7 ms·

Definitely some selection bias. Many wealthy people in the US are immigrants. Also, many wealthy people probably choose to immigrate to the US to start their bu

Definitely some selection bias. Many wealthy people in the US are immigrants. Also, many wealthy people probably choose to immigrate to the US to start their business because of lower barriers to entry. EDIT: Also, if this [1] is correct, 13.7% of people in the US are immigrants. So how many people are immigrants OR first-gen? And since ANY of the founders can be immigrants/first-gen, more founders means higher likelihood that it fits this criteria. [1]https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested...

pjc50 7y ago
Not all these people were wealthy before they arrived; Andy Grove of Intel was a Hungarian refugee, for example.
- sidlls 7y ago
  Similarly, not everyone is less than one sigma away from the mean in a normal distribution.
- weberc2 7y ago
  Is this meant to be a rebuttal? It's entirely compatible with the parent comment...
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  I have a hypothesis related to this. I believe that surviving being a child refugee in America is something that really brings out the grit in a person. Seeing the things your family goes through to provide a normal life for you in a strange and new place, overcoming ethnic biases, language barriers, and life on government assistance really brings out the attitudes of drive and perseverance toward reaching one's goals. I'd be curious to see how the likeliness of refugees to reach higher income brackets over their lives compares to native-born Americans.
  - hartator 7y ago
    Andy Grove came in the US at 20. He was never on government assistance nor saw his family having to adapt to a new place.
    - testvox 7y ago
      He may have acquired his grit through other means, in his words: > By the time I was twenty, I had lived through a Hungarian Fascist dictatorship, German military occupation, the Nazis' "Final Solution," the siege of Budapest by the Soviet Red Army, a period of chaotic democracy in the years immediately after the war, a variety of repressive Communist regimes, and a popular uprising that was put down at gunpoint... [where] many young people were killed; countless others were interned. Some two hundred thousand Hungarians escaped to the West. I was one of them.
      - cronix 7y ago
        I'd be really curious about his viewpoints on the current US political landscape, considering he experienced real, actual fascism and not the label everyone throws around willy-nilly trying to tar and feather each other. Personally, whenever I hear the terms racist or fascist thrown around, racism and fascism never actually enter my mind, or at least extremely rarely. I just think "Oh, another person who disagrees with someone else," because that's how the words are used in modern day politics. The words have lost their actual meaning to me due to their incorrect usage, and over saturation of their usage. You can only cry wolf so much.
        danharaj 7y ago
        If the only time you can recognize fascists is when they already have power, then you are completely helpless at preventing fascists from attaining that power. There are always fascists. Some people who "throw around" that word have correctly identified them, perhaps others are mistaken. Surely it is up to you to figure who's figured it out if you would like to prevent fascists from seizing power.
        7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  I don't see someone claiming they all were. A selection bias does not mean the issue causing the bias happens to every single individual in the group.
- admax88q 7y ago
  "My anecdote trumps your data."
IloveHN84 7y ago
I would not call H1B a "low entry barrier"..
- BeetleB 7y ago
  He was not referring to H1B. If you have sufficient funds and want to start a business, there are alternative routes to the Green Card.
- hammock 7y ago
  H1B is not for entrepreneurs (until recently, ~2011). Not to say the other visa types are easy, e.g. E2 and EB5
stunt 7y ago
It isn’t only about founders either. How many immigrants have worked or invested on these companies to become what they are today and that’s one of the biggest advantages that drives US tech faster than any other country. Those skilled workers are often educated and grown up outside the US, which means government didn’t spend any subsidies to have them ready to work. That’s why H1B is a gold mine.
nostrademons 7y ago
"Many wealthy people in the US are immigrants. Also, many wealthy people probably choose to immigrate to the US to start their business because of lower barriers to entry." The data shows the opposite effect: immigrants usually come to this country with lower levels of wealth and income, but catch up within 20 years because of higher saving rates and educational attainment: https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/comparing-income-education-and-job-data-for-immigrants-vs-those-born-in-us https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/s... https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n1/68n1p31.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n1/68n1p31.html If there's a selection bias, it's likely in other characteristics. Immigration selects for risk-taking, for example, because moving to another country is inherently a risk, and it also selects for people willing to work hard without a safety net. Both of these are characteristics shared with successful entrepreneurs.
deogeo 7y ago
There is selection bias (and other issues) not only in this study, but in which stories are promoted as well. E.g. this story presenting immigration positively gets to stay on the front page for some time, while a (admittedly anecdotal) story of Indian immigrants showing racist in-group preference at Intel (https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/19/korean-american-software-engineer-claims-discrimination-by-intel-managers-of-indian-descent/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/19/korean-american-softw...) is flagged and killed.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Yup. By this criteria, if I (an adult-aged Canadian) decided to take my startup to Silicon Valley, it would be an 'immigrant' founded startup. My situation would also be completely unlike the scenarios that are dominating the immigration debate in the US at the moment.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  Seems the same to me. What’s the difference in your mind?
krageon 7y ago
Fundamentally practically every US-citizen is an immigrant or of immigrant descent. They came in, slaughtered the natives and are now claiming nobody else can come in. The endemic racism and xenophobia looks to the outsider mostly like a complex, affirming that they definitely do belong while trying as hard as possible not to consider that other people belong just as much as they do.

pjc50 7y ago

Not all these people were wealthy before they arrived; Andy Grove of Intel was a Hungarian refugee, for example.

sidlls 7y ago
Similarly, not everyone is less than one sigma away from the mean in a normal distribution.
weberc2 7y ago
Is this meant to be a rebuttal? It's entirely compatible with the parent comment...
ilikehurdles 7y ago
I have a hypothesis related to this. I believe that surviving being a child refugee in America is something that really brings out the grit in a person. Seeing the things your family goes through to provide a normal life for you in a strange and new place, overcoming ethnic biases, language barriers, and life on government assistance really brings out the attitudes of drive and perseverance toward reaching one's goals. I'd be curious to see how the likeliness of refugees to reach higher income brackets over their lives compares to native-born Americans.
- hartator 7y ago
  Andy Grove came in the US at 20. He was never on government assistance nor saw his family having to adapt to a new place.
  - testvox 7y ago
    He may have acquired his grit through other means, in his words: > By the time I was twenty, I had lived through a Hungarian Fascist dictatorship, German military occupation, the Nazis' "Final Solution," the siege of Budapest by the Soviet Red Army, a period of chaotic democracy in the years immediately after the war, a variety of repressive Communist regimes, and a popular uprising that was put down at gunpoint... [where] many young people were killed; countless others were interned. Some two hundred thousand Hungarians escaped to the West. I was one of them.
    - cronix 7y ago
      I'd be really curious about his viewpoints on the current US political landscape, considering he experienced real, actual fascism and not the label everyone throws around willy-nilly trying to tar and feather each other. Personally, whenever I hear the terms racist or fascist thrown around, racism and fascism never actually enter my mind, or at least extremely rarely. I just think "Oh, another person who disagrees with someone else," because that's how the words are used in modern day politics. The words have lost their actual meaning to me due to their incorrect usage, and over saturation of their usage. You can only cry wolf so much.
      - danharaj 7y ago
        If the only time you can recognize fascists is when they already have power, then you are completely helpless at preventing fascists from attaining that power. There are always fascists. Some people who "throw around" that word have correctly identified them, perhaps others are mistaken. Surely it is up to you to figure who's figured it out if you would like to prevent fascists from seizing power.
      - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
SkyBelow 7y ago
I don't see someone claiming they all were. A selection bias does not mean the issue causing the bias happens to every single individual in the group.
admax88q 7y ago
"My anecdote trumps your data."

IloveHN84 7y ago

I would not call H1B a "low entry barrier"..

BeetleB 7y ago
He was not referring to H1B. If you have sufficient funds and want to start a business, there are alternative routes to the Green Card.
hammock 7y ago
H1B is not for entrepreneurs (until recently, ~2011). Not to say the other visa types are easy, e.g. E2 and EB5

stunt 7y ago

It isn’t only about founders either. How many immigrants have worked or invested on these companies to become what they are today and that’s one of the biggest advantages that drives US tech faster than any other country. Those skilled workers are often educated and grown up outside the US, which means government didn’t spend any subsidies to have them ready to work. That’s why H1B is a gold mine.

nostrademons 7y ago

"Many wealthy people in the US are immigrants. Also, many wealthy people probably choose to immigrate to the US to start their business because of lower barriers to entry." The data shows the opposite effect: immigrants usually come to this country with lower levels of wealth and income, but catch up within 20 years because of higher saving rates and educational attainment: https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/comparing-income-education-and-job-data-for-immigrants-vs-those-born-in-us https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/s... https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n1/68n1p31.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n1/68n1p31.html If there's a selection bias, it's likely in other characteristics. Immigration selects for risk-taking, for example, because moving to another country is inherently a risk, and it also selects for people willing to work hard without a safety net. Both of these are characteristics shared with successful entrepreneurs.

deogeo 7y ago

There is selection bias (and other issues) not only in this study, but in which stories are promoted as well. E.g. this story presenting immigration positively gets to stay on the front page for some time, while a (admittedly anecdotal) story of Indian immigrants showing racist in-group preference at Intel (https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/19/korean-american-software-engineer-claims-discrimination-by-intel-managers-of-indian-descent/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/19/korean-american-softw...) is flagged and killed.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Yup. By this criteria, if I (an adult-aged Canadian) decided to take my startup to Silicon Valley, it would be an 'immigrant' founded startup. My situation would also be completely unlike the scenarios that are dominating the immigration debate in the US at the moment.

erikpukinskis 7y ago
Seems the same to me. What’s the difference in your mind?

krageon 7y ago

Fundamentally practically every US-citizen is an immigrant or of immigrant descent. They came in, slaughtered the natives and are now claiming nobody else can come in. The endemic racism and xenophobia looks to the outsider mostly like a complex, affirming that they definitely do belong while trying as hard as possible not to consider that other people belong just as much as they do.