10 ms·

Some of the reasons why petrol won: There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside t

Some of the reasons why petrol won: There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and don't last long compared to petrol engines. Electric motors were big then - it was only rare earth magnets that made them small enough to consider using in cars at high speed/ranges. Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this, because people want to take their cars on the road on the weekend without having to worry. In the 1900's it was the call of the open road and cheap travel (petrol was very cheap then) that made petrol win.

fragmede 7y ago
> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances Early models of the Nissan leaf weren't too much more than that (though there have been some advances since the invention of electricity). However, golf carts are the modern version of the small electric car - and is street legal in service jurisdictions! (Okay, technically what's street legal isn't literally a golf cart, and is called a low speed vehicle (LSV) and will only do 25mph, and aren't always electric, but close enough!)
- amelius 7y ago
  For short distances you could use a bicycle or scooter instead. Cars are mostly useful for larger distances, i.e. on highways, where slow vehicles are not allowed.
  - chadcmulligan 7y ago
    bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      You'd be surprised how much a simple bicycle or scooter cab can accomplish in solving this objection. These are very popular in Asia. The main limit is carrying capacity - maximum power - and you really do not need that much stuff. This works long range too, and could work even longer range should there be proper cargo trains for bikes. But there aren't. The trip time is typically needed to be less than 10h or you need alternative driver or a long break anyway. A car can go let's say 1000 km on average in that time. A plane maybe 5kkm and a train matches a car. A human powered bicycle goes perhaps 250-300 km. Man on foot goes 40 km. In a city a car is on average 30% faster than a bike and even less vs a scooter or motorbike. Except in the bigger mode of transport there is space to put in amenities and a spare driver or secondary crew.
      - chadcmulligan 7y ago
        That's a good point, I suppose the problem with many cities is they are designed for cars, not for more people centric solutions. I'd like to see a city designed for smaller vehicles bikes / scooters / small EV's, its difficult to get rid of cars once they're there though.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        They are popular in Asia because relatively speaking Asia is poor. Just like the flying pigeon bike was massively popular in china back in the 70's, I even saw one being ridden at Cranfield university by a Chinese masters/doctoral student in the late 70's early eighties.
        benj111 7y ago
        They are popular in the Netherlands also. The overall point was that bikes can be made to work, Asia is a large scale example, although as you say, not necessarily by choice. The Netherlands, and increasingly other parts of north west Europe are another example.
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
  - scj 7y ago
    Cars are also useful in colder / rainy weather... Where I live, people tend to ride motorbikes on a weather permitting basis. Which means the bulk of days are in late May, June, July, August, and early September. Assuming they can afford to have a second vehicle.
godelski 7y ago
Another reason: Even today the energy density of batteries is SUBSTANTIALLY smaller than that of fossil fuels. [0] We frequently see this graph [1] showing how far batteries have come (they have! and we need to keep going) but not understanding this is part of the issue too. [0] is why we need to keep researching, but [0] is why electric was never going to win in the beginning. It is taking very advanced materials to get to pretty decent energy densities and also advanced materials to use electricity more efficiently. Advanced materials that would likely^ not have been invented that far back even if there was a demand. [0] https://static.financialsense.com/historical/users/u242/images/2013/Energy-Density.jpg https://static.financialsense.com/historical/users/u242/imag... [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gp_Pandey/publication/231064871/figure/fig1/AS:300535103148037@1448664560867/Comparison-of-energy-densities-of-different-battery-systems.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gp_Pandey/publication/2... ^ For you hopefuls, I say likely not impossible. The machining to create these state of the art batteries requires a lot of other technologies.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I still think there is a limit in chemical density that cannot be overcome without significantly changing technological principles of current batteries. Maybe hydrogen fuel cells would be a better solution after all if we can find an efficient way to contain it. Easier said than done...
  - gambiting 7y ago
    Energy density of hydrogen per litre is few orders of magnitude lower than that of petrol. Really the only saving grace of hydrogen vs batteries is the speed of refueling.
    - chadcmulligan 7y ago
      If someone invented a cheap round trip processing method CO2 -> petrol then EV's would have a hard time I suspect
      - 7y ago
clouddrover 7y ago
> its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this Here's one. The Renault Twizy: https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html The e.Go Life only has 100km range in the base model (the e.Go Kart looks pretty fun): https://e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life/ https://e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life/ The Sono Sion has a small battery but plenty of solar panels: https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/ https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/ The Honda e is a nice looking city car with only 200km range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfD67KCFxqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfD67KCFxqI The electric city car certainly exists. I wouldn't buy one but you can if you want.
avar 7y ago
> [...]a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this[...] These are called microcars[1] and a lot of models exist. E.g. the Canta[2] (both petrol and electric models) and Biro[3] are quite popular in The Netherlands. There they're given preferential regulatory treatment, e.g. you can park them on sidewalks and drive them down bicycle paths. The problem with a small car that can go at max 30 mph is that a moped is a much better fit for most use cases for such a car. An advantage of a car like the Canta or Biro is that they're fully covered, so you won't get wet in the rain. But you can also get good moped rain covers, and mopeds are a lot cheaper. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Microcars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Microcars 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrima_Bir%C3%B2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrima_Bir%C3%B2
pjc50 7y ago
Power control is also a massive consideration - doing more than on-off basically requires semiconductors or wasting a lot of energy in variable resistors. Some old systems had two-speed control by swapping batteries between series and parallel. One of Tesla's less obvious innovations is going beyond silicon to silicon carbide for high-power control: https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SP18413-STM_SiC_Module_Tesla_Model_3_Inverter_sample-3.pdf https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SP18413... Milk floats lasted a long time as ubiquitous home delivery EVs. Maybe we'll see their return.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  We already got them back around here, since a few years ago, mostly used by mailmen.
lagadu 7y ago
> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this Hmmm? There are quite a few like that, off the top of my head: - Peugeot Ion - Smart electric - Renault Zoe - Mitsubishi imiev - Fiat 500 had an EV version - Don't remember the name but some citroen too
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I think the poster was more thinking of the "neighborhood electric vehicle" type. I don't know all the cars on the list, but the Fiat 500 and smart electric are both normal cars that can hit 65+mph on highways with ease and have ranges over 100km.
hwillis 7y ago
> There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Not true- Pearl street switched on in 1882, the first overhead wires went up in 1883, and by 1899 there were hundreds of generating stations. Until around 1905-1910 there was no real standardization, leading to a mix of DC, polyphase, and split-phase systems since light bulbs don't care what they run on. Roughly standard split-phase pretty quickly won out and the first electrical washing machine was sold in 1907, before the first model T. The problem is much more fundamental: you can't charge a battery on AC. Getting DC power at home was NOT easy. You needed a phase converter (an AC motor connected to a DC motor) or a mercury rectifier[1], both FAR from affordable. > Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and don't last long compared to petrol engines. That's just goofy. Research doesn't just happen, there has to be real interest and funding. There was no significant interest in batteries for half a century. > Electric motors were big then - it was only rare earth magnets that made them small enough to consider using in cars at high speed/ranges. Totally wrong. Electric motors have always and will always be far more compact than combustion motors. In fact induction motors -the kind used in the Tesla Model S- have been essentially unchanged since 1889, when the first squirrel-cage motor was invented. > Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this, because people want to take their cars on the road on the weekend without having to worry. In the 1900's it was the call of the open road and cheap travel (petrol was very cheap then) that made petrol win. No it wasn't. The Model T had a maximum range of 250-300 miles, and as the article says the Detroit Electric could do 240 miles. The Model T did over double the top speed and cost a fourth as much, but the speed wasn't due to technical limitations and the cost was because electric vehicles were a luxury item (the battery was a low-ish premium). Electricity and gas cost roughly the same at the time. It was all about the charging. Efficient electricity transmission requires high voltage. High voltage requires transformers. Transformers require AC. Batteries require DC. Until it was cheap to convert AC to DC, electric cars had no chance. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89SV_UwykQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89SV_UwykQ
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
The problem has always been the battery. Energy density (MegaJoule/Kilogram): Lithium-ion battery: 0.36–0.875 MK/kg Gasoline: 46 MJ/kg for reference, Uranium: 80,620,000 MJ/kg We might get parity between gasoline and electric by 2045 [0]. [0]: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-density-parity-gasoline-2045/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-densi...

fragmede 7y ago

> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances Early models of the Nissan leaf weren't too much more than that (though there have been some advances since the invention of electricity). However, golf carts are the modern version of the small electric car - and is street legal in service jurisdictions! (Okay, technically what's street legal isn't literally a golf cart, and is called a low speed vehicle (LSV) and will only do 25mph, and aren't always electric, but close enough!)

amelius 7y ago
For short distances you could use a bicycle or scooter instead. Cars are mostly useful for larger distances, i.e. on highways, where slow vehicles are not allowed.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    You'd be surprised how much a simple bicycle or scooter cab can accomplish in solving this objection. These are very popular in Asia. The main limit is carrying capacity - maximum power - and you really do not need that much stuff. This works long range too, and could work even longer range should there be proper cargo trains for bikes. But there aren't. The trip time is typically needed to be less than 10h or you need alternative driver or a long break anyway. A car can go let's say 1000 km on average in that time. A plane maybe 5kkm and a train matches a car. A human powered bicycle goes perhaps 250-300 km. Man on foot goes 40 km. In a city a car is on average 30% faster than a bike and even less vs a scooter or motorbike. Except in the bigger mode of transport there is space to put in amenities and a spare driver or secondary crew.
    - chadcmulligan 7y ago
      That's a good point, I suppose the problem with many cities is they are designed for cars, not for more people centric solutions. I'd like to see a city designed for smaller vehicles bikes / scooters / small EV's, its difficult to get rid of cars once they're there though.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      They are popular in Asia because relatively speaking Asia is poor. Just like the flying pigeon bike was massively popular in china back in the 70's, I even saw one being ridden at Cranfield university by a Chinese masters/doctoral student in the late 70's early eighties.
      - benj111 7y ago
        They are popular in the Netherlands also. The overall point was that bikes can be made to work, Asia is a large scale example, although as you say, not necessarily by choice. The Netherlands, and increasingly other parts of north west Europe are another example.
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
- scj 7y ago
  Cars are also useful in colder / rainy weather... Where I live, people tend to ride motorbikes on a weather permitting basis. Which means the bulk of days are in late May, June, July, August, and early September. Assuming they can afford to have a second vehicle.

godelski 7y ago

Another reason: Even today the energy density of batteries is SUBSTANTIALLY smaller than that of fossil fuels. [0] We frequently see this graph [1] showing how far batteries have come (they have! and we need to keep going) but not understanding this is part of the issue too. [0] is why we need to keep researching, but [0] is why electric was never going to win in the beginning. It is taking very advanced materials to get to pretty decent energy densities and also advanced materials to use electricity more efficiently. Advanced materials that would likely^ not have been invented that far back even if there was a demand. [0] https://static.financialsense.com/historical/users/u242/images/2013/Energy-Density.jpg https://static.financialsense.com/historical/users/u242/imag... [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gp_Pandey/publication/231064871/figure/fig1/AS:300535103148037@1448664560867/Comparison-of-energy-densities-of-different-battery-systems.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gp_Pandey/publication/2... ^ For you hopefuls, I say likely not impossible. The machining to create these state of the art batteries requires a lot of other technologies.

raxxorrax 7y ago
I still think there is a limit in chemical density that cannot be overcome without significantly changing technological principles of current batteries. Maybe hydrogen fuel cells would be a better solution after all if we can find an efficient way to contain it. Easier said than done...
- gambiting 7y ago
  Energy density of hydrogen per litre is few orders of magnitude lower than that of petrol. Really the only saving grace of hydrogen vs batteries is the speed of refueling.
  - chadcmulligan 7y ago
    If someone invented a cheap round trip processing method CO2 -> petrol then EV's would have a hard time I suspect
    - 7y ago

clouddrover 7y ago

> its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this Here's one. The Renault Twizy: https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html The e.Go Life only has 100km range in the base model (the e.Go Kart looks pretty fun): https://e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life/ https://e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life/ The Sono Sion has a small battery but plenty of solar panels: https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/ https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/ The Honda e is a nice looking city car with only 200km range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfD67KCFxqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfD67KCFxqI The electric city car certainly exists. I wouldn't buy one but you can if you want.

avar 7y ago

> [...]a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this[...] These are called microcars[1] and a lot of models exist. E.g. the Canta[2] (both petrol and electric models) and Biro[3] are quite popular in The Netherlands. There they're given preferential regulatory treatment, e.g. you can park them on sidewalks and drive them down bicycle paths. The problem with a small car that can go at max 30 mph is that a moped is a much better fit for most use cases for such a car. An advantage of a car like the Canta or Biro is that they're fully covered, so you won't get wet in the rain. But you can also get good moped rain covers, and mopeds are a lot cheaper. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Microcars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Microcars 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrima_Bir%C3%B2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrima_Bir%C3%B2

pjc50 7y ago

Power control is also a massive consideration - doing more than on-off basically requires semiconductors or wasting a lot of energy in variable resistors. Some old systems had two-speed control by swapping batteries between series and parallel. One of Tesla's less obvious innovations is going beyond silicon to silicon carbide for high-power control: https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SP18413-STM_SiC_Module_Tesla_Model_3_Inverter_sample-3.pdf https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SP18413... Milk floats lasted a long time as ubiquitous home delivery EVs. Maybe we'll see their return.

BlueTemplar 7y ago
We already got them back around here, since a few years ago, mostly used by mailmen.

lagadu 7y ago

> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this Hmmm? There are quite a few like that, off the top of my head: - Peugeot Ion - Smart electric - Renault Zoe - Mitsubishi imiev - Fiat 500 had an EV version - Don't remember the name but some citroen too

sokoloff 7y ago
I think the poster was more thinking of the "neighborhood electric vehicle" type. I don't know all the cars on the list, but the Fiat 500 and smart electric are both normal cars that can hit 65+mph on highways with ease and have ranges over 100km.

hwillis 7y ago

> There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Not true- Pearl street switched on in 1882, the first overhead wires went up in 1883, and by 1899 there were hundreds of generating stations. Until around 1905-1910 there was no real standardization, leading to a mix of DC, polyphase, and split-phase systems since light bulbs don't care what they run on. Roughly standard split-phase pretty quickly won out and the first electrical washing machine was sold in 1907, before the first model T. The problem is much more fundamental: you can't charge a battery on AC. Getting DC power at home was NOT easy. You needed a phase converter (an AC motor connected to a DC motor) or a mercury rectifier[1], both FAR from affordable. > Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and don't last long compared to petrol engines. That's just goofy. Research doesn't just happen, there has to be real interest and funding. There was no significant interest in batteries for half a century. > Electric motors were big then - it was only rare earth magnets that made them small enough to consider using in cars at high speed/ranges. Totally wrong. Electric motors have always and will always be far more compact than combustion motors. In fact induction motors -the kind used in the Tesla Model S- have been essentially unchanged since 1889, when the first squirrel-cage motor was invented. > Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this, because people want to take their cars on the road on the weekend without having to worry. In the 1900's it was the call of the open road and cheap travel (petrol was very cheap then) that made petrol win. No it wasn't. The Model T had a maximum range of 250-300 miles, and as the article says the Detroit Electric could do 240 miles. The Model T did over double the top speed and cost a fourth as much, but the speed wasn't due to technical limitations and the cost was because electric vehicles were a luxury item (the battery was a low-ish premium). Electricity and gas cost roughly the same at the time. It was all about the charging. Efficient electricity transmission requires high voltage. High voltage requires transformers. Transformers require AC. Batteries require DC. Until it was cheap to convert AC to DC, electric cars had no chance. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89SV_UwykQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89SV_UwykQ

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

The problem has always been the battery. Energy density (MegaJoule/Kilogram): Lithium-ion battery: 0.36–0.875 MK/kg Gasoline: 46 MJ/kg for reference, Uranium: 80,620,000 MJ/kg We might get parity between gasoline and electric by 2045 [0]. [0]: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-density-parity-gasoline-2045/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-densi...