibly expensive. It's the same argument for within the states. "Well why don't you just move to somewhere cheaper?" Because moving is super expensive and if you have no money, and no savings, how are you going to move? Just pack up all your shit and move to Mexico, right?
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Because Americans don't "save" their money in traditional savings accounts anymore. They shove it in investment accounts of varying types (less common) or retirement accounts (more common). When there's an emergency we tend to put it on credit and then use the time that buys to get money out of one of those other accounts and pay down the balance. Even many people who are living paycheck to paycheck are making some sort of 401k contribution which, while not a proper "savings" slush fund, can serve the same purpose of being able to cover an emergency expense if needed.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Americans definitely keep emergency cash in savings accounts or at the worst, money market accounts. I doubt "Americans" as a generalized entity even have investment accounts, outside of whatever tax advantaged account employer offers. By and large, "Americans" probably just don't have sufficient cash flow to create a decent emergency fund, and/or they lack the discipline. I would hope that higher earners and higher educated are trying to keep at least 6 months of highly liquid assets available, i.e. cash in savings accounts or money market funds.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    > if you have no money, and no savings, how are you going to move? If you have no money, and no savings, you probably have nearly no stuff too. That means, if you can get a days work at minimum wage, you can afford the cheapest bus trip to almost anywhere on the same continent. If you want less risk, and can get 3 days work at minimum wage, you can afford a return bus trip incase you can't find work at the destination. People don't move because they don't want to lose friends and family, not because they can't afford to.
    - cheeze 7y ago
      This is literally how tons of people end up going homeless. It's a lot harder than just "pack up the few things I have and dip out" People totally can't afford to move in many cases. But I've never been that poor to be fair. And I'm guessing you haven't either.
- joelrunyon 7y ago
  Have you seen how nomadlist.com does this?
- notahacker 7y ago
  Spending a week in a hotel in Croatia doesn't seem quite so cheap if your salary is paid in Croatia, which is why although the press release doesn't qualify "holiday" it does provide a country by country breakdown indicating that most Romanians and Croatians and very few Swedes feel priced out of an annual holiday. Agreed that your own index sounds like it would be useful data for other reasons. The more notable thing is just how sharp the downward trend in the number of people saying they were unable to afford a holiday has been. http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-056348_QID_-7C5F790E_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;HHTYP,L,Z,0;INCGRP,L,Z,1;UNIT,L,Z,2;INDICATORS,C,Z,3;&zSelection=DS-056348INCGRP,TOTAL;DS-056348INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;DS-056348HHTYP,TOTAL;DS-056348UNIT,PC;&rankName1=HHTYP_1_2_-1_2&rankName2=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=INCGRP_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName6=GEO_1_2_0_1&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=ROLLING&time_most_recent=false&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23 http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMA...
  - joncrane 7y ago
    So is it fair to say "the percentage of Europeans who can't afford a 1 week annual holiday is steadily dropping and most recently sits at a low of 28%?"
    - candybar 7y ago
      The starting point for this series is the global financial crisis and the drop seems to be driven mostly by Eastern European countries whose economies have been rapidly growing over that time period.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  The Big Mac index is completely unrelated to savings in a country. You may not understand what these are telling people but that only makes them meaningless to you.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Oh but it is. BigMacParity index can tell you if you can afford the holiday in your country but not in another. I bet most people in EU can actually afford a semi decent holidays in the country they earn in. Obviously not all. This is essentially a decent measure of "can you take x time of a break, spend a bit and not go bankrupt".
- bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
  I too like the Big Mac index as a relative measure of cost of living the way that most people actually live their lives. I'd be very interested to see your new website once it is ready! Happy to provide some thoughts too if you're still hashing stuff out for it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    The other index should be called a Bankrupcy Index. Which would be a measure of a likelihood you'd go bankrupt or indebted forever, per country. Potentially extended with Credit Index - how likely is an average person to get a loan the size of local house, car or medical bill.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > The popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are...meaningless. How do you figure?
  - adventured 7y ago
    Because it's entirely fraudulent. The headlines keep claiming that around 40% of Americans can't afford a surprise $400-$500 bill. The actual number is around 12% according to the Fed survey that the headlines are intentionally misleading about. It keeps getting pointed out that the claim is false, however the propaganda value is too sweet so it keeps getting abused. https://outline.com/rqAedK https://outline.com/rqAedK https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40... https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/report-economic-well-being-us-households.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/report-economic-... https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/middle-class-doing-okay-no-need-gloom-doom/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/middle-class-doing-ok... https://www.cato.org/blog/it-true-40-americans-cant-handle-400-emergency-expense-0 https://www.cato.org/blog/it-true-40-americans-cant-handle-4...
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      So which one of these is supporting your point and which one is not? I'm guessing the Cato Institute (formerly the Koch Research Foundation) is the one pushing the propaganda.
- thanhhaimai 7y ago
  This news heading is bad because they include 16 years old teenagers in the statistics. A majority of them are living with their parents, attending high school, and obviously having no income. I'd be more likely to agree with the report if it only includes people who are working, or 24 years old and up. > In 2013 the corresponding proportion was 39.5%. It's actually a great improvement. Going from 39.5% down to 28% in a mere 6 years (despite the bad statistics counting 16+ years old).
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    It's worth noting that in many cultures, 16 year olds have modest incomes and 24 year olds are expected to have at least a nominal employment history. Not that folks under 24 can necessarily afford to finance week-long holidays. But it's not entirely out of the question for young adults going in together on a beach house or something.
    - thanhhaimai 7y ago
      Just curious, which European countries have that?
    - zokier 7y ago
      The question was done per-household. I think the assumption is that there are not significant amount of households of <16 year olds.
- ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
  What's the domain for your web site? I would absolutely follow that when its available.
mahesh_rm 7y ago
I call BS. I am from Europe and I don't know anybody that cannot afford a week away from their home. And no, I don't live in a social bubble.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  when i was in school/college i could not afford this by myself. it was my parents who took me on trips or the students association subsidized it.
- alexbanks 7y ago
  It sounds like you almost definitely do.
  - hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
    Yeah, parent's argument is one of the most interesting I've seen in a while: "I don't know any poor people, and no, I don't live in a bubble, so poverty doesn't exist!"
- ebg13 7y ago
  > And no, I don't live in a social bubble. How would you know?
  - mahesh_rm 7y ago
    I can't be certain, but the sample spans different Countries and includes incomes from 0 to a lot, and age, from 0 to a lot.
    - refurb 7y ago
      How do the people you know who have incomes of 0 afford a week holiday?
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Trust funds?
gregoryexe 7y ago
FTA: "it is estimated that 28.3% of the EU population aged 16 or over could not afford a one-week annual holiday away from home in 2018" Surely including 16 year olds is skewing these numbers.
- refurb 7y ago
  That's true of most of the stats you see. For example looking at incomes. If you're a college kid making $5K over the summer, you're counted as being below the poverty level.
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    In America, only college students that live off campus and do not live with relatives are counted in the official poverty rate. I can't really see why they should be excluded, since they are living in poverty that is just often propped up by debt. But, the census bureau also calculates an additional poverty rate that excludes college students.
  - gregoryexe 7y ago
    lies, damn lies and...
  - mrweasel 7y ago
    Except if you're Danish, students are always excluded when counting who's poor or not. Technically students are poor (mostly), but it's viewed a temporary, and therefore they're not included.
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    It should probably only include people mid-twenties to mid-fifties or so, which should hopefully avoid most intentionally underemployed people. I care about breadwinners, not dependents.
- w-m 7y ago
  I can see that going either way, depending on how the question is posed. Fewer 16-year olds may be able to afford a vacation paid from their own income, compared to the population mean. But sponsored through parents/relatives, more 16-year olds than the population mean may be able to take a vacation, given your vacation at 16 years old is likely to be cheap, relative to an older person's vacation.
loblollyboy 7y ago
1. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a slurpee at 7-11 2. I had to stay in the UK (London) for weeks a few times (looking for work) and you can stay in a hostel for around 20 pounds a night, get a boris bike/bus or walk for like 5 a day and shitty food for less than 10 a day. Not exactly a 'fun vacation' but it's also one of the most expensive cities in the world. 3. What an arbitrary unit to measure wealth in. That's like asking how many pairs of jeans can you afford - well, are they from the thrift store or are they from the Armani Exchange?
- fapjacks 7y ago
  Well, I'd say anybody that can't find a fun vacation staying at a hostel in Europe and walking around the middle of pretty much any city must surely have no imagination and/or also hate life in general.
  - loblollyboy 7y ago
    I was hating life in general
    - fapjacks 7y ago
      Sorry :( When or if you figure this out, please do a Show HN.
  - kumoflow 7y ago
    Or they don't like that? I don't take 'vacations' per se. When I travel I like to go with a goal, let it be snowboard for a week or surf for the weekend in a nice spot, or just stay at a 5 star hotel drinking gin and tonic by the pool. Any kind of city 'vacation' for me is hell. Hate it. Did many before, still hate them. Go see the Mona Lisa or some natural lake? bleh. Boring. Rather be at home drinking gin and tonic in my sofa doing nothing all day. (to be fair, I lived in many countries, moved house and cities (and countries) pretty much every year. I've seen most of Europe has to offer (and didn't like it) and now nothing is better than just living near the sea. Spending some quality time with local friends and go surf or to the gym.
swongel 7y ago
What does afford mean in this context? Does it mean people self-report that they can't afford to go on holiday or does it mean they did not go last time or is it a function of disposable income? Without knowing the methodology this statistic isn't really that useful at all.
- zokier 7y ago
  > Does it mean people self-report that they can't afford to go on holiday Yes. See page 4 on this pdf https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous... (linked in https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-conditions/methodology https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-conditio...)
tempsy 7y ago
The American reward credit card "game" has made it really easy to travel at near zero cost. Since 2012 I've applied for, on average, about 5-10 new cards/year that come with extremely generous hotel, airline point, and travel cash rewards. I've taken international first/business class many times for free and stayed in very nice hotels that can average $500/night+. I seriously can't remember the last time I paid for a flight or hotel unless it was a very good deal. The US is different in a lot of ways, but the insane generosity of rewards credit cards over the past 8 years or so (post recession) is something to behold. I can't imagine it will last forever, but grateful I've caught it as a young adult.
- phil248 7y ago
  A household must first have the disposable income to utilize those types of cards in order to get the rewards, which makes your plan a complete non-starter for millions of Americans. Not to mention the required level of organization and financial savvy required to not let that type of credit card wheeling and dealing bite you in the ass.
  - pkaye 7y ago
    Honestly I think there are lot of people making enough money but just spend it all and not save for a rainy day. Just how many high end trucks and SUV you see people driving. Or expensive phones. Or eating out at expensive places.
  - Excel_Wizard 7y ago
    As another credit card churner, there are a couple of notes I can add: 1. Always pay your card in full on time. 2. Signup bonuses are the only aspect of churning that is worth it to most people. If you can manage to spend $3000 on a credit card in 3 months, you can get signup bonuses that are definitely worth your time. $4000 or $5000 levels in 3 months exist as well and are better. Typical signup bonuses can be worth $500 at the $3000 level, representing a 16% discount on everything you buy. 3. You can pay your federal taxes on a credit card for a 2% surcharge, and most state taxes as well for a similar charge. This is best done as estimated quarterly taxes. Minimize your withholding at work to maximize the value of this. You can pay your utility bills ahead of time for free as well. 4. If you don't go for airline miles, the other option is cash back rewards. 5. An easy way to keep track of the cards: every time you apply for a card, take screenshots of the date and bonus criteria from the signup website. Save this in a google drive folder with the date in YYYY-MM-DD as the start of the folder name. Now you can easily track cards by date, and cancel them as needed. Well now I hope I've made a few people a bit more savvy.
kartan 7y ago
> could not afford a one-week annual holiday away from home You get in Europe around one month of paid vacation time. What people can't afford is to travel. The title of the article misses that point, but, it's clear in the article itself. I'm surprised that Italy, 44%, is in such a bad position. Worse than Poland (35%).
- dep_b 7y ago
  Why? Poland is doing great!
  - Tade0 7y ago
    Yes and no. Much of the recent growth turned out to be already rich people getting richer. That being said quality of life overall is steadily improving. But it comes at a cost - we're some of the most overworked countries in the EU.
- analog31 7y ago
  This would be like being given a week of paid sick leave, but not being able to afford medical treatment. Oh wait. We have that in the US.
  - pitaj 7y ago
    I doubt many people in the US have benefits including a month of paid sick leave but don't have health insurance through work.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Since it's "people", not "employees", it may well be about travel and time off for some. For self-employeed sub-contractors (i.e. the "gig economy"), time off means time not paid.
- anticristi 7y ago
  I can't express how much the association between "not travelling" and poverty angers me. (Greta, help me here.) Some people choose to live in a stressless small town, work less, commute by bike, pick up their kids from daycare earlier and have a great time gardening at home. If your surrounding already feels like holidays, why the heck would you get your ass stuck in traffic or a narrow cylinder? Oh right, talking about the horror of being stuck in an airplane for 15 minutes makes a better story when returning to work.
wtdata 7y ago
When I was growing up, until I was about 16, my parents never, ever went on vacations (their only vacation in their life had been going on honeymoon, 1 week to a city 300Km away... and staying in a room in their relative's house). Now, after working all their life, they can afford some middle range vacations every year. This is what people that take responsibility for their life do, I guess, so I can't see any problem with 28% of people not being able to afford something that is basically a luxury.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  You mean temporary rental and transport is a luxury? I suppose so, by some interesting standard... But then, so is having a TV set, or a smartphone.
  - wtdata 7y ago
    No it's not interesting. You are not "entitled" to travel for holidays, even in a society with a good social security net that ensures the basic needs of its citizens are met.
    - timwaagh 7y ago
      we, as humans, define needs. air is most essential. water is second. food less so, but not having it will still kill. then there is housing, which isn't strictly necessary. healthcare, which will expand your expected lifespan. and this is where things start to differ: europe thinks healthcare is a need, in usa that's very much up for discussion. now in europe whether you have a need for travel is also up for discussion. here in nl there are foundations which sponsor the holidays of poor families, for instance.
lota-putty 7y ago
Even though the report seems speculative, a second study in the past/future with the same yard-stick paints a better picture. 2013: 39.5% 2018: 28.3% That's an impressive circulation of money.
makerofspoons 7y ago
I'm not sure not being able to afford a holiday away from home is such a bad thing- a staycation is much easier on the environment, not to mention the wallet. One does not need to travel away from one's home to relax and recharge, and requires no burning of fuel on trains or airplanes.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Vacation is probably mostly tired to short term rental costs, or price of a mobile home, or if you prefer camping, a camping place. If you limit yourself to 3+ star hotels it will be interesting, but not enlightening.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Even better if you did that voluntarily instead of involuntarily.
fencepost 7y ago
Or conversely, "Nearly 72% of Europeans can afford a week long away vacation, up from only 60% six years ago." In the US I suspect it's more like "[some percentage] of Americans can't afford to miss a week of work." I intentionally avoided the 40% stat tempting because of the assorted '$400 unexpected expense' stories because as Bloomberg and others note it's partially due to sloppy reading of statistics. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40...
edgarvaldes 7y ago
>away from home I guess finding a nice location away from home is a lot easier for europeans, the continent is filled with holiday-grade spots. I'm four hours apart from the next nice city in my country (talking about traveling by car).
teunispeters 7y ago
I don't know anyone who can afford a week annual holiday, I think... (Canada) ... or the people I know who can afford it probably are paid WAY above the "top 10%" income earners here.
- greenshackle2 7y ago
  That sounds very strange to me, I am Canadian too, I have several friends who take 1-2 week holidays who make way less than the median software engineer. Do all of your friends have kids and expensive mortgages, or what?
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    It could be the case if you’re not near a major airport and have to deal with a monopolist. I’m near Toronto and flights to France on a flag carrier can be cheaper than domestic. Things are different if you’re more secluded.
alehul 7y ago
While studies like this are valuable, it's important to always consider context around data; highly recommend this article that explains why we should be skeptical [1]. In this case, the data is given to Eurostat by EU member states, who presumably collect income data for the purpose of taxation. This can create an inherent issue, as nobody would overstate their income, but many people would understate their income. As a result, the percentage of Europeans who can't afford a 1 week annual holiday is likely lower. "By how much" is hard to tell, but it would be interesting to see if there's any anonymous income data collected for non-taxation purposes, from which we may get more accurate answers. [1] https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-never-raw https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-neve...
- zokier 7y ago
  The data is collected with questionnaires; I checked one of them and it had literally the question "Could you afford a week’s annual holiday away from home? Yes/No"
Proven 7y ago
Why is that a big deal? On average I never take such long holidays. People forget they aren't _entitled_ to anything except their life and liberty.
Animats 7y ago
Wait until "996" hits Europe.
ppeetteerr 7y ago
There is a lot of information missing in this post. For instance, what is a 1-week vacation? Something about those numbers tells me it's using the average cost of a vacation in Europe, rather than a cost proportional to the income of a person in that country. Would help a lot if there was more to this article.
- zokier 7y ago
  Data was collected using questionnaires, see page 4 of https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous...

96 points by infodocket 7y ago

Instead of waffling about 16 year olds, did anybody notice that the underlying data source was provided, and is a dashboard that can be modified? The URL is absurdly long, so I won't post it here but it is right there in the 2nd paragraph. If I change the "Household Type" filter to only show "Households with Dependent Children", the EU-28 rate is 31.2% in 2017, with the lowest in Norway at 7.3%. The 2018 numbers are estimates.

Ayesh 7y ago

A vague statement. For the expense of staying in a private room and eating out for 2 days in Amsterdam, you can spend a week in Croatia. This, and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are all meaningless. I find the Big Mac index to quite useful. I'm working on a new web site that we try to list a similar a metric (affordability of traveling to each country, factored by the traveler return rate, etc). Comparing EU with countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, France, etc vs Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, is orange vs apples.

cheeze 7y ago
> and the popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are all meaningless What? How is it meaningless at all? Because other countries are cheaper? Edit: To elaborate (since OP hasn't responded yet)... Implying that it means nothing to have no savings because other countries is IMO just wrong. Moving to another country (especially from the states) is difficult and incredibly expensive. It's the same argument for within the states. "Well why don't you just move to somewhere cheaper?" Because moving is super expensive and if you have no money, and no savings, how are you going to move? Just pack up all your shit and move to Mexico, right?
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Because Americans don't "save" their money in traditional savings accounts anymore. They shove it in investment accounts of varying types (less common) or retirement accounts (more common). When there's an emergency we tend to put it on credit and then use the time that buys to get money out of one of those other accounts and pay down the balance. Even many people who are living paycheck to paycheck are making some sort of 401k contribution which, while not a proper "savings" slush fund, can serve the same purpose of being able to cover an emergency expense if needed.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Americans definitely keep emergency cash in savings accounts or at the worst, money market accounts. I doubt "Americans" as a generalized entity even have investment accounts, outside of whatever tax advantaged account employer offers. By and large, "Americans" probably just don't have sufficient cash flow to create a decent emergency fund, and/or they lack the discipline. I would hope that higher earners and higher educated are trying to keep at least 6 months of highly liquid assets available, i.e. cash in savings accounts or money market funds.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  > if you have no money, and no savings, how are you going to move? If you have no money, and no savings, you probably have nearly no stuff too. That means, if you can get a days work at minimum wage, you can afford the cheapest bus trip to almost anywhere on the same continent. If you want less risk, and can get 3 days work at minimum wage, you can afford a return bus trip incase you can't find work at the destination. People don't move because they don't want to lose friends and family, not because they can't afford to.
  - cheeze 7y ago
    This is literally how tons of people end up going homeless. It's a lot harder than just "pack up the few things I have and dip out" People totally can't afford to move in many cases. But I've never been that poor to be fair. And I'm guessing you haven't either.
joelrunyon 7y ago
Have you seen how nomadlist.com does this?
notahacker 7y ago
Spending a week in a hotel in Croatia doesn't seem quite so cheap if your salary is paid in Croatia, which is why although the press release doesn't qualify "holiday" it does provide a country by country breakdown indicating that most Romanians and Croatians and very few Swedes feel priced out of an annual holiday. Agreed that your own index sounds like it would be useful data for other reasons. The more notable thing is just how sharp the downward trend in the number of people saying they were unable to afford a holiday has been. http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-056348_QID_-7C5F790E_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;HHTYP,L,Z,0;INCGRP,L,Z,1;UNIT,L,Z,2;INDICATORS,C,Z,3;&zSelection=DS-056348INCGRP,TOTAL;DS-056348INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;DS-056348HHTYP,TOTAL;DS-056348UNIT,PC;&rankName1=HHTYP_1_2_-1_2&rankName2=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=INCGRP_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName6=GEO_1_2_0_1&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=ROLLING&time_most_recent=false&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23 http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMA...
- joncrane 7y ago
  So is it fair to say "the percentage of Europeans who can't afford a 1 week annual holiday is steadily dropping and most recently sits at a low of 28%?"
  - candybar 7y ago
    The starting point for this series is the global financial crisis and the drop seems to be driven mostly by Eastern European countries whose economies have been rapidly growing over that time period.
lazyasciiart 7y ago
The Big Mac index is completely unrelated to savings in a country. You may not understand what these are telling people but that only makes them meaningless to you.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Oh but it is. BigMacParity index can tell you if you can afford the holiday in your country but not in another. I bet most people in EU can actually afford a semi decent holidays in the country they earn in. Obviously not all. This is essentially a decent measure of "can you take x time of a break, spend a bit and not go bankrupt".
bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
I too like the Big Mac index as a relative measure of cost of living the way that most people actually live their lives. I'd be very interested to see your new website once it is ready! Happy to provide some thoughts too if you're still hashing stuff out for it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  The other index should be called a Bankrupcy Index. Which would be a measure of a likelihood you'd go bankrupt or indebted forever, per country. Potentially extended with Credit Index - how likely is an average person to get a loan the size of local house, car or medical bill.
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> The popular news heading you see about Americans not having enough savings are...meaningless. How do you figure?
- adventured 7y ago
  Because it's entirely fraudulent. The headlines keep claiming that around 40% of Americans can't afford a surprise $400-$500 bill. The actual number is around 12% according to the Fed survey that the headlines are intentionally misleading about. It keeps getting pointed out that the claim is false, however the propaganda value is too sweet so it keeps getting abused. https://outline.com/rqAedK https://outline.com/rqAedK https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40... https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/report-economic-well-being-us-households.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/report-economic-... https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/middle-class-doing-okay-no-need-gloom-doom/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/middle-class-doing-ok... https://www.cato.org/blog/it-true-40-americans-cant-handle-400-emergency-expense-0 https://www.cato.org/blog/it-true-40-americans-cant-handle-4...
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    So which one of these is supporting your point and which one is not? I'm guessing the Cato Institute (formerly the Koch Research Foundation) is the one pushing the propaganda.
thanhhaimai 7y ago
This news heading is bad because they include 16 years old teenagers in the statistics. A majority of them are living with their parents, attending high school, and obviously having no income. I'd be more likely to agree with the report if it only includes people who are working, or 24 years old and up. > In 2013 the corresponding proportion was 39.5%. It's actually a great improvement. Going from 39.5% down to 28% in a mere 6 years (despite the bad statistics counting 16+ years old).
- humanrebar 7y ago
  It's worth noting that in many cultures, 16 year olds have modest incomes and 24 year olds are expected to have at least a nominal employment history. Not that folks under 24 can necessarily afford to finance week-long holidays. But it's not entirely out of the question for young adults going in together on a beach house or something.
  - thanhhaimai 7y ago
    Just curious, which European countries have that?
  - zokier 7y ago
    The question was done per-household. I think the assumption is that there are not significant amount of households of <16 year olds.
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
What's the domain for your web site? I would absolutely follow that when its available.

mahesh_rm 7y ago

I call BS. I am from Europe and I don't know anybody that cannot afford a week away from their home. And no, I don't live in a social bubble.

timwaagh 7y ago
when i was in school/college i could not afford this by myself. it was my parents who took me on trips or the students association subsidized it.
alexbanks 7y ago
It sounds like you almost definitely do.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  Yeah, parent's argument is one of the most interesting I've seen in a while: "I don't know any poor people, and no, I don't live in a bubble, so poverty doesn't exist!"
ebg13 7y ago
> And no, I don't live in a social bubble. How would you know?
- mahesh_rm 7y ago
  I can't be certain, but the sample spans different Countries and includes incomes from 0 to a lot, and age, from 0 to a lot.
  - refurb 7y ago
    How do the people you know who have incomes of 0 afford a week holiday?
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Trust funds?

gregoryexe 7y ago

FTA: "it is estimated that 28.3% of the EU population aged 16 or over could not afford a one-week annual holiday away from home in 2018" Surely including 16 year olds is skewing these numbers.

refurb 7y ago
That's true of most of the stats you see. For example looking at incomes. If you're a college kid making $5K over the summer, you're counted as being below the poverty level.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  In America, only college students that live off campus and do not live with relatives are counted in the official poverty rate. I can't really see why they should be excluded, since they are living in poverty that is just often propped up by debt. But, the census bureau also calculates an additional poverty rate that excludes college students.
- gregoryexe 7y ago
  lies, damn lies and...
- mrweasel 7y ago
  Except if you're Danish, students are always excluded when counting who's poor or not. Technically students are poor (mostly), but it's viewed a temporary, and therefore they're not included.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  It should probably only include people mid-twenties to mid-fifties or so, which should hopefully avoid most intentionally underemployed people. I care about breadwinners, not dependents.
w-m 7y ago
I can see that going either way, depending on how the question is posed. Fewer 16-year olds may be able to afford a vacation paid from their own income, compared to the population mean. But sponsored through parents/relatives, more 16-year olds than the population mean may be able to take a vacation, given your vacation at 16 years old is likely to be cheap, relative to an older person's vacation.

loblollyboy 7y ago

1. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a slurpee at 7-11 2. I had to stay in the UK (London) for weeks a few times (looking for work) and you can stay in a hostel for around 20 pounds a night, get a boris bike/bus or walk for like 5 a day and shitty food for less than 10 a day. Not exactly a 'fun vacation' but it's also one of the most expensive cities in the world. 3. What an arbitrary unit to measure wealth in. That's like asking how many pairs of jeans can you afford - well, are they from the thrift store or are they from the Armani Exchange?

fapjacks 7y ago
Well, I'd say anybody that can't find a fun vacation staying at a hostel in Europe and walking around the middle of pretty much any city must surely have no imagination and/or also hate life in general.
- loblollyboy 7y ago
  I was hating life in general
  - fapjacks 7y ago
    Sorry :( When or if you figure this out, please do a Show HN.
- kumoflow 7y ago
  Or they don't like that? I don't take 'vacations' per se. When I travel I like to go with a goal, let it be snowboard for a week or surf for the weekend in a nice spot, or just stay at a 5 star hotel drinking gin and tonic by the pool. Any kind of city 'vacation' for me is hell. Hate it. Did many before, still hate them. Go see the Mona Lisa or some natural lake? bleh. Boring. Rather be at home drinking gin and tonic in my sofa doing nothing all day. (to be fair, I lived in many countries, moved house and cities (and countries) pretty much every year. I've seen most of Europe has to offer (and didn't like it) and now nothing is better than just living near the sea. Spending some quality time with local friends and go surf or to the gym.

swongel 7y ago

What does afford mean in this context? Does it mean people self-report that they can't afford to go on holiday or does it mean they did not go last time or is it a function of disposable income? Without knowing the methodology this statistic isn't really that useful at all.

zokier 7y ago
> Does it mean people self-report that they can't afford to go on holiday Yes. See page 4 on this pdf https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous... (linked in https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-conditions/methodology https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/income-and-living-conditio...)

tempsy 7y ago

The American reward credit card "game" has made it really easy to travel at near zero cost. Since 2012 I've applied for, on average, about 5-10 new cards/year that come with extremely generous hotel, airline point, and travel cash rewards. I've taken international first/business class many times for free and stayed in very nice hotels that can average $500/night+. I seriously can't remember the last time I paid for a flight or hotel unless it was a very good deal. The US is different in a lot of ways, but the insane generosity of rewards credit cards over the past 8 years or so (post recession) is something to behold. I can't imagine it will last forever, but grateful I've caught it as a young adult.

phil248 7y ago
A household must first have the disposable income to utilize those types of cards in order to get the rewards, which makes your plan a complete non-starter for millions of Americans. Not to mention the required level of organization and financial savvy required to not let that type of credit card wheeling and dealing bite you in the ass.
- pkaye 7y ago
  Honestly I think there are lot of people making enough money but just spend it all and not save for a rainy day. Just how many high end trucks and SUV you see people driving. Or expensive phones. Or eating out at expensive places.
- Excel_Wizard 7y ago
  As another credit card churner, there are a couple of notes I can add: 1. Always pay your card in full on time. 2. Signup bonuses are the only aspect of churning that is worth it to most people. If you can manage to spend $3000 on a credit card in 3 months, you can get signup bonuses that are definitely worth your time. $4000 or $5000 levels in 3 months exist as well and are better. Typical signup bonuses can be worth $500 at the $3000 level, representing a 16% discount on everything you buy. 3. You can pay your federal taxes on a credit card for a 2% surcharge, and most state taxes as well for a similar charge. This is best done as estimated quarterly taxes. Minimize your withholding at work to maximize the value of this. You can pay your utility bills ahead of time for free as well. 4. If you don't go for airline miles, the other option is cash back rewards. 5. An easy way to keep track of the cards: every time you apply for a card, take screenshots of the date and bonus criteria from the signup website. Save this in a google drive folder with the date in YYYY-MM-DD as the start of the folder name. Now you can easily track cards by date, and cancel them as needed. Well now I hope I've made a few people a bit more savvy.

kartan 7y ago

> could not afford a one-week annual holiday away from home You get in Europe around one month of paid vacation time. What people can't afford is to travel. The title of the article misses that point, but, it's clear in the article itself. I'm surprised that Italy, 44%, is in such a bad position. Worse than Poland (35%).

dep_b 7y ago
Why? Poland is doing great!
- Tade0 7y ago
  Yes and no. Much of the recent growth turned out to be already rich people getting richer. That being said quality of life overall is steadily improving. But it comes at a cost - we're some of the most overworked countries in the EU.
analog31 7y ago
This would be like being given a week of paid sick leave, but not being able to afford medical treatment. Oh wait. We have that in the US.
- pitaj 7y ago
  I doubt many people in the US have benefits including a month of paid sick leave but don't have health insurance through work.
luckylion 7y ago
Since it's "people", not "employees", it may well be about travel and time off for some. For self-employeed sub-contractors (i.e. the "gig economy"), time off means time not paid.
anticristi 7y ago
I can't express how much the association between "not travelling" and poverty angers me. (Greta, help me here.) Some people choose to live in a stressless small town, work less, commute by bike, pick up their kids from daycare earlier and have a great time gardening at home. If your surrounding already feels like holidays, why the heck would you get your ass stuck in traffic or a narrow cylinder? Oh right, talking about the horror of being stuck in an airplane for 15 minutes makes a better story when returning to work.

wtdata 7y ago

When I was growing up, until I was about 16, my parents never, ever went on vacations (their only vacation in their life had been going on honeymoon, 1 week to a city 300Km away... and staying in a room in their relative's house). Now, after working all their life, they can afford some middle range vacations every year. This is what people that take responsibility for their life do, I guess, so I can't see any problem with 28% of people not being able to afford something that is basically a luxury.

AstralStorm 7y ago
You mean temporary rental and transport is a luxury? I suppose so, by some interesting standard... But then, so is having a TV set, or a smartphone.
- wtdata 7y ago
  No it's not interesting. You are not "entitled" to travel for holidays, even in a society with a good social security net that ensures the basic needs of its citizens are met.
  - timwaagh 7y ago
    we, as humans, define needs. air is most essential. water is second. food less so, but not having it will still kill. then there is housing, which isn't strictly necessary. healthcare, which will expand your expected lifespan. and this is where things start to differ: europe thinks healthcare is a need, in usa that's very much up for discussion. now in europe whether you have a need for travel is also up for discussion. here in nl there are foundations which sponsor the holidays of poor families, for instance.

lota-putty 7y ago

Even though the report seems speculative, a second study in the past/future with the same yard-stick paints a better picture. 2013: 39.5% 2018: 28.3% That's an impressive circulation of money.

makerofspoons 7y ago

I'm not sure not being able to afford a holiday away from home is such a bad thing- a staycation is much easier on the environment, not to mention the wallet. One does not need to travel away from one's home to relax and recharge, and requires no burning of fuel on trains or airplanes.

AstralStorm 7y ago
Vacation is probably mostly tired to short term rental costs, or price of a mobile home, or if you prefer camping, a camping place. If you limit yourself to 3+ star hotels it will be interesting, but not enlightening.
Scoundreller 7y ago
Even better if you did that voluntarily instead of involuntarily.

fencepost 7y ago

Or conversely, "Nearly 72% of Europeans can afford a week long away vacation, up from only 60% six years ago." In the US I suspect it's more like "[some percentage] of Americans can't afford to miss a week of work." I intentionally avoided the 40% stat tempting because of the assorted '$400 unexpected expense' stories because as Bloomberg and others note it's partially due to sloppy reading of statistics. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40...

edgarvaldes 7y ago

>away from home I guess finding a nice location away from home is a lot easier for europeans, the continent is filled with holiday-grade spots. I'm four hours apart from the next nice city in my country (talking about traveling by car).

teunispeters 7y ago

I don't know anyone who can afford a week annual holiday, I think... (Canada) ... or the people I know who can afford it probably are paid WAY above the "top 10%" income earners here.

greenshackle2 7y ago
That sounds very strange to me, I am Canadian too, I have several friends who take 1-2 week holidays who make way less than the median software engineer. Do all of your friends have kids and expensive mortgages, or what?
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  It could be the case if you’re not near a major airport and have to deal with a monopolist. I’m near Toronto and flights to France on a flag carrier can be cheaper than domestic. Things are different if you’re more secluded.

alehul 7y ago

While studies like this are valuable, it's important to always consider context around data; highly recommend this article that explains why we should be skeptical [1]. In this case, the data is given to Eurostat by EU member states, who presumably collect income data for the purpose of taxation. This can create an inherent issue, as nobody would overstate their income, but many people would understate their income. As a result, the percentage of Europeans who can't afford a 1 week annual holiday is likely lower. "By how much" is hard to tell, but it would be interesting to see if there's any anonymous income data collected for non-taxation purposes, from which we may get more accurate answers. [1] https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-never-raw https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-data-is-neve...

zokier 7y ago
The data is collected with questionnaires; I checked one of them and it had literally the question "Could you afford a week’s annual holiday away from home? Yes/No"

Proven 7y ago

Why is that a big deal? On average I never take such long holidays. People forget they aren't _entitled_ to anything except their life and liberty.

Animats 7y ago

Wait until "996" hits Europe.

ppeetteerr 7y ago

There is a lot of information missing in this post. For instance, what is a 1-week vacation? Something about those numbers tells me it's using the average cost of a vacation in Europe, rather than a cost proportional to the income of a person in that country. Would help a lot if there was more to this article.

zokier 7y ago
Data was collected using questionnaires, see page 4 of https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Household+data+-+Material+deprivation.pdf/5f81bcd6-8b37-498b-ab06-b53b43d2bb87 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/1012329/8658951/Hous...