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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests
- d1ffuz0r 7y agoJust another orchestrated event like current events in Moldova in response to recent Russia-China positive meeting at SPIF 2019
- ddingus 7y agoIt will be rough. China is unlikely to rest.
- loyukfai 7y agoYes, but she's probably too occupied at the moment to kick another honest's nest. Also, HK can be a valve for the Chinese economy if the trade war continues to deteriorate. The majority of the Chinese people have no idea what's happening in HK anyway, so it's not like HK will lead to troubles in other Chinese cities by itself, at least not in the short-term. So it is IMO wise for the Chinese government to leave HK alone for the time being.
- hellofunk 7y agoThat's incredible. That's about one or two people from every household participating. Democracy FTW.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago> Democracy Is it though? Or... Something closer to communism with a democracy wrapper over it. The part I find most confusing is that Hong Kong believed China's word on separate laws separate courts. That was going to be the case until it wasn't convenient, which I suppose is now. China didn't keep their word you say!? Whaa!?
- ajdlinux 7y ago> Hong Kong believed China's word on separate laws separate courts Plenty of Hong Kongers left before 1997 for this exact reason. It wasn't a question about whether Hong Kong believed China's assurances - that decision was made in London, not Hong Kong.
- kovek 7y agoIs that around 2/7th of the population? What are some alternative systems to make the people have a stronger impact?
- briandear 7y ago2/7th is huge. The Bolsheviks had a tiny, tiny percentage of the population and they took over Russia. Also 2/7 participation doesn’t mean 2/7th support. A lot of people might support the movement but are unwilling for various reasons to take to the streets. 2/7 is historic and huge.
- loyukfai 7y agoThe other 5/7 may watch TVB - a HK TV channel of which to many people is their only news source, and which has since been bought by mainlanders, just like many other media and publishing assets in HK - and believe in something totally else. No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job and these protesters are arrogant, dis-obedient trouble-makers. The gap in understanding can be really really big.
- RaceWon 7y ago> No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job I get that: we have the same thing here in the USA with many newspapers and some TV stations. Heck, because of this, some people actually believe President Trump is a Russian Agent, you know, despite the fact that he is one of the great capitalists of all time, and he never ran for Any elected office until he won the Presidency--a feat which was all but impossible... still they think Putin made that happen, because that is what they are told.
- viscanti 7y ago> he never ran for Any elected office until he won the Presidency What about his failed presidential campaign in 2000? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_2000_presidential_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_2000_presidential...
- dymk 7y agoEvery article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government. I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the will of its people.
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoThe real bottom line here: As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan. That should be mentioned more often.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan Not sure what’s going on with this account’s posting history. That said, this allegation is false. Taiwan supports the protesters [1]. Taiwan and Hong Kong, both lawful jurisdictions, are free to enter into extradition agreements with each other. This extradition bill was a ham-fisted attempt by Beijing to subjugate Hong Kong. Ironically, in failing, it has shown Xi’s limited power [2]. [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses-support-for-hong-kong-extradition-bill-protests https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/world/asia/hong-kong-xi-jinping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/world/asia/hong-kong-xi-j...
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoWhat I wrote is not an allegation. It is a fact as there is currently no extradition from HK to Macau/mainland China/Taiwan. The whole bill was brought forward because of a HK resident accused of murdering his girlfriend in Taiwan and who fled back to HK. You can say that this was a pretext to bring the bill forward but it still highlights a real issue. The Taiwanese government is being cynical here. It's also difficult to see how this bill would "subjugate" HK if passed. I do agree that the HK courts would need to be very thorough in considering extradition requests from the mainland and that their independence should be preserved. > Ironically, in failing, it has shown Xi’s limited power Or perhaps people are assuming that "one country, two systems" is a sham when it actually isn't.
- tmp2846 7y agoIt’s a bit sad feeling like this level of participation would never happen in the US. I’m not sure what the reason is, but likely a mix of being a highly individualistic society, apathy, distraction.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> this level of participation would never happen in the US It probably would. We just don’t have an issue that imminently and clearly threatens the wellbeing of 2/7ths of the population, and for which a simple solution (e.g. withdrawing a bill) presents itself. When American cities get pissed off and form a consensus, they certainly turn out.
- tmp2846 7y agoI’m sure more than 2/7 of the population would argue the current president immediately threatens their wellbeing, but won’t demonstrate to show it.
- darkpuma 7y agoIf they earnestly believe their wellbeing is immediately threatened, then what is your theory for why they don't care to mass protest about it?
- gbear605 7y agoVery few people in the USA feel that their wellbeing is being threatened by Trump in the same way that many people in HK feel threatened by the Chinese government.
- anigbrowl 7y agoYou're wrong about that. It's a lot more obvious in Hong Kong because they're concentrated in a relatively small geographic area.
- 7y ago
- swjz 7y agoThey've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.
- tyrust 7y agoThis is mentioned in the article as not being good enough and is just postponing the issue. (I would post a quote, but the Bloomberg mobile site is not cooperating with me).
- CydeWeys 7y ago"Suspended" just means that it would be passed as soon as the protest pressure lets up. That's not good enough. They haven't made it yet.
- trevyn 7y agoThey could start protesting for regime change in Beijing. Being part of China goes both ways. :-)
- hellofunk 7y agoAccording to the news, it’s unlikely that any progress on the bill will be made until next year, based on this protest. It is not just suspended, they also canceled further open discussions about it.
- pishpash 7y ago"Suspended" is a word to save face. Article 23 passage is also "suspended". For all practical purposes the bill's dead.
- yingw787 7y agoYea no the HK govt needs to withdraw the bill and explicitly guarantee no extradition without conviction under HK law for people to feel safe. If China can extradite whoever they want from HK, HK has no sovereignty and no separate identity from China.
- djsumdog 7y agoIt's so silly Hong Kong is on its way back to China. I hope there is some future in them being an independent nation.
- geophile 7y agoHow is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?
- devoply 7y agoUS killed Huawei overnight, a world-class competitor which was basically beating US companies, using pretty shoddy justification. So I would not rule out no one can challenge China, China is not the US. And even if it were Vietnam still beat their ass.
- not_a_moth 7y agoWell, HK is the most powerful financial center in Asia, not to mention a recent UK colony. It has far more Western leverage against China than say Taiwan.
- dharmab 7y agoThey're actually succeeding- the government has backed down and apologized. The protests are pushing on for the resignation of the Chief Executive. Keep in mind this new extradition law also applied to foreign, non-HK/CN citizens visiting Hong Kong legally. Companies operating in HK _really_ did not want this bill, either,
- 7y ago
- ksec 7y agoI wish they could use the Official Figure as 2M and 1. The 1 was tribute to the one died in protest of the bill [0]. R.I.P And I don't think the photos aren't what 2M people in the City really looks like. Here are few better ones. And thank you everyone who supported us, even if you are not in HK, it is still much appreciated. [0] https://time.com/5607742/hong-kong-protester-dies-anti-extradition/ https://time.com/5607742/hong-kong-protester-dies-anti-extra... [1] https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH [2] https://ibb.co/BgQkb0S https://ibb.co/BgQkb0S [3] https://t.co/5NahUcGSKt https://t.co/5NahUcGSKt
- Lucadg 7y agoThank you. This is my new wallpaper now.
- ksec 7y agoSorry two of those were mirrored images, ( See the reply above ). My fault.
- phyzome 7y agoYour link [1] https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH is an altered image. See how it is mirrored horizontally?
- ksec 7y agoThis is my bad! I have been spreading fake images! Sorry that was sent to me via WhatsApp. ( But I can promise you the real thing would have look just as stunning ) Keep your attention to the Dropbox Folder.
- blotter_paper 7y agoWhat's going on with those first two images? The first one is clearly mirrored, though also placed a little off-center. Are these renders? A mashup of rendering and actual photos? Just photos with one mirror effect? I'm genuinely curious.
- deleted 7y ago
- eqing 7y agoPeople at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.
- cdmckay 7y agoAlso, China has explicitly stated that want HK and Macau to join the same system as the rest of China. It’s just a matter of time.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> It’s just a matter of time Well, yes. The handover is explicit in 2047. This whole mess was an avoidable miscalculation prioritising Xi’s short-term political interests over China’s long-term strategic wellbeing.
- learc83 7y agoHawaii isn't an appropriate equivalent. Puerto Rico or American Somoa are closer but still not close enough to make the analogy work.
- hker 7y agoThanks for letting us know how you think. As with other legislation, the devil is in the detail. > An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Such simplification--Hong Kong has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not China--is not useful in understanding laws. I would cite below a point made by Leung Kai Chi (in Chinese [1], Question 6 there), translation mine (+ Google Translate): > 6. But some Western democracies will also sign a transfer agreement with the Chinese government? > > Yes, but the situation in Hong Kong is different. First, when other countries and the Chinese government sign a transfer agreement, they generally stipulate that they will not be transferring to their nationals. However, under the Hong Kong Ordinance, both residents who are born and raised in Hong Kong, or those who only transfer at the Hong Kong airport, can be detained and handed over. Second, democratic countries have election supervision. If the government misuses the handover procedure, it will be punished by the voters. The chief executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the central government. Even if the transfer procedure is misused, it is difficult to open up the responsibility. Thirdly, precisely because the Chief Executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the Central Government, the handover arrangements in Hong Kong cannot be compared with other places. Leaders of other countries can independently assess whether a suspect should be handed over to mainland China. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong is responsible to the Central Government in accordance with the Basic Law and cannot make independent decisions. Under the framework of this system, all administrative examinations under the responsibility of the Chief Executive are tantamount to a false statement. [1]: https://medium.com/@leungkaichihk/%E5%8F%8D%E9%80%81%E4%B8%AD%E7%AD%94%E5%95%8F%E9%9B%86-9841974d889c https://medium.com/@leungkaichihk/%E5%8F%8D%E9%80%81%E4%B8%A... The whole article (in Chinese) is worth a read.
- potatofarmer45 7y agoSo my HK team had the week off to protest. Luckily I didn't get any calls at 2am to bail anyone out of jail. This result- where the government backed down, was not expected by anyone. Ever since the Beijing-picked government stared down the Umbrella Protests in 2014, it's been a death by a thousand cuts to Hong Kong's autonomy. After talking to a friend who works for one of the pro-Beijing parties, it turns out the biggest fear for the Chinese authorities wasn't related to HK at all, but Taiwan. China has spent so much resources to promote friendly candidates for office in Taiwan and this HK debacle has instead emboldened the incumbent president of Taiwan, who is not at all friendly towards Beijing. In fact, she won her party primary and is now well positioned for the elections next year. As it turns out, as important as HK is, Taiwan is more important to Beijing and anything that provides fodder for Taiwan's independence leaning party is not allowed.
- loyukfai 7y agoThe damage is done. It will take quite some time for the opinions of the Taiwanese people to change again, if ever.
- JumpCrisscross 7y agoWe’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders, this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships are beginning to emerge. Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently, identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would have been uneventful. Now, Hong Kong pissed off. Taiwan has seen the writing on the wall. China’s multi-decade integration strategy must be rethought because Xi didn’t think he could survive Hong Kongers criticising his leadership (including its corruption).
- trappist 7y agoThis is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed
- guilhas 7y agoSome notes * French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place. * HK already has extradiction with the USA. * USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute. * Protesters posters are in english. * Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.
- digianarchist 7y agoChinese and English are both official languages of Hong Kong under the Hong Kong Basic Law (article 9) and the Official Languages Ordinance (chapter 5 of the Laws of Hong Kong).
- ksec 7y agoLet's be fair, Yellow Vest has been going on for months. And France has a democratic system in place. Use it! >* Protesters posters are in english. There are just far too many Chinese Poster you don't get to see.
- riffraff 7y agoAlso, yellow vests protests at the top were less than 200k people, in a country of tens of millions. The only reason they made the news is because protests were violent.
- pimmen 7y agoI live on the other side of the world, but this still strikes a deep chord with me. I'm Swedish, born and raised in Gothenburg. After the Umbrella protests in 2014 five people connected to the Causeway Bay Books store in Hong Kong disappeared. One of them is a naturalized Swedish citizen, his daughter was raised in my home town. He is now imprisoned and can't communicate with his daughter, or with the Swedish authorities. Angela Gui, his daughter, is continuing on the struggle for his release to the extent she can, being only 21 when her father disappeared. All these arguments about "leave China be" or "this isn't the West's problem" just don't make any sense to me. This is a small world, whether we like it or not, and letting authoritarian stuff like this extradition treaty to a dictatorship slide is condoning it and before you know it your citizenship, constitutional rights and passport which you thought would keep you safe doesn't work anymore and you get snatched from a street for something you've said. Your family can only cry themselves to sleep over it from the feeling of powerlessness. We don't have to go into hypotheticals about what will happen if China gets more power to persecute people of Hong Kong. In Sweden, we already know what they've done with the limited power they hold now.
- hker 7y agoWe, people from Hong Kong, appreciate your view a lot. Your view is particularly relevant to the current protest on anti-extraditions law: the focus is on what if more people will be transferred to China when CCP does not like what you have done outside of China. Without the extraditions law, CCP has to go into great length to abduct others into China--for the case of the five missing book publishers (including a Swedish national) [1] who did not violate any law in Hong Kong or elsewhere (ignoring some made-up non-sense of drink-drive accidents), likely CCP used secret agents reaching as far as Thailand, because there were no travel documents necessary to have the five people crossing the border through legal channels. But once the extraditions law is passed, China can use Hong Kong to bring people into China, regardless of their nationality, and foreigners merely transiting in Hong Kong could be arrested and then extradited into China. The results weren't pretty. The Swedish national, Gui Minhai, in this case were forced to made a "confession" on CCTV for his "crime", in addition to losing his freedom [1]. China has shown repeatedly that they could retaliate by charging foreigners. What follows the Huawei incident is a recent example. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
- taiwanboy 7y agoI am proud of our democratic cousins in Hong Kong; this is just the beginning. Who knows what kind of country China will be in 2047, maybe there is hope for democratic China or 50 more years of democratic Hong Kong, who knows. As for Taiwan, Taiwanese people already identify themselves with being Taiwanese. Nearly 80% of people polled identify themselves in fact, in recent polls. Now we just need the older generations to slowly fade away (ones that still watch China influenced news channels). The fact that president Tsai (who is close to our US allies) won her party election recently and has a 10% lead over her opposite party opponents (who are now distancing themselves from China) give us great hope. Our independence is going to continue. As for the naysayers that say China can simply invade, I beg to differ. China was always going to have problems attacking a well fortified island. But an old, broke China with no allies in the region attacking Taiwan with US backing it is impossible. And as time goes on, Taiwan will eventually declare independence and have the world support for it. That’s the future I am looking forward to
- nojvek 7y agoI really look forward to Taiwan as its own independent country like Singapore.
- hker 7y agoI think the South East Asia region will be more stable if Taiwan, a democratic nation, rises in power and gets less influenced by CCP, whose legitimacy depends largely on fast GDP growth, which is increasingly impossible in this age of excess production and currently is done only with unsustainable credit expansion. Recently Xi is switching the legitimacy from fast GDP growth to revival nationalism--the so called Chinese dream [1]--but such aggression is also destablizing to the region. Some coordinated efforts in the free world to raise Taiwan would help, but at least Taiwan is gaining a little bit from the recent trade tariffs [2]. [1]: https://www.eurasiareview.com/08122018-the-contours-of-xis-chinese-nationalism-analysis/ https://www.eurasiareview.com/08122018-the-contours-of-xis-c... [2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/vietnam-tops-list-of-biggest-winners-from-u-s-china-trade-war https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/vietnam-t...
- XuMiao 7y ago
- hker 7y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/ has lots of videos of the events today, for those who want more than static photos.
- canada_dry 7y agoGood timeline with pics here: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3014695/sea-black-hong-kong-will-march-against-suspended https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3014695...
- switch007 7y ago2M is ~27% of its population. Mind blowing if 2M is roughly correct.
- peter303 7y agoJusta matter of time before Beijing use Tiananmen force to quell these protesters. Done so multiple other places like Xinjiang and Xizang.
- yumraj 7y agoHopefully the common folks in mainland China are watching, and is not censored, and take inspiration from HK folks in marching and fighting for their human rights.
- hker 7y agoTo give due credits, the Hong Kong people put great effort to ensure that the protests--both the Umbrella protest in 2014 and the anti-extradition protest in 2019--are peaceful, largely because they don't want to turn Victorial Park into another Tiananmen Square--there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and they will come out once the Hong Kong police loses control of the situation. Hong Kong people learned from mainland China first. I do hope that one day mainland China could learn back, when the time calls for it. Okay, as for the bit on cleaning trashes [1], we don't learn it from China, we learn it from Japan (for example [2]). Well, we all have something to learn from each other. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_is_cleaning_and_clearing_the_rubbish/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_... [2]: https://nextshark.com/japanese-world-cup-fans-clean-stadium-winning-colombia/ https://nextshark.com/japanese-world-cup-fans-clean-stadium-...
- confusedhnguy 7y agoWhile I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation. Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing as good as we can. https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-trash-copying-japans-example https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-tra... Downvote me all you want, I still support your democratic movements. But if you truly want mainlander to hear your voice, talking about how good Japan is is counterproductive. If you want to make friends with the victims, it is not a good idea to talk about how morally superior the criminals are. Please explain why are you down-voting this. I changed my mind seeing your previous posts, and I may change again if you can point out my mistake.
- 7y ago
- chaz6 7y agoI strongly believe that the people of Hong Kong should have the right to self-determinism. There is nobody alive who has lived under Chinese rule in Hong Kong. For reference, I am British. I hope that someday Hong Kong can be recognized as a country in its own right.
- macspoofing 7y agoAs do the people of Tibet. Tough being under the umbrella of an autocratic up-and-coming superpower. Hong Kong has no chance of achieving independence anytime soon.
- echaozh 7y agoWhy is Northern Ireland still part of Britain?
- anothermouse 7y agoMostly because the majority of people living there wish to be remain part of the United Kingdom.
- 40acres 7y agoI thought Xi was smarter than this. Between this and his inability to end tarriff escalation with Trump, Xi is looking vulnerable on foreign policy.
- techsin101 7y agoDoesn't USA have same extradition treaty with most countries and under Patriot act anyone can be extradited without due process from any of this nations