10 ms·

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Min

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

liberte82 7y ago
It's difficult to blame Chinese students for not wanting to stay when they're being met with outright hostile rhetoric from the political establishment. Economic considerations completely aside, no one wants to live and work in that kind of environment.
- asdfman123 7y ago
  No want wants to live in that kind of environment? In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In China, you can be jailed with no due process for speaking out about human rights abuses. Also, better hope you're not in a religious minority. Don't say anything bad about the government, because they're watching you!
  - hakka-nyu-su 7y ago
    The hostile environment for ethnic Chinese people (especially academicians) in the US is about more than, and predates, Trump's tweets. https://supchina.com/sinophobia-tracker/ https://supchina.com/sinophobia-tracker/ It includes visa restrictions and harassment (e.g., computer seizures, pressuring your job to fire you) from agencies like the FBI and NIH. It also impacts people who have no connection to China, like the Taiwanese Wen Ho Lee.
  - jhedwards 7y ago
    When I was living in China this didn't bother most of the Han Chinese I met. Most of them were so concerned about lifting their families out of poverty and providing for their future that if you said to them "but you can't speak out about human rights abuses" they'd just look at you like "why the hell would I want to do that".
    - asdfman123 7y ago
      Maybe they don't talk about it because they know they are not allowed to talk about it. I knew a Chinese exchange student who would debate all sorts of things, but when you brought up the Chinese government she would come to a hard stop and say "I don't talk about that." It's probably smart if you're from an authoritarian country.
      - Nexusone 7y ago
        你说的确实是个问题，中国人和中国人之间讨论没问题，但是如果和一个外国人讨论，那就有问题了。像你这样的，一开始就认为这个国家是专制的，那我和你讨论只会越来越糟，然后你回到了你的国家，谁知道你又会怎么描述我当时所说的东西呢？
      - vkou 7y ago
        > I knew a Chinese exchange student who would debate all sorts of things, but when you brought up the Chinese government she would come to a hard stop and say "I don't talk about that." If she's considering immigrating to the United States at any point in the future, she would be wise to not debate anything that has to do with the United States, in any electronically recorded medium. All visa/status adjustment applicants now have to turn over their social media identities. It would be prudent for her to not express a viewpoint[1] that might have an adverse impact on her immigration. [1] What are those viewpoints? We don't know - CBP won't tell anyone. And whatever they will tell, may very well change in the future.
        PavlovsCat 7y ago
        That doesn't even address the point, which is not everybody who claims they don't care actually doesn't care.
      - benjaminbrodie 7y ago
        There's a legitimate point to view according to which democracy and the right to vote don't really matter that much. At the end of the day people want to live meaningful, fulfilling lives, and there's little reason to think that living under an authoritarian regime per se has any impact on your life's meaning or affects one's ability to pursue intrinsically rewarding activities (unlike, say, poverty, which does pose a genuine obstacle, because it forces one to become someone else's machine for a big portion of one's life). If anything it may have a salutary effect by discouraging people from pursuing politics or engaging in political conversations (which is the unmeaningful activity par excellence, as additive as video games, while at the same time carrying far more danger because one tends not to feel guilty about wasting one's time on it).
  - vkou 7y ago
    > In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. If you think the extent of America's hostility against certain types of immigrants is limited to Dump Truck saying mean things on Twitter, I'm not sure what to tell you. [1] DT doesn't exist in a vaccum. There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections than it loses, that panders to that constituency. [1] I also find it incredibly ironic that you are dimissing anti-immigrant sentiment as 'it's just words' - as in - words aren't a big deal, while in the same breath, pointing out that words are in fact a big deal, because there are many that you can't say in China. [2] [2] Are 'just words' a big deal or not? You can't have it both ways.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      > There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections than it loses, that panders to that constituency. So very powerful, winning so many elections, yet they barely made a dent in even just legal immigration - it is still above 1 million per year, and the white population went from 85% in 1960, to 63% in 2010 [1] - a period during which the party that panders to xenophobia won more than half the elections, as you say. Meanwhile the non-xenophobic China has 1 million immigrants total, and is 91% Han-Chinese [2] - homogeneity and demographic isolation beyond anything depicted in works criticizing fascism like Man in the High Castle. That the country taking in the most immigrants, and so rapidly changing its demographics, gets labeled as the racist xenophobic one, while the closed ethno-state gets no criticism of its immigration policy, is a sick joke. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
      - vkou 7y ago
        > That the country taking in the most immigrants, and so rapidly changing its demographics, gets labeled as the racist xenophobic one, If you read the entirety of my post, you may notice that I did not label the United States as a xenophobic country. I labeled a particular, but currently politically powerful subset of the population as a xenophobic one. If you doubt that it exists, you can find a good representation of it at your nearest MAGA rally. If you have any immigrant friends, I recommend bringing them with you... And ask them what they think of what they'll see. They may find their eyes more persuasive than your assurances that everything is fine.
  - hello_moto 7y ago
    This statement seems true without context but false with context. Allow me to provide the context: If you're a Chinese internantional student living in the USA where the #1 guy in the country uses Identity Politics as its arsenal to win and lead the country, you, as an outsider, will feel insecure w.r.t of races. If you're a Chinese international student coming back home to your country of origin, you're used to the situations there: that's what you were born with and that's your culture that you're used to for 18 years of your life. I mean, you're still free to roam the streets, eat any food, continue with your life as-is. It's not like you live in a jail. If you're a typical Americans who doesn't like the government to limit virtually anything (yes, I'm dead serious, Americans want everything and they don't like rules), you probably look at other countries as some sort of un-democratic, nazi-like state. I've seen a few people here criticized Singapore! If you go to Singapore, there's only a limited number of citizens who dislike the leaders. Context is very important when comparing two countries/cultures. For example, I live in a no-gun country so I scratched my head hard whenever I see mass-shooting in the US every week killing your children just because folks love their guns. That's just... crazy. Step inside a land/house by accident and gets killed by the homeowner's M14 is just... nuts (yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit).
    - refurb 7y ago
      You China's disregard for human rights is not a big deal because if you're from there you're used to it?
      - jsgo 7y ago
        Probably a case of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Within the past 100 years we had internment camps for Japanese Americans so if I were an outsider from a country that we have a shaky relationship with, the thought of that or being accused of spying probably wouldn't be too far off in my mind.
        throw0101a 7y ago
        > Within the past 100 years we had internment camps for Japanese Americans In the present day, if you're a black American you may also have a different perspective on life in the US than if you're white.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    Most people make decisions based on how the environment affects them personally. The type of Chinese immigrants who are likely to get Ph.Ds and work in high tech are generally not religious minorities (if they were, they likely wouldn't have gotten that far in the educational system). They're also not particularly interested in getting involved in politics or speaking out about human rights abuses. Usually if they get to that level of education and have the choice between staying in the U.S. to work for a tech company or research lab or going back to China, it's because they've devoted their life to mastering a specific scientific or technical subject. For someone in that position, likelihood of facing employment discrimination or being deported is generally a much bigger threat than lack of political freedoms. Selection bias is the most powerful force in nature. The U.S. benefitted very significantly from dictatorships in the 1930-80s that actively repressed academics and educated people, because it forced all of them to move to the U.S, where we welcomed them with open arms. Most of these governments wised up (or rather, facing selection bias, they were overthrown by the consequences of raping their own nations), and now most of the rest of the world is quite welcoming of people with scientific and technical knowledge. The U.S. risks going down the same path if it adopts the same attitudes that didn't work for our competitors.
    - asdfman123 7y ago
      I feel China's government embodies enlightened authoritarianism. Many authoritarian governments of the past made the mistake of trying to tinker too hard with economics, with horrible results. China is run by technocrats who know how not to sabotage the money supply.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of citizens.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  In all honesty it's even kind of going beyond that right now. You could end up being the poor innocent chinese patsy that they arrest for God knows what in some tit-for-tat power display. No one wants to be the dummy sitting in a foreign prison for 10 or 15 years while China and the US argue over their dick sizes. As an American I'd think very carefully about working in China right now for the same reason. No matter where you are in the world, you're always breaking some law, and they can pick you up and throw the book at you to make a PR point whenever they please. Same as for a Chinese person in the US. Feel bad, because the guys travelling to work or study really do just want to meet each other and have interesting idea exchanges, maybe make some friends, etc. But then the political type people get involved, and it just gets a bit too complicated and you start weighing the potential risks differently.
  - hostilerhetoric 7y ago
    There is literally zero precedent for what you’re talking about. Immigrants jailed in the US because of import taxes? Because of a trade rework? Never. We interred Japanese after Japan commuted one of the largest terror attacks in US history, that’s it.
    - dgudkov 7y ago
      >There is literally zero precedent for what you’re talking about. That's not exactly true. While China doesn't detain US citizens (yet!) it detains several Canadian citizens presumable because the Huawei's CFO has been arrested in Canada by a US request. See https://time.com/5626289/china-canada-arrest-yantai/ https://time.com/5626289/china-canada-arrest-yantai/ Which makes things even worse - you may become a hostage due to US/China conflicts even if you happened to be a citizen of a US ally.
    - nkrisc 7y ago
      Conflating war and terrorism isn't a good look for the US either.
    - dang 7y ago
      Would you please not create accounts to do political battle on HN? That's against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We want thoughtful conversation here, not flamewars.
- hostilerhetoric 7y ago
  What hostile rhetoric? When has Donald trump said that he doesn’t want the best and brightest to immigrate here?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
throwaway5752 7y ago
This is just as true with Indian students. Most people don't know how hard, how expensive, and how long it takes for someone to become a naturalized citizen. Combined with hostile rhetoric towards immigrants - and staying away from politics as much as possible, this is a big factor and not always precisely targeted to "illegal" immigration, the US is just not as attractive for knowledge workers as it was 5-10 years ago.
- olcor 7y ago
  I moved back home to India a couple months ago. Apart from the occasional mosquito bite and some customer service issues, there’s little difference. No more nonsensical visa stuff to worry about; I live my current life and plan my future in peace.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  It's not as attractive for the two countries with the largest number of applicants.
- hostilerhetoric 7y ago
  Name a single time that Donald trump has said that he wants to prevent highly intelligent, highly educated people from other countries coming here. Name a single instance of it. I defy you to.
  - dgemm 7y ago
    Regardless of what the guy says, the fact is there have been numerous quiet policy changes that target legal immigration.
  - screye 7y ago
    Why have the RFE rates at target companies sky rocketed ? Why has the EAD waiting time gone for <90days to ~120 days? Actions speak louder than words here.
  - my_first_acct 7y ago
    Welcome to HN. A quick Google search on "Chinese grad student restrictions" yielded an article [1] from December 2018 with the headline "US Considers New Restrictions on Chinese Students". The source is the US government's own news outlet, Voice of America. [1] https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/trump-administration-considers-new-restrictions-on-chinese-students/4681880.html https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/trump-administration-c...
educationdata 7y ago
This number does not mean much. In the old days, more Chinese students rely on full scholarship to study in the US. Now, more and more rich Chinese kids (mostly come with very poor academic background) can study in the US. So the overall number does not reflect "brain drain", because not all international students can be counted in "global talent". A more meaningful number should only count those graduated from good universities, or having scholarship etc.
- LastMuel 7y ago
  Wait, are you saying the only valuable students are the ones that didn’t pay for their education? Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    No, what parent is saying is that there is a huge difference between a rich Chinese kid studying political science and a workin class Chinese kid studying computer science on a PhD stipend. The former has boomed in the last 10 years while the latter was pretty constant for the last 20+.
    - whoevercares 7y ago
      Working class Chinese family in many cities now could also afford a two year master program(e.g Stony Brook U only cost me about RMB 300k for the entire Master with a decent CS program). My family is just normal working class with yearly income about 100k RMB. It’s not quite accurate to attribute all masters to “Rich” because ordinary income has been flying in China
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        True, but then I bet those students are still more into studying STEM than their richer counterparts who are more likely studying liberal arts or biz subjects.
baron_harkonnen 7y ago
I know plenty of really bright, talented and hardworking Chinese grad students who have a preference to stay in the US but the current visa situation is appalling. RFEs (request for evidence) which were once rare have become standard practice, making the wait to start a new job go up by months, with lots of stressful uncertainty as to whether or not you will be allowed to stay in the US. There's lots of VC money in China right now and most talented Chinese tech people have offers waiting for them in China that are both very high level positions with very high compensations. So even if you want to stay in the US on the one hand you have people back home offering you insane opportunities and trying very hard to incentivize you to return, and you have the US government essentially trolling you to make a point about how unwanted you are (from their perspective). The fact that the current US policy is effectively working hard to drive away very talented people who want to be here but have plenty of good offers elsewhere will do plenty of long term harm (for the US).
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  Came here with very similar stories in mind. I knew multiple graduate students from Asian countries who would've loved to find work in the USA, but they were not given nearly enough time to search, nor were they comfortable with the uncertainty and current admin's hostility to foreigners. Around half of these students quickly found jobs back home after months of failed searching here. We are doing real harm to our aging economy by not facilitating these bright young minds to stay here.
- stupidcar 7y ago
  Except the article doesn't say anything about visas or better salaries back home. Its whole slant is that apparently Chinese graduates are moving away from Silicon Valley because those darn US labor laws mean they can't work nine hours a day, six days a week, for lower wages. The article is such a pathetically transparent piece of anti-labor rights astro-turfing: China is going to out-compete the US unless US workers can be forced to accept equally shitty working conditions, that I cannot believe Hacker News is taking it seriously.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
programmertote 7y ago
I see the trend in my coworkers at a big-four ad tech firm as well. At least a couple of them have gone home in the last six months (one of them had her H1B approved less than a year ago as well; and another one already is nearing her STEM OPT extension of 18 months). I came to the US in mid 2000 to study at a fairly well-known liberal arts college (with full scholarships). I worked at a start-up in SF after graduating in late 2000--earning a decent wage of 72K/yr at that time. The CEO didn't want to go through the trouble of applying for H1B for me, so I--at the end of 18 months' OPT STEM extension; after ~2.5 years of working at that start-up---had to apply for a PhD program and started it in 2010's to keep myself in legal status. I finished my PhD in less than 5 years, and joined my current company with OPT (an extension of F1 student visa for practical training in one's major that s/he graduated from) earning low six-figure salary. When my company applied my H1B visa in 2016, it received request for evidence (the USCIS asked me to prove more that my work--data engineering--is related to computer science, which is what I studied my PhD on. I wrote up 3 pages of explanation and finally got it approved in late 2016. Because I worked pretty hard, I was able to convince my company to apply green card for me. But because of the more stringent regulations applied by Trump administration (and partly because my company acquired standard--not premium--service from the law firm that is working on my case), even after 2 years of the process, I am still at the very first step of the application process where the company is waiting for the department of labor (DoL) to provide prevailing wage determination (pretty much stating how much average worker with my salary is earning in the region where I work). I cannot move jobs when this process is pending because my H1B is tied to my employer and employers that are willing to sponsor employees green card aren't that plenty. If I want to go back and visit my old and widowed mom in my home country, I would have to go through the interview process at the US embassy of my home country to get a new H1B stamp on my passport (the stamp expires within a year of issued date; some countries, such as India, have better deal with the US and their citizens usually get stamps valid for like 5 years or so if I remember correctly). It carries the risk that I might be denied either by the embassy or the port of entry immigration officer (none of the three that I have met so far treated me nicely--in fact, two of them were quite rude--despite me being courteous and nice to them) when I re-enter the US with H1B visa, not to mention that the cost of renewing the visa costs about $400. So, the ability to go back to home to revisit my mom as frequently as I like (without much hassle) AND the freedom to move to another job are why I really want to get permanent residency. This is a common path for someone who goes through legal (hardcore) means to become a permanent resident in the US. I only put up with such extremely long journey to become a green card holder because my home country is not China. If it were China, I would be back there by now (I said the same to my departing coworkers). There are easier (in terms of effort/time required) ways like marrying a citizen; seeking asylum (but most of the asylum seekers are doing so for economic reason, meaning they are mostly fake although the success rate of getting approved in democrats administrations are quite high); winning Diversity Visa lottery; and having an immediate blood-relative who submitted application for your green card a decade ago. But none of them are eligible for me or I'm not interested in playing pretend-asylum seeker or paying a US citizen to marry me temporarily. Throughout the years I've been in the US, I worked hard; paid all my taxes; never even have a minor violation such as traffic citation; donated and volunteered at various charities; donated blood more than a dozen times; etc. I thought I did pretty well as a good, law-abiding, immigrant-wannabe. During the ~16 years, I have experienced quite a few (at least a handful of times that I can recall--including being mocked with 'ching chong ling long' by a panhandler, who was trying to sell me a rap CD in metro area) obvious discriminatory abuse from random strangers (I live in a big metro area). I am writing this in detail so that I hope HN readers would realize that it is not an easy route for many of the legal immigrants like myself. Sure some of the shady companies abuse H1B, but majority of H1B workers had to go through a pretty rough route to get their H1Bs. If you ask me, I would totally streamline the H1B system so that the companies are required to pay above the average salaries for H1B hires; H1B hires aren't tied to the employers; getting an H1B approved does not require law firms (quite expensive) and a lot of red tape (like in some countries, the wannabe H1B worker can apply for it her/himself); and more importantly, H1B holders (regardless of their country of origin) can enter and leave the US for either business or personal trips unlimited times without much restriction. Then I really do not have a need for green card because my goal is to eventually go back to my home country and retire there in my late 50s. Life in the US, in my opinion, is a lot more stressful than it should be for a developed nation (worrying about healthcare affordability tops the list for me).
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
The primary beneficiary of educating foreigners in the US, is the US because of the tuition that those students pay the schools. The so called "brain drain" is just a ploy to make you think there's a talent shortage. Companies always want cheaper labor. In actuality, US citizens will benefit from more foreigners returning to their home countries because there's more jobs available for US locals.
noteanddata 7y ago
I am surprised after reading the comments here:) the simple fact is that there are more students from China to US over the years because more students can afford the tuitions, while the H1B visa quota remain the same; also there are more and more students from global as well to compete on the H1B quota. so most of the students have to go back simply because there is not enough visa for them to stay.
- Ancalagon 7y ago
  This is a really excellent point I didn’t even think about.
- noteanddata 7y ago
  to put some data here: https://www.iie.org/Research-and-Insights/Open-Doors/Data/International-Students/Places-of-Origin https://www.iie.org/Research-and-Insights/Open-Doors/Data/In... in 2017/2018 year, there are 363K students from China studying in USA. https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-reaches-fy-2018-h-1b-cap https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-reaches-fy-20... 2018 H1b visa total quota is 85K in total for all students from all countries. while usually <20% of H1B visa goes to people from China. https://www.vox.com/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-visas https://www.vox.com/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-... so, each year, it's probably around 10K to 15K students from China can get H1B visa, compared to a total of 300K students in China, that basically means about 90% students will have to go back. it's more about fast growing number of students from China, also working in US requires H1B visa.
ronnier 7y ago
I wonder how much of this has to do with relationships? If I was Chinese man who came to America for school and was single, I'd move back to China too. Study after study shows that the dating game odds are not good for that particular demographic in the US.
- Dig1t 7y ago
  Dating game odds are way worse in China actually, what with the massive shortage of women. https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/a-distorted-sex-ratio-is-playing-havoc-with-marriage-in-china https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/a-distor...
  - ronnier 7y ago
    Maybe in general, but being educated in the US with good job prospects in China might change that.
    - user5994461 7y ago
      If we are to believe the charts from the article, about half of the unmarried men are illiterate. That's insane. Back to your point, Chinese who worked in the US are educated (fairly rich too) and will do just fine. Also, don't be surprised by prices going up ten fold over a decade. Inflation in developed countries can be 2 digits per year, everything is going up crazy quick.
- aitchnyu 7y ago
  In the case of India, the men seek arranged marriages and bring their wives. Women (parents) express preferences like they want men settled abroad, or that they studied nursing and got the English certifications to work abroad, or are in the process of getting a permanent residency. Bad dating prospects != dying lonely.
strictfp 7y ago
I'm from the nordics and I when I was younger I thought of the US as the ultimate place to be. Now, having been there quite a bit, I must say that it really doesn't impress. The impression I got visiting the US in general (NY, Seattle, San Fran, LA), is that it all seems quite ran down, full of inequality and social problems, and lacking soul, mainly from being so consumerist. And although I would concievebly earn a lot more working over there, the total cost of living would probably more than make up for that increase. Especially considering having kids. My friend who is a US citizen with a well-paying engineering job in the LA area, is considering moving back. The work culture is quite hectic, and the amount of trouble they've been through with child care, insurance issues etc are making them reconsider. Not to mention that the area is super-busy and you spend a large portion of your free time in your car. This obviously doesn't describe the entirety of the United States, but sometimes I wonder if people from the US are aware of living conditions in other western countries. I'm not so sure that the US is coming out on top any longer.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  I talk to quite a lot of Americans online and many of them really are not aware, as they are programmers they generally earn good (by UK standards very good) money but then you start talking to them about what good health insurance for a family of four costs and suddenly things start to look different. I think in some respects the US has coasted on it's former economic glory - I mean sure Silicon Valley is a mecca for folks like us but then you look at things outside of the those types of Nexuses and its a very different picture. In Europe the UK is often regarded (sometimes appropriately) as US-lite but we are still an ocean away literally and figuratively from them in so many ways. Given a lever between moving our politics closer to Nordic countries or the US I know which way I'd push it, I'll take a more equal fairer society with better outcomes for more people over a decrease in the already tiny chance to be super rich - its not really something I've ever really thought about as an end goal anyway - the increase in freedom would be nice but I can't imagine I'd still work insanely hard for that second billion, I'd probably potter about the world learning about history and art and working on open source.
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
kodz4 7y ago
There are simple ways to deal with it. Remove the caps on Indian or other country Visas. The world is quite big.
m0llusk 7y ago
American educated Chinese could help to improve the economy and governance in China which in turn would help with trade and international relations. China coming on line as a platform for professional success with strong internal markets is potentially a very good thing for all global trade partners.

liberte82 7y ago

It's difficult to blame Chinese students for not wanting to stay when they're being met with outright hostile rhetoric from the political establishment. Economic considerations completely aside, no one wants to live and work in that kind of environment.

asdfman123 7y ago
No want wants to live in that kind of environment? In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In China, you can be jailed with no due process for speaking out about human rights abuses. Also, better hope you're not in a religious minority. Don't say anything bad about the government, because they're watching you!
- hakka-nyu-su 7y ago
  The hostile environment for ethnic Chinese people (especially academicians) in the US is about more than, and predates, Trump's tweets. https://supchina.com/sinophobia-tracker/ https://supchina.com/sinophobia-tracker/ It includes visa restrictions and harassment (e.g., computer seizures, pressuring your job to fire you) from agencies like the FBI and NIH. It also impacts people who have no connection to China, like the Taiwanese Wen Ho Lee.
- jhedwards 7y ago
  When I was living in China this didn't bother most of the Han Chinese I met. Most of them were so concerned about lifting their families out of poverty and providing for their future that if you said to them "but you can't speak out about human rights abuses" they'd just look at you like "why the hell would I want to do that".
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    Maybe they don't talk about it because they know they are not allowed to talk about it. I knew a Chinese exchange student who would debate all sorts of things, but when you brought up the Chinese government she would come to a hard stop and say "I don't talk about that." It's probably smart if you're from an authoritarian country.
    - Nexusone 7y ago
      你说的确实是个问题，中国人和中国人之间讨论没问题，但是如果和一个外国人讨论，那就有问题了。像你这样的，一开始就认为这个国家是专制的，那我和你讨论只会越来越糟，然后你回到了你的国家，谁知道你又会怎么描述我当时所说的东西呢？
    - vkou 7y ago
      > I knew a Chinese exchange student who would debate all sorts of things, but when you brought up the Chinese government she would come to a hard stop and say "I don't talk about that." If she's considering immigrating to the United States at any point in the future, she would be wise to not debate anything that has to do with the United States, in any electronically recorded medium. All visa/status adjustment applicants now have to turn over their social media identities. It would be prudent for her to not express a viewpoint[1] that might have an adverse impact on her immigration. [1] What are those viewpoints? We don't know - CBP won't tell anyone. And whatever they will tell, may very well change in the future.
      - PavlovsCat 7y ago
        That doesn't even address the point, which is not everybody who claims they don't care actually doesn't care.
    - benjaminbrodie 7y ago
      There's a legitimate point to view according to which democracy and the right to vote don't really matter that much. At the end of the day people want to live meaningful, fulfilling lives, and there's little reason to think that living under an authoritarian regime per se has any impact on your life's meaning or affects one's ability to pursue intrinsically rewarding activities (unlike, say, poverty, which does pose a genuine obstacle, because it forces one to become someone else's machine for a big portion of one's life). If anything it may have a salutary effect by discouraging people from pursuing politics or engaging in political conversations (which is the unmeaningful activity par excellence, as additive as video games, while at the same time carrying far more danger because one tends not to feel guilty about wasting one's time on it).
- vkou 7y ago
  > In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. If you think the extent of America's hostility against certain types of immigrants is limited to Dump Truck saying mean things on Twitter, I'm not sure what to tell you. [1] DT doesn't exist in a vaccum. There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections than it loses, that panders to that constituency. [1] I also find it incredibly ironic that you are dimissing anti-immigrant sentiment as 'it's just words' - as in - words aren't a big deal, while in the same breath, pointing out that words are in fact a big deal, because there are many that you can't say in China. [2] [2] Are 'just words' a big deal or not? You can't have it both ways.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    > There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections than it loses, that panders to that constituency. So very powerful, winning so many elections, yet they barely made a dent in even just legal immigration - it is still above 1 million per year, and the white population went from 85% in 1960, to 63% in 2010 [1] - a period during which the party that panders to xenophobia won more than half the elections, as you say. Meanwhile the non-xenophobic China has 1 million immigrants total, and is 91% Han-Chinese [2] - homogeneity and demographic isolation beyond anything depicted in works criticizing fascism like Man in the High Castle. That the country taking in the most immigrants, and so rapidly changing its demographics, gets labeled as the racist xenophobic one, while the closed ethno-state gets no criticism of its immigration policy, is a sick joke. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
    - vkou 7y ago
      > That the country taking in the most immigrants, and so rapidly changing its demographics, gets labeled as the racist xenophobic one, If you read the entirety of my post, you may notice that I did not label the United States as a xenophobic country. I labeled a particular, but currently politically powerful subset of the population as a xenophobic one. If you doubt that it exists, you can find a good representation of it at your nearest MAGA rally. If you have any immigrant friends, I recommend bringing them with you... And ask them what they think of what they'll see. They may find their eyes more persuasive than your assurances that everything is fine.
- hello_moto 7y ago
  This statement seems true without context but false with context. Allow me to provide the context: If you're a Chinese internantional student living in the USA where the #1 guy in the country uses Identity Politics as its arsenal to win and lead the country, you, as an outsider, will feel insecure w.r.t of races. If you're a Chinese international student coming back home to your country of origin, you're used to the situations there: that's what you were born with and that's your culture that you're used to for 18 years of your life. I mean, you're still free to roam the streets, eat any food, continue with your life as-is. It's not like you live in a jail. If you're a typical Americans who doesn't like the government to limit virtually anything (yes, I'm dead serious, Americans want everything and they don't like rules), you probably look at other countries as some sort of un-democratic, nazi-like state. I've seen a few people here criticized Singapore! If you go to Singapore, there's only a limited number of citizens who dislike the leaders. Context is very important when comparing two countries/cultures. For example, I live in a no-gun country so I scratched my head hard whenever I see mass-shooting in the US every week killing your children just because folks love their guns. That's just... crazy. Step inside a land/house by accident and gets killed by the homeowner's M14 is just... nuts (yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit).
  - refurb 7y ago
    You China's disregard for human rights is not a big deal because if you're from there you're used to it?
    - jsgo 7y ago
      Probably a case of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Within the past 100 years we had internment camps for Japanese Americans so if I were an outsider from a country that we have a shaky relationship with, the thought of that or being accused of spying probably wouldn't be too far off in my mind.
      - throw0101a 7y ago
        > Within the past 100 years we had internment camps for Japanese Americans In the present day, if you're a black American you may also have a different perspective on life in the US than if you're white.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  Most people make decisions based on how the environment affects them personally. The type of Chinese immigrants who are likely to get Ph.Ds and work in high tech are generally not religious minorities (if they were, they likely wouldn't have gotten that far in the educational system). They're also not particularly interested in getting involved in politics or speaking out about human rights abuses. Usually if they get to that level of education and have the choice between staying in the U.S. to work for a tech company or research lab or going back to China, it's because they've devoted their life to mastering a specific scientific or technical subject. For someone in that position, likelihood of facing employment discrimination or being deported is generally a much bigger threat than lack of political freedoms. Selection bias is the most powerful force in nature. The U.S. benefitted very significantly from dictatorships in the 1930-80s that actively repressed academics and educated people, because it forced all of them to move to the U.S, where we welcomed them with open arms. Most of these governments wised up (or rather, facing selection bias, they were overthrown by the consequences of raping their own nations), and now most of the rest of the world is quite welcoming of people with scientific and technical knowledge. The U.S. risks going down the same path if it adopts the same attitudes that didn't work for our competitors.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    I feel China's government embodies enlightened authoritarianism. Many authoritarian governments of the past made the mistake of trying to tinker too hard with economics, with horrible results. China is run by technocrats who know how not to sabotage the money supply.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of citizens.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bilbo0s 7y ago
In all honesty it's even kind of going beyond that right now. You could end up being the poor innocent chinese patsy that they arrest for God knows what in some tit-for-tat power display. No one wants to be the dummy sitting in a foreign prison for 10 or 15 years while China and the US argue over their dick sizes. As an American I'd think very carefully about working in China right now for the same reason. No matter where you are in the world, you're always breaking some law, and they can pick you up and throw the book at you to make a PR point whenever they please. Same as for a Chinese person in the US. Feel bad, because the guys travelling to work or study really do just want to meet each other and have interesting idea exchanges, maybe make some friends, etc. But then the political type people get involved, and it just gets a bit too complicated and you start weighing the potential risks differently.
- hostilerhetoric 7y ago
  There is literally zero precedent for what you’re talking about. Immigrants jailed in the US because of import taxes? Because of a trade rework? Never. We interred Japanese after Japan commuted one of the largest terror attacks in US history, that’s it.
  - dgudkov 7y ago
    >There is literally zero precedent for what you’re talking about. That's not exactly true. While China doesn't detain US citizens (yet!) it detains several Canadian citizens presumable because the Huawei's CFO has been arrested in Canada by a US request. See https://time.com/5626289/china-canada-arrest-yantai/ https://time.com/5626289/china-canada-arrest-yantai/ Which makes things even worse - you may become a hostage due to US/China conflicts even if you happened to be a citizen of a US ally.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    Conflating war and terrorism isn't a good look for the US either.
  - dang 7y ago
    Would you please not create accounts to do political battle on HN? That's against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We want thoughtful conversation here, not flamewars.
hostilerhetoric 7y ago
What hostile rhetoric? When has Donald trump said that he doesn’t want the best and brightest to immigrate here?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

throwaway5752 7y ago

This is just as true with Indian students. Most people don't know how hard, how expensive, and how long it takes for someone to become a naturalized citizen. Combined with hostile rhetoric towards immigrants - and staying away from politics as much as possible, this is a big factor and not always precisely targeted to "illegal" immigration, the US is just not as attractive for knowledge workers as it was 5-10 years ago.

olcor 7y ago
I moved back home to India a couple months ago. Apart from the occasional mosquito bite and some customer service issues, there’s little difference. No more nonsensical visa stuff to worry about; I live my current life and plan my future in peace.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
It's not as attractive for the two countries with the largest number of applicants.
hostilerhetoric 7y ago
Name a single time that Donald trump has said that he wants to prevent highly intelligent, highly educated people from other countries coming here. Name a single instance of it. I defy you to.
- dgemm 7y ago
  Regardless of what the guy says, the fact is there have been numerous quiet policy changes that target legal immigration.
- screye 7y ago
  Why have the RFE rates at target companies sky rocketed ? Why has the EAD waiting time gone for <90days to ~120 days? Actions speak louder than words here.
- my_first_acct 7y ago
  Welcome to HN. A quick Google search on "Chinese grad student restrictions" yielded an article [1] from December 2018 with the headline "US Considers New Restrictions on Chinese Students". The source is the US government's own news outlet, Voice of America. [1] https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/trump-administration-considers-new-restrictions-on-chinese-students/4681880.html https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/trump-administration-c...

educationdata 7y ago

This number does not mean much. In the old days, more Chinese students rely on full scholarship to study in the US. Now, more and more rich Chinese kids (mostly come with very poor academic background) can study in the US. So the overall number does not reflect "brain drain", because not all international students can be counted in "global talent". A more meaningful number should only count those graduated from good universities, or having scholarship etc.

LastMuel 7y ago
Wait, are you saying the only valuable students are the ones that didn’t pay for their education? Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  No, what parent is saying is that there is a huge difference between a rich Chinese kid studying political science and a workin class Chinese kid studying computer science on a PhD stipend. The former has boomed in the last 10 years while the latter was pretty constant for the last 20+.
  - whoevercares 7y ago
    Working class Chinese family in many cities now could also afford a two year master program(e.g Stony Brook U only cost me about RMB 300k for the entire Master with a decent CS program). My family is just normal working class with yearly income about 100k RMB. It’s not quite accurate to attribute all masters to “Rich” because ordinary income has been flying in China
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      True, but then I bet those students are still more into studying STEM than their richer counterparts who are more likely studying liberal arts or biz subjects.

baron_harkonnen 7y ago

I know plenty of really bright, talented and hardworking Chinese grad students who have a preference to stay in the US but the current visa situation is appalling. RFEs (request for evidence) which were once rare have become standard practice, making the wait to start a new job go up by months, with lots of stressful uncertainty as to whether or not you will be allowed to stay in the US. There's lots of VC money in China right now and most talented Chinese tech people have offers waiting for them in China that are both very high level positions with very high compensations. So even if you want to stay in the US on the one hand you have people back home offering you insane opportunities and trying very hard to incentivize you to return, and you have the US government essentially trolling you to make a point about how unwanted you are (from their perspective). The fact that the current US policy is effectively working hard to drive away very talented people who want to be here but have plenty of good offers elsewhere will do plenty of long term harm (for the US).

WhompingWindows 7y ago
Came here with very similar stories in mind. I knew multiple graduate students from Asian countries who would've loved to find work in the USA, but they were not given nearly enough time to search, nor were they comfortable with the uncertainty and current admin's hostility to foreigners. Around half of these students quickly found jobs back home after months of failed searching here. We are doing real harm to our aging economy by not facilitating these bright young minds to stay here.
stupidcar 7y ago
Except the article doesn't say anything about visas or better salaries back home. Its whole slant is that apparently Chinese graduates are moving away from Silicon Valley because those darn US labor laws mean they can't work nine hours a day, six days a week, for lower wages. The article is such a pathetically transparent piece of anti-labor rights astro-turfing: China is going to out-compete the US unless US workers can be forced to accept equally shitty working conditions, that I cannot believe Hacker News is taking it seriously.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

programmertote 7y ago

I see the trend in my coworkers at a big-four ad tech firm as well. At least a couple of them have gone home in the last six months (one of them had her H1B approved less than a year ago as well; and another one already is nearing her STEM OPT extension of 18 months). I came to the US in mid 2000 to study at a fairly well-known liberal arts college (with full scholarships). I worked at a start-up in SF after graduating in late 2000--earning a decent wage of 72K/yr at that time. The CEO didn't want to go through the trouble of applying for H1B for me, so I--at the end of 18 months' OPT STEM extension; after ~2.5 years of working at that start-up---had to apply for a PhD program and started it in 2010's to keep myself in legal status. I finished my PhD in less than 5 years, and joined my current company with OPT (an extension of F1 student visa for practical training in one's major that s/he graduated from) earning low six-figure salary. When my company applied my H1B visa in 2016, it received request for evidence (the USCIS asked me to prove more that my work--data engineering--is related to computer science, which is what I studied my PhD on. I wrote up 3 pages of explanation and finally got it approved in late 2016. Because I worked pretty hard, I was able to convince my company to apply green card for me. But because of the more stringent regulations applied by Trump administration (and partly because my company acquired standard--not premium--service from the law firm that is working on my case), even after 2 years of the process, I am still at the very first step of the application process where the company is waiting for the department of labor (DoL) to provide prevailing wage determination (pretty much stating how much average worker with my salary is earning in the region where I work). I cannot move jobs when this process is pending because my H1B is tied to my employer and employers that are willing to sponsor employees green card aren't that plenty. If I want to go back and visit my old and widowed mom in my home country, I would have to go through the interview process at the US embassy of my home country to get a new H1B stamp on my passport (the stamp expires within a year of issued date; some countries, such as India, have better deal with the US and their citizens usually get stamps valid for like 5 years or so if I remember correctly). It carries the risk that I might be denied either by the embassy or the port of entry immigration officer (none of the three that I have met so far treated me nicely--in fact, two of them were quite rude--despite me being courteous and nice to them) when I re-enter the US with H1B visa, not to mention that the cost of renewing the visa costs about $400. So, the ability to go back to home to revisit my mom as frequently as I like (without much hassle) AND the freedom to move to another job are why I really want to get permanent residency. This is a common path for someone who goes through legal (hardcore) means to become a permanent resident in the US. I only put up with such extremely long journey to become a green card holder because my home country is not China. If it were China, I would be back there by now (I said the same to my departing coworkers). There are easier (in terms of effort/time required) ways like marrying a citizen; seeking asylum (but most of the asylum seekers are doing so for economic reason, meaning they are mostly fake although the success rate of getting approved in democrats administrations are quite high); winning Diversity Visa lottery; and having an immediate blood-relative who submitted application for your green card a decade ago. But none of them are eligible for me or I'm not interested in playing pretend-asylum seeker or paying a US citizen to marry me temporarily. Throughout the years I've been in the US, I worked hard; paid all my taxes; never even have a minor violation such as traffic citation; donated and volunteered at various charities; donated blood more than a dozen times; etc. I thought I did pretty well as a good, law-abiding, immigrant-wannabe. During the ~16 years, I have experienced quite a few (at least a handful of times that I can recall--including being mocked with 'ching chong ling long' by a panhandler, who was trying to sell me a rap CD in metro area) obvious discriminatory abuse from random strangers (I live in a big metro area). I am writing this in detail so that I hope HN readers would realize that it is not an easy route for many of the legal immigrants like myself. Sure some of the shady companies abuse H1B, but majority of H1B workers had to go through a pretty rough route to get their H1Bs. If you ask me, I would totally streamline the H1B system so that the companies are required to pay above the average salaries for H1B hires; H1B hires aren't tied to the employers; getting an H1B approved does not require law firms (quite expensive) and a lot of red tape (like in some countries, the wannabe H1B worker can apply for it her/himself); and more importantly, H1B holders (regardless of their country of origin) can enter and leave the US for either business or personal trips unlimited times without much restriction. Then I really do not have a need for green card because my goal is to eventually go back to my home country and retire there in my late 50s. Life in the US, in my opinion, is a lot more stressful than it should be for a developed nation (worrying about healthcare affordability tops the list for me).

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

The primary beneficiary of educating foreigners in the US, is the US because of the tuition that those students pay the schools. The so called "brain drain" is just a ploy to make you think there's a talent shortage. Companies always want cheaper labor. In actuality, US citizens will benefit from more foreigners returning to their home countries because there's more jobs available for US locals.

noteanddata 7y ago

I am surprised after reading the comments here:) the simple fact is that there are more students from China to US over the years because more students can afford the tuitions, while the H1B visa quota remain the same; also there are more and more students from global as well to compete on the H1B quota. so most of the students have to go back simply because there is not enough visa for them to stay.

Ancalagon 7y ago
This is a really excellent point I didn’t even think about.
noteanddata 7y ago
to put some data here: https://www.iie.org/Research-and-Insights/Open-Doors/Data/International-Students/Places-of-Origin https://www.iie.org/Research-and-Insights/Open-Doors/Data/In... in 2017/2018 year, there are 363K students from China studying in USA. https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-reaches-fy-2018-h-1b-cap https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-reaches-fy-20... 2018 H1b visa total quota is 85K in total for all students from all countries. while usually <20% of H1B visa goes to people from China. https://www.vox.com/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-visas https://www.vox.com/2017/4/13/15281170/china-india-tech-h1b-... so, each year, it's probably around 10K to 15K students from China can get H1B visa, compared to a total of 300K students in China, that basically means about 90% students will have to go back. it's more about fast growing number of students from China, also working in US requires H1B visa.

ronnier 7y ago

I wonder how much of this has to do with relationships? If I was Chinese man who came to America for school and was single, I'd move back to China too. Study after study shows that the dating game odds are not good for that particular demographic in the US.

Dig1t 7y ago
Dating game odds are way worse in China actually, what with the massive shortage of women. https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/a-distorted-sex-ratio-is-playing-havoc-with-marriage-in-china https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/a-distor...
- ronnier 7y ago
  Maybe in general, but being educated in the US with good job prospects in China might change that.
  - user5994461 7y ago
    If we are to believe the charts from the article, about half of the unmarried men are illiterate. That's insane. Back to your point, Chinese who worked in the US are educated (fairly rich too) and will do just fine. Also, don't be surprised by prices going up ten fold over a decade. Inflation in developed countries can be 2 digits per year, everything is going up crazy quick.
aitchnyu 7y ago
In the case of India, the men seek arranged marriages and bring their wives. Women (parents) express preferences like they want men settled abroad, or that they studied nursing and got the English certifications to work abroad, or are in the process of getting a permanent residency. Bad dating prospects != dying lonely.

strictfp 7y ago

I'm from the nordics and I when I was younger I thought of the US as the ultimate place to be. Now, having been there quite a bit, I must say that it really doesn't impress. The impression I got visiting the US in general (NY, Seattle, San Fran, LA), is that it all seems quite ran down, full of inequality and social problems, and lacking soul, mainly from being so consumerist. And although I would concievebly earn a lot more working over there, the total cost of living would probably more than make up for that increase. Especially considering having kids. My friend who is a US citizen with a well-paying engineering job in the LA area, is considering moving back. The work culture is quite hectic, and the amount of trouble they've been through with child care, insurance issues etc are making them reconsider. Not to mention that the area is super-busy and you spend a large portion of your free time in your car. This obviously doesn't describe the entirety of the United States, but sometimes I wonder if people from the US are aware of living conditions in other western countries. I'm not so sure that the US is coming out on top any longer.

noir_lord 7y ago
I talk to quite a lot of Americans online and many of them really are not aware, as they are programmers they generally earn good (by UK standards very good) money but then you start talking to them about what good health insurance for a family of four costs and suddenly things start to look different. I think in some respects the US has coasted on it's former economic glory - I mean sure Silicon Valley is a mecca for folks like us but then you look at things outside of the those types of Nexuses and its a very different picture. In Europe the UK is often regarded (sometimes appropriately) as US-lite but we are still an ocean away literally and figuratively from them in so many ways. Given a lever between moving our politics closer to Nordic countries or the US I know which way I'd push it, I'll take a more equal fairer society with better outcomes for more people over a decrease in the already tiny chance to be super rich - its not really something I've ever really thought about as an end goal anyway - the increase in freedom would be nice but I can't imagine I'd still work insanely hard for that second billion, I'd probably potter about the world learning about history and art and working on open source.
- flyinglizard 7y ago

kodz4 7y ago

There are simple ways to deal with it. Remove the caps on Indian or other country Visas. The world is quite big.

m0llusk 7y ago

American educated Chinese could help to improve the economy and governance in China which in turn would help with trade and international relations. China coming on line as a platform for professional success with strong internal markets is potentially a very good thing for all global trade partners.