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Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists
- not_a_cop75 7y agoMasked men -> This is the new face of the communist party.
- soared 7y agoNone of them wore masks.
- brokenmachine 7y agoThen why is the title of this post, "Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists"?
- bitL 7y agoTriads made a deal with PRC? Couldn't be better news for HKers! :-/
- tjpnz 7y agoI would've expected something far slicker from the PRC. When push comes to shove I guess.
- odiroot 7y agoIt's funny, decades ago China (CCP government) tired to get rid of Triads from Guangdong (especially prostitution and drug trade). They were probably happy Triads focused mostly on HK and Macau (and Taiwan + overseas?). Now they "need" the Triads. Also it seems this movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) is actually becoming reality.
- ryanlol 7y agoLots of footage with clear faces, shouldn’t be very difficult to put names next to those. Does anyone know of any co-ordinated efforts to do so?
- nailer 7y agohttps://reddit.com/r/hongkong https://reddit.com/r/hongkong has a lot of discussion and footage of these guys coordinating with the police, including them getting into vehicles with mainland license plates.
- bitskits 7y agoIs that really the right course of action, given the protests are a push back against China asserting control and surveillance over HK's citizens?
- BubRoss 7y agoThe protests are over a law allowing China to extradite people without any process. Also government mass surveillance and identifying people who were recorded in public by a citizen commiting violence aren't the same thing. I wish I didn't have to explain this.
- underthebus 7y ago> The protests are over a law allowing China to extradite people without any process. That is not true that there would not have been any process. There would have been a full legal process like any extradition: I.e. extradition would have been requested based on a legal case, this would have been examined by a HK court with the 'accused' able to defend, then that HK court would have made a decision. [That's the actual bill]
- literallycancer 7y agoWhat do you suggest? Should they just bend over and take it?
- laumars 7y ago
- AFascistWorld 7y agoThis follows protesters' siege of The Liaison Office of the Central People's Government in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. PS: I'm just stating a fact not endorsing anyone here. The "siege" of CCP office is a very bad move. They are hurting the face of the mainland, provided excuses and received the ruthless response this political machine was designed to do.
- conjectures 7y agoIt also follows the birth of Jesus and the battle of Gallipoli. Your point being?
- AFascistWorld 7y agoThe siege happened yesterday, and Chinese mouthpieces and websites are calling it a blatant provocation on sovereignty by thugs.
- literallycancer 7y agoWhy does it matter what the Chinese mouthpieces say? They will always find a reason when they want to fuck someone up.
- AFascistWorld 7y agoThat looks like a high horse? The consequences will not be borne by you but by the HK public, and when that hurt their daily lives you better wish they won't change their mind. Also, you don't care what they say but there are 1.4 billion people that do, and lies will become truth.
- y2kenny 7y agoNo, you did not state fact. The protest at the Liaison Office and the Yuen Long terrorist attack happened at the same time. The Yuen Long attack is also now shown (via various news outlet) to be planned well ahead (as early as 7/20 if not earlier.)
- riffraff 7y agoI am very curious, but worried, of the situation in HK. Concretely, it seems HKers can protest as much as they want, but when push comes to shove, the PRC will just end up crushing them and the parts of democracy they still have. I can't imagine how they may get any other outcome. Even if I wish they could just gain independence, it seems unlikely, and it's not like any foreign power would go to war to protect HK.
- nailer 7y agoBack in... IIRC 2012 mainland regime tried to impose the PRC school curriculum, which includes a bunch of false things (Mao defeating the Japanese instead of Chiang Kai Shek) and obviously removes references to others (the Tiananmen massacre). The teachers won and the PRC curriculum was never implemented.
- rubinelli 7y agoThe problem with erosion of rights is that they have to fight and win every time. The PRC just has to win once.
- trevyn 7y ago>I can't imagine how they may get any other outcome. There is one person who has made himself a big single point of failure for China.
- lonelappde 7y agoWho?
- Reimersholme 7y agoI assume he's referring to emperor Xi. I don't think it's correct to consider him a single point of failure though.
- Merrill 7y agoThe population of PRC is approximately 200 times the population of Hong Kong.
- sgjohnson 7y agoSeems like they could use the 2nd amendment there.
- MadSudaca 7y agoThe progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to them was meant to protect them. The 2nd amendment is vital, don't let anyone make you think otherwise.
- orf 7y agoWhat about the many, many other functioning democracies with incredibly strict gun control?
- meddlepal 7y agoIt is all well and good until they stop functioning. Guns empower people to not sit down and just take it when governments consistentenly abuse their power over a long enough period of time.
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- orf 7y agoSaying “it’s all fine and dandy until the democracy falls down” is a pretty circular argument to the fact that America stands uniquely in the democratic free world in its liberal control of guns, amoung peers who have lasted several times longer than America's total existance. In fact it’s a completely nonsense response, and one might point out that America is also fairly unique in its seemingly ill-functioning and over reaching government. Nobody reached for their guns after any of the post-9/11 constitution slashing, nor over any of the hundreds of documented abuses of power, corruption or citizens-United bribery that happen all of the time. But sure, if cradling your firearms at night imagining a time when you gloriously rise up in unison against some big-brother style figurehead (while your other freedoms are eroded bit by bit) is an effective coping mechanism I guess that’s a good thing for the controlling oligarchy. I can see why the promote it so heavily.
- nabla9 7y agoBack to low-tech solutions like paid mobs to control the situation. People in HK use Chinese apps and Chinese intelligence probably has comprehensive mass surveillance system in place, but it could not predict recent events. Chinese and HK leaders were caught by surprise.
- my_username_is_ 7y agoPeople in HK typically don't use Chinese apps to communicate. WhatsApp and Telegram seem to be the most popular right now, and both use end-to-end encryption. Suggesting communication over WeChat to your average Hong Konger is laughable.
- spiderdev 7y agoA co-worker of mine just returned from visiting mainland China. She said everyone she spoke to, did not know about the protests in Hong Kong. They had no idea that something was happening there.
- underthebus 7y agoThis is not necessarily a bad thing for the protesters in HK. Considering the humiliation that the colonisation of HK had been for 100+ years and the resulting nationalistic tendency of the people, if CCTV (Chinese state TV) had shown the pictures of armed protesters storming the HK parliament and some of them flying the Union Jack then the Chinese government would have been forced to fall on the protesters like a ton of bricks.
- wtdata 7y agoHumiliation? People in HK today, are actually looking at those as the days they had personal freedoms, due process and representation, something that doesn't happen under the rule of mainland China. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1139799/hong-kong-protests-china-britain-extradition-bill-violence-extradition-law https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1139799/hong-kong-prote...
- sho 7y agoClaiming not to know was a way to avoid talking about it. Anyone in China who wants to know, knows. Of course the people in Shenzhen, less than 30km away, are aware of what's happening in HK. They just have no desire whatsoever to get into a political discussion with foreigners. Don't underestimate the "them and us" mentality in China. It's very pervasive. Your co-worker was assuredly on the "them" side of the equation.
- unicornfinder 7y agoThis. Not to mention in my experience most Chinese actually support the government.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- croo 7y agoThere are a few good summary comments about the situation on /r/worldnews like: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/cg1sh2/chaos_and_bloodshed_in_hong_kong_district_as/euefgdk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/cg1sh2/chaos_and... What I personally find astounding that the police were pulled out right before the fight, the 999 operators hanged up for the callers and nearby police stations were closed during the event.
- huffmsa 7y agoWhat's surprising about that? The HK government is necessarily compliant with the Mainland. Isn't that one of the root issues here? It'd be unexpected if they didn't stand down while PLA grunts, I mean "triad gangsters", put a beating on the protestors.
- yorwba 7y agoThe Hong Kong police is made out of people. Unless they have an incredibly accurate filtering process for new hires, at least some police officers will support the protests, and even those who don't probably have some pride that'd make standing aside for criminal gangs hard to swallow. Of course the leadership could've arranged for the police force to retreat without informing them about the purpose. In that case, the rank-and-file officers are probably quite unhappy about that decision.
- huffmsa 7y agoThe latter seems like the likely answer. If your unit is pulling back, then you have to decide on an individual level if you're going to follow the herd or go AWOL. Pretty easy groupthink situation.
- wybiral 7y agoThat's exactly how leadership manipulated soldiers during the Tiananmen Square massacre [0]. They weren't given clear orders and were basically only told where to go and when. With that much force and tension anything can set it off. But... As a counter argument, that could be exactly why law enforcement were pulled away this time. If they started cracking down on violent anti-protestors the peaceful protestors could have gotten caught in the mix and it could have escalated rapidly. I'm not defending Honk Kong leadership, but hopefully they're aware of the risk of concentrating armed forces amidst this tension. If shots are fired it turns into a chain reaction. [0] https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/02/317996805/for-one-soldier-at-tiananmen-a-day-never-forgotten https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/02/317996805/...
- benj111 7y agoIs there a symbolism with the white? Or was it an arbitrary colour? I believe Brown was chosen for the Nazi SA uniforms because they were cheap.
- trevyn 7y agoI assume it was for maximum contrast with the black that many of the protesters wear, to help distinguish friend from foe.
- chewz 7y ago> I believe Brown was chosen for the Nazi SA uniforms because they were cheap. No, it was taken from Harvard's University colors, I believe. > Hanfstaengl composed both Brownshirt and Hitler Youth marches patterned after his Harvard football songs and, he later claimed, devised the chant "Sieg Heil" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Hanfstaengl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Hanfstaengl
- benj111 7y ago"Brown-colored shirts were chosen as the SA uniform because a large number of them were cheaply available after World War I" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung Harvard university is Crimson?
- keanzu 7y agoExcellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and sticks, which in turn will give the police extra justification when they uncover "weapons". It will be used by the Chinese domestic media as justification to crack down hard.
- leroy_masochist 7y agoOne would hope that the protesters will continue to use the ingenuity they've shown over the last month (intensely coordinated logistics, hand signs, etc) and refuse to take the bait while finding a clever, asymmetrical response to the intimidation tactics.
- onetimemanytime 7y agoNo ingenuity is a match for police. And China has shown that they mean business when things risk getting out of (their) hand
- bidifferential 7y ago> No ingenuity is a match for police. You’re going to have a real hard time getting the typical American to buy into this perspective.
- bgorman 7y agoIt is no coincidence that private gun-ownership is effectively illegal in China, while in the US it is a secured right in the constitution.
- brokenmachine 7y ago
- chvid 7y agoDoes these protest still have broad support? It seems obvious that the HK administration is simply drawing out time and hoping the daily troubles the demonstrators are creating in time will kill their cause.
- salawat 7y agoBroad support by whom? If you're including population not under the sphere of influence of the Chinese Communist Party, I'd say most likely yes. If not, of course there isn't broad support in the sense that Hong Kong is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the Mainland. I hate to say it, but I'm expecting that an inevitable Tiananmen 2.0 is in the works; and I have seen nothing to convince me that pushed to the wall, the Chinese Communist party won't write off an entire city to restore "Peace"; excepting the continued existence of Taiwan. That though, in no small manner being a diplomatic stalemate with the rest of the world however.
- chvid 7y agoBroad support by the people of Hong Kong. I think the parallel are the occupy protests in HK around 2014. In the beginning they had broad support but after about half a year that public support was gone and the police could clear remaining "occupiers". As an outsider the issues of extradition seems like a symptom of something deeper: Hong Kong's role as a part of China. Perhaps frustration over economic conditions: Obscene rent to wage ratios. Not the same growth as in nearby mainland.
- verttii 7y agoActually Taiwan's de facto independence has probably more to do with them having a relatively large defense force ready to inflict heavy casualties to an invader. Hong Kong has no such asset.
- modi15 7y agoSeems to me this is Tiananmen part 2 unfolding before our eyes. And doesnt look like anyone will come to Hongkongs help. Hoping India will step up and do something. Seems unlikely though.
- verttii 7y agoNo foreign power would ever dare to intervene with HK. Every country is simply too horny about Chinese money nowadays
- modi15 7y agoI know. But India can. And India should. There is no one else.
- huffmsa 7y agoLast time we got hot and bothered about Chinese money, the British crashed the entire nation via illicit drug sales. No reason something like that won't happen again.
- verttii 7y agoNot sure what you're implying here - that the British will roll out illegal drugs to the Chinese market again? Look at how everyone is treating Taiwan. That should tell you enough about how nobody will be willing to compromise anything for the sake of Hong Kong.
- huffmsa 7y agoThe implication is that the west has bled China dry without the cooperation of the Chinese government before and there's no reason it won't happen again. The West doesn't necessarily need to play softball with China to get its money.
- echaozh 7y agoYeah, great idea to rob the Chinese again and put the blame on themselves.
- shuzheng407 7y agoyou need to know the whole chain of events to understand what happened at Yuen Long last night. also you need to know the unique identity of Yuen Long in order to comprehend the situation. Yuen Long is a village of people from several big family names, they are all relatives in a way. have their own system and rules and really hate outsiders telling them what to do. in history, they fought with British, fought with Japanese, with government, HK government and Police then realize the best way is to allowing local'daddies'to run local affairs with minimum intervene,except serious crimes like rape, murders, drugs etc. Protesters dont get this, last week, they entered Yuen Long enforcing 'democracy', got told off and kicked out. Local warned, they dont want protesters in their area, if they come back ,YL locals will teach them a lesson about not to invade into others' community. but protesters took it as a challenge to their righteousness and claim they will 'liberal' Yuen Long. Locals got super irritated and with gang history of this area, they are not afraid of confronting with anyone,violently or not. so, they did it as they have always done when outsiders disrespect them. local police did not stand by protesters. but take what happened during last few weeks, like an officer got a finger bitten off but then was criticized 'excessive violence'etc. of course police have their own emotions, they are human beings after all, not robots. anyway, this is a tragic situation which is inevitable to happen , not after so many weeks of tolerance of violence and breaking law. the protesters once shouted at police asking them to disappear. and police disappeared. you call for lawlessness, then you have to live with lawlessness. you dont want to get punished by beating others, then you have to live with being beaten without anyone punished.
- Renaud 7y agoSo basically it's ok for the Police to leave an area they were pre-warned will become violent because that district is controlled by thugs and criminals who can basically do what they want? I think you have a distorted view of what the role of Police is in a society.
- basementcat 7y agoAuthorities are simply leveraging "thugs and criminals" as a force multiplier.
- 0898 7y agoCould one make a case in favour of China's one party system by likening it to Apple's tightly integrated ecosystem? I mean, people argue that technology works better when one system controls the hardware, the software and the ecosystem around it. Could the same principle apply to human society? Which is an order of magnitude more complex than a piece of technology. Again, I don't know if this argument has been made before – or if it's even one I'd want to make. But I'm just curious if this is something people say?
- huffmsa 7y agoYes. It's easier to run an entirely unified society in a centralized fashion than it is to run a free-for-all. Your monoculture must necessarily be authoritarian to enforce the cultural and ideological policies. It's also extremely fragile. Cut off the head and everything turns to anarchy. Which is what has happened over and over throughout China's history. Versus somewhere on the polar opposite end like Switzerland where the national government is basically non-existent and could disappear tomorrow and there wouldn't be much disruption.
- abtinf 7y agoA hundred million dead in the 20th century wasn’t enough for you?
- 0898 7y agoIf you read my post instead of downvoting, I'm not calling for the end of Western democracy. I'm just curious whether people who are in favour of the One Party system use arguments or metaphors like these.
- FabHK 7y agoYes, this argument has been made. China apologists frequently cite the higher efficiency of the one party system compared to democracies hampered by due process. During the Roman Republic, in time of crisis a dictator could be installed (for a 6 month period) to "sort things out". So, the tradeoff between accountability and efficacy has been around for a while.
- Proven 7y agoThe communist thugs are working hard on making Chinese dream come true for Hong Kong...
- hmx48 7y agoAt what point do we stop calling it the Hong Kong Protests and instead call it the Hong Kong Riots?
- FabHK 7y agoWell, they are distinct - there are the peaceful HK protests by huge proportions of the population, and then there are some riots, with indications that they're staged by the triads close to pro-Beijing factions.
- jammygit 7y agoUpdate: no arrests made of attackers https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/22/hong-kong-police-made-no-arrests-mob-assaulted-commuters-protesters-journalists-yuen-long/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/22/hong-kong-police-made-...
- ferest 7y ago6 arrests https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/23/5-arrests-hong-kong-mob-attacks-districts-become-ghost-towns-amid-fears-violence/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/23/5-arrests-hong-kong-mo...
- bllguo 7y agothis is bizarre to me. I don't really see how this move makes sense for the CCP. Maybe I just wanted to think that things have changed since 1989..
- ferest 7y agoThis is just too obvious and they tried to get attention, which isn't really like what China gov would do. The HK gov's announcement and action so far are de-escalating the situation, it just not making any sense to support/allow such thing from happening. The aggressive protesters are only ones i could see benefits from it