8 ms·

Sad. It's probably unpopular but wayland is not ready yet IMHO and lacking on a conceptual level. Yet another few years/months until most bugs are fixed and mor

by nisa 7y ago

Sad. It's probably unpopular but wayland is not ready yet IMHO and lacking on a conceptual level. Yet another few years/months until most bugs are fixed and more broken functionality...

jchw 7y ago
Wayland is literally never going to be ready unless it’s forced to be. How long has Nvidia promised to support it now, and still unless you’re using Nouveau it’s basically not usable on Nvidia cards.
- eropple 7y ago
  Is that still the case? I'm running FC29 with the nVidia closed-source drivers and I haven't had issues. (I have had issues on a laptop with switchable graphics, though, and Nouveau was the solution there.)
  - jchw 7y ago
    Is this new? Last time I tried, Nvidia on Wayland had performance issues and did not support Optimus at all (Edit: after rereading what you said I am guessing that is still an issue.) If it is working though I retract what I said, though it’s absurd how long it took to happen.
    - saltcured 7y ago
      Even without wayland, in recent Fedora releases (I forget if it started with 28 or 29), I've found optimus switchable graphics to be impossible or at least impractical to configure. What's become easier is having the entire X display use the nvidia gpu, with the intel gpu transparently slaved to relay pixels to its connected laptop display. But, it does return the annoying, periodic driver breakage, where a dnf update replaces the xorg-x11-drv-nvidia RPMs and suddenly the userspace is incompatible with the still-running kernel module's slightly older API, so new processes cannot use opengl until I reboot. This was one benefit of optimus via the optirun infrastructure. The main desktop was on the intel gpu and I could actually unload and upgrade the nvidia module if desired, without forcing a disruptive reboot.
      - Iolaum 7y ago
        Do you have any documentation, or even random notes, on how you set that up? I have an optimus laptop and couldn't make the proprietary drivers work ( tried both rpmfusion and negativo17). I m happily using nouveau for now but at some point I ll need to use CUDA again.
        saltcured 7y ago
        I have an older Thinkpad T440p with Geforce GT 730M running Fedora 29. I use the MATE desktop rather than GNOME. I just installed the akmod-nvidia packages from rpmfusion which also pulls in xorg-x11-drv-nvidia and xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda. Search for "PRIME" discussions in the README.txt under /usr/share/doc/xorg-x11-drv-nvidia. I cannot be sure every bit of my config is still necessary, as I left it alone once I got it working. First, I have /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/nvidia-prime.conf with a small amount of config: Section "Module" Load "modesetting" EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "nvidia" Driver "nvidia" Option "AllowEmptyInitialConfiguration" EndSection Then, I created a custom script in /etc/lightdm/display_setup.sh: #!/bin/sh if rpm -q xorg-x11-drv-nvidia \ && lsmod | grep '^nvidia' ' then xrandr --setprovideroutputsource modesetting NVIDIA-0 xrandr --auto xrandr --output eDP-1-1 --set "PRIME Synchronization" 1 fi And in my /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf I added one line to call that script: ... [Seat:*] ... display-setup-script=/etc/lightdm/display_setup.sh To be honest, my old GPU is too slow and with too small RAM to be worthwhile for OpenCL. I find it more practical to just use the Intel OpenCL runtime for multi-core CPUs on this old quad-core laptop or on newer workstations. I do get some use out of xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda on a Titan X desktop GPU though.
        Iolaum 7y ago
        Thanks a lot! I 've already created a thread about my problems in askfedora, made a last post there now linking to your post here in case they help somebody else. https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/black-screen-after-installing-negativo17-nvidia-drivers-on-optimus-laptop/1967/8?u=iolaum https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/black-screen-after-installin... I 'll try your notes when I have enough free time to re-install if things go bad.
    - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
      Why is your standard for a Linux desktop renderer whether a pretty Linux-hostile company's niche laptop energy saving hybrid GPU driver works well on it?
- jammygit 7y ago
  That isn’t waylands fault, it’s the closed source third parties
  - reidrac 7y ago
    That was the same argument gnome 3 used when it wasn't working in my Nvidia GPU: the driver is buggy, not our fault. This is very hard to explain to your users, because there's nothing they can do. So yes, it really doesn't matter too much why if the software doesn't work. I don't mind X until Wayland is ready for all.
    - Tharkun 7y ago
      That's been the argument for every Linux problem for at least as long as I've been using Linux. WiFi drivers used to suck. To the point that you had to be careful which WiFi card (yes, card) you bought, because only a couple of models worked on Linux at all. This situation took an extremely long time to get better. The same thing happened (and is still happening) with graphics cards. But at least most of them sort of work, instead of outright failing. As long as enough consumers don't actively demand decent Linux (or BSD, whatever) support, it will never come. I'd suggest voting with your wallets, but with the laptop market being the steaming pile of shit that it is, that's virtually impossible. The year of the Linux desktop...just like fusion power, is always just around the corner.
      - komali2 7y ago
        Sometimes manufacturers lie to us, though. Like the Thinkpad x1 Carbon was supposed to be "linux-ready," and then it ships with sleep functionality broken for a couple months until they managed to get a BIOS fix through. I tried to vote with my wallet, but this is what Linux is like /shrug
    - shmerl 7y ago
      It's actually easy to explain - ditch Nvidia, they aren't supporting Linux properly. Pretty clear message, and users either get it and ditch it, and if not, nothing you could do to help them. It's totally Nvidia's fault.
tomxor 7y ago
Maintenance mode != dead [1] This just means that development of _new_ features and research should take place on Wayland where it belongs. From what I've read X has been a long evolution into a hodepodge of historical but effectively dead interfaces with newer ones crammed along side... it doesn't make sense to continue the tradition of cramming more features into X, but that doesn't stop people developing new things on top of it while Wayland matures. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintenance_mode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintenance_mode
- chaosfox 7y ago
  yes, and they specifically said: We will keep an eye on it as we will want to ensure X.org stays supportable until the end of the RHEL8 lifecycle at a minimum which gives us a 10 year-ish time frame of support from RH.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  It's sad that maintenance mode != dead. They should have put X-Windows out of its misery decades ago! What's actually sad is that its replacement, Wayland, didn't learn any of the lessons of NeWS (or what we now call AJAX) and Emacs. They could at least throw a JavaScript engine in as an afterthought. But it's WAY too late to actually design the entire thing AROUND an extension language, like NeWS and Emacs and TCL/Tk, which is how it should have been in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS NeWS was architecturally similar to what is now called AJAX, except that NeWS coherently: + used PostScript code instead of JavaScript for programming. + used PostScript graphics instead of DHTML and CSS for rendering. + used PostScript data instead of XML and JSON for data representation. Designing a system around an extension language from day one is a WHOLE lot better than nailing an extension language onto the side of something that was designed without one (and thus suffers from Greenspun's tenth rule). This isn't rocket surgery, people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule >Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d39... >If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles — but you’d be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation
TrueDuality 7y ago
Especially since Gnome is basically the only DE that works on Wayland.
- jhasse 7y ago
  There's also Sway.
  - TrueDuality 7y ago
    Hadn't heard of Sway, but the point still stands... Most of the desktop environments don't support Wayland. Cinnamon is the big one for me but KWin doesn't either which likely has a much larger user base than anything other than Gnome.
    - jhasse 7y ago
      KWin has support, albeit still very buggy (last I heard).
pmontra 7y ago
Last time I checked screen sharing applications couldn't work with Wayland (meet, slack, Skype, etc). All of them work only with X11. I need them to work with my customers so I can't use Wayland until this problem is solved.

by nisa 7y ago

Sad. It's probably unpopular but wayland is not ready yet IMHO and lacking on a conceptual level. Yet another few years/months until most bugs are fixed and more broken functionality...

jchw 7y ago

Wayland is literally never going to be ready unless it’s forced to be. How long has Nvidia promised to support it now, and still unless you’re using Nouveau it’s basically not usable on Nvidia cards.

eropple 7y ago
Is that still the case? I'm running FC29 with the nVidia closed-source drivers and I haven't had issues. (I have had issues on a laptop with switchable graphics, though, and Nouveau was the solution there.)
- jchw 7y ago
  Is this new? Last time I tried, Nvidia on Wayland had performance issues and did not support Optimus at all (Edit: after rereading what you said I am guessing that is still an issue.) If it is working though I retract what I said, though it’s absurd how long it took to happen.
  - saltcured 7y ago
    Even without wayland, in recent Fedora releases (I forget if it started with 28 or 29), I've found optimus switchable graphics to be impossible or at least impractical to configure. What's become easier is having the entire X display use the nvidia gpu, with the intel gpu transparently slaved to relay pixels to its connected laptop display. But, it does return the annoying, periodic driver breakage, where a dnf update replaces the xorg-x11-drv-nvidia RPMs and suddenly the userspace is incompatible with the still-running kernel module's slightly older API, so new processes cannot use opengl until I reboot. This was one benefit of optimus via the optirun infrastructure. The main desktop was on the intel gpu and I could actually unload and upgrade the nvidia module if desired, without forcing a disruptive reboot.
    - Iolaum 7y ago
      Do you have any documentation, or even random notes, on how you set that up? I have an optimus laptop and couldn't make the proprietary drivers work ( tried both rpmfusion and negativo17). I m happily using nouveau for now but at some point I ll need to use CUDA again.
      - saltcured 7y ago
        I have an older Thinkpad T440p with Geforce GT 730M running Fedora 29. I use the MATE desktop rather than GNOME. I just installed the akmod-nvidia packages from rpmfusion which also pulls in xorg-x11-drv-nvidia and xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda. Search for "PRIME" discussions in the README.txt under /usr/share/doc/xorg-x11-drv-nvidia. I cannot be sure every bit of my config is still necessary, as I left it alone once I got it working. First, I have /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/nvidia-prime.conf with a small amount of config: Section "Module" Load "modesetting" EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "nvidia" Driver "nvidia" Option "AllowEmptyInitialConfiguration" EndSection Then, I created a custom script in /etc/lightdm/display_setup.sh: #!/bin/sh if rpm -q xorg-x11-drv-nvidia \ && lsmod | grep '^nvidia' ' then xrandr --setprovideroutputsource modesetting NVIDIA-0 xrandr --auto xrandr --output eDP-1-1 --set "PRIME Synchronization" 1 fi And in my /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf I added one line to call that script: ... [Seat:*] ... display-setup-script=/etc/lightdm/display_setup.sh To be honest, my old GPU is too slow and with too small RAM to be worthwhile for OpenCL. I find it more practical to just use the Intel OpenCL runtime for multi-core CPUs on this old quad-core laptop or on newer workstations. I do get some use out of xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda on a Titan X desktop GPU though.
        Iolaum 7y ago
        Thanks a lot! I 've already created a thread about my problems in askfedora, made a last post there now linking to your post here in case they help somebody else. https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/black-screen-after-installing-negativo17-nvidia-drivers-on-optimus-laptop/1967/8?u=iolaum https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/black-screen-after-installin... I 'll try your notes when I have enough free time to re-install if things go bad.
  - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
    Why is your standard for a Linux desktop renderer whether a pretty Linux-hostile company's niche laptop energy saving hybrid GPU driver works well on it?
jammygit 7y ago
That isn’t waylands fault, it’s the closed source third parties
- reidrac 7y ago
  That was the same argument gnome 3 used when it wasn't working in my Nvidia GPU: the driver is buggy, not our fault. This is very hard to explain to your users, because there's nothing they can do. So yes, it really doesn't matter too much why if the software doesn't work. I don't mind X until Wayland is ready for all.
  - Tharkun 7y ago
    That's been the argument for every Linux problem for at least as long as I've been using Linux. WiFi drivers used to suck. To the point that you had to be careful which WiFi card (yes, card) you bought, because only a couple of models worked on Linux at all. This situation took an extremely long time to get better. The same thing happened (and is still happening) with graphics cards. But at least most of them sort of work, instead of outright failing. As long as enough consumers don't actively demand decent Linux (or BSD, whatever) support, it will never come. I'd suggest voting with your wallets, but with the laptop market being the steaming pile of shit that it is, that's virtually impossible. The year of the Linux desktop...just like fusion power, is always just around the corner.
    - komali2 7y ago
      Sometimes manufacturers lie to us, though. Like the Thinkpad x1 Carbon was supposed to be "linux-ready," and then it ships with sleep functionality broken for a couple months until they managed to get a BIOS fix through. I tried to vote with my wallet, but this is what Linux is like /shrug
  - shmerl 7y ago
    It's actually easy to explain - ditch Nvidia, they aren't supporting Linux properly. Pretty clear message, and users either get it and ditch it, and if not, nothing you could do to help them. It's totally Nvidia's fault.

tomxor 7y ago

Maintenance mode != dead [1] This just means that development of _new_ features and research should take place on Wayland where it belongs. From what I've read X has been a long evolution into a hodepodge of historical but effectively dead interfaces with newer ones crammed along side... it doesn't make sense to continue the tradition of cramming more features into X, but that doesn't stop people developing new things on top of it while Wayland matures. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintenance_mode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintenance_mode

chaosfox 7y ago
yes, and they specifically said: We will keep an eye on it as we will want to ensure X.org stays supportable until the end of the RHEL8 lifecycle at a minimum which gives us a 10 year-ish time frame of support from RH.
DonHopkins 7y ago
It's sad that maintenance mode != dead. They should have put X-Windows out of its misery decades ago! What's actually sad is that its replacement, Wayland, didn't learn any of the lessons of NeWS (or what we now call AJAX) and Emacs. They could at least throw a JavaScript engine in as an afterthought. But it's WAY too late to actually design the entire thing AROUND an extension language, like NeWS and Emacs and TCL/Tk, which is how it should have been in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS NeWS was architecturally similar to what is now called AJAX, except that NeWS coherently: + used PostScript code instead of JavaScript for programming. + used PostScript graphics instead of DHTML and CSS for rendering. + used PostScript data instead of XML and JSON for data representation. Designing a system around an extension language from day one is a WHOLE lot better than nailing an extension language onto the side of something that was designed without one (and thus suffers from Greenspun's tenth rule). This isn't rocket surgery, people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule >Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d39... >If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles — but you’d be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation

TrueDuality 7y ago

Especially since Gnome is basically the only DE that works on Wayland.

jhasse 7y ago
There's also Sway.
- TrueDuality 7y ago
  Hadn't heard of Sway, but the point still stands... Most of the desktop environments don't support Wayland. Cinnamon is the big one for me but KWin doesn't either which likely has a much larger user base than anything other than Gnome.
  - jhasse 7y ago
    KWin has support, albeit still very buggy (last I heard).

pmontra 7y ago

Last time I checked screen sharing applications couldn't work with Wayland (meet, slack, Skype, etc). All of them work only with X11. I need them to work with my customers so I can't use Wayland until this problem is solved.