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African leaders launch landmark 55-nation trade zone

469 points by rexbee 7y ago

dmix 7y ago
> The African Continental Free Trade Agreement (AfCFTA) is a trade agreement which is in force between 24 African Union member states,[1][8][9][10] with the goal of creating a single market followed by free movement and a single-currency union. Wikipedia says they are also looking to create an Africa currency. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Continental_Free_Trade_Agreement?wprov=sfti1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Continental_Free_Tra... It seems the news today is Nigeria (the biggest African country) signing it
- wsc981 7y ago
  Ghadaffi wanted to create an African currency as well [0]. I wonder if the African countries will now succeed. I feel it will definitely be in their interest as it seems currently France has control over African monetary policy [1] which (I feel) could still be considered some form of colonialism. --- [0]: https://medium.com/@evantaxi/6-years-ago-today-the-us-helped-murder-gaddafi-to-stop-the-creation-of-gold-backed-currency-275c2c57509c https://medium.com/@evantaxi/6-years-ago-today-the-us-helped... [1]: https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/news/africa/CFA-franc-France-Africa-controversy/4552902-4950882-r08s4t/index.html https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/news/africa/CFA-franc-Franc...
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > France has control over African monetary policy As your own source notes, France does not control the policy of either of the two separate CFA franc zones, but does have preferential access to resources resulting from the deal setting up the currency arrangement, which is the actual benefit it gets from the deal.
    - licnep 7y ago
      But the CFA being pegged to the euro, means that the countries adopting it can't really do monetary policy, like countries in the eurozone can't
      - JetSpiegel 7y ago
        At least Eurozone countries get a seat at the Eurogroup meetings and the European Council. African CFA users don't even get that.
        Double_a_92 7y ago
        The pegging is not forced on them. It's their own national bank which buys and sells tons of Euros to keep the exchange rate stable.
        vkreso 7y ago
        Exactly, its an autonomous response towards the market. Stability is always preffered in human decision making.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > It's their own national bank which buys and sells tons of Euros to keep the exchange rate stable. The two CFA franc zones have zone central banks (which aren't exclusively controlled by countries in the respective zone, since France has a seat on each), it's not individual national central banks issuing currency or managing the peg.
        seszett 7y ago
        Isn't it very common for a currency to be pegged to another, though? Dozens of currencies are pegged to the EUR or USD, and the two CFA francs are not very different, except that the French treasury is legally bound to guarantee free convertibility between CFA franc and euro, unlike say the US federal reserve with Cuban peso.
        skgoa 7y ago
  - dmix 7y ago
    >> A French official sits on the boards of both central banks, which suggests France retains at least some influence over the decision making process. >> Participation in the currency is voluntary. >> In 2018, Guinea was the largest country of origin [for European migration], followed by Morocco - both former French colonies that don't use the CFA franc. Cote d'Ivoire and Mali are the only countries of origin using the CFA franc that have contributed significantly to migration across the Mediterranean, accounting for 14.4 percent of the total last year. The data in the article runs counter to the complaint against CFA currency, that it causes poverty and therefore migration into Europe. Two of the highest migration sources were ex-CFA members who now use their own currency and only 14.4% came from CFA members. Ending CFA is not some panacea. But that said I very much favour local control of currencies in almost every case as it's one of the great benefits of global capitalism being (voluntarily) given away by these countries. Currencies and market value should be tied closely to local market conditions rather than orchestrated and centrally balanced across a massive network of countries with stark economic differences. Trade deals (plus reducing protectionism and corporate welfare in general) are sufficient to lower barriers to entry into markets which is where it pays off to be liberal and global. Giving up control of your currency should be at most a temporary measure when local state bodies aren't stable enough to have a healthy market. Not some long term arrangement. Inefficiencies of currency conversion are problems that can be solved by healthy financial markets (futures) and technology. Plus there are better examples of bigger economies having a strong monetary influence over smaller countries governments without the whole colonial image that putting a European bureaucrats directly on central banks gives off. The best example is governments taking on massive amounts of foreign loans - which is still in de jour for some reason. For ex: China controls significant amounts of debt across Africa and Latin America which is arguably a stronger lever of influence than France has in Africa.
    - Retric 7y ago
      For nations with lower GDP’s there is significant overhead to using their own currency. It’s often more harmful than beneficial.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
      CFA Franc countries can't leave because 1) France holds their foreign reserves so France holds the upper hand, 2) France actively works against countries trying to leave.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    Whatever happened to Libya? How are they doing now? Who are the people [really] in power there? There was a lot of brouhaha in the mass media about "liberating" them, then nothing.
    - lenkite 7y ago
      It is now a nation in continual civil war between a warring bunch of factions. People are desperate to emigrate from there and a lot of area is controlled by human traffickers. This is the end result of military intervention against Gaddafi. This was a nation that had free health care for the public. A lot of people are dying daily, but you don't hear about it since international journalists are afraid to enter the area - they will be taken as hostages by one group or another immediately. Instead of waging War, international negotiation for the succession of power with guarantees of safety should have been performed painstakingly - with lots of carrots offered, but there are just too many warmongers in the US and even the UN.
      - powerapple 7y ago
        International journalists weren't afraid of reporting other things they don't have access of though.
        Symbiote 7y ago
        There's an article on Libya every 2-4 days in the Guardian. Most are about the migrant crisis, but the rest are about the ongoing war. https://www.theguardian.com/world/libya https://www.theguardian.com/world/libya
      - notahacker 7y ago
        When one faction rules out negotiating any outcome that doesn't involve Gadaffi's removal (and doesn't have much unity beyond that) and the other faction is Gadaffi and his loyalists that don't want to move, the chances of negotiating a peaceful transition were always going to be slim. Revolutions often don't have happy endings. Libya had free healthcare, but it also was also the fiefdom of a dictator who said that those who didn't love him didn't deserve to live. Not every violent conflict has to be the fault of the US and the UN, and the argument they ought to have intervened more to stabilise the country afterwards is at least as plausible as the argument that they intervened too much. (The conspiracy theory that Western intervention had something to do with Gadaffi's gold dinar idea doesn't have much to rest on either. Round about the time Gadaffi was talking up one of the oldest ideas in Islam as part of his vision for Africa and not getting anywhere even when he was the African Union president, a Malaysian state actually introduced one and was roundly ignored, even by the Malaysian government.)
  - piokoch 7y ago
    We will see. Right now when Spain buys oil from Norway (EU member and European Economic Area member) they (have to?) use US Dollars, which is insanity from the perspective of both countries. Ghadaffi wanted to trade oil for Euros and we all know how it end up.
    - alex_duf 7y ago
      I'm not sure if you're referring to Gaddafi's death, but there's strong suspicion he's dead because he talked a bit too loudly about financing the campaign of Nicolas Sarkozy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/nicolas-sarkozy-police-custody-french-president-campaign-funding-libya https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/nicolas-sarkoz...
      - tim333 7y ago
        He did a lot of things to piss off a lot of people. It's hard to pick out one particular one.
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      >Right now when Spain buys oil from Norway (EU member and European Economic Area member) they (have to?) use US Dollars, which is insanity from the perspective of both countries. Instead of converting from Krone to Euros and vice versa, you convert into the largest, most stable, most liquid currency on the planet. What is insane? >Ghadaffi wanted to trade oil for Euros and we all know how it end up. Ah yes, Ghadaffi, Sadam Hussein...good men overthrown because they wanted to "trade oil for Euros". Wait; why couldn't they again? What, precisely was stopping them from dealing in Euro, besides the seller or buyer of oil demanding to be use USD? Right, nothing. The idea that the US forces people to trade in USD as opposed to it working out that way because it's a stable currency of a powerful nation is a fallacy that won't die. Just like within the country, you are free to trade in whatever the hell currency you want...if you can find a willing counter-party.
      - poiuyt098 7y ago
        > Wait; why couldn't they again? Due to getting hanged, shot, or stabbed, probably.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    They won't and probably they never will on their own. The west still controls the most powerful entities in Africa and also the Chinese are pushing forward with their "belt and road" strategy.
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    I'm glad to see this mentioned. Ghadaffi had big plans for uniting Africa, which would have been horrible for the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries. I've always felt that was the real reason the he was ousted. Other national leaders, both in and outside Africa, have done far worse than him yet have never been invaded.
    - skgoa 7y ago
      > which would have been horrible for the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries. For european corporations and shareholders, that is. It would probably be better for the majority of people, because higher stabilityand prosperity in Africa will result in fewer refugees, which results in fewer issues with rightwing nutjobs.
    - growtofill 7y ago
      Given that decolonization ended more than 40 years ago, "the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries" are either dead or retired. How is African countries reaching an agreement would be horrible to anyone, including them?
      - jonahrd 7y ago
        I believe dotancohen is referring to other forms of colonialism that have existed since decolonization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
      - dangerface 7y ago
        > "the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries" are either dead or retired. Thats not how political dynasties work.
      - alluro2 7y ago
        The notion of individuals being responsible for exploiting Africa and them being dead meaning the exploitation no longer exists is like saying USA ceased to exist when founding fathers passed away. Newer history of Africa is almost exclusively defined by consequences of external manipulation, driven by financial interests. In general, you can look up the definition of "neocolonialism".
  - eaurouge 7y ago
    Please see notahacker’s comment below for some much needed clarity in this thread. Gaddafi had become a laughingstock on the continent well before Arab Spring. His grand vision was an Africa with him as king. There was zero chance that he would have been able to build a coalition around his currency.
- judge2020 7y ago
  With the threat of a US company like Facebook coming in and taking over their economy, I can see why.
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    Yeah, I'd bet on that whole FB thing to come to a screeching halt pretty soon. The Africans have been smitten by the allure of the Chinese protectionist model. One of the biggest mistakes I saw when I was in energy was how we were not providing Africa with a sufficiently attractive alternative model. All the Africans were about was, basically, "Money talks and BS walks." And the Chinese system just looks so attractive because of all the money, and how many poor people they've lifted, and yada yada yada. Ever try to compete with a dream? And it's good for people to have dreams. Don't misunderstand me. I think we in the West need to offer Africa an equally attractive dream. Because right now all we've been slogging the past 60 or 70 years has been "democracy will make your life better". We shouldn't be too surprised that they are starting to run off the reservation.
    - jackfoxy 7y ago
      How about offering them the dream of the rule of law? Arbitrary enforcement of capricious legal codes is the biggest hurdle keeping the people, and hence the economies, of these countries down.
      - bilbo0s 7y ago
        Rule of law is another one though that no one really has. The best you can say is that there is a spectrum. And on that spectrum you have a place like, say, Norway, where only a very few people will get preferential treatment. And on the other end you have places like EG, where arbitrary treatment is essentially enshrined in law in the personage of the head élite. You could argue we don't even have rule of law in the US ourselves, since we definitely live in a place where laws will be enforced against some but not others. At least we have the democracy we've been trying to sell them on. So in the case of slinging democracy, regardless of what you think of the health of our own democracy, we're able to give a message consistent with deed.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  After the disaster of the Euro, it's good to know most of these declarations mean about as much as a "Let's do lunch!" in Hollywood.
  - MichaelApproved 7y ago
    What disaster of the Euro?
    - omegaworks 7y ago
      Greece forced to swallow austerity, German economic domination of the continent, resurgence of right-wing nationalism.
      - FullMetalBitch 7y ago
        Resurgente of right wing nationalism? In Spain it's been alive before they even joined the European Union with regional nationalism (Catalonia nationalism has been always mostly right wing). And besides, during the crash the major resurgence was in the left, extreme-left. Spain, Portugal and Greece's crash were going to happen with or without Euro, the only thing problem is how the Euro afected their recovery. I can tell you Spain hasn't recovered, and won't be, they are still managed by idiots.
        barry-cotter 7y ago
        > Resurgente of right wing nationalism? In Spain it's been alive before they even joined the European Union with regional nationalism (Catalonia nationalism has been always mostly right wing). Up until recently with the rise of Vox Spain was the only major Western European country without a far right party. Catalan nationalism is marked by its close association with anarchism, syndicalism and willingness to accept any immigrant who’ll speak Catalan and join the fight against the Castilians so on that level at the least it’s not exactly right wing. > And besides, during the crash the major resurgence was in the left, extreme-left. Again, Vox. > Spain, Portugal and Greece's crash were going to happen with or without Euro, the only thing problem is how the Euro afected their recovery. That makes joining the Euro, if not a disaster, a mistake.
- stevekemp 7y ago
  Yup, two days ago the BBC had a bit of coverage on that - as you say it'll be Nigerian-led https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-48882030 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-48882030
- niccolop 7y ago
  And their closest trading neighbor Benin.
- tim333 7y ago
  Creating a single currency in Europe without political union didn't go so well leading to unnecessary suffering in Greece and like countries.
- jcslzr 7y ago
  currency? why? just use BTC
jedberg 7y ago
Recently someone put forward the theory that now that globalism is dead, there would instead be multiple competing factions with which countries would align. They proposed that the factions would be: The USA, the EU, and China. Looks like we may now need to add the AU to the list.
- barberousse 7y ago
  China has a lot of power in a few African countries
- joyjoyjoy 7y ago
  "Looks like we may now need to add the AU to the list. " Honestly, I doubt it. The more interesting question is: Who is Russia going to align with? No country can rule the world that does not rule Russia, the heartland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_Hist... PS: Thanks for downvoting. Please show that you are not familiar with major concepts that shaped many of the last conflicts we have seen. Take this as a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    The idea that the geopolitics of the world in 1904 are the same as that of 2019 is silly. It's quite clear that the US is no longer an "outlying island" on the world stage.
    - joyjoyjoy 7y ago
      Right. So why the obsession with Russia? In this book? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard Do you know who Zbigniew Brzezinski is? You comment proves a total lack of any knowledge in geo politics.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
joyjoyjoy 7y ago
Congrats. If I may post a GERMAN link from the same source that sounds very pessimistic: https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/14-plaene-in-44-jahren-afrikas-zukunftsvision-mehr-als-freihandel_id_10897130.html https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/14-plaene-in-44-jahren-...
joyjoyjoy 7y ago
"Wikipedia says they are also looking to create an Africa currency." And huge railways. And African Passports. A lot of this is sweet talk. Africa is a very corrupt and tribal continent. I wish them luck. PS: Why the downvote? Looks up the corruption index, see where the African countries are. They are tribal societies, always thinking in "tribal" ways. I am also not a big fan of illegal immigration from this countries to Europe. I don't care what skin color, sex, ethnic background or whatever someone skilled has who comes to Europe or the US and believes in the open society. Most people coming from these non integrating gap countries want a better life but do not believe in an open society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1546/thomas-barnett-iraq-war-primer/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1546/thomas-barnett-i...
- danharaj 7y ago
  Because you sound like a fool with a point to push talking about a continent they know little about.
nemo44x 7y ago
Now is the time to put pressure on China with regards to human rights and trade. With this organization this African Union has the potential to open a huge market of labor and consumers with ultra high growth potential. This can be a huge win for classical liberalism.
- nneonneo 7y ago
  This African Union (AU?) is likely going to be quite friendly with China given Chinese investment in the area, so I doubt they'll be the ones to put pressure on China.
  - klipt 7y ago
    The African Union (a political organization not centered around free trade) has existed for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union This African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) is just one of the AU's recent initiatives.
- ailideex 7y ago
  African here, it won't be a huge win for classical liberalism. It will be more than the sum of it's parts but not in any way that is positive.
aaron695 7y ago
It's just an extension to the current free trade zone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Free_Trade_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Free_Trade_Zone
- Jeff_Brown 7y ago
  Indeed -- can anybody provide more details on the agreement? The only policy detail the article lists is that the deal eliminates "most tariffs". Is that the entirety of the project? Are the goods for which tariffs remain critical ones like oil, minerals or food? How is "most tariffs" even measured --as classes of goods? trade volume in dollars?
- namenotrequired 7y ago
  I guess not, unless Eritrea is leaving the free zone at the same time.
Alex3917 7y ago
Much like when the EU was created, this news is apparently being almost completely buried by the U.S. media.
- bluejekyll 7y ago
  Don’t apply malice where it can be explained by most Americans not paying attention to anything outside the US.
  - pm90 7y ago
    A more generous interpretation is the Orange Orangutan has managed to capture the attention of the entire American nation on a 24 hour basis with his antics.
    - 0815test 7y ago
      Hey, let's not get orangutans into this. They're pretty chill and tolerant, not really known for their antics-- Maher should apologize to them, since he was so unfair as to suggest that Trump might share any commonality with such remarkably peaceful and nature-loving creatures!
    - dang 7y ago
      Please keep partisan flamewar other places than on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    And it's not hugely different than Europeans. I mean, when I lived there how many told me that Tasmania wasn't a part of Australia or they were downright shocked that Christmas is in summer like they've never heard that before. You don't even need to follow anything to have a clue about that.
- noelsusman 7y ago
  It was on the front page of NYT's International section when it was announced three months ago. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/world/africa/trade-nigeria-south-africa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/world/africa/trade-nigeri...
cy6erlion 7y ago
"History teaches us that unity is strength, and cautions us to submerge and overcome our differences in the quest for common goals, to strive, with all our combined strength, for the path to true African brotherhood and unity.” _ Haile Selassie
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  People who preach unity are people who wish to consolidate power, because they are the same thing. Unity tells you nothing about what principles you are to unite under.
  - CameronNemo 7y ago
    While we are here... https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/02/04/the-romantic-rewriting-of-haile-selassies-legacy-must-stop/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/02/04/the-romantic-...
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    People who preach disunity have a pretty solid record in trying to consolidate power as well. Divide Et Impera.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      Which is why it can make sense to have a common defense even if you're otherwise independently governed.
Mengkudulangsat 7y ago
Wow. This is a great boon for their capital markets. I wonder if we'll see a Wall Street / London / Singapore of Africa soon! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX0ozxrZlEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX0ozxrZlEQ
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Realistically it’s probably London. You can fly from Cape Town in 12 hours and they already have the expertise and trust. If it’s an African city Lagos or Johannesburg.
  - Mengkudulangsat 7y ago
    You can say that about Tokyo in the 1980s, but Singapore pulled through.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      In Tokyo in the 80s, and probably now, the median financial professional could not work in English, and that’s probably still true now. Tokyo has an enormous and liquid financial market but Japanese is not a regional language, never mind a global one. Paris has a better shot at being the go to place for African finance than Tokyo did of being Asia’s.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  One of the best benefits of the EU and Euro was having bond markets in a single currency and reliable set of laws. Getting just to that level of uniformity in an Africa bloc would be wild and do a lot to solve systemic problems amongst various countries and regimes
- tim333 7y ago
  You still need a trustworthy legal system and confidence that the local leaders won't swipe your assets. It'll be a while till Africa can compare with NYC/London/Sing on that front.
EGreg 7y ago
This is what Africa always needed. Large federation or empire. If they had large empires hundreds of years earlier, they’d have large sectors that would speak the same language, stop tribal warfare, invest in the common defense, and lots of that money would go towards science centers and dissemination of information. Instead, other empires ran roughshod over them over the years.
- kingkawn 7y ago
  White empires destroyed millennia of stable political culture in Africa
  - EGreg 7y ago
    It’s fairly amazing ... this post was +4 and then in about a minute became 0 points. So, 5 points cast against it in the span of a minute, about half an hour after it was posted and amassed 4 points. I wonder about the dynamics.
    - krapp 7y ago
      You can't criticize the history of "European" culture or the racist ideology of "European" imperialism here without significant backlash. You can't even refer to "Europeans" except through proxy terms, to avoid triggering people.
      - EGreg 7y ago
        My point also was that it implies collusion.
  - sgt 7y ago
    Are you joking? There was no stable political culture in (sub saharan) Africa to speak of - it was primarily tribal and ad-hoc. Colonialism had indeed some serious disadvantages, but it's also primarily the reason why modern cities with infrastructure and major industries exist in Africa.
electriclove 7y ago
Get organized, improve, build infrastructure (take help from but don't forfeit your land to China).. all great! Single currency? Please don't!! You are giving up control of your monetary policy. It will be another EU.
- kspacewalk 7y ago
  Africa of course already has 3 regional currency unions (West CFA, Central CFA, Common Monetary Area) and I wonder if that would have worked better in Europe as well. Call it an intermediate step if you want, with the united Euro a kind of nice ideal to strive towards, once all EU economies are on the same footing and have well-correlated economic cycles (so basically a long long time in the future).
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Is this even a thing to strive towards? The US doesn’t even haven regional economies in sync.
- tim333 7y ago
  Forfeiting your land isn't good but selling some for a fair price and using the money sensibly can be one of the fastest ways of getting wealthy.
  - electriclove 7y ago
    Selling your port? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    And conversely - as many an African government likes to demonstrate - refusing to honour the title deed after the sale of the land is the best known way to get really poor, really quickly.
luckydata 7y ago
Hope this helps Africa develop its economy in a way that's positive for the people that live there, all of them. Not sold on the idea of a single currency, that hasn't worked so hot for Europe, especially the weaker economies like the mediterranean countries. Aren't they repeating the same mistake Paul Krugman refers to as "original sin of monetary policy"? https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/original-sin-and-the-euro-crisis https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/original-sin-an...
- blueblimp 7y ago
  My first reaction was similar. Why imitate the Euro when that experiment has gone badly?
  - hydrox24 7y ago
    > Why imitate the Euro when that experiment has gone badly? Because the Euro solved a problem that did not exist in the EU. Every nation that joined was able to convert their currency to other EU currencies at reasonably low cost, and because each currency was relatively stable, at a low risk too. Africans do actually have high currency conversion costs, and some of the currencies are risky. To put it in Krugman's terms, the African nations have mostly committed the 'original sin' anyway, and this is a way of making a bad situation better. Italy was free of the original sin and was making a good situation worse by joining the EU.
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      > Italy was free of the original sin and was making a good situation worse by joining the EU. "co-founding the EU" (but nevermind: EU and Eurozone aren't the same)
  - vnorilo 7y ago
    Well, as an individual eurozoner I vastly prefer a single currency and for me personally it certainly reduces the friction of cross-border trade (I both buy stuff and sell services). I understand that many eurozone countries could be helped by currency tools like devaluing, but I'm not sure if anyone can really know how the tradeoffs vs. smoother commerce pan out and conclude authoritatively that the whole thing is a net negative.
Leader2light 7y ago
I wish Africa well, but they are screwed. Huge population boom and not enough infrastructure or resources. Won't end well. Also, most are not educated and pretty low IQ.
jorblumesea 7y ago
I wonder how much China was involved in this. We may never know but this feels like a play they would push. That way, China can form a "TPP of the East" easily without having to negotiate with countries individually. Lock out the West and extract natural resources at their leisure.
Proven 7y ago
Considering how corrupt African governments are, Zim dollar has a good chance of becoming a reserve currency in this union

469 points by rexbee 7y ago

dmix 7y ago

> The African Continental Free Trade Agreement (AfCFTA) is a trade agreement which is in force between 24 African Union member states,[1][8][9][10] with the goal of creating a single market followed by free movement and a single-currency union. Wikipedia says they are also looking to create an Africa currency. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Continental_Free_Trade_Agreement?wprov=sfti1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Continental_Free_Tra... It seems the news today is Nigeria (the biggest African country) signing it

wsc981 7y ago
Ghadaffi wanted to create an African currency as well [0]. I wonder if the African countries will now succeed. I feel it will definitely be in their interest as it seems currently France has control over African monetary policy [1] which (I feel) could still be considered some form of colonialism. --- [0]: https://medium.com/@evantaxi/6-years-ago-today-the-us-helped-murder-gaddafi-to-stop-the-creation-of-gold-backed-currency-275c2c57509c https://medium.com/@evantaxi/6-years-ago-today-the-us-helped... [1]: https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/news/africa/CFA-franc-France-Africa-controversy/4552902-4950882-r08s4t/index.html https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/news/africa/CFA-franc-Franc...
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > France has control over African monetary policy As your own source notes, France does not control the policy of either of the two separate CFA franc zones, but does have preferential access to resources resulting from the deal setting up the currency arrangement, which is the actual benefit it gets from the deal.
  - licnep 7y ago
    But the CFA being pegged to the euro, means that the countries adopting it can't really do monetary policy, like countries in the eurozone can't
    - JetSpiegel 7y ago
      At least Eurozone countries get a seat at the Eurogroup meetings and the European Council. African CFA users don't even get that.
      - Double_a_92 7y ago
        The pegging is not forced on them. It's their own national bank which buys and sells tons of Euros to keep the exchange rate stable.
        vkreso 7y ago
        Exactly, its an autonomous response towards the market. Stability is always preffered in human decision making.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > It's their own national bank which buys and sells tons of Euros to keep the exchange rate stable. The two CFA franc zones have zone central banks (which aren't exclusively controlled by countries in the respective zone, since France has a seat on each), it's not individual national central banks issuing currency or managing the peg.
      - seszett 7y ago
        Isn't it very common for a currency to be pegged to another, though? Dozens of currencies are pegged to the EUR or USD, and the two CFA francs are not very different, except that the French treasury is legally bound to guarantee free convertibility between CFA franc and euro, unlike say the US federal reserve with Cuban peso.
        skgoa 7y ago
- dmix 7y ago
  >> A French official sits on the boards of both central banks, which suggests France retains at least some influence over the decision making process. >> Participation in the currency is voluntary. >> In 2018, Guinea was the largest country of origin [for European migration], followed by Morocco - both former French colonies that don't use the CFA franc. Cote d'Ivoire and Mali are the only countries of origin using the CFA franc that have contributed significantly to migration across the Mediterranean, accounting for 14.4 percent of the total last year. The data in the article runs counter to the complaint against CFA currency, that it causes poverty and therefore migration into Europe. Two of the highest migration sources were ex-CFA members who now use their own currency and only 14.4% came from CFA members. Ending CFA is not some panacea. But that said I very much favour local control of currencies in almost every case as it's one of the great benefits of global capitalism being (voluntarily) given away by these countries. Currencies and market value should be tied closely to local market conditions rather than orchestrated and centrally balanced across a massive network of countries with stark economic differences. Trade deals (plus reducing protectionism and corporate welfare in general) are sufficient to lower barriers to entry into markets which is where it pays off to be liberal and global. Giving up control of your currency should be at most a temporary measure when local state bodies aren't stable enough to have a healthy market. Not some long term arrangement. Inefficiencies of currency conversion are problems that can be solved by healthy financial markets (futures) and technology. Plus there are better examples of bigger economies having a strong monetary influence over smaller countries governments without the whole colonial image that putting a European bureaucrats directly on central banks gives off. The best example is governments taking on massive amounts of foreign loans - which is still in de jour for some reason. For ex: China controls significant amounts of debt across Africa and Latin America which is arguably a stronger lever of influence than France has in Africa.
  - Retric 7y ago
    For nations with lower GDP’s there is significant overhead to using their own currency. It’s often more harmful than beneficial.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
    CFA Franc countries can't leave because 1) France holds their foreign reserves so France holds the upper hand, 2) France actively works against countries trying to leave.
- Razengan 7y ago
  Whatever happened to Libya? How are they doing now? Who are the people [really] in power there? There was a lot of brouhaha in the mass media about "liberating" them, then nothing.
  - lenkite 7y ago
    It is now a nation in continual civil war between a warring bunch of factions. People are desperate to emigrate from there and a lot of area is controlled by human traffickers. This is the end result of military intervention against Gaddafi. This was a nation that had free health care for the public. A lot of people are dying daily, but you don't hear about it since international journalists are afraid to enter the area - they will be taken as hostages by one group or another immediately. Instead of waging War, international negotiation for the succession of power with guarantees of safety should have been performed painstakingly - with lots of carrots offered, but there are just too many warmongers in the US and even the UN.
    - powerapple 7y ago
      International journalists weren't afraid of reporting other things they don't have access of though.
      - Symbiote 7y ago
        There's an article on Libya every 2-4 days in the Guardian. Most are about the migrant crisis, but the rest are about the ongoing war. https://www.theguardian.com/world/libya https://www.theguardian.com/world/libya
    - notahacker 7y ago
      When one faction rules out negotiating any outcome that doesn't involve Gadaffi's removal (and doesn't have much unity beyond that) and the other faction is Gadaffi and his loyalists that don't want to move, the chances of negotiating a peaceful transition were always going to be slim. Revolutions often don't have happy endings. Libya had free healthcare, but it also was also the fiefdom of a dictator who said that those who didn't love him didn't deserve to live. Not every violent conflict has to be the fault of the US and the UN, and the argument they ought to have intervened more to stabilise the country afterwards is at least as plausible as the argument that they intervened too much. (The conspiracy theory that Western intervention had something to do with Gadaffi's gold dinar idea doesn't have much to rest on either. Round about the time Gadaffi was talking up one of the oldest ideas in Islam as part of his vision for Africa and not getting anywhere even when he was the African Union president, a Malaysian state actually introduced one and was roundly ignored, even by the Malaysian government.)
- piokoch 7y ago
  We will see. Right now when Spain buys oil from Norway (EU member and European Economic Area member) they (have to?) use US Dollars, which is insanity from the perspective of both countries. Ghadaffi wanted to trade oil for Euros and we all know how it end up.
  - alex_duf 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you're referring to Gaddafi's death, but there's strong suspicion he's dead because he talked a bit too loudly about financing the campaign of Nicolas Sarkozy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/nicolas-sarkozy-police-custody-french-president-campaign-funding-libya https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/nicolas-sarkoz...
    - tim333 7y ago
      He did a lot of things to piss off a lot of people. It's hard to pick out one particular one.
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    >Right now when Spain buys oil from Norway (EU member and European Economic Area member) they (have to?) use US Dollars, which is insanity from the perspective of both countries. Instead of converting from Krone to Euros and vice versa, you convert into the largest, most stable, most liquid currency on the planet. What is insane? >Ghadaffi wanted to trade oil for Euros and we all know how it end up. Ah yes, Ghadaffi, Sadam Hussein...good men overthrown because they wanted to "trade oil for Euros". Wait; why couldn't they again? What, precisely was stopping them from dealing in Euro, besides the seller or buyer of oil demanding to be use USD? Right, nothing. The idea that the US forces people to trade in USD as opposed to it working out that way because it's a stable currency of a powerful nation is a fallacy that won't die. Just like within the country, you are free to trade in whatever the hell currency you want...if you can find a willing counter-party.
    - poiuyt098 7y ago
      > Wait; why couldn't they again? Due to getting hanged, shot, or stabbed, probably.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  They won't and probably they never will on their own. The west still controls the most powerful entities in Africa and also the Chinese are pushing forward with their "belt and road" strategy.
- dotancohen 7y ago
  I'm glad to see this mentioned. Ghadaffi had big plans for uniting Africa, which would have been horrible for the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries. I've always felt that was the real reason the he was ousted. Other national leaders, both in and outside Africa, have done far worse than him yet have never been invaded.
  - skgoa 7y ago
    > which would have been horrible for the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries. For european corporations and shareholders, that is. It would probably be better for the majority of people, because higher stabilityand prosperity in Africa will result in fewer refugees, which results in fewer issues with rightwing nutjobs.
  - growtofill 7y ago
    Given that decolonization ended more than 40 years ago, "the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries" are either dead or retired. How is African countries reaching an agreement would be horrible to anyone, including them?
    - jonahrd 7y ago
      I believe dotancohen is referring to other forms of colonialism that have existed since decolonization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
    - dangerface 7y ago
      > "the Europeans who have been plundering the continent for centuries" are either dead or retired. Thats not how political dynasties work.
    - alluro2 7y ago
      The notion of individuals being responsible for exploiting Africa and them being dead meaning the exploitation no longer exists is like saying USA ceased to exist when founding fathers passed away. Newer history of Africa is almost exclusively defined by consequences of external manipulation, driven by financial interests. In general, you can look up the definition of "neocolonialism".
- eaurouge 7y ago
  Please see notahacker’s comment below for some much needed clarity in this thread. Gaddafi had become a laughingstock on the continent well before Arab Spring. His grand vision was an Africa with him as king. There was zero chance that he would have been able to build a coalition around his currency.
judge2020 7y ago
With the threat of a US company like Facebook coming in and taking over their economy, I can see why.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Yeah, I'd bet on that whole FB thing to come to a screeching halt pretty soon. The Africans have been smitten by the allure of the Chinese protectionist model. One of the biggest mistakes I saw when I was in energy was how we were not providing Africa with a sufficiently attractive alternative model. All the Africans were about was, basically, "Money talks and BS walks." And the Chinese system just looks so attractive because of all the money, and how many poor people they've lifted, and yada yada yada. Ever try to compete with a dream? And it's good for people to have dreams. Don't misunderstand me. I think we in the West need to offer Africa an equally attractive dream. Because right now all we've been slogging the past 60 or 70 years has been "democracy will make your life better". We shouldn't be too surprised that they are starting to run off the reservation.
  - jackfoxy 7y ago
    How about offering them the dream of the rule of law? Arbitrary enforcement of capricious legal codes is the biggest hurdle keeping the people, and hence the economies, of these countries down.
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      Rule of law is another one though that no one really has. The best you can say is that there is a spectrum. And on that spectrum you have a place like, say, Norway, where only a very few people will get preferential treatment. And on the other end you have places like EG, where arbitrary treatment is essentially enshrined in law in the personage of the head élite. You could argue we don't even have rule of law in the US ourselves, since we definitely live in a place where laws will be enforced against some but not others. At least we have the democracy we've been trying to sell them on. So in the case of slinging democracy, regardless of what you think of the health of our own democracy, we're able to give a message consistent with deed.
BurningFrog 7y ago
After the disaster of the Euro, it's good to know most of these declarations mean about as much as a "Let's do lunch!" in Hollywood.
- MichaelApproved 7y ago
  What disaster of the Euro?
  - omegaworks 7y ago
    Greece forced to swallow austerity, German economic domination of the continent, resurgence of right-wing nationalism.
    - FullMetalBitch 7y ago
      Resurgente of right wing nationalism? In Spain it's been alive before they even joined the European Union with regional nationalism (Catalonia nationalism has been always mostly right wing). And besides, during the crash the major resurgence was in the left, extreme-left. Spain, Portugal and Greece's crash were going to happen with or without Euro, the only thing problem is how the Euro afected their recovery. I can tell you Spain hasn't recovered, and won't be, they are still managed by idiots.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        > Resurgente of right wing nationalism? In Spain it's been alive before they even joined the European Union with regional nationalism (Catalonia nationalism has been always mostly right wing). Up until recently with the rise of Vox Spain was the only major Western European country without a far right party. Catalan nationalism is marked by its close association with anarchism, syndicalism and willingness to accept any immigrant who’ll speak Catalan and join the fight against the Castilians so on that level at the least it’s not exactly right wing. > And besides, during the crash the major resurgence was in the left, extreme-left. Again, Vox. > Spain, Portugal and Greece's crash were going to happen with or without Euro, the only thing problem is how the Euro afected their recovery. That makes joining the Euro, if not a disaster, a mistake.
stevekemp 7y ago
Yup, two days ago the BBC had a bit of coverage on that - as you say it'll be Nigerian-led https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-48882030 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-48882030
niccolop 7y ago
And their closest trading neighbor Benin.
tim333 7y ago
Creating a single currency in Europe without political union didn't go so well leading to unnecessary suffering in Greece and like countries.
jcslzr 7y ago
currency? why? just use BTC

jedberg 7y ago

Recently someone put forward the theory that now that globalism is dead, there would instead be multiple competing factions with which countries would align. They proposed that the factions would be: The USA, the EU, and China. Looks like we may now need to add the AU to the list.

barberousse 7y ago
China has a lot of power in a few African countries
joyjoyjoy 7y ago
"Looks like we may now need to add the AU to the list. " Honestly, I doubt it. The more interesting question is: Who is Russia going to align with? No country can rule the world that does not rule Russia, the heartland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_Hist... PS: Thanks for downvoting. Please show that you are not familiar with major concepts that shaped many of the last conflicts we have seen. Take this as a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  The idea that the geopolitics of the world in 1904 are the same as that of 2019 is silly. It's quite clear that the US is no longer an "outlying island" on the world stage.
  - joyjoyjoy 7y ago
    Right. So why the obsession with Russia? In this book? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard Do you know who Zbigniew Brzezinski is? You comment proves a total lack of any knowledge in geo politics.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago

joyjoyjoy 7y ago

Congrats. If I may post a GERMAN link from the same source that sounds very pessimistic: https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/14-plaene-in-44-jahren-afrikas-zukunftsvision-mehr-als-freihandel_id_10897130.html https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/14-plaene-in-44-jahren-...

joyjoyjoy 7y ago

"Wikipedia says they are also looking to create an Africa currency." And huge railways. And African Passports. A lot of this is sweet talk. Africa is a very corrupt and tribal continent. I wish them luck. PS: Why the downvote? Looks up the corruption index, see where the African countries are. They are tribal societies, always thinking in "tribal" ways. I am also not a big fan of illegal immigration from this countries to Europe. I don't care what skin color, sex, ethnic background or whatever someone skilled has who comes to Europe or the US and believes in the open society. Most people coming from these non integrating gap countries want a better life but do not believe in an open society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1546/thomas-barnett-iraq-war-primer/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1546/thomas-barnett-i...

danharaj 7y ago
Because you sound like a fool with a point to push talking about a continent they know little about.

nemo44x 7y ago

Now is the time to put pressure on China with regards to human rights and trade. With this organization this African Union has the potential to open a huge market of labor and consumers with ultra high growth potential. This can be a huge win for classical liberalism.

nneonneo 7y ago
This African Union (AU?) is likely going to be quite friendly with China given Chinese investment in the area, so I doubt they'll be the ones to put pressure on China.
- klipt 7y ago
  The African Union (a political organization not centered around free trade) has existed for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union This African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) is just one of the AU's recent initiatives.
ailideex 7y ago
African here, it won't be a huge win for classical liberalism. It will be more than the sum of it's parts but not in any way that is positive.

aaron695 7y ago

It's just an extension to the current free trade zone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Free_Trade_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Free_Trade_Zone

Jeff_Brown 7y ago
Indeed -- can anybody provide more details on the agreement? The only policy detail the article lists is that the deal eliminates "most tariffs". Is that the entirety of the project? Are the goods for which tariffs remain critical ones like oil, minerals or food? How is "most tariffs" even measured --as classes of goods? trade volume in dollars?
namenotrequired 7y ago
I guess not, unless Eritrea is leaving the free zone at the same time.

Alex3917 7y ago

Much like when the EU was created, this news is apparently being almost completely buried by the U.S. media.

bluejekyll 7y ago
Don’t apply malice where it can be explained by most Americans not paying attention to anything outside the US.
- pm90 7y ago
  A more generous interpretation is the Orange Orangutan has managed to capture the attention of the entire American nation on a 24 hour basis with his antics.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    Hey, let's not get orangutans into this. They're pretty chill and tolerant, not really known for their antics-- Maher should apologize to them, since he was so unfair as to suggest that Trump might share any commonality with such remarkably peaceful and nature-loving creatures!
  - dang 7y ago
    Please keep partisan flamewar other places than on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  And it's not hugely different than Europeans. I mean, when I lived there how many told me that Tasmania wasn't a part of Australia or they were downright shocked that Christmas is in summer like they've never heard that before. You don't even need to follow anything to have a clue about that.
noelsusman 7y ago
It was on the front page of NYT's International section when it was announced three months ago. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/world/africa/trade-nigeria-south-africa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/world/africa/trade-nigeri...

cy6erlion 7y ago

"History teaches us that unity is strength, and cautions us to submerge and overcome our differences in the quest for common goals, to strive, with all our combined strength, for the path to true African brotherhood and unity.” _ Haile Selassie

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
People who preach unity are people who wish to consolidate power, because they are the same thing. Unity tells you nothing about what principles you are to unite under.
- CameronNemo 7y ago
  While we are here... https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/02/04/the-romantic-rewriting-of-haile-selassies-legacy-must-stop/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/02/04/the-romantic-...
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  People who preach disunity have a pretty solid record in trying to consolidate power as well. Divide Et Impera.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    Which is why it can make sense to have a common defense even if you're otherwise independently governed.

Mengkudulangsat 7y ago

Wow. This is a great boon for their capital markets. I wonder if we'll see a Wall Street / London / Singapore of Africa soon! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX0ozxrZlEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX0ozxrZlEQ

barry-cotter 7y ago
Realistically it’s probably London. You can fly from Cape Town in 12 hours and they already have the expertise and trust. If it’s an African city Lagos or Johannesburg.
- Mengkudulangsat 7y ago
  You can say that about Tokyo in the 1980s, but Singapore pulled through.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    In Tokyo in the 80s, and probably now, the median financial professional could not work in English, and that’s probably still true now. Tokyo has an enormous and liquid financial market but Japanese is not a regional language, never mind a global one. Paris has a better shot at being the go to place for African finance than Tokyo did of being Asia’s.
rolltiide 7y ago
One of the best benefits of the EU and Euro was having bond markets in a single currency and reliable set of laws. Getting just to that level of uniformity in an Africa bloc would be wild and do a lot to solve systemic problems amongst various countries and regimes
tim333 7y ago
You still need a trustworthy legal system and confidence that the local leaders won't swipe your assets. It'll be a while till Africa can compare with NYC/London/Sing on that front.

EGreg 7y ago

This is what Africa always needed. Large federation or empire. If they had large empires hundreds of years earlier, they’d have large sectors that would speak the same language, stop tribal warfare, invest in the common defense, and lots of that money would go towards science centers and dissemination of information. Instead, other empires ran roughshod over them over the years.

kingkawn 7y ago
White empires destroyed millennia of stable political culture in Africa
- EGreg 7y ago
  It’s fairly amazing ... this post was +4 and then in about a minute became 0 points. So, 5 points cast against it in the span of a minute, about half an hour after it was posted and amassed 4 points. I wonder about the dynamics.
  - krapp 7y ago
    You can't criticize the history of "European" culture or the racist ideology of "European" imperialism here without significant backlash. You can't even refer to "Europeans" except through proxy terms, to avoid triggering people.
    - EGreg 7y ago
      My point also was that it implies collusion.
- sgt 7y ago
  Are you joking? There was no stable political culture in (sub saharan) Africa to speak of - it was primarily tribal and ad-hoc. Colonialism had indeed some serious disadvantages, but it's also primarily the reason why modern cities with infrastructure and major industries exist in Africa.

electriclove 7y ago

Get organized, improve, build infrastructure (take help from but don't forfeit your land to China).. all great! Single currency? Please don't!! You are giving up control of your monetary policy. It will be another EU.

kspacewalk 7y ago
Africa of course already has 3 regional currency unions (West CFA, Central CFA, Common Monetary Area) and I wonder if that would have worked better in Europe as well. Call it an intermediate step if you want, with the united Euro a kind of nice ideal to strive towards, once all EU economies are on the same footing and have well-correlated economic cycles (so basically a long long time in the future).
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Is this even a thing to strive towards? The US doesn’t even haven regional economies in sync.
tim333 7y ago
Forfeiting your land isn't good but selling some for a fair price and using the money sensibly can be one of the fastest ways of getting wealthy.
- electriclove 7y ago
  Selling your port? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...
- pinkfoot 7y ago
  And conversely - as many an African government likes to demonstrate - refusing to honour the title deed after the sale of the land is the best known way to get really poor, really quickly.

luckydata 7y ago

Hope this helps Africa develop its economy in a way that's positive for the people that live there, all of them. Not sold on the idea of a single currency, that hasn't worked so hot for Europe, especially the weaker economies like the mediterranean countries. Aren't they repeating the same mistake Paul Krugman refers to as "original sin of monetary policy"? https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/original-sin-and-the-euro-crisis https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/original-sin-an...

blueblimp 7y ago
My first reaction was similar. Why imitate the Euro when that experiment has gone badly?
- hydrox24 7y ago
  > Why imitate the Euro when that experiment has gone badly? Because the Euro solved a problem that did not exist in the EU. Every nation that joined was able to convert their currency to other EU currencies at reasonably low cost, and because each currency was relatively stable, at a low risk too. Africans do actually have high currency conversion costs, and some of the currencies are risky. To put it in Krugman's terms, the African nations have mostly committed the 'original sin' anyway, and this is a way of making a bad situation better. Italy was free of the original sin and was making a good situation worse by joining the EU.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    > Italy was free of the original sin and was making a good situation worse by joining the EU. "co-founding the EU" (but nevermind: EU and Eurozone aren't the same)
- vnorilo 7y ago
  Well, as an individual eurozoner I vastly prefer a single currency and for me personally it certainly reduces the friction of cross-border trade (I both buy stuff and sell services). I understand that many eurozone countries could be helped by currency tools like devaluing, but I'm not sure if anyone can really know how the tradeoffs vs. smoother commerce pan out and conclude authoritatively that the whole thing is a net negative.

Leader2light 7y ago

I wish Africa well, but they are screwed. Huge population boom and not enough infrastructure or resources. Won't end well. Also, most are not educated and pretty low IQ.

jorblumesea 7y ago

I wonder how much China was involved in this. We may never know but this feels like a play they would push. That way, China can form a "TPP of the East" easily without having to negotiate with countries individually. Lock out the West and extract natural resources at their leisure.

Proven 7y ago

Considering how corrupt African governments are, Zim dollar has a good chance of becoming a reserve currency in this union