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The Race to Become the Beyond Meat of Fish
- kerbalspacepro 7y agoIt took 100 million years for evolution to design cows and 400 million years of evolution have been impacting fish, so it will take approximately 4x as much investment or time to develop a "Further Than Fish" replacement
- fredsir 7y agoIt doesn't have to be better than fish in every way. Just in the ways that consumers care about.
- projectramo 7y agoEvolution wasted its time making fish move around, vision, reproduction, gills and so on. The replacement just has to taste very similar, not hurt animals, be reasonably priced, sustainable to produce and healthy or neutral for health.
- comex 7y agoAlso, the meat substitutes that currently exist are all based on plants, which also went through all those years of evolution – they’re not chemically synthesized from the ground up. And they seem set to be supplanted in the future by meat grown artificially from real animal cells, which will make the whole point moot.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoI don't think those numbers have any relationship to taste, but if you insist - life first appeared on earth 3.5 billion years ago, so the majority of that will be the exact same, it should take a minor modification to get to fish.
- steve_adams_86 7y agoFood science isn't a linear process based on the evolutionary complexity of the organisms we eat. Arguably cows have been impacted by as much evolution as any organism. It's not as though cows spontaneously generated 100M years ago - there were hundreds of millions of years leading up to cows becoming what we recognize today.
- ThomPete 7y agoId rather see someone become the Beyond Bread/Pasta with zero carbohydrates, that i believe would be a much bigger market.
- fredsir 7y agoWhy zero carbohydrates?
- cpursley 7y agoCarbohydrates get quickly stored as fat if not used as energy. Carbs and sugar are the culprit behind the obesity epidemic, not meat.
- fwip 7y agoDoes anyone say that meat causes obesity?
- yourapostasy 7y agoI don't think meat per se is fingered as the cause from what I read in these and similar comment threads, but the fat that usually comes with most affordable cuts of meat, so meat gets tarred with the same brush.
- HillaryBriss 7y agoI can't wait to open a can of the Beyond Meat of the Chicken of the Sea
- makerofspoons 7y agoThat would be fantastic- no mercury or by-catch to worry about.
- bduerst 7y agoNope - they're creating beyond dolphin meat and adding to the cans to mimic the real thing.
- HeyImAlex 7y agoYou can already buy vegan canned tuna at whole foods. Compared to the real thing I'd give it 6/10.
- astura 7y agoWas it the same fake tuna The Wolfe Pit reviewed? https://youtu.be/pQtSgL6Wwbw https://youtu.be/pQtSgL6Wwbw
- hombre_fatal 7y agoJust google "whole foods vegan tuna" and you'll see it's a brand named Good Catch. Your youtube video reviews something from the dollar store.
- astura 7y agoIt wasn't from the dollar store, he said it costed him $8.53 for the can.
- muraiki 7y agoI wonder what effects these foods have on the microbiome and health? I read an article this morning about two studies that linked ultraprocessed foods to cardiovascular problems and early death: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/6/11/18652653/diet-weight-loss-ultra-processed-foods-microbiome https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/6/11/18652653/di... It seems like these foods fit in the category of "ultraprocessed", unfortunately.
- mc32 7y agoI think that depends on the process. Is it removing nutrients, replacing them with mostly additives and fillers to improve taste color and texture? What are they derived from?
- creaghpatr 7y agoI agree, what does 'processed' and 'ultraprocessed' mean in practice? Are there objective categorizations besides distinguishing between organic food and everything else?
- notJim 7y agoThey seem to be using the "NOVA" definitions from Monteiro et al., 2018, which are apparently summarized here: https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova
- alecco 7y agoSure, but I bet ultra-processed meat is worse than ultra-processed beans.
- notyourwork 7y agoI think in this context you mean ultra-processed "meat".
- bduerst 7y agoThe human body is pretty resilient for most foods. While fortifying "ultra-processed" foods with simple sugars and hydrogenated fats have negative health effects, people have been consuming processed proteins for a while now without that much negativity. Problems arise when these faux meats are themselves over-fortified with simple sugars and trans fats, in order to mimic real meat. Then you're losing health benefits of eating the real thing, and you should be careful.
- makerofspoons 7y agoNot mentioned in this article, but the Gardein brand vegan fish fillets and crab cakes are excellent and already available at grocery stores.
- vga805 7y agoYes! These things are some of the best faux-meats out there.
- Abishek_Muthian 7y agoHi, how does it compare to the nutritional value? I saw that that the 'The Impossible Burger' contains near equal nutritional value of real meat; does the veg fish fillets and crab cakes you speak of contain Vitamin D3 and other essential vitamins seen mostly only in sea food?
- inapis 7y agoHumans mostly synthesise Vitamin D. Plus foods like eggs contain them and milk in a lot of countries is fortified with vitamin d. Seafood is not the only source of that essential vitamin.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y agoVegans don't consume eggs or milk - and vitamin D deficiency is a very real issue at northern latitudes in winter, even for meat eaters.
- Abishek_Muthian 7y agoVitamin D3 is not synthesised properly for many leading to several bone related issues, I'm one of them. In natural sources it is found only in animal products especially in fish.
- metta2uall 7y agoOne can consider a supplement. It's not strictly "natural", but cooking animal products instead of eating them raw isn't exactly "natural" either..
- hirundo 7y agoHere are the ingredients of a Beyond Burger from their website: > Water, Pea Protein Isolate*, Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil, Refined Coconut Oil, Rice Protein, Natural Flavors, Cocoa Butter, Mung Bean Protein, Methylcellulose, Potato Starch, Apple Extract, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Vinegar, Lemon Juice Concentrate, Sunflower Lecithin, Pomegranate Fruit Powder, Beet Juice Extract (for color) Here are ingredients of a regular burger: > Beef I avoid seed oils and starches. Otherwise the Beyond Burger ingredients don't sound too bad. But clearly it's a highly processed food product compared to ground beef. That will also be true of a fish version compared to fish. The artificial versions will be relatively deficient in other nutrients like B-12, omega 3 fats, vitamin D, heme-iron, zinc and some amino acids. In terms of nutrition rather than ethics it looks like an inferior substitute.
- tdb7893 7y agoYeah they are different, it's not gonna be the exact same. Also if you need to add a specific vitamin or mineral it's easy to just add it
- danans 7y agoBeef is not a homogeneous substance. It contains many constituent substances, just like the Beyond Burger contains ingredients, and many of the constituents are analogous to Beyond Burger ingredients, which is why the taste is so close. It's also made of whatever the cow consumed, and depending on the source of the beef, that can vary a great deal. Also, the human body is very resilient as to the source of its nutrients, as long as it gets those nutrients in sufficient quantity and balance.
- loooolerskoot 7y ago> In terms of nutrition rather than ethics it looks like an inferior substitute. Most of the people eating this are already pretty frail. Sounds like a recipe for disaster IMO.
- flukus 7y agoHave you ever made a burger? There's a lot more in your average beef patty than just beef, here are the ingredients for one of the local burger chains: > Beef Mince, Relish (Diced Tomato (50%), Sugar, Onions, Vinegar, Tomato Paste, Herbs And Spices, Salt, Thickener (1422), Food Acid (330), Firming Agent (509)), Salt, Parsley And if you're avoiding starches why would you be getting a burger, the bun is a starch. And lets not even start on what's likely to be in the rest of the ingredients.
- dawhizkid 7y agoAre there any private companies actually working on commercializing lab grown meat? Or is it still way too early for that? I'm much more bullish on lab grown meat - the company that can build that will be $100b+ company for sure.
- InterimNew 7y agoMemphis Meats is one company I'm aware of that's working to commercialize cell cultured meats. I haven't really checked up on them since their demo day, but a cursory glance suggests that they seem to be going strong.
- ndiscussion 7y agoJust curious.. how can you be bullish about lab grown meat without knowing if any companies are involved in it? It may be a 100b+ company, or it may be that producing lab grown meat costs 100x as much and there is no way to reduce that. Have there been any initial figures? If so, why is no business capitalizing on it? This is mostly hypothetical but if you have a response I'd like to hear it.
- ushshshs 7y agoHe didn't say he didn't know of any companies involved.
- dwaltrip 7y ago> it may be that producing lab grown meat costs 100x as much and there is no way to reduce that. This may or may not be true in the short term, but it seems unlikely to me in the long run. There are physical processes occurring inside the cow which don't require many resources. I can't see what would stop us from _eventually_ being able to mimic the key aspects of those processes and to do so somewhat efficiently. Of course, it may end up taking quite a long time to develop this capability.
- hkyeti 7y agoAm an investor in both cell-cultured meat and plant-based meat. Personally I'm more bullish about plant-based meat, though cell-based is an important plan B
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agohttps://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-consumption#global-seafood-production-by-type https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-consu... Seafood consumption is far higher than meat-- good luck to these folks, it could be highly profitable. Update: Worldwide meat consumption (first graph): 317,000,000 tonnes. Worldwide seafood consumption (later down): 154,850 kilotonnes, or 154,850,000 tonnes. Seafood is roughly half of meat. That's still a large market.
- buzzdenver 7y agoThat does not seem right. According to https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/ https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/st... beef/pork/chicken consumption is much higher than fish.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoYour source is based on USDA data, which I assume is per capita US consumption. Meat and seafood consumption are quite different in other parts of the world.
- dzhiurgis 7y agoYou’re not going to sell this to a fisherman in Papua New Guinea who live off $1 a day...
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoIf it's cheaper than the price of fish (which I think is the long term aim of Beyond Meat et. al.), you will definitely sell the poor and lower middle class. Meats and seafood are more expensive parts of a diet. It's better for the environment (smaller carbon footprint), it's more ethical, and it's cheaper -- if the manufacturing of meatless and seafoodless substitutes can achieve this at scale.
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- ilikehurdles 7y agoTo me, seeing YuppieVCFoodStartup brand names in a restaurant is akin to the restaurant advertising they’re selling me Lays(tm) chips as the side to my burger. While I have no urge to eat food for its ability to imitate meat (so I’m not the target audience anyway), I think these products belong in a grocery or convenience store, not a dining establishment. It feels to me like paying a premium to eat frozen store-bought dinners, and as bonus points, they’re the vegetarian equivalent of over processed mystery meat. Can’t wait for this hype to level off or for the trend to go the way of shilling Soylent. Sorry to be a downer, but anything remotely touching alt-food startups on HN is hyped with positive sentiment to the point where any criticism gets discouraged.
- core-questions 7y agoAbsolutely. It's one thing for fast food service to do this, quite another for a real restaurant - which is presumably making their own burgers from ground beef, maybe butchering sides of beef, etc. - to be advertising retail-grade consumer products.
- astura 7y agoDo you also object to the entire concept of ordering a Budweiser™ beer at a restaurant or bar? I mean... You can drink that at home for a quarter of the price. Somehow I don't feel the urge to tell someone enjoying a Budweiser™ beer at a bar that their drink "belongs" for sale only at a grocery/convenience store for at-home consumption only. I buy sandwiches from a place that advertises they use Boar's Head meat. Shrug
- onion2k 7y agoDo you also object to the entire concept of ordering a Budweiser™ beer at a restaurant or bar? Yes. Budweiser is terrible beer.
- ljcn 7y agoThat's not a fair comparison, unless the restaurant also brews its own beer. A better drinks comparison would be choosing from the menu between a 'Jose Cuervo Authentic Margarita' and a margarita mixed fresh by the bartender. I agree with the OP - in a restaurant I would always order a made-from-scratch dish (the house margarita) than a factory-made burger (the premixed margarita).
- bduerst 7y agoTangential question for HN vegetarians: Would you eat lab-grown meat if it was affordable?
- phyrex 7y agoThere are many reasons why people are vegetarian. Environmental, spiritual, ethical, health, digestion issues, etc. So it very much depends on the reason, and on the specifics. Speaking for myself, I'm an ethical vegan and I would probably eat lab-grown meat.
- HuShifang 7y agoYes. Albeit probably infrequently. My motivations are primarily ethical and environmental, though I have grown more sympathetic to certain of the health arguments too. If it were ethically and environmentally acceptable, then I'd have no moral compunction about eating lab-grown meat (aka "cellular agriculture" products). But I don't "miss" meat, after about six years of (ostro-)veganism, so I'd probably only eat lab-grown poultry and seafood on occasion, and skip red meat altogether insofar as it has (according to my understanding) deleterious health impacts that poultry and seafood probably don't.
- makerofspoons 7y agoThat would mostly depend on the environmental impact of such a product, for me.
- ikeyany 7y agoDepends on the vegetarian. As a meat eater, lab-grown meat would convert me into a vegetarian in the sense that'd I'd be fine not eating animals.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y agoI'm the same. I've been reducing my meat consumption and buy as ethical and local as I can. I could never see myself going vegetarian / vegan but I'd definitely switch to lab-grown meat.
- 7y ago
- b_tterc_p 7y agoBeyond Rhino, Whale, and Mammoth would be nice. Beyond Human. Beyond Jeff Bezos. I mean, while we’re doing simple nutritional approximations with plant matter, I don’t see why we wouldn’t get more ambitious.
- tiles 7y agoThe copy writes itself: eat the rich.
- King-Aaron 7y agoBeyond:Soylent
- HuShifang 7y agoThere was actually a group of biohackers working on producing lab cheese a while back ("Real Vegan Cheese" IIRC) that included producing narwhal cheese as a stretch goal in their crowdfunding campaign. Sadly I don't think they've gotten even as far as cow thus far.
- portonoy 7y agoEw
- m3kw9 7y agoI eat fish because of the actual nutrition of fish is well known. The substitute usually just mimic taste and not both which would be orders more difficult.
- m3kw9 7y agoLater on they gonna make alternative to the alternatives
- asaph 7y agoThis is a growing space. Besides WildType[0] (mentioned in the article), there are at least 2 other companies working on lab grown fish: Finless Foods[1] and BlueNalu[2]. None of these companies have a product in the market yet, but things appear to be moving fast. [0] https://www.thewildtype.com/ https://www.thewildtype.com/ [1] https://finlessfoods.com/ https://finlessfoods.com/ [2] https://www.bluenalu.com/ https://www.bluenalu.com/
- skierbum 7y agoOdd that they made the comparison to Beyond Meat since they talked about cell culture fish, not really comparable to Beyond Meat which uses plants which we already know how to grow at scale. I think if they are looking for the Beyond Meat of salmon Terramino Foods (I think they rebranded as Prime Roots) is a much closer pick https://www.fastcompany.com/40559474/this-salmon-burger-tastes-like-the-real-thing-but-its-actually-fungi-and-algae https://www.fastcompany.com/40559474/this-salmon-burger-tast...
- sammorrowdrums 7y agoIf you do this, please call it Beyond the Sea
- kmlx 7y agoknowing that the US has very low quality of food, as well as extremely low food health, i would put any food that comes from the US as suspicious and warranting more tests before anything else. https://www.fastcompany.com/3025173/the-countries-with-the-best-and-worst-food-systems https://www.fastcompany.com/3025173/the-countries-with-the-b... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/good-thinking/201306/how-american-food-makes-us-fat-and-sick%3famp https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...