31 ms·
Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests
- monort 7y agoSomewhat related essay from a negative utilitarian about consequences of insects feeling pain: https://reducing-suffering.org/the-importance-of-insect-suffering/ https://reducing-suffering.org/the-importance-of-insect-suff...
- Der_Einzige 7y agoIt's nice to see folks becoming aware of negative utilitarianism.
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago>> “People don’t really think of insects as feeling any kind of pain,” said Associate Professor Neely. “But it’s already been shown in lots of different invertebrate animals that they can sense and avoid dangerous stimuli that we perceive as painful. In non-humans, we call this sense ‘nociception’, the sense that detects potentially harmful stimuli like heat, cold, or physical injury, but for simplicity we can refer to what insects experience as ‘pain’.” I don't understand the insistence of the article to place quotes around the word pain when referring to what insects feel. These are animals that can sense their surroundings and react to stimuli. How else would they be convinced to avoid dangerous situations, than by an unpleasant sensation? In any case, the simplest hypothesis is that all animals can feel pain. The null hypothesis should be the opposite. And it has to be a complex hypothesis that explains why some animals can feel pain while others don't (which is tricky).
- Hendrikto 7y ago> I don't understand the insistence of the article to place quotes around the word pain when referring to what insects feel. These are animals that can sense their surroundings and react to stimuli. How else would they be convinced to avoid dangerous situations, than by an unpleasant sensation? If you build a robot which senses dangerous stimuli and avoids them, does it feel pain? Equating reaction to stimuli with pain is too sinplistic.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y agoI don't see why we have to assume that a robot would feel pain. We can explain its behaviour easily without recourse to pain: we 've programmed it to avoid certain situations that we deem dangerous. On the other hand, I don't see why we have to assume that an animal does not feel pain. Have we designed them? No. Don't we, who are also animals, feel pain? And isn't it reasonable to assume that pain is one mechanism by which we learn to avoid dangerous situations? Yes. So, no good reasons to assume animals don't feel pain. Animals don't need to not feel pain just because robots don't need to feel pain.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoIndeed, I think the support for insects feeling pain probably extends to saying cars with accident avoidance feel pain. That is to say, I'm not convinced: pain is a perceptual result.
- Retric 7y agoCars with accident avoidance don’t learn to avoid things after experiencing them. For entities that do, pain seems like an obvious term.
- derangedHorse 7y agoWhat people on this thread are trying to say is that things like cars and robots are created and seemingly understood by us humans. We took inanimate objects and pieced them together using principals we've learned from observation of these inanimate objects. Insects on the other hand are what we've scientifically classified as biological things. Creatures that share some of the same biological qualities we have. Unfortunately, humans don't understand all parts of their own biology to even recognize how similar another living thing is. What I'm saying is that if pain is a perceptual result, we have no way of saying insects cannot perceive it the same way we do. All we know is that they have brains, like most other biological creatures, and that the base assumption should be that they do have pain. Take any other creature like a dog. Why would a dog feel pain? Their brain's may be more complex than something like an ant, but who's to say the rise in brain complexity has brought about the emergence of pain? Humans know too little about the world but a lot of people insist on taking the opinion most convenient to them. If they don't have to think about the fact that they inflict pain on insects, they can keep killing them in a variety of ways without any moral apprehension in the slightest.
- rv-de 7y ago> In any case, the simplest hypothesis is that all animals can feel pain. The null hypothesis should be the opposite. Following the interpretation that "The null hypothesis is generally assumed to be true until evidence indicates otherwise." I'd argue for H° being that all living beings feel pain until evidence indicates otherwise. That approach wouldn't be very economical though which is why do the opposite.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y agoThe argument, then, would be whether a being can or does experience suffering, in the emotional sense, as a result of the pain. Is it reasonable to assume a bacteria has the same internal emotion responses to sensation?
- rv-de 7y agoI don't know.
- losvedir 7y agoI dunno, do trees feel pain? They react to stimuli. Do you feel pain when you're unconscious? People react to stimuli when they're asleep, in a coma, braindead...
- merpnderp 7y agoBecause pain implies suffering. If an insect can suffer as mammals can, that would have huge ethical implications.
- hackinthebochs 7y ago>I don't understand the insistence of the article to place quotes around the word pain when referring to what insects feel. Because they're acknowledging that they didn't actually establish that they feel pain in the sense of a conscious experience of suffering.
- pessimizer 7y agoMainstream psychology stays in an eternal mystical stage that speculates on possible inner states (and their self-reporting) rather than on observation. We can't really call it pain unless we can be absolutely sure that it's exactly what I feel when I say I'm in pain. We will ignore that under that definition, I can't be sure that my twin sibling feels pain. We will paper that over with an innuendo that things that look the most like me are most likely to feel pain as I do, and we will extend the definition of "me" to all potential scientists (humans) as a concession to abstraction and out of professional courtesy.
- Dylan16807 7y ago> How else would they be convinced to avoid dangerous situations, than by an unpleasant sensation? Moderate heat and cold, certain textures, a feeling of resistance against my movements... I react to many kinds of potentially-harmful stimuli that aren't pain. Unpleasantness is not a synonym for pain.
- nabla9 7y agoInfant surgery without anesthesia was common still in the mid 80's https://www.nytimes.com/1987/12/17/opinion/l-why-infant-surgery-without-anesthesia-went-unchallenged-832387.html https://www.nytimes.com/1987/12/17/opinion/l-why-infant-surg... > surveys of medical professionals indicate that as recently as 1986 infants as old as 15 months were receiving no anesthesia during surgery at most American hospitals. It's unknown where the consciousness starts (the hard problem sense) is but it's not unreasonable to assume that sentience (ability to feel pain and pleasure and experience subjectively) and ability to suffer that comes with it happens long before the ability to form long term memories, object permanence, or other any other cognitive abilities.
- rl3 7y agoWell, that's terrifying. Here's a 2017 article on the history of it: https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/07/28/when-babies-felt-pain/Lhk2OKonfR4m3TaNjJWV7M/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/07/28/when-babies-fel...
- simcop2387 7y agoAs terrifying as it is, I wonder if a large part of it was because anesthesia on infants is a lot more dangerous because of the low body weight and unknown metabolism. That could lead to a lot of complications, so if there was reason to believe that it wouldn't otherwise impact the infant (no long term memory) it could be more ethical and safer to not do so. That said I'd assume they've solved those problems now if they're using it.
- spodek 7y ago> > surveys of medical professionals indicate that as recently as 1986 infants as old as 15 months were receiving no anesthesia during surgery at most American hospitals. From a quick search: "Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do." From https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201...
- rv-de 7y ago
- nefitty 7y agoWell, this makes being faithful to my ethical commitments a little more complicated.
- jerkstate 7y agoto complicate things further, mosquitos and ticks have been shown to feel really, really guilty about drinking your blood.
- gwbas1c 7y ago(I hope that's a joke!)
- rolltiide 7y agospot on analysis because we are going to kill their whole species for it
- strictnein 7y agoThat and the whole spreading of disease that kills a million people a year and harms hundreds of millions more.
- meruru 7y agoI don't think the mosquitoes realize they can kill people.
- jammygit 7y agoThe spider glue traps in my basement are harder to feel good about now
- the_pwner224 7y agoThis morning I spent 20 minutes trying to hunt down a spider near my desk at home. I didn't want to clear all the wires and papers and hardware on the desk, and the spider used those to juke around me and my big napkin. Eventually I left and surfed the net on my phone; when I came back an hour later it was nowhere to be seen. But I was absolutely prepared to murder it the moment I got a chance. On the other hand, I've been dabbling with hydroponics. Most suggestions say to plant 2-3 seeds per growing block, so that you are protected against the risk of seeds not sprouting. If multiple seeds sprout, you just snip the tiny seedlings and leave the biggest, hardiest one to grow. A few days ago I killed 3 small seedlings and felt incredibly guilty. About a third of the way to crying over it. Next time I will only plant one seed per spot, even though that means I will get average plants instead of big ones, and it will take longer to replant seeds that don't sprout. The feeling of killing those beautiful young plants was just too much to bear. On the other hand I have never felt bad for the millions of plants that have died to feed me. Nature is a dog-eat-dog world. Ultimately we've got to kill to survive and to have a livable habitat. I had seen the spider I was hunting this morning walking around my window a few times over the last few weeks, but I left it alone until it bothered me. Sure, it's sad to kill another living being, but spiders are much less conscious than us and we've got to eventually rationalize the fact that a human is worth thousands of plants and spiders and bugs (if not, then the only logical action would be to commit suicide, unless you dedicated your life to saving plants and spiders and bugs). Even if you don't kill them directly, you do so indirectly by participating in our modern economy. Tldr it sucks, too bad :(
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoIs this a surprise? Dogs and cats, being injured, show that they feel it and are sensitive to others touching where they hurt. Is it really that 'weird' to think that beings other than mammals would have this?
- toinetoine 7y agoInsects are mammals?
- dang 7y ago"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- viraptor 7y agoYes. Complex behaviour and memory, ability to execute complicated tasks, and many other features are usually more common in complex/large organisms. It may not be surprising, but it's certainly non-obvious why insects would have persistent pain after injury - especially if it prevents them from effectively getting on with other tasks after the initial injury source / danger passes.
- Mirioron 7y agoOn the other hand, you could say the same thing about feeling pain in humans. Once the danger/injury source passes then being in pain is not good, particularly chronic pain that actually inhibits the person. We still have that though.
- viraptor 7y agoI could speculate at least 2 reasons for persistent pain. Before medicine, if you broke a limb, it was likely not as functional / strong as before. Long term pain is probably a good reminder to be careful about it. Also since we can form complex relations in memory, it's potentially useful as "remember how you thought you could do this thing? well, you couldn't, so don't try it again." I think for people the equation is a bit different. We care about individuals in general and have limited number of kids. That's not the case for ants for example which seem quite replaceable / not able to recognise individuals (or even if they're alive).
- chrisco255 7y agoDon't tell the vegans. They'll starve to death.
- dang 7y ago"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- xenonite 7y agoTLDR: They damaged a nerve in one leg of the drosophila fly. The injury was then allowed to fully heal. After the injury healed, they found the fly’s other legs had become hypersensitive through loss of the pain inhibitors (GABA).
- zaroth 7y agoI believe they cut off a leg. I don't really get the part where they say they "allowed it to fully heal". [1] Maybe that was a different experiment in the same paper? [1] - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_JUvnmUwAAj7Sa.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_JUvnmUwAAj7Sa.jpg:large
- xenonite 7y agoWell the text I posted was from the journalistic article. The scientific paper indeed says they let the animal recover from the amputated leg. However, as you say, I now agree that it is not clear what they mean with “recovery”. > We amputated the right middle leg of wild-type Canton S flies, allowed the animals to recover, and then evaluated escape responses at different temperatures. While intact animals displayed minimal escape attempts when exposed to a 38°C surface, after amputation, flies showed significantly more escape behaviors.
- ambrop7 7y agoWondering what's genetic about this experiment.
- jmpman 7y agoSet your bug-a-salt to kill, not stun.
- blodovnik 7y agoWhy wouldn't they feel pain? It's such a superior attitude to even consider that only humans could feel pain. It's also obvious that any complex organism feels pain... It the most basic evolutionary protection mechanism. Anything that didn't feel pain would soon be evolved out.
- red75prime 7y agoUsing the word "pain" as such, you conflate behavior related to negative stimuli, nociceptors' signals processing, and subjective feelings. Only the first one can drive evolution.
- TeMPOraL 7y agoI think there's confusion of terms. It's obvious that a lot of living things can feel "pain", as in stimuli and response; it's less obvious which living things are capable of experiencing suffering, and it's even less obvious to which point we can (or should) reasonably care - e.g. it's ridiculously hard (bordering on impossible) to live a life in which you don't hurt insects.
- godelski 7y agoNo one is saying only humans. Clearly dogs feel pain. The question is about a nervous system and response. Defining pain is difficult, just as defining life.
- fiblye 7y agoYou'd think this, but no, it's very recent that people accepted animals feel actual pain. I mean, even now there are people saying that sure, crustaceans get hurt and respond negatively to harmful stimulus, but it's not really pain because their nervous system is different or they lack some specific body component or don't respond to one specific test that's designed such that only mammals can pass. And to risk sounding crazy, people didn't believe babies felt pain. Only within the past few decades did humanity realize the obvious fact that, no shit, of course babies feel pain. [1] [1]: https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/07/28/when-babies-felt-pain/Lhk2OKonfR4m3TaNjJWV7M/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/07/28/when-babies-fel...
- whatshisface 7y agoDoes my computer feel pain when I decrement %eax?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- z3phyr 7y agoThe computer is a part of you, and you should feel all the pain for trying to access out of bound memory
- aasasd 7y agoThanks to cheap copying and the internet, developers can now ship that pain to any number of users instead of keeping it to themselves.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lone_haxx0r 7y agoIf the computer is running a complex algorithm that tries to keep the value of %eax as high a possible, then I think it would feel pain if you decremented that value.
- saagarjha 7y agoIs reinforcement learning just hurting the computer until it does what we want it to do?
- root_axis 7y agoWhy would it? A computer has no nervous system or self preservation biology that would make use of pain signals.
- gupe 7y agoI wonder if one could make a case for having to be more humane in insect farming? Current practices include steaming and crushing insects to death. (The Economist | Grub’s up https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2019/07/06/beetles-and-flies-are-becoming-part-of-the-agricultural-food-chain?frsc=dg%7Ce https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2019/07/06/...)
- easytiger 7y agoWhat about every motor vehicle, horse and cart journey ever taken killing insects is that inhumane? Those have killed trillions of insects.
- kieukkieuk 7y agoProbably still orders of magnitude less than the number that would be killed in insectivorous agriculture.
- easytiger 7y agoDid you make an account to stick up for insect rights?
- DKnoll 7y agoThere are 'humane' electric shock machines available for crabs. They supposedly cause instant painless death. Obviously the size would make it impossible to use the same machine but maybe something similar. http://www.polar-systems.co.uk/industries-applications/seafood-shellfish/crabs/ http://www.polar-systems.co.uk/industries-applications/seafo...
- SargeZT 7y agoJust spitballing here, but two plates with a significant high voltage charge difference lowered to the level of the insects would seem to fit the bill.
- linnaeus 7y ago
- roflchoppa 7y agograndma always said if your gonna kill them dont let them suffer.
- deftnerd 7y agoAll the comments discussing the moral implications of harming insects are focusing on the wrong part of how useful this information is. As the link says, this research indicates that we can use insects to do basic research on Neuropathic pain. Insects, being easy and fast to breed, and easy to manage in large quantities, makes this especially useful for research. Now they can try all sorts of methods of tackling the problem, from drugs to gene therapy. It's not, of course, proof that successes will translate to mammal or human models, but it's an excellent way to do some initial concept filtering.
- devoply 7y agoNice going there bug Dr. Mengele.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- kranner 7y agoWhy are the moral implications 'the wrong part'? If we found a species of aliens that clearly suffered like us but bred as fast as insects and were as easy to manage, would the moral implications of experimenting on them still be irrelevant compared to the utility of experimenting on them?
- scotty79 7y agoBecause they didn't prove that insects expeirience pain as people understand it. They just proven that expeiriencing injury sensitizes an insect. Article tries to balance between biting the audience with insect pain but then trying to not be completely false calls it 'pain' and nociception which is the only scientifically accurate term for what is observed.
- kranner 7y agoGP seemed to say it doesn't matter whether they experience pain or not because the convenience of experimenting on them outweighs any suffering they may undergo. That's not specific to this experiment.
- kbos87 7y agoDuh. This feels like a topic that the scientific community has a bizarre and self serving view of. There’s no reason to think insects don’t feel pain, which is a basic evolutionary mechanism. So why the need to scrutinize the topic? Because of the need to defend a long line of justifications made throughout the decades as to why humans should be able to treat other beings poorly and still consider ourselves “moral”.
- gexla 7y agoSeems like there could be a mythical story or similar here. Hero asks the gods for gift of healing. Gods grant the gift along with pain so that we know when we are injured (and of course, in need of the gift.) No gift from the gods comes free. I'll be sure to be more careful with my insect friends. And I'll be more vigilant in compassionate killing.
- chewxy 7y agoreminds me of the story of Melissa the Bee.
- dotancohen 7y agoThe name "Melissa" actually means "bee" in Greek.
- jobigoud 7y agoThis would be a sick joke from the God, because as the article imply, they still feel the pain after healing. It's worse than we have it.
- DanBC 7y agoLots of people with long term pain have healed but still feel pain.
- jacobush 7y agoI didn't realise the impact until I remembered how common circumcision is in the US.
- xvector 7y agoIt’s ridiculous. This sort of mutilation should be flat out illegal. It’s physical child abuse, plain and simple.
- bsanr2 7y ago"I understand that this procedure will remove healthy and functioning tissue from my son's penis, and involves similar risk as other prophylactic or cosmetic surgeries, including infection, disfigurement, and death. I understand that the procedure may be performed without anaesthesia at the doctor's discretion. I understand that the doctor has recommended my son undergo circumcision because studies have shown a reduction in the risk for serious diseases in circumcised men; or else, that I have requested a circumcision be performed in observation of a deep and abiding religious or cultural belief which I reasonably believe my son will share when he would have been of age to consent himself." Parents should have to sign a statement like this before it's performed. It should no longer be the default, and parents should understand that they don't have to be railroaded into the decision.
- jacobush 7y agoHm, what is unreasonable about this comment?
- stkdump 7y ago> the doctor has recommended my son undergo circumcision because studies have shown a reduction in the risk for serious diseases in circumcised men Source? Especially that this risk reduction outweighs the risks of the procedure is not proven as far as I know.
- deogeo 7y ago
- derangedHorse 7y agoI once read something on Reddit that imagined how the world would be like if ants could make audible noise in response to being touched or killed. I feel like that definitely add a new perspective to how we see insects
- mc32 7y agoIt looks like if this is extrapolated into our understanding of pain then using diatomaceous earth (DE) as non toxic pest control would imply quite some discomfort by insects as it acts mechanically as well as a desiccant. But on the other hand insects are unlikely to evolve around a mechanical opponent.
- bhouston 7y agoWell, I think evolution has never met something it can not overcome.... I think the point of the non toxic chemical approach is more about human health, or being organic...
- mc32 7y agoTrue but it would take insects away from being insects and it would take much longer to evolve than it takes to evolve against chemical agents.
- new_guy 7y agoThis makes me feel even more terrible about burning spiders to death with a magnifying glass when I was a kid.
- dontbenebby 7y agoI also am feeling quite guilty reading this. I think every kid in the midwest pulled a leg off a daddy long legs[1] at some point. They would keep moving afterwards, and to a kid this was fascinating (and reinforced the belief they were not like animals and could not feel pain.) Regardless, now that I'm older I think most living things have a purpose and try not to bother anything that doesn't bother me, but yes, reading this I feel guilty :( [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcidae https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholcidae
- mikelevins 7y agoI never pulled legs off arthropods, nor did I ever use magnifying glasses to burn them. I did witness other children doing these things, and it always upset me intensely. I'm probably an outlier. My mother tells me that from the time I could walk I captured bugs in the house and carried them outside to prevent them being killed. I've continued the habit of rescuing animals from bad situations into adulthood and rapidly-oncoming old age. Once I caught a hummingbird in an Apple building in Cupertino and let it go outside. It was a beautiful iridescent green and so light that I couldn't feel its weight in my hand.
- stallmanite 7y agoYou’re not alone. I never tortured any insects or animals as a child and it weirds me the fuck out that that is apparently considered normal behavior. I haven’t seen signs of this in my own kids but then again I’ve taught them explicitly that harming sentient beings is wrong.
- mikelevins 7y agoI think it's possible that we might be the weird ones. In the environment that our distant ancestors inhabited, squeamishness about harming animals might have been a significant disadvantage. Or maybe not. Joseph Campbell claimed that a common feature of tribal mythology is ceremonial apologies and restitutions to animal spirits to make restitution for the need to kill them.
- Bob995 7y agoCan dead insects feel pain? Also, who the f is flagging my every post and downwoting me to the point of shadow ban?
- iambateman 7y agoYou’re not shadow banned on my end. HN rewards substantive comments.
- dang 7y agoUsers are flagging your comments because they haven't been substantive. Would you mind reading the site guidelines and fixing that? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mrhappyunhappy 7y agoAs a kid I would rip limbs off insects one by one and watch them suffer. As an adult I carefully capture them inside and release outside. With all the insect die offs and all, little critters who stroll into my place get a 2nd chance. Unless they are mosquitoes. Those suckers get a quick death.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y agoThere are sushi places that serve live shrimp. Imagine being eaten alive and feeling that first bite crushing you in half.
- linnaeus 7y agoRethink Priorities (which focuses on foundational research on neglected causes) has carried out a massive amount of research recently on invertebrate welfare and sentience. Their findings are well worth a read: > Rethink Priorities reviewed the scientific literature relevant to invertebrate sentience. We selected 53 features potentially indicative of the capacity for valenced experience and examined the degree to which these features are found throughout 18 representative biological taxa. These data have been compiled into an easily sortable database that will enable animal welfare organizations to better gauge the probability that (various species of) invertebrates have the capacity for valenced experience. This essay details what we’ve done, why, and the strengths and weaknesses of our approach. https://www.rethinkpriorities.org/blog/2019/6/7/invertebrate-sentience-a-useful-empirical-resource https://www.rethinkpriorities.org/blog/2019/6/7/invertebrate...
- bookofjoe 7y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20430622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20430622
- kja1123 7y agoAnd people say boil the lobsters alive, they don't feel any pain.
- matz1 7y agoWell, even if lobster is proven beyond reasonable of doubt that it feel horrible pain, I'm still going to boil it alive.
- Der_Einzige 7y agoThis just in - Science gives evidence for a Jainist world-view!
- harrywillyvenza 7y agoREAL CURE ON HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS AND HIV some times we just need to give a try to herbal Medicine to see for our self. I am very happy today that i do not listen to what people say if not i would have been a dead man by now. I was infected with HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS in 2014, i went to many hospitals for cure but there was no solution, so I was thinking how can I get a solution out so that my body can be okay. One day I was in the office thinking where I can go to get solution. so a lady walked to me telling me why am I so sad and i open up all to her telling her my problem, she told me that she can help me out, she introduce me to a doctor who uses herbal medication to cure HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS, HIV, HPV and many more disease and she gave me his email, so i mail him. He told me all the things I need to do and send me the herbal medicine through courier delivering service and also give me instructions to take, which I followed properly. Before I knew what is happening after 3 weeks the HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS that was in my body got vanished and blister dried off . I went to the hospital for a test and it was negative. this man is real and he is the solution to herpes virus. so if you are also heart broken and also need a help, you can also email him herbalcure12@gmail.com. (call or whatsapp +2349036036397 according to this great DR he can also cure HIV, ALS,CANCER, COLD SORE AND DIABETES