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Tell HN: Social media strike proposed for July 4-5 by Wikipedia co-founder

• yoz-y 7y ago
  I feel that even if everybody who cared went on strike, the difference in daily visitors would probably be in the error margin. I think most people who really care have already left the centralised social media or scaled it down to the point that a non-strike day is an exception. I do not disagree with the message, but I seriously doubt that this will have any effect.
  • kickscondor 7y ago
    I think there could be some useful purposes for everyone outside of social media: unifying those people, helping them find each other, mobilizing them to take community measures. I think it's safe to say that at this point we're not looking for another social network to replace Facebook or another search engine to replace Google - we need to start finding ways to work decentralized but still come together -this is going to come out sounding silly, but - on the Internet's behalf. This could be good. Stuff like #deletefacebook was interesting, but it didn't help people find alternatives. I like that a 'strike' implies group action together toward some kind of progress.
    • Nextgrid 7y ago
      One big issue is that there’s nothing decentralised that currently exists that can rival the quality & user experience of mainstream social networks, and decentralisation comes with its own problems (I personally think the problem with mainstream social media is its ad-based business model and not centralisation). Mastodon (which seems to be the biggest alternative being proposed) is still a joke, even the name and branding sounds awful IMO. And who in their right mind thought calling a post a “toot” (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/toot https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/toot) was a good idea. Besides the branding, decentralisation comes with its own issues like the lack of network-wide content moderation and agreement on what content is acceptable. There are solutions (more like hacks) around this where instance admins can choose not to federate with instances they don’t like the policies of, but it then causes problems for end-users where they can’t communicate with their peers on those banned instances despite all of them being on Mastodon. Good luck explaining to a non-technical person why they can’t talk to/see the posts of certain people despite them all being on Mastodon, and the solution is to spend time choosing an instance with policies you agree with and making sure your friends are on it or on a similar instance that’s not banned by yours, and then hoping the instances stay online without any kind of funding (there’s also no knowledge of whether they would scale to the size of mainstream social networks). The solution IMO is not Mastodon or any of these fringe social networks. The main problem is the lack of an ethical business model in mainstream social media. The solution would be to vote with your wallets and fund a better Facebook alternative - it could even show the current social networks that there’s profit to be made treating their users with respect and make the situation better for everyone else too.
      • doute 7y ago
        > The solution IMO is not Mastodon or any of these fringe social networks. The main problem is the lack of an ethical business model in mainstream social media. That is certainly a problem and something should be addressed. But I don't think it is the root cause. The real tragedy is the lack of understanding that reality happens between the mainstream and the fringe. Most of the technology we like was created in the second half of the 20th century. We have been standing on the shoulders of giant and eventually the giants got old and were replaced by self-serving large tech companies. But since most people are making money, or get things for free, we don't want to recognize that we are their servants. There is no longer any urgency to create something different, because being different means missing out. The reason you have to go to esoteric solutions when talking about something like decentralization is because the Internet is no longer built for it. From authentication, to networks and even the state of ip addresses is less than great. That you can avoid these problem by going to the fringe likely comes from the idea that hackers still have influence. We think that if something doesn't work it can't be our own fault, it most be some conspiracy or inherent limitation, rather a lack in our own understanding and ability to organize. > Besides the branding, decentralisation comes with its own issues like the lack of network-wide content moderation and agreement on what content is acceptable. Decentralization built on individualism rarely works. Because it leaves the unorganized powerless. It has to be built upon common features used by different cliques were the participants have choice. Maybe most importantly there has to be separation between the platform and the activity.
  • tapanjk 7y ago
    To my mind, what matters here is that there is a viable option for all those who care. This may not shut down the the big social media, and I do not think that is the goal here. What matters is that there are alternatives that let users own (and keep) their content.
  • cryptozeus 7y ago
    You are underestimating the annoyance of social media. People want to quit it but at this point they are too attached. I think this will be big.
    • Kiro 7y ago
      And I'm pretty sure you're overestimating it. The only people I ever hear expressing a desire to quit are inside this tiny tech circle.
  • hadsed 7y ago
    It doesn't have to reach its end game goal immediately. It's an iterative process of slowly gathering people together, showing others that there are at least some people who care, technologists seeing the demand and creating products, rinse and repeat. Until one day you hit the phase transition point and then boom... Change.
• jdoliner 7y ago
  The social media strike, as organized on Hacker News, Twitter, Facebook, etc. I honestly don't think people have much interest in striking these days if they can't post it on social media, but maybe this will have legs. It's a little telling though that this really can't be organized any other way besides social media these days, and I suspect there will be a lot of people throughout those 2 days checking in on social media to see how it's going.
  • kickscondor 7y ago
    This is already happening to some degree - like I wonder what percentage of Twitter messaging is now complaining about Twitter. Yes, this could just generate some small increase in traffic for the day - but that's an acceptable short-term concession if it means the centralized social networks could go away in the long-term.
• quietthrow 7y ago
  This is an awesome idea
• kodz4 7y ago
  This is great. Celebs need to be on boarded more than Geeks. Getting an Obama or Kim Kardashian to show support would have major global impact. A cascade would start.
  • rohan1024 7y ago
    The problem is celebs are perfectly happy with current state of social media. Unless they see problems, they might not get onboard. It's only the people who have been through some mess in there life because of social media know how bad is social media.
    • kodz4 7y ago
      As with the 2008 financial collapse, triggering a cascade requires just finding the weakness in just a few who are ready to burn out.
  • mkbkn 7y ago
    Kim Kardashian's business thrives on "media" and social media. Why would she be on it?
    • kodz4 7y ago
      Cause maybe she is tired of the routine. Has made enough money and is watching the effect its having on kids. There are thousands of reasons, because there are so many different unintended effects social media has.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • leadingthenet 7y ago
        I didn’t think people could be that naive.
      • luckylion 7y ago
        > Cause maybe she is tired of the routine. Has made enough money and is watching the effect its having on kids. Yeah, maybe Zuckerberg is tired of the routine as well and both of them don't want more money and more power. But probably not.
• adamlangsner 7y ago
  I love this. Ironically, a great way to spread the word is via social media.
  • growtofill 7y ago
    That’s the point. Advertise the hazards of smoking in the places where people smoke.
    • murat124 7y ago
      By smoking it.
      • growtofill 7y ago
        Otherwise you are subjective to survivorship bias: if people were silently quitting social media the ones who remain wouldn’t be aware there’s anything wrong with those social media.
        • murat124 7y ago
          I agree but the ones who remain don't care.
    • azangru 7y ago
      Using the smoking analogy, this passage from the article: > We’re going to flex our collective muscles and demand that giant, manipulative corporations give us back control over our data, privacy, and user experience. sounds as if smokers demanded of tobacco companies for two days that they cut the amount of carcinogens in cigarette smoke (and maybe stop putting nicotine in their cigarettes as well) - and then resumed smoking after 2 days. It comes off as weak, pathetic and insincere.
• cheez 7y ago
  https://larrysanger.org/2019/06/declaration-of-digital-independence https://larrysanger.org/2019/06/declaration-of-digital-indep...
• tickerticker 7y ago
  Is HN a form of social media?
  • edejong 7y ago
    Thanks for that question tickerticker. Upvoted you so you get extra status. Let’s see what lsanger might reply later?
  • milkytron 7y ago
    I would think yes.
  • webgoat 7y ago
    I'd say yes, considering that most of the content is random dialogue among other posters. Also the lax policy on acceptable content makes HN look as clickbait as reddit most of the time.
    • MegaButts 7y ago
      > Also the lax policy on acceptable content makes HN look as clickbait as reddit most of the time. You really think HN has a comparable amount of clickbait to reddit?
    • shearskill 7y ago
      Strong disagree on that. Reddit has bots and a massive troll population, neither is present in such a way that affects user experience.
  • saagarjha 7y ago
    Very much so, I think.
  • ArtRichards 7y ago
    TellHNs definetly are.
  • dang 7y ago
    Does that mean we get a day off?
• changoplatanero 7y ago
  This reminds me of the campaign to get people to give up shopping on the day after thanksgiving. Not gonna happen.
  • pishpash 7y ago
    Because of game theory and money is involved and enough people have been coopted.
    • klez 7y ago
      It seems to me all of that applies (in different ways, I would concede) to social media as well.
• bartimus 7y ago
  The only way this is going to move forward is through open standards. Something something webfinger, mail 2.0 and trusted recipients.
• anonytrary 7y ago
  Social media is hard to define so participants are more likely to cheat. Should be an internet strike which is "as simple as" going camping without your phones/computers for 2 days, which honestly would be great practice for a newly decentralized world.
• camdenlock 7y ago
  Eh? There already are decentralized social networks available to use. This doesn’t add up. And as others have pointed out, what networks are eligible for this forced decentralization process? Should some networks be allowed to be centralized? Which ones, if so? Let’s not be too hasty.
  • r3bl 7y ago
    > Eh? There already are decentralized social networks available to use. This doesn’t add up. I agree. They've always existed in one form or the other, it's just that nobody gave a fuck. Mastodon kinda changed that by attracting about half a million monthly users. A tiny, tiny number for a social network, but a gigantic number for a decentralized social network. This website is good for the overview of the "fediverse" (collection of social media services talking together via open protocols): https://the-federation.info/ https://the-federation.info/ Hell, name a social network, and I can name at least one attempt at decentralizing it: Twitter (Mastodon, Pleroma), Instagram (PixelFed, Anfora), reddit (Lemmy), YouTube (PeerTube), SoundCloud (Funkwhale), Medium (Write.as) etc. An obvious one that I haven't listed is Facebook, but that thing has so many features that a viable alternative heavily depends on which Facebook features you actually use. I see nothing wrong with this strike, but I don't see how spreading awareness helps if you don't point to the most obvious solution available.
• 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  It never held any power over me. I was always skeptical of it from the start. That’s why it is hard to imagine something like a social media strike. For many of us it has no power over our minds.
  • LMYahooTFY 7y ago
    This seems problematic if you consider yourselves unaffected thus uninvested.
  • buboard 7y ago
    Doesn't HN count as social media?
    • welly 7y ago
      It's a forum.
      • buboard 7y ago
        with karma. and a lot of groupthink. surely it doesnt compare to the dross u see on facebook, but HN , reddit and twitter are on a similar level of socialmedia-ness to me
• bubblewrap 7y ago
  There are already options for decentralized social media. So clearly the majority of people is not in favor of using them, or they would simply do so (without a strike). Therefore, this is about a minority trying to force the majority of people to adapt to their preferences. I can not sympathize with such a cause, even though I personally would prefer decentralized solutions. It reminds me of the town that voted to ban Amazon - when they could just have shopped locally to begin with. Weird, really.
  • gilcardenas 7y ago
    I think you're oversimplifying people. Lots of people want to lose weight while also loving the taste of delicious food that makes them gain weight. Same with smoking, drinking, recycling, etc. It really comes down to the cost on people to do something. If your building didn't provide a recycling bin, you probably wouldn't take the trouble to take all your recycling to a recycling facility. If none of your friends used social media, chances are you wouldn't either.
    • bubblewrap 7y ago
      Decentralized Social Media already exists, like the recycling bins at our apartment complex. The problem is the network effect. But then who are the protestors protesting to? They should protest to their friends to switch over to decentralized SM. Maybe they are just not important enough to have their friends follow them to better services? Instead of going on a strike, why not evangelize those solutions to your friends? As for losing weight: it is true that sometimes people like to have their hands forced. It is called an Ulysses contract, from Ulysses tying himself to the mast so that he couldn't jump into the sea to follow the sirens. Calling for the government in the case of Social Media seems way overblown, though. There are no health issues involved like with unhealthy food. And for unhealthy food, people make those choices by buying smaller packages or using different shops. Arguably not really a case for government intervention, either.
• nikhildahake 7y ago
  I created Timelines - a social network that allows people to own their data. Timelines stores your data in a specific folder on your Google Drive which is sandboxed from all your other data on Google drive. Check it out! https://www.timelines.co https://www.timelines.co
  • stonogo 7y ago
    You own your data by uploading it directly to Google servers?
    • nikhildahake 7y ago
      It is in a sand boxed environment on Google drive. This is more of a proof of concept. I could potentially develop this further by: 1)Giving the user an option of where they would want to store the data e.g. S3, box, dropbox etc. 2)Encrypt the data before sending it to google servers.
  • jsilence 7y ago
    Not sure whether this is sarcasm.
    • nikhildahake 7y ago
      Why would this be sarcasm? I don't understand.
  • mxuribe 7y ago
    I'm encouraged by your effort (anyone working on stuff to help decentralize people's data is always GREAT in my mind). However, if you really want to empower people to own their own data, you may want to consider data repository target platforms like NextCloud, and other platforms like it. That way, from soup to nuts, they have control over their data. Good luck and cheers with your project!
    • nikhildahake 7y ago
• quickthrower2 7y ago
  I'll see your Social Media strike and raise you an Internet strike.
• braindead_in 7y ago
  I fully support it. Hopefully it will not become a social media event and lead to more consumption.
• negamax 7y ago
  Why not do a no Internet day? Will be easier to communicate that. Give people a taste of normal life. They will automatically quit on social media. Like every Sunday no Internet day.
  • iliketosleep 7y ago
    That actually would have been a great idea, in hindsight. I have seen far to many people who suffer from intense anxiety if they have no internet or device access, even if it's just for a few hours. It's like a form of addiction. A day away from the Internet each week would condition people to be able to survive without it.
    • greendestiny_re 7y ago
      I just spent seven days with only a limited data plan. I felt like time slowed down to a crawl and I was able to do much more than on a regular day with the internet.
      • cameronbrown 7y ago
        I've cut down to a 2GB plan for this reason. Initially I was just switching networks but I stuck with it because of how much better I felt. Being more data conscious made me realise how much time I was wasting. I used to consume 2-3 times more data and now I don't even hit my cap anymore.
  • icebraining 7y ago
    The point of the strike is to promote another kind of social media, not protesting against it all. A No Internet day could still be done, but conflating the two would miss the point.
• Karrot_Kream 7y ago
  I feel like most folks haven't read either link. The strike calls for striking against traditional, centralized social media, _not_ other social media (such as the Fediverse).
  • buboard 7y ago
    Probably they should edit the title to mention this fact, it is easy to misunderstand it
  • tastroder 7y ago
    Where's the difference? Nobody (tm) is using the latter anyway. The best example of something decentralised, that is/was actually used, in the linked FAQ seems to be RSS/Atom. In the age of medium, aggregators like iTunes/Spotify and whatnot, that doesn't seem like something that's on a rising slope either. Despite the Twitter conversation in there I'd be hard pressed to see any incentive for this type of corporation to embrace openness when their current alternative is more lucrative. Even if this strike gains momentum in the tech-savvy niche it's unlikely to even be noticed by regular users or even the non-tech influencers those people follow. It lacks an immediately actionable goal and common incentive. Another open standard, another decentralised social $X, that's not something that drives a critical mass away from any of these platforms. The platforms also have enough money to just buy up new players and continue their current paradigm. I like the rules put forward by that decentralisation manifesto, I'm just not sure the general public cares or can care. A general user today likely didn't experience the internet as a set of communities. The experience is, imho, one of commercial interests that drives the masses, which drowns any visible incentive a regular user might gain from the technical approach this movement suggests.
• 3xblah 7y ago
  Interesting how he chose the word "strike", commonly used to refer to workers, as if to imply users are working for Facebook or Twitter. Every time a user submits something to them, it is arguable she is doing work for those companies. The companies do not produce content, yet they depend on it in order to draw traffic. What they provide is a centralised distribution channel. They rely on users to do the work of producing/submitting content.
  • SamuelAdams 7y ago
    That's one of the amazing things about social media. It has the largest unpaid workforce in history - bigger even than the slave trade. Companies aren't getting billions of dollars in stock valuations because of their 50 or so really smart employees: they're getting billions because of their user's data, and their users willingness to continuously cultivate and update that data. That's what makes Facebook data so valuable: it's up to date and it's very detailed, all thanks to the billions of people who contribute to it.
• ekianjo 7y ago
  What would you achieve with a 2 days strike anyway? The idea is so ridiculous in itself it's not even worth writing about.
  • buboard 7y ago
    The goal is to promote decentralized media, not to get people off of them.
• buboard 7y ago
  This is laudable as a way to draw attention to the decentralized media. This is not the typical "social media is bad for you get away". Of course i very much doubt it will work. The best way to make decentralized systems work, is to kick a lot of smart people outside corporate media. Smart people will improve the decentralized platforms and influence others to use them. It will be sort of like what happened with the birth of Bitcoin. I think we should be asking for swift regulation and more censorship on corporate media. It is the kind of thing that really puts off smart people, and will push those early adopters to use the decentranet. Is there a reddit-like decentralized alternative?
• amelius 7y ago
  Perhaps an idea to make a substitute profile pic that people can use to show they are in. By the way, July 4-5 (before the weekend) seems unfortunate timing because many people will want to check for events.
• RickJWagner 7y ago
  social media strike on July 4th? I'm betting Facebook has a huge spike. The people I know on Facebook: - Aren't going to know about the strike - Won't be able to resist posting gratuitous food-fest pics
• will_brown 7y ago
  Here is a suggestion for the strike as well...launch a decentralized anti-libra coin.
  • keithtom 7y ago
    It’s called DAI by makerDAO
• gtfratteus 7y ago
  Is not email and SMS already a decentralized form of social media? I doubt the existence of decentralized social media would mean the end of centralized social media. How do you build a video sharing platform that's anywhere near as full-featured as Youtube without centralization?
• Zenst 7y ago
  What is social media! I'm sure many class this very forum as their social outlet media wise. For some, wiki itself has become a social media outlet. But strikes upon social media which will involve less than 1% of users will gain no traction, hardly a blip. Wouldn't it of been better than instead of a strike that they had a statement with a hashtag that all those striking people posted that day and that was all. That would get traction. The fawning lazy news media who slurp up hashtags as a metric and source for news would pick up upon it. It would grow like a snowball down a snowy hill. The strike approach, given how few in relation to the social media user-base that this will appeal. Would be like a snowball rolling down a hot summer mountain. Nobody will know, apart from those who was there at the start, no traction, no momentum and more so. No sign that it ever happened upon those social media platforms in a noticeable way at all. Hence, I totally appreciate the sentiment, just mindful that the message will be lost with this approach, as it has been lost previously by such actions upon the likes of facebook, twitter and ....that's it as far as the World media counts for its news. FWIW, I don't do twitter anymore, never done facebook and Google+ striked all its users. Hence for me and many others, creating a social media account just to take part by not posting, would play against the intent and into social media hands. But I certainly wish them luck. Though equally, I would not be supprised if a decentralised social media platform suddenly sprung up from wiki origins. But then, the inner cynic in me is very strong in today's digital world. EDIT ADD Had a quick look for `related` interests and see that he is CIO of Everipedia, which is decentralizing encyclopedia writing from an article in March: https://www.wired.com/story/larry-sanger-declaration-of-digital-independence/ https://www.wired.com/story/larry-sanger-declaration-of-digi... But I'd not cry foul even if they did produce their own decentralised social media platform; Kinda hope they do actually. Competition does have its upsides.
  • jayess 7y ago
    A hashtag would get censored, they frequently do this.
  • rexpop 7y ago
    > Wouldn't it [have] been better than instead of a strike that they had a statement with a hashtag that all those striking people posted that day and that was all. This is, in essence, how the action will go down.
• gfodor 7y ago
  For decentralized social media to happen, there needs to be sufficient motive to leave centralized platforms collectively within a cohesive network of individuals, so that if a tipping point is met to overcome activation costs, most of the network will move over so the new decentralized platform has similar value to the old centralized platform that the network was previously on. A few incentivized individuals in a wider network of apathetics won't work -- it needs to be a cohesive network all switching together in order for the value to remain competitive with the old platform, due to Metcalfe's law. And since we're talking about decentralization, the network transitioning will ideally be incentivized to choose a decentralized network to migrate to, vs another centralized one (even though the usability and quality of experience on the decentralized one is likely to be inferior.) This combination of factors is what makes it so difficult to bootstrap these networks. Here's the thing: there is such an opportunity now, if anyone is willing to take it. Conservatives in the US are outraged against perceived censorship and de-platforming by centralized social media platforms. Regardless of the validity, there's a deep seated hatred of these platforms forming and an incredible sense of urgency to move elsewhere. Since the motivation for leaving is overcoming centralized control, this audience is particularly attracted to accepting decentralized platforms. Given that approximately half of the US aligns partially with the views of some of these voices, this is a large potential network. The catch is that we are also living in an era where if someone develops and delivers such a solution for this market, they're going to be under vicious attack and be labelled as sympathizers to the extremist, minority voices of that audience. Most likely their careers will be destroyed by choosing to build for such an audience, regardless of how much the extremist voices are actually present on the decentralized platform. I predict that if we are ever going to see a decentralized social media platform emerge for any of these services, it will begin with a critical mass of marginalized voices who have been censored and de-platformed, and their audience, moving to it. Instead of beginning as a "toy", it will begin as a "place for undesirables." Today that could mean conservative voices in the US, tomorrow it could mean something else. If the network is able to garner sufficient growth, over time, as it always goes, the nature of the "average user" will be diluted away so the network is no longer perceived as a community of like-minded individuals but instead as a general, global platform. (Similar how most mainstream global social network sites today began in a similar way: Twitter was for techies, Facebook was for college kids, etc.) Look out for these leading edge behaviors, and don't just dismiss them if the early adopter audience has the perception of being unsavory to you. It seems somewhat inductive that, given the current existence of the global centralized platforms, any long-run successful decentralized platform likely could not start any other way than with groups of people who both want to leave collectively, and who will get no benefit from staying (in other words, the people on centralized platforms will all want them to leave too.)
• abootstrapper 7y ago
  Strike accepted. I deleted my social media accounts in 2016.
  • rch 7y ago
    Including WhatsApp?
    • abootstrapper 7y ago
      Yarp.
• malloreon 7y ago
  This will have zero effect. If you take any kind of public transportation, even glancing across peoples' screens as you sit down (and ~everyone'll be looking at a screen), 95% will be on fb or instagram. I wish it were different, but by now these apps, and all social media, are extremely good at feeding their users' addictions.
• idlewords 7y ago
  This strike does not seem very well thought through. In an action of this kind, you want to demonstrate organization, capacity, and that you have real numbers behind you. Having people silently not use the internet on a major U.S. holiday achieves none of that. If the goal is to get people to share the hashtag, then that should be the focus of the action. A failed strike is much worse than not striking at all. But frankly, this seems more like a vanity effort than a serious attempt at change.
  • dmix 7y ago
    Sounds like competiting versions of slacktivism to me.
    • idlewords 7y ago
      Slacktivism is a word people even lazier than the slacktivists use to describe small attempts at change. As a lazy guy myself, I'd lift my glass to you if it wasn't all the way over there.
      • dmix 7y ago
        Sorry the idea about being another person acting outraged on Twitter about something makes me cringe. I'd rather spend my time building decentralized alternatives to those products. Which is what I'm doing in my spare time. We, the developers and startup peoples, are the ones who can do something real about it.
• idointernet 7y ago
  I'd be willing to close all of my accounts instead
• adamlangsner 7y ago
  I’m running ads on Instagram right now. Might be fun to pause my campaign for 2 days in addition to not using social media personally
• ilaksh 7y ago
  What about decentralizing the Wikipedia empire?
  • duskwuff 7y ago
    Sanger hasn't been involved with Wikipedia since 2002. Calling him the "Wikipedia cofounder" is, at this point, a little misleading.