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'My son spent £3,160 in one game'
- acroback 7y agoSo people don't know how to supervise their minor kids and are now blaming games for it. Why is this even news?
- freedomben 7y agoHow many kids do you have?
- jsgo 7y agoIt's probably a bit easier for me as I'll actually play the games with my kids, but the ones my daughter are into are more in this vein. Roblox specifically with Robux or whatever. She has her own Apple account, child one, and when she attempts to make an in-app purchase, it must go through me. And I am aware before the prompt comes up because we've got an understanding that if I see a request for it and we didn't discuss it prior, it's going to be rejected.
- filoleg 7y agoAnother one of those oversensationalized outrage articles that can be boiled down to "I cannot put even a minimal effort in keeping an eye on my children, so I will blame someone else for it and make it their responsibility." There is literally a setting on iOS for that specific specific scenario, which allows to prevent in-app purchases[0]. And it is very easy and intuitive to set up too, so it isn't like it is hidden behind millions of menus and dark patterns. 0. https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204396 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204396
- sjg007 7y agoIn-app purchases should be off by default.
- vorpalhex 7y agoThey are unless you add a card, and sign in, and enable the ability to pay without using your password.
- shakyshakyshaky 7y agomost children are using their parents' apple IDs.
- filoleg 7y agoSo you are admitting that the default users of those phones are adults. In which case, it makes sense that the defaults are set for adults. If an adult is handing their phone (with a credit card enabled on it) to their child, it is expected that they should think of things that can go wrong and disable in-app purchases. If a parent cannot even attempt to keep an eye on what their child is doing on their phone OR click a simple menu setting that disables in-app purchases, I would personally worry about their child way beyond what they can do on their phone.
- willk 7y agoThese games were not just on Apple's platform. I think these types of games are predatory. What is wrong with just selling a whole game? It is hard to find any game these days that comes out complete. Blizzard did it with Star Craft 2 and for that reason, I refused to buy it.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- hombre_fatal 7y agoThere are plenty of games you can buy on the iOS store. What's wrong with buying a whole game?
- falcolas 7y agoEven "whole" games (like the latest $60 FIFA release) have unlimited microtransactions. And it's not limited to iOS, or Android. It's on most internet connected platforms.
- filoleg 7y agoI agree with your point about non-apple platforms. I cannot enumerate all of them, but it would be silly of me to expect all of them to handle that scenario gracefully, and I believe they should be required to. However, Starcraft 2 is complete and been this way since the inception. They added microtransactions years after the full release, and they all boil down to cosmetics and other completely optional and non-necessary things, like skins and banners, i.e. cosmetics. Something for hardcore fans to buy in order to support their game, but absolutely non-essential for the actual full experience. And I am saying that as someone who hasn't spent a single dime on Starcraft 2, aside from buying the full game on release (+the expansions that came out years later) and putting hundreds of hours into it.
- Kiro 7y agoThey mean the fact that the game came out in instalments, which is a ridiculous complaint and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
- ajross 7y ago> "I cannot put even a minimal effort in keeping an eye on my children, so I will blame someone else for it and make it their responsibility." For centuries, it's been trivially possible for parents to manage their children's access to funds. Nineteenth century homesteaders could send their kids off to market with appropriate funds to buy what they needed. Now all of a sudden this doesn't work and kids by default have access to near infinite (at their scales) lines of credit because of internet purchasing. Why is this burden suddenly on the parents? Why can't app vendors (and in particular their middlemen who manage the purchases) make even a minimal effort at not having this system be broken by default?
- thaumasiotes 7y ago> Nineteenth century homesteaders could send their kids off to market with appropriate funds to buy what they needed. Now all of a sudden this doesn't work and kids by default have access to near infinite (at their scales) lines of credit because of internet purchasing. Huh? The old model is working just as well as ever. Why would you give your kid your credit card? Have them make their internet purchases with a gift card, the non-insane way.
- d1zzy 7y agoAlmost all major credit cards have a system to generate virtual card numbers with dollar limits on them. Generate a virtual card number with some limit, give to the kid or configure it on their device. Every time you need to increase the limit you have to login on a site that only the parent has access to.
- filoleg 7y agoIs toggling a single simple menu setting before handing off your portable computer you use for managing your life to your child considered a legitimate burden? >Why can't app vendors (and in particular their middlemen who manage the purchases) make even a minimal effort at not having this system be broken by default? Apple put an effort into making it all locked behind a simple menu setting, which to me looks about as functional and non-broken as it can get. I don't know what more can one expect from a company, aside from being able to read the mind of whoever is using the device at the moment and automatically adjust permissions based on that.
- notus 7y ago> boiled down to "I cannot put even a minimal effort in keeping an eye on my children, so I will blame someone else for it and make it their responsibility." When you add multiple devices/platforms/app stores it becomes a lot more difficult. Sure it is a relatively seamless experience on one platform, but not all of them. Additionally, parents who didn't grow up with cellphones don't even think about this stuff until it happens. It isn't common sense for them.
- la_barba 7y agoIts written in a click-bait style (what news story isn't these days?) but the only take-home here for parents is that smartphone==credit card. The other issue is that usually for physical credit cards, its easy for a parent to keep it off limits. But if you're signed into services that can auto-charge you, things are a bit more tricky. Even if you had a separate account for your child, and only use a CC to authorize on a per-transaction basis, services can auto-save your CC info, and bury this fact inside some 20 page ToS.
- bobthepanda 7y agoIt's also that even if you do hide your credit card, your child only needs to take possession of it once to have it auto-saved somewhere.
- la_barba 7y agoThat is true, I guess I was thinking more of a "stole $10 from the kitchen drawer to buy candy" kind of child, not a "impersonated dad, and wired entire life savings to russia" kind of child.
- bobthepanda 7y agoRifling through a wallet for cash and doing it for the credit card in the next pocket are basically the same action to a child who doesn't know better. And it's not like it's a good or reasonable idea for parents to come home and lock up their wallet in a safe.
- falcolas 7y agoDefaults matter. We say this all over the place when designing interfaces. None of these solutions being proposed are the "default". The "default" is to make it as simple and straightforward as possible to give the platforms and developers money. Worse, all it takes is one mistake on one device to open up a whole can of financial woe when it comes to a child on a device.
- darkpuma 7y agoIt's immoral to exploit children under any circumstances, even (especially!) when the child has neglectful or careless parents.
- BLKNSLVR 7y agoI've been in IT Admin for years, and one of my kids managed to subscribe to two things in one day, one that cost $10 per month and one that was $78 per year, despite having exactly these kinds of controls already set on the device. Thankfully I receive a notification email for activity on the account, so I was able to go through the non-obvious method of unsubscribing before the "three-day free trial" expired when the charges would have started. The device was setup to require a password for in-app purchases. They even need a password to install new, free apps. I've since locked down the devices even harder, having looked up various guides on all the various settings that need to be changed from their very open defaults. I've also removed credit card details from the shared family account - which can't be done from the device itself, only via the online account management tool. I still don't know how those subscriptions got through, but they did. Thanks for the reminder though, I'm going to check through those settings again, just to make sure they're still tight, and haven't been re-opened by a software update or other "insecure by default" situation. I can't imagine how far outside 'normal' this level of IT device maintenance is for regular folk.
- uponcoffee 7y agoAndroid is worse still, there is still no good way to implement parental controls that cant be circumvented by a few minutes on google.
- neilalexander 7y ago> And it is very easy and intuitive to set up too, so it isn't like it is hidden behind millions of menus and dark patterns. Disagree on the basis that neither "Screen Time" nor "Content & Privacy Restrictions" are terms that imply having anything to do with spending money. They could have a top-level settings item called "Parental Controls" and they choose not to.
- clarkey252 7y agoI agree that this is preventable but you can't assume that everyone knows these things, especially when there is an article like this that doesn't contain any help or advice! Of all people the BBC should be using this opportunity to help people.
- AlexandrB 7y agoGames with randomized spending of real money should be classified as “gambling” and treated appropriately. Then it’s safe to blame the parents. At the moment, games are transitioning from an entertainment product suitable for anyone to a gambling product only for adults. It’s hard to keep track of which game series have made this transition or not, so I don’t blame the parents too much.
- darkpuma 7y agoIt's astonishing that the developers of games like this can sleep at night. Do they lie to themselves and pretend all the kids spending thousands of dollars are the children of Saudi royals or something? They must know that they're exploiting people who can't afford it. Edit: these developers know damn well if their target demo is children, and they know damn well that the phenomenon of children running up huge debts without the informed consent of their parents is all too common. They know what they're doing; they can't plead ignorance. At best they are self-deluded, but it's more likely they are morally corrupt. Blinded by their love for money, totally indifferent to the suffering their business model causes. It's absolutely revolting, and so is anybody defending it by implicitly asserting that it's okay for developers to exploit children if their parents happen to be careless or neglectful. "The parents are to blame for allowing it" does not absolve the developers who knowingly profit from it. Should it be legal for me to sell cigarettes to a child if their parents were foolish enough to give the child a credit card? Of course not, fuck off with that shit.
- o_p 7y agoOne would assume that children spending was authorized by their parents.
- eitland 7y agoSomewhere before we cross >£3000 I guess most developers can understand this is not authorized by an adult mind.
- megous 7y agoWho spends the price of an iPhone (per month, for months on end) on some stupid game? One (game dev) would have to be very much full of it, to assume this is legit. And, that they never responded to the parents tells it all.
- Konnstann 7y agoPeople who can buy an iPhone a month for months on end and not care. One of my friends is a whale, he just doesn't really care about the expense.
- throwaway13337 7y agoMobile free to play games now make up the majority of money made in video games today. It's strange then that most of these games aren't that interesting. Who are the players of these that make up the new class of gamers? It would seem that the payers are the exploitable - those able to be swindled with casino mechanisms. As an ex- free-to-play game developer and one who believes regulation often does more harm to consumers than good, I'd like to see something done. I'm just at a loss for what would work.
- LanceH 7y agoHow about the app stores classifying them? I've tried looking for games I could buy outright. Try finding a game without ads or in app purchases. It is extremely difficult to search by those criteria.
- codebje 7y agoI've been trying to find such games for my kids (4 & 6) - there really are no search options to help. Indiscriminate third party advertising and freemium games are going to cause significant long-term harm to mobile gaming, and possibly also to society as a whole. There's still some games out there that use IAP in small doses (<10 total) to sell reasonably sized chunks of content, but they don't make the money that freemium games do. (My own device operates on the same rules as my kids - no third party advertising, no freemium IAP stuff. There's really nothing to miss in that space anyway…)
- lozenge 7y agoTry searching the internet instead of those storefronts, you'll get more than enough listicles.
- ajscanlan 7y agoNot sure about iOS but on the Play Store you can look in the "Premium" section in Games. Not all are IAP free, but it seems most of them are.
- maze-le 7y agoI almost fell into such a trap before. I knew about the mechanics, but I was willing to give the developers the benefit of a doubt. And so I started playing, and after a while started to acquire shortcuts with money. Once, twice and at the verge of the third time, I realized what I was doing and stopped immediately. The money you use is never much, but that is just part of the design to make you throw out even more -- a few cents here a few cents there and suddenly a sizable amount builds up. Now I am 33 and have a bit of experience with addiction. That helps identifying these traps -- Dopamine kicks are always the same, chemically induced or by stimulating your brain with rewarding gameplay. But to be sure, would I have been born 20 years later, I would definitely be hooked on that particular game and still throwing money out for -- not much but a faster reward-cycle.
- vorpalhex 7y agoBut how do you tell the difference between an adult and a kid with their parents password and bank card? If you trust your kid with your bank account and get burned.. isn't that kind of on you?
- thaumasiotes 7y agoWell... There is no way to distinguish between an adult and a kid with their parents' credentials. If the precedent gets set that you can buy in-game currency and then reverse the charge on the grounds that that was your friend's kid, not you, what will happen? All I see is that it becomes tougher to offer games that are monetized in this style, which seems like a positive effect. So assigning responsibility to the parent doesn't seem that important to me.
- dahdum 7y ago> then reverse the charge on the grounds that that was your friend's kid, not you, what will happen I think they’d start asking for the police report in that case, or telling you to call your CC company to report the unauthorized transactions.
- Faark 7y agoYou usually have your account banned when a charge is reversed to undo the "progress grained". This makes it less attractive for real players to abuse. Adult who realize what they are doing and want to stop cold turkey doing it? Fine with me as well.
- ska 7y agoThe problem I think is the all-or-nothing aspect. So you trade off convenience for safety and it mostly works out but the worst case is worse than many people think it could be. Why, for example, can you as a parent not set an (even global) spending limit on in app purchases? Why can't you disable in-app purchases per app? I think the answer to those sorts of questions is pretty easy to come up with. Lot's of things could technically be done that would make it easier for parents to manage this stuff, but it's not going to happen without a push from somewhere because every barrier you put in place will reduce revenue somewhere.
- rasz 7y ago>learning difficulties and the approximate cognitive ability of a seven-year-old child. so obviously I gave him full control over "his entire savings"
- sdwa 7y agoParents can't be expected to get everything right all of the time. It's not unreasonable to ask that technology companies don't exploit vulnerable people, and in particular, children. Blaming the parents in this case is something I just don't understand. The companies could just like, not exploit children for profit. I've managed to go my whole life without exploiting children, it's actually very very not difficult and I have no sympathy for these companies.
- la_barba 7y agoGiving a smartphone to an underage person is also like giving them a credit card, a phone that can be used to call any tolled number, a way to access inappropriate content, etc, etc.
- falcolas 7y agoAny gaming console today has the exact same issues, just hidden by it being a "gaming console". FIFA, specifically, is not a mobile phone game. It's a console game with gambling-alike microtransactions.
- jsgo 7y agoMadden, a cornerstone of gaming for a lot of people really, has it too with Ultimate Team or whatever.
- djhworld 7y agoThe amount of crap in the app stores that encourage this sort of behaviour is truly, truly shocking. The gaming community often lambast companies like EA etc for loot boxes ("surprise mechanics"), which is definitely a problem that needs to go away, but from this article I suspect there's a lot of examples of absolute bottom of the barrel shovelware on the app stores that's raking it in from accidental purchases from children or vulnerable adults. I remember Apple saying they were putting together some sort of curated program for high quality games, maybe with a subscription model. Which is cool and everything but creating a two-tier system doesn't solve the underlying problem. Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system where the cardholder need to explicitly approve it through their phone. Or maybe a daily spending cap or something like that
- madeofpalk 7y ago> Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system It does - at least on Apple devices, IAP need to be authenticated with a physical interaction, and Touch/Face ID.
- djhworld 7y agoI was thinking more as in, sending the approval to a separate device, but obviously that wouldn't work if you just have one device that you let your kids play on.
- ska 7y agoI think Apple already (can) do that - but as you note it doesn't help with a shared device.
- Wowfunhappy 7y agoIsn't that still single factor? It's touch OR password/info, not AND.
- BonesJustice 7y agoThe benefits are largely obscured by in-game currencies, which exist primarily to obfuscate the true cost of inane in-app purchases; maximize the odds of having a useless residual balance (thus encouraging more spending); and reduce barriers to spending. Games don’t have to prompt for confirmation to spend proprietary fake money. This removes an opportunity to reconsider a purchase, and dramatically increases the chance of accidental spending. And without a dollar value that players can easily reason about, it’s easy to not realize how much you’re spending. “35 crystal whatzits? Um, okay, that doesn’t sound like much.” Never mind the fact that you actually have to buy at least 50 whatzits to have 35, because the next lowest option is to buy 25. I don’t have any data on this, but I’d be willing to bet that revenues from in-app purchases went through the roof when someone had the bright idea to switch to an in-game currency (and, eventually, multiple currencies).
- notus 7y agoThis is disgusting. Yes parents should be aware of these things but shifting the burden of locking down every system a child uses when this could be handled at the app store or financial processor level is ridiculous. It seems that some of these people are claiming that the game is not distinguishing well between fake and real currency. There are definitely games I've played where this is ambiguous as well. IMO there needs to be a more rigorous opt-in process for different types of apps. You can opt in for automatic purchases for utility type apps but not for game purchases for example and it needs to be off by default. There also needs to be ways for people to get their money back in certain situations. If a child has a cognitive disability of some kind then holding them accountable seems kind of exploitative. Parents can prove these things with documentation and if proven the money should be refunded.
- madeofpalk 7y agoBut still though, they gave the kid their credit card. If you don't want your kid to spend £3000 then don't give it to them? Not defending any particular app's behaviour. Without any first hand knowledge, I certainly believe that there are scummy games out there using dubious methods to get people to rack up IAP.
- commandlinefan 7y ago> they gave the kid their credit card These systems are set up so you really don’t have much choice, though. My son will come to me and say, “Dad, I have some money from Grandma, can I use it to buy willywhacker 2 for my iPod?” I’ll say, “sure” - then he’ll hand me the $5 he got from Grandma and I’ll type my credit card number into wherever the game expects it to be and try to check the “don’t remember this card for future use” check box (if it’s there and if the game actually honors it). My kids are really good about asking before they make purchases, but a lot of these apps are designed to trick you - that’s how they make profits.
- JD557 7y agoThis seems like a nice use case for virtual credit cards with a very strict limit (just create one with $5).
- tathougies 7y agoThe parents should think of the 3000 pounds as the cost of a course in child care.
- Havoc 7y agoKids shouldn't be armed with cards. Prepaid cards maaaybbbee.
- bancars 7y agoI’m really confused why “maybe make it impossible for this to happen” is so controversial. People fuck up sometimes. Kids are tough. And as peddlers of technology the onus is on us to make people’s lives better, not worse, which includes having the tiniest bit of compassion and maybe using some of those VC millions to prevent these kinds of things. Do y’all truly believe that everyone that this happens to was being careless? Is there no room for an honest mistake?
- herpderperator 7y agoI understand this isn't addressing the issue at hand, but having notifications sent to your phone whenever a purchase/swipe is made on a credit card is incredibly useful. It might be moot if the device receiving the notifications is being used by the person making the transaction, but I would recommend everyone to set up such a thing if their bank supports it. And, all banks should do this eventually! I get instant purchase notifications on my bank cards; it's really good to know exactly when they get used.
- HenryBemis 7y agoMost banks in this world don't provide this service. This is why my "spending" debit card is Monzo because its all kicks ass!!! The second I spend £££, the Monzo app bleeps and shows me the amount and the store (with address, company logo etc.) I was shocked that big banks in the UK like Barclays, NatWest et al, don't bother alerting their clients immediately.
- cwkoss 7y agoEvery game should have to display a "Maximum cost of online play" on the cover with ESRB rating and on the app store listing. If not limited just show ($10,000+). Would give parents a rough idea of how exploitive a game's online currency system is.
- tick_tock_tick 7y agoApp store games don't get rated by the ESRB
- Balgair 7y agoA glaring oversight in and of itself. If you're going to have interoperability between mobile and console games, the ratings agencies should have jurisdiction across the spectrum.
- ianferrel 7y agoThe ESRB is a voluntary organization. They have jurisdiction over whoever volunteers to let them rate their games.
- BlueGh0st 7y agoThe ESRB is already a cancer, why would we want it to spread?
- yoz-y 7y agoWhy? ESRB is what protected the gaming industry from a heavy hand of regulation. Seems more like a win.
- ryandrake 7y agoWouldn’t they all say “$10,000+” in that case? Are there really any games out there that stop you before you make a purchase saying “You already spent $100 this month. Please don’t give us any more of your money!”
- subsaharancoder 7y agoNo child wakes up one morning and decides to do this, it's often a steady progression enabled by parents who have relegated their responsibilities to TV screens, video games and mobile phones. Casting blame on tech that they've let loose on their kids absolves the parents of any responsibility.
- Circuits 7y agoI agree. The burden of responsibility for how and when a credit/debit card is used is on the owner. Unless of course you are the victim of some kind of fraud. "I gave my child my wallet and he spent all the money in it!!!" duh?
- sdwa 7y agoThese games are literally designed to exploit vulnerable people, and they use every trick in the book to do it. Criticising parents for not being able to defend against the fruits of millions of hours of labour spent on marketing and r&d which exists solely to exploit is honestly shameful, as if parenting isn't difficult enough already. Do you really think gaming companies exploiting children by introducing them to gambling is the fault of the parents? What next, is the tobacco industry blameless too? Just a tiny bit of empathy on your part for people rather than capitalists would go a long way I think.
- ahje 7y agoI agree with what you are saying, I really do, but it's still a really bad idea to give a child access to an store account connected to a credit or debit card. This problem needs to be solved in both ends.
- sdwa 7y agoIndeed, but it's only such a truly awful idea exactly because there are a lot of predators out there with no morals looking to prey on children. If a kid went into a physical shop with a credit card and tried to buy something, he wouldn't get anywhere.
- hyayz 7y ago>he managed to download Clash of Clans through a Google Play account, enter his own children's bank card details and buy lots of in-game items. Wait, why the fuck does a 12 year old child have a bank card?
- Thiez 7y agoWhy not? How else are they going to learn how to handle money? Or do you believe children should receive every adult responsibility all at once on their 18th birthday? Sadly these app publishers take advantage while these kids are still learning. The boy probably would never have spent £700 on the game if that had to be spent upfront. "Microtransactions" in games can't die soon enough.
- ihuman 7y ago> Why not? How else are they going to learn how to handle money? Cash? You don't need a debit/credit card to pay for things. You can buy iTunes/Google gift cards with cash if you want funds for your account.
- jaclaz 7y agoI don't know elsewhere, but here (Italy) it is common enough (and highly recommended) that online "rechargeable" bank cards are used. I don't see why one cannot give one to a kid with - say - 100 Euro initial credit on it, and let him/her do whatever he/she wants with the money. Then manage it the same way as it was once with the (usually here weekly) "allowance", crediting on it something weekly or monthly. I'll confess that my weekly allowance as a kid was 5.000 lire, i.e. roughly 2.5 Euro, which should say something on both my age and the effects of inflation ...
- lilactown 7y agoOne thing that I haven't used on my Switch (no kids), but I understand as a great feature, is that you can add funds available for games as a one-time purchase that can be used across the system. The actual purchase of system currency can be controlled while allowing the dependent to make their own choices on how to spend it.
- vipbababd 7y ago>learning difficulties and the approximate cognitive ability of a seven-year-old child. so obviously I gave him full control over "his entire savings"
- vipbababd 7y agoI understand this isn't addressing the issue at hand, but having notifications sent to your phone whenever a purchase/swipe is made on a credit card is incredibly useful. It might be moot if the device receiving the notifications is being used by the person making the transaction, but I would recommend everyone to set up such a thing if their bank supports it. And, all banks should do this eventually! I get instant purchase notifications on my bank cards; it's really good to know exactly when they get used.
- mythz 7y agoThis is why we have IAP's disabled on all devices and avoid any pay-to-win games. Unfortunately an overwhelming number of game developers are focused around gamifying IAP's for max addiction to extract max revenue where I've basically lost trust in trying out any new games that aren't personally recommended. I'm looking forward to Apple Arcade as we'll finally have a curated collection of trusted Games we can access with a single subscription so game developers are compensated and they can just focus on creating good content/game play instead of tweaking their games with Dark UX patterns to maximize IAP's.
- gringoDan 7y agoThis seems to be the equivalent of buying digital scratch-off lottery tickets. So you could make the argument that in-app purchases should be regulated in the same way that gambling is. However, you could also argue that it's the equivalent of buying a pack of Pokémon cards, baseball cards, etc. - which are not regulated. My intuition tells me that given the addictiveness and how this disproportionately affects the most vulnerable members of society, the practice should be regulated much more tightly. Also, given that these are digital goods, a more relaxed "return" policy shouldn't harm any company that is offering in-app purchases in a good-faith / non-exploitative manner.
- jsgo 7y agoI stopped buying FIFA/Madden/etc. games. The team building mode seems like it'd be fun, but oh damn, you only have x games you can use that specific player so you have to buy contracts which costs points and good luck trying to stack your team with various players by making good trades vs the spend funds approach. Give me a game where I can play it and GM it in such a way that if I make Joe Blow look like a star, I can trade him for an actual star and repeat the process until I have the dream team I want or whatever without spending money, I'll buy the game again. The last Madden I bought was the one with Gronkowski in the opening animation and was just disgusted with the "fun" mode being weighted heavily against you just playing and having fun.
- kevin_b_er 7y agoYou are permanently limited on how many times you can make a team with a player unless you pay more?? As someone who's never touched the sports games who grew up on old non-internet consoles that you can't replay the same thing is utter madness. You can't use the same player over in another attempt??? Do you run out of players?
- jsgo 7y agoFrom my personal experience, I played for like 2-3 weeks. You get a starter set with mostly mediocre cards (card based UI) and then one decent and then a great card (defensive player for me and a few other people I know; don't know if it can be someone offensive). From there, you can do little skill things for points which can be turned in for either more cards or contracts. These are mostly skill drill type things and not really "I'm playing a football game as my team vs the Bears" or something though there are some. Don't know if the events refresh so you can unlock more points as I only played a few weeks. So there's the no pay options of keeping things going as far as I could tell. One week I got a Greg Olsen card as part of some event promo thing. Worked very well as a tight end in Ultimate Team. A week or two later it was around Super Bowl or something and received Dak Prescott. So solid passing tandem. Then, after a few games, contracts are coming up. At first it was Dak and it cost a lot to keep him. Then, I had burned so many on him that I didn't have many left for whoever it was that was my DE (it was a moderately good stats guy. Not great, but serviceable). So I lose him and the second string guy takes his spot. After a few more games, another boot falls and more attrition. Lost Greg Olsen because I was a few contracts short and just quit because it was basically a team of second string players by then. Dunno, I'm all for a GM/player hybrid mode, but I'd rather feel like I'm gaining something when losing something on the GM end.
- goldcd 7y agoSo: 1) You allowed your son with the cognitive ability of a 7 year old, access to £3 grand.. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that was wise. I'm unable to even imagine "the correct" way you were wanting your son to use that money. Shorting Symantec? 2) Your 16 year old stole £2k of your money (and then your daughter bailed you out?). Looking for a bright side, it wasn't opiates... and your student daughter already appears to have overcome genetics/environment to get her shit together. 3) "We are technically savvy" (I already know you're not.. but pray continue) - Oh your 12 year old spent the money you gave him access to from his own bank account.. Well I think lessons have been learnt on all sides here - and if you don't think it's his fault, chuck him another £700 and see what happens. I have some lovely magical-beans I'll cut you in on, for his email address. 4) "My 11-year-old daughter has spent over £100 of my money in a day downloading apps that are the same." Well that's a curious statement. Most stores would say "you already own this".. she was creating new accounts for the thrill of a fresh download? I can't help but feel despite your aforementioned tech-savvy swagger - you have no f'in idea what happened even as you spoke to the reporter. Still I'm completely reassured that you've now given her a PS3 where "No fraud, no online grooming and no bullying"... Three horrible things, but does most definitely have an online store, which is the single problematic thing you mentioned. Oh I'm losing the will to live now.. and feeling increasingly misanthropic, so I'll stop.
- sdwa 7y agoLet me help you with your misanthropy: try targeting it at companies which exist solely to exploit children rather than the parents of said children.
- Andrew_nenakhov 7y agoAfter reading the title I thought it would be about Europa Universalis 4 and all their outrageously priced DLCs.
- kevin_b_er 7y agoThe gambling industry got into the gaming industry. You are looking at the result: Children are gambling.
- contravariant 7y agoAlthough gambling consists of convincing the gambler they will get real money in return, while these games seem to be trying to convince the gamer that they aren't spending real money. It's definitely similar but the difference could be important.
- kirykl 7y agoiOS should let you put value limits on in-app purchases. Even just a setting or prompt when first opening an app: "Dont allow in app purchases for this app to exceed $XXX (per day, per week, lifetime)"
- droithomme 7y agoYou have to be 21 to play the slots in Vegas. It's recognized as not a good idea to allow casinos and gaming rooms to extend access to addictive gambling games to children. Gambling is also banned for everyone in many states, not just children, as the damage to society of allowing enterprises to prey on addictive personality types and create misery is recognized. These laws need to be applied to online games as well.
- _nalply 7y agoIn civil law countries it is outright illegal for purchases of children going through if parents disapprove. For example art. 19 Swiss Civil Code (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19070042/index.html#a19 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19070042/...) says: «[...] may only enter into obligations [...] with the consent of their legal representative.» In other words, children can only «buy» things if parents don't object. However I can imagine that it is sometimes simply impossible to get the monay back. National law as empty words.
- en4bz 7y agoIf you haven't seen it all ready just take a look at the infamous "Let's Go Whaling!" talk here [1]. They're not even hiding the fact the these are the type of people Free2Play/Pay2Win games prey on anymore. [1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4
- Balgair 7y agoOther posters point out something that I found to be unexpected: The ESRB does not rate mobile games. Now, yes, the ESRB ratings are not anything to stake your life on, but they do give parents and organizations something to go off. Does the ESRB have massive problems? Yes, of course. Do mobile games need to have some sort of rating system? I'd think that most people would say something would be really nice Perhaps the ESRB, or an expanded board of a similar nature, should expand their mission to not only rate the content in a mobile game but also should give card-holders a better idea of what the gaming market's financial risks are?
- j4kp07 7y agoESRB is not a legal regulation and has zero authority. It is merely a privately held company that holds the copyrights to their system of rating video games.
- bartimus 7y agoI'm mostly surprised how there's still people not aware of in-app purchases in 2019.
- _ph_ 7y agoI am shocked, that it is legal to offer simple games which allow in-app purchases of this size. If you compare these games to any AAA title which goes for like $70 or less, this isn't ethical in the first place. With the money spent by a child, there should be no way to enforce the bill. Here in Germany, children cannot do business transactions which exceed the range of typical pocket money, so we are talking a few dollars here. Any business larger than that would require the parents to agree to be valid. Invalid transactions can be reversed. And when pointing out towards parents negligence: keep in mind that there are no multiple accounts on iOS devices and there are good reasons to spend money to buy apps on a device. Of course, with enough understanding of the technology, parents would set it up so that the password is required for every purchase. The question is, is this a reasonable request for non-tech parents? So if Apple wants to be in a position of morale, as they pitch themselves, they should put reasonable limits to in-app purchases, especially towards these games.
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoI find more fun in the older games. Unlike the IAP crap and all the ways of gamification, older games could be modded and had humongous modding communities. Other than Minecraft, not so much these days. So I stick with older. Less to "gamify my wallet"
- _hardwaregeek 7y agoI strongly believe that video games today are comparable to alcohol in the 60's. Y'know, how people in the 60's would say "Oh Johnny just likes his liquor" when Johnny's drinking at 9AM, drunk at 10 and hungover by 2. Right now we have people who are facing serious problems with video games, and yet we brush them off casually and callously. I can't count the number of stories on reddit about playing video games all day and all night, at the expense of one's social life, academic success and even career. That's not normal behavior; it's behavior indicative of addiction and dependency. And I'm referring to adults. For kids, who lack executive functions, this behavior can and is even worse, even more debilitating. Now, regulating video games like alcohol may not be the best idea. We could end up in a similar state of binge drinking, except with binge playing. But perhaps some sort of preventative measure can be taken so that kids do not get sucked into these games that are, make no mistake, maliciously designed to addict and to steal money from the vulnerable. Even alcohol manufacturers don't dose their products with nicotine.
- bsaul 7y agoThat’s an interesting comparison. Following the analogy, we should have the equivalent of « alcool concentration » for addictiveness. Some games are pretty mild relative to in app purchases pushing or addiction mechanics , while others are simply awfull.
- verisimilitudes 7y ago>I strongly believe that video games today are comparable to alcohol in the 60's. Get off it. There's a strong difference between playing a game like ''Super Mario Odyssey'' and the trash Google allows because it makes money on trickery and theft. >Right now we have people who are facing serious problems with video games, and yet we brush them off casually and callously. China locks up people who have ''Internet addictions''; they might find ''lies'' about political protests in China, as an example. >I can't count the number of stories on reddit about playing video games all day and all night, at the expense of one's social life, academic success and even career. Clearly one's career is said person's most important aspect. They could be working or participating in office politics instead of having fun. >That's not normal behavior; it's behavior indicative of addiction and dependency. And I'm referring to adults. Yet, nowhere in your message do you wonder why people would rather play games than do other things. You seem to think games are at fault, rather than the sorry state of society. >Now, regulating video games like alcohol may not be the best idea. It's important that every medium be heavily regulated, to prevent the wrong ideas from getting through.
- ysavir 7y agoIs there any way to link the games/play account/icloud accounts to a wallet with limited funds? I feel like the real problem here is how these games link up to a payment method that isn't actually intended to be used for the game. Unlinking them from each other should go a long way to resolve these "my child spent a lot of money because I gave them access to all my money" problems.
- frostyj 7y agoI miss the old good time when you only need to purchase the game once and get everything. No micro transaction. No DLCs.
- elamje 7y agoGames can be an escape, just as book reading can be an escape. The problem lies in that the book ends, but the game goes on for months, years, or decades. Many people bring up the positivity of quitting, or minimizing, social media. The same thing could be extended to gaming. I have quit social media, only using twitter to follow my interests, and quit gaming back in high school. Both of which took many, many weeks away from my life. I am amazed at how much time I have outside of work compared to my peers that are hooked on social media or gaming! All that being said, neither are evil, and both can be fun, but for many people they silently rob you of precious time, and peace. It helps to view things not on a micro, hours per day, scale, but on a lifetime scale. 2 hours gaming daily, 5 times a week, from age 10-30 is well over a YEAR of your life! Now consider the binge gaming phases of life and it certainly takes a lot shorter of a time to hit 1 year.
- iamleppert 7y agoWe need all the help we can get here in SF with our rent! Every dollar we can get from the app helps! I just deployed a feature today that automatically charges the user's credit card when their virtual currency balance runs low and I do not feel the least bit guilty in doing it, either. When the choice is either be out of business or homeless, what would you do?
- microcolonel 7y agoI know this comment will soon turn gray, but I'll say it again as I have before: Don't hand your credit card to a child, or to anyone else. This is your first, and most effective, line of defense.
- makecheck 7y agoOne very simple set of rules could be: 1. your app may not accept in-app purchases more than once per month, and 2. the in-app purchase cost must not exceed 10% of the original purchase price. And then 3., there should be a lifetime maximum on purchases, i.e. you can finally “pay enough”. Instead of these or really any other sane constraints, we’ve somehow made it worse by now preferring subscriptions!!! And even more offensive, these recurring charges are allowed to be very high. And as if that weren’t rewarding enough for scammers, it can be far more frequent than one would normally expect (e.g. weekly instead of monthly). Like, REALLY!?!?
- em-bee 7y agopoint 2 won't work. the whole reason for in-game purchases is that you can spend more than the initial cost of the game which is often free initially. (what's 10% of free?) i'd go with a monthly limit. one that doesn't break the bank, but one that also isn't to low to make it not worth it for the game developer. how about $10 per day and $50 per month? then you can spend your weekends playing away and buying to your hearts content. and if you instead do that every day, well then, you are going to have to ask yourself: home come that at the end of the money, there is so much month left over? another measure would be the cost of a pack of cigarettes. at what point does smoking affect you financially? i think there may be studies for that. that same number ought to apply to games. now there is still the problem of multiple games. so maybe another cap for overall spending. but that is trickier. how does that cap distinguish game spending vs using an app to buy groceries online?
- Paul-ish 7y agoPerhaps games with in-app purchases should be required to be rated 18+ (thus inaccessible to children's accounts). The developer can make a two versions if they think the game could do with a lower rating.
- zajio1am 7y agoSeems to me that main problem here is that consumers have insufficient control about their payment card transactions. Why card transactions can be initiated by merchant without explicit authorization of each transaction by the customer? If merchant-initiated transactions are desirable (e.g. for periodic payments), why there is no explicit confirmation for number and size of allowed transactions per time period for given merchant, like it is standard for regular direct debit bank transactions?
- foxfired 7y agoMost parents do not spend time playing the games their children play (HN is an outlier here). I see parents giving their phones to their children with an active credit card on file. Its not really the parents fault, how could they know? All the games start as fun and innocent. It's when the child get past level twenty that the difficulty kicks in. You have to pay to make any significant progress. Most kids don't know any better, all they do is press the button to progress. The parents don't know any better, all they did was give the phone to their restless child. The game developer however, designed it specifically to trick both parent and child.
- glenvdb 7y agoAs someone who grew up on games during the GameBoy and N64 era, I have fond memories of gaming and want my son to grow up with gaming in his life. But in my "old man yells at cloud" state of mind, I don't want him to grow up on gaming of today. He's not yet old enough to play video games, but when he is I'm inspired to implement something similar to what's outlined here: https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3 https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3 TL:DR Start his gaming journey at the beginning of the gaming industry (i.e. Pong, Pac-Man) in the hope that exposure to what gaming used to be like will "inoculate" him against what gaming is like today.
- Latty 7y agoWhat you are talking about is a subset of games today - there are still tons of great games out there with ethical monetization (more than there ever have been, in fact). Yeah, you have to skip some of the big names and a lot of the mobile space, but that still leaves a lot of great stuff out there. While letting them experience a ton of classics certainly isn't a bad idea, it also isn't the only way to avoid predatory monetization.
- anonymous5133 7y agoNot sure how many people know this but you can use a service like privacy.com to get burner credit card numbers. For example, you can create a burner credit card number that only works one time or has a specific spend limit (like $20 per transaction or $20 total in transactions per month). Credit cards/debit cards are inherently insecure because the credit card number can be reused by anyone who has the code. It is a free service. If the parents in the article used a service like that then all of their spending problems would be solved because junior couldn't charge the card any further. All additional transactions would simply be declined. The article talks about government regulation, but the government honestly has better things to worry about than what junior is spending on apps. People simply need to use the existing services, like privacy.com, to control their spending.
- zamadatix 7y agoOr (in this case) at least set up purchase alerting on the card.
- baobabKoodaa 7y agoWell, that's a thinly veiled advertisement, but hey, at least it's tangentially related to the topic.
- RenRav 7y agoCan't games by default send an sms/email to their parents asking for confirmation? This could just be something you enable/disable in game with a PIN. I don't know, anything would be nice. With no protection, you get the idea this is exactly what publishers want to happen.
- awillen 7y agoThere is, without doubt, a lot of garbage out there in these games for purchase. There are also a lot of issues with the way they get people to spend money. That said, if your kid steals your credit card and spends a bunch of money on it, the issue isn't the game, it's that your kid is stealing from you. If he/she stole your credit card and bought clothes at the mall, you wouldn't blame the clothing store...
- Lazare 7y agoI think an obvious solution here is simply to strengthen consumer protection laws and shift the burden of preventing this from the consumer to the vendor. The common thread in all these stories was "a kid spends a bunch of money, parent asks for a refund, is told no". But consider if the law says that digital goods such as this must be refunded on demand unless you can prove the purchaser wasn't a child. (If you want to really drive the point home, add a penalty clause for abuse, so you have to refund 150% of the total if there's evidence of any attempt to target minors, hide the charges, dark patterns, etc.) If Apple becomes statutorily required to refund the money, they'll get very good very quickly at kicking bad actors off their platform. This shouldn't be a system where parents try and protect themselves and their children and scummy vendors try and exploit them; it should be a shystem where Apple (and the other platforms and market operators) try to protect themselves and scummy vendors try and exploit them. Leave liability with the people most able to protect themselves, not the least able. I don't think bans or treating games like drugs is needed; if you remove the financial incentive of being abusive, you'll stop the abuse.
- ldoughty 7y agoI think parents need to understand that you can't give children a credit card, or credit-card like power. I was 14 before I was given access to a credit card.. and was given a dire warning about when it could and should be used. If parents can't lock out purchases so they have to physically approve each purchase, then yes, they should be able to get refunds and penalties... But if they give their children the password to buy/download apps unsupervised, they need to understand the consequences (and really, how the heck do you not realize that unlimited purchasing power on an app store is a possibility?) The first story in this article is about a kid with "the mental development of a 7 year old"... Well.... I wouldn't give MY 7 year old a credit card! Supervise your children! If it's too much work to monitor their purchases and approve each one, complain to the platform for more control. It would take Apple, Google, Steam, etc. <120 hours of work to implement a "Monthly budget" system if people demanded it. Btw, how do you miss that 3,200 pounds is spent over 3-4 months, if that clears out your bank account? I'd agree that 14 days is a bit short for a refund period, but asking for 4 months to return digital goods that have been thoroughly used by that point..... might as well shut down all the game studios...
- Arn_Thor 7y agoWhat were these parents thinking? This isn't a new issue. People have been reading stories like this in the news for a decade and still they hand their kid their iPad and say "go play over there while dad watches the news..." You can literally use your phone and google/apple account as a credit card nowadays. It's irresponsible to just hand that to a child. Ignorance is not an excuse. (that said, of course there should be consumer protections in place to limit the damage)
- neilalexander 7y agoI disagree that it's as simple as just blaming the parents. As a technical community it is easy for us to assert that there are probably optional restrictions somewhere but many parents who are not technically-minded will not necessarily make that connection. Manufacturers/vendors of these devices simply don't do a good job of advertising to parents about these risks and the options available to restrict them. iOS, as an example, does have the ability to disable in-app purchases using the "Content & Privacy Restrictions" settings, but unless you dig through the device settings and found them (under "Screen Time" no less) then you would not know that those options exist. Given the obscure naming reducing the chance of them ever being found, they had might as well not exist. Apple could do things to improve this. They could clearly ask about parental controls up-front during the device initial setup, they could clearly place them at the top-level of the Settings app and label them "Parental Controls", they could even include a bit of paper in the box or some printed text on the packaging that explains where to find those options. They do none of those things.
- Arn_Thor 7y agoI'd argue it's the parents responsibility to educate themselves in this regard. Again, this isn't new news. If you can make a purchase on the device, your child can make that purchase too. Certainly, the OS can flag more warnings during the setup of the device etc. but I doubt the people getting into this situation will pay any more attention than they've evidently done so far (which is to say very little)
- duckqlz 7y agoTL;DR Don't give your children access to your credit / bank cards. Seriously...
- sbhn 7y agoI’m addicted to the news, and especially if it makes me feel like i’m under attack by forces i have no control over. Thanyou BBC, you’re my opium.
- rehasu 7y agoI don't understand why people don't learn the rules of the game called "business" at least a little bit. If you have the right to cancel something within 14 days there are rules to how to do this. Don't expect cooperation from the other side of the table. Just follow the rules. I'm quite sure the rules say something like this, but I'm not a lawyer and have not looked it up again: 1. Find out the business address of that company, preferably one in your country if there are multiple options. 2. Write a letter in Word where you say you want to revert the orders <list of date, object, price>. 3. Print, sign, then photograph that letter with your phone (which adds a date to the photo). 4. Go to your town's post office and tell them you want to send this letter in a way that the receiver needs to sign for that and you want to get back that signature. 5. Wait for the signature. 6. If nothing happens besides the signature, write them an email adding all the details and the photos of the signature and the letter. 7. If still nothing happens on your bank account, and the sum is over 500€ or similar go with all the documents to a court and request they help you get the money back. Not sure if other countries but in my country for 45€ they will send a specially colored letter to the company claiming the payment and threatening a lawsuit. 8. Check the times here, but when they are up and nothing happened go with all these things to a lawyer and he will probably sue for you. In most countries losing such a lawsuit is path that might end up bringing the CEO into jail (not directly, but it certainly is on the table as possibility at this point), so the chances are super high that at this point they will send the money or declare bankruptcy. In case of bankruptcy your lawyer knows how to continue. There's no need for reminders, warnings, etc. All that might end up you being behind your deadlines. Print a paper letter, sign it, and send it in a way that can prove reception. A professional company with good intent will also not feel threatened by you doing the right thing according to law. So don't be afraid to be perceived as unfriendly. The only people who will claim unfriendliness here either have no idea what they are doing or are using your shame against you in the hopes that you do mistakes.
- DanBC 7y agoThere's a bunch of people in this thread saying "but what about the parents", and a bunch of other people in this thread saying "but dark patterns", and they're both missing the point. If you're in the industry and making money from IAPs, especially from lootbox IAPs, the one thing you need to know is that governments are coming for you. If you're Apple or Google taking 30% of those IAPs (and also not paying much tax) then government is coming after that money. If you're a publisher selling games for children, marketed to children, with hundreds or thousands of dollars of IAPs then governments are coming after you too. Articles like this are a clear and simple warning: fix your shit, sort out sensible industry self-regulation, or face EU wide regulation. We have plenty of examples to prove that the EU or individual governments are not afraid of bringing in fierce regulation.
- tootahe45 7y ago3160 is likely nothing compared to what he's being deprived of. I have massive regrets of the time wasted gaming through my teens.
- Traster 7y agoHe was a disabled adult with learning disabilities, I am quite sure that his experience is not the same as yours, as you would know, had you read the article.
- pjc50 7y agoWhat else would you have done with it? What else would you realistically have done with it? Everyone likes to imagine that the would have spent it on improving practices like learning a second language and a musical instrument, but would you really have done those things or found another distraction?
- PeterStuer 7y agoHer is a useful overview on platform support to limit access to in game purchases https://pegi.info/page/game-purchases https://pegi.info/page/game-purchases
- kitchenkarma 7y agoEvery generation has problems like this. I remember my friend become addicted to calling premium phone numbers when when he was a teenager. When his parents went to work, he would have stayed home and just keep calling all day instead of going to school. Only when the bill came through post his parents went mad and started to blame everyone but themselves. Eventually they got premium numbers blocked, but his son was spending all the money he could get his hands on on call cards. It was a phase for him, he stopped doing that after few months. When he talked about it years later, he couldn't believe that he did this. He says he wishes his parents gave him more attention and explained to him what it is about and why it makes no sense to do something like this. Fascist love such stories, because they can use them to tell people how they should live and create more regulations.
- vectorEQ 7y agogames. the dial-up scams of the twenty first century.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- IntegralCalcs 7y agoGrowing up I was often nervous of accidentally purchasing something in an app store or other online accounts. Free trials will not always notify you when your free trial is up and your payments will automatically go through. Personally I believe regulations are necessary in order to avoid accidental payments for expensive applications.
- enterx 7y agoAs a previous employee of one of the biggest free to play game companies i felt pretty bad. What parents aren't aware of is the fact that game companies except the developers employ professional PhD psychologists to take advantage of people - mostly kids.
- FerretFred 7y agoIn the UK there's tremendous lip-service by the gambling industry about keeping vulnerable people safe from becoming addicted to gambling apps. However, they spend millions constantly promoting any number of gambling apps disguised as games to children. Not just on the Internet, but on daytime TV, where you get a commercial break every 5-10 minutes. I have no idea how they get away with it - the "Regulator" must be asleep.
- g00s3_caLL_x2 7y ago"Tighter regulation" how about 'tighter parenting'!? Problem solved.
- FraKtus 7y agoMy daughter is playing several of those games such as Roblox on her iPad; she can't install new applications of buy credits without me entering the password in the apple store. The cool part of doing that is that I ask her to convince me why she needs those credits, what she will use them for, doing that I can understand what she does in the game and see if it fit her. Another side of those games is that they have a social side and you can interact with other kids, so it's important to know that and make sure your kid understands that not everybody can be nice on a social network. In the end, I don't understand a parent that gives that power to their children...
- NimmohN 7y agoThere's always a reason behind every addiction, we should deal with the root I guess. https://finance.uonbi.ac.ke/node/128742 https://finance.uonbi.ac.ke/node/128742