13 ms·
As Protesters Fill Hong Kong’s Streets, Businesses Are Alarmed, Too
- download13 7y agoGood
- jackfoxy 7y agoPaywall, as happens more and more frequently.
- msvan 7y agoUltimately, China owns Hong Kong and will subsume Hong Kong sooner or later. What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests)
- kevin_b_er 7y agoBecause the Hong Kongers had a belief in Basic Law. They had a belief in the universal human right to that No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. This the Communist Party of China rejects. The Hong Kongers believe that All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They believe that Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They make these protests because they stand for human rights that the CPC rejects. They wish to make it known to the CPC and to the world what they stand for. They may eventually fall to the cruelty of the CPC, but not just yet.
- sverige 7y agoThe trouble is that the Hong Kongers who could do something about it relocated to Vancouver twenty years ago.
- derefr 7y agoMostly: trade relationships other countries have that are specifically relationships with Hong Kong, rather than with China generally; where, sometimes, those other nations aren't even interested in trading with China generally, only with Hong Kong specifically. To the degree that China wants to maintain these relationships (and capture the GDP they represent), they treat Hong Kong as a peer. To the degree that China has built replacements for these relationships, they treat Hong Kong as a vassal.
- malandrew 7y agoAt this point, the only thing I can think of that might work is a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has but they need to be ready willing and able to carry it out. All the businesses that can move to another country should start doing so now.
- mintplant 7y ago> a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has I'm not sure what this refers to, and I'm having trouble finding anything about it. Could you clarify?
- kodz4 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland)
- malandrew 7y agoLots of explosives on critical infrastructure like bridges and tunnels. I just looked it up and it looks like they removed the last of them a few years ago so it's no longer a thing. Anyways, besides nuclear deterrence, a suicide pact is about the only thing I could think would work as defense against a major global military power.
- permatech 7y agoTell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy
- baybal2 7y ago> Tell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy Self-sabotage, mostly through destruction of critical transport infrastructure as front advances. The only thing I can come with HK, it is it being played in Lamma channel, if it can be blocked by scuttled ships. If HK want to go that way, it will not win much things other than time. If PLA will really launch an operation, it only has to turn off water pumps, and wait.
- nabla9 7y agoRule of law and the independence of the judiciary. Mainland China has no independent juridical system. Only reason to establish business there is if your business does something in China and you have to be there. You never use it as financial or business center for the operations in elsewhere. The success of Hong Kong and Singapore is based on good legal framework. They are ranked among the best judicial systems in Asia. Businesses feels safe run business from there. Abu Dhabi financial center decided to emulate them. They created fully independent common law framework to adjudicate civil and commercial disputes. It's possible that China decides to get rid of the law, but it will eventually bite them back financially.
- Terr_ 7y agoI think it's a telling statistic that since the handover, Hong Kong has gone from 18% of China's GDP to 3%. Granted, some of that may be the mainland playing games with GDP numbers, but HK isn't quite the same indispensable a golden-goose anymore. [0] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-18-percent-of-chinas-gdp-now-its-3-percent https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-1...
- nabla9 7y ago10% of Chinese exports are to HK. HK is tiny. The importance of HK for China is in international trade and finance.
- iav 7y agoI think Beijing cares about how the people of Taiwan perceive Hong Kong’s autonomy within China. If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity.
- eric-hu 7y ago> If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity. Is this even a question anymore? It seems like a given that Taiwan views Beijing as repressive, and the political differences in Taiwan are over how to deal with that reality: fight it or don't rock the boat. What I wonder is what happens when China realizes it has nothing to gain by feigning acceptance of one country with two systems.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.
- dmitrygr 7y ago> Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. Oh how I wish this mattered, but the UN has time and time again proven itself to be the world's most expensive essay-writing club and little more. What exactly are they going to do?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> What exactly are they going to do? Nothing. As you said, the UN is toothless. What having an agreement lodged with the UN does is properly escalate this into an international issue. That makes it easier for governments to react. Those reactions could be harshly-worded statements, diplomatic mediation or even the threat of sanctions.
- kazen44 7y agoPeople seem to mistake the UN for what is truely meant to be. The UN is not some government which can enforce agreements. Its mainly a "meeting room" for global and local powers to resolve conflict if they wish. At the end of the day, this is still hugely important to prevent unnecessary war or conflict, but the UN is still bound by the actual realities on the ground, not the legal framework that sits above the reality.
- fdjlasdfjl 7y agoAbsolutely. The League of Nations failed explicitly because Italy and Japan told everyone else to fuck off. The UN Security Council is the only real teeth which is why every superpower has a seat at the table. Its for fucking poor nations and nothing else.
- 7y ago
- b_tterc_p 7y agoDoes Hong Kong enable foreign companies to do business with a China in a way that is not replaceable?
- kenneth 7y agoI'm in Hong Kong and went to the protests today. This feels like a continuation of the '14 umbrella movement, which was ended by police force, and which left up pent-up anger in the whole population. It's the biggest protest since the march in '97 when HK was handed over to China from British rule. When I was there, the protests were peaceful, but you could certainly feel a tension building up, with the crowds gathering metal poles and bricks. I spoke to the police a few times and they were nice and friendly, but were doing their job. There is absolutely zero question that almost the entire HK population opposes the extradition bill which sparked this whole mess. Unfortunately, there's little that can be done… "one country two system" hasn't been abided to by China for a long time, and there's nothing the population or the Brits can do about it. (My perspective is that of a foreigner who recently moved here, not a life-long hongkonger. Feel free to ask me anything.)
- muricula 7y agoAre there options for recalling the legislature or triggering new elections, similar to a British vote of no-confidence?
- kenneth 7y agoNo, not really. The government has been stacked with pro-Beijing people, who have all the executive and legislative power. The only choice people have is to vote for new representative, from a slate of options picked out by the CCP. That was the reason for the 3-month long '14 protests. You can see their effect today.
- i_am_nomad 7y agoHow did the HK government get stacked that way, though - does the CCP formally pick out candidates, or is there something else going on?
- usaar333 7y agoThe legislature isn't fully democratically elected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko... In fact the pro-Beijing groups have never actually won an election, but always controlled Legco: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-democracy_camp_(Hong_Kong) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-democracy_camp_(Hong_Kon... (To be fair, similar but less extreme issues exist in the United States where executive and legislative power doesn't cleanly map to votes)
- taiwanboy 7y agoI think if you are a businessman/woman that have significant assets in China, you must be aware that the current Chinese government is fighting 4 wars right now: 1.) political conflict between xi jing Ping the new guards, and the old guards that control the state owned firms 2.) internal conflicts in xinjiang, Tibet, and Hong Kong 3.) near neighbor conflicts with Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia, and Australia 4.) trade war with US and its allies (Japan, EU, Canada, Mexico, etc) And the Chinese government doesn’t have the financial or the political assets to fight any of these wars, let alone all 4 at once. IMO it is losing all of them right now. So if you were a businessman, it is probably safe to move out of such a risky place for your assets
- ttflee 7y agoGovernment said it would fight at 'all cost'. And we the people are the cost. BTW, I put my bet on that PBSC member Han Zheng, who is in charge of Hong Kong affairs, would be scolded for mismanagement of on-going situation some day near future.
- baybal2 7y agoHan is a bloke in my opinion. One of the quietest senior government figures, who was very likely given a high post just for that. In line of premiership, the only person with political credentials is the last in line, fourth vice premier — Liu, and all others are pretty much "seat fillers" Take a note, Liu is the only somewhat senior bureaucrat other than Wang with a personal connection to Xi, but even he was given no access to real executive power.
- rrggrr 7y ago5.) Currency war featuring declining FX reserves and RMB devaluation. 6.) Economic war evidenced by domestic economic slowdown across most sectors, most recently autos. 7.) Influence war whereby increasing numbers of Asian and African countries are questioning China investment and loan agreements. That said, displacing China's preeminent role as the world's manufacturer and low cost supplier (still) for many products doesn't disappear overnight. They have plenty of standing and resources to wait out the remainder of Trump's administration and - they hope - to encounter China friendly leadership post-Trump.
- e2le 7y agoThe UK should have given the people of Hong Kong full citizenship before handing control back to China. It's a disgrace that we allow China to mistreat the people of a former British territory.
- erentz 7y agoThe people of Hong Kong should have been just as entitled to self determination as any other people, and establishing full democracy and self governance would've been the ideal solution. But China apparently made it clear in the 60s that it would retake the territories with force if Britain tried to do that, so it was forced to remain a territory until handover.
- julianlam 7y agoTo my knowledge, while this is not the case for all HK citizens, special considerations were given to professionals (at least, medical professionals), who wished to obtain UK citizenship. It might not have been full citizenship, however.
- Helloworldboy 7y agoBet they wish they had firearms
- usaar333 7y agoWhile some fault can be given to the UK for not pressing it harder, China was not willing to accept that (for ethnic Chinese; non-ethnic-Chinese weren't granted Chinese citizenship). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_(Overseas) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_(Overseas) Fun fact: China also blocked universal suffrage for HK pre-1997: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...
- oarabbus_ 7y ago> It's a disgrace that we allow China to mistreat the people of a former British territory. Do you know how many people of former British (and French, and Dutch, and German) territories are mistreated? Why the faux outrage here?
- diveanon 7y agoWithout smart phones and social media this could easily be 1989 all over again. I'm not a huge fan of social media, but its ability to hold governments accountable is one of the truly transformative aspects of it. I wish we could distill that aspect off it and discard the rest.
- dmitrygr 7y agoAccountable? What has this done to the Chinese government? They do not give half a fuck most likely. They've crushed bigger revolts, with more of the world's eyeballs watching. Social media just makes it easier to build this crowd. Sadly, that just provides a bigger crowd to crush.
- diveanon 7y agoHave they started crushing anyone with tanks yet? I think you are being hyperbolic and ignoring the impact of the entire world watching these protests in real time vs a couple of journalists taking candid photos from hotel rooms and calling in to their home offices.
- dmitrygr 7y agoThe world watched ukraine be split in half. The world IS watching the uyghur population in china being enslaved. The world's been doing an awful lot of watching lately...not much acting. What can the world do? Military action against china? Insane. More trade sanctions? what what will we wear and where will we get batteries and plastics?
- diveanon 7y agoYou are comparing direct military action to civilian protests. I don't like what happened in Ukraine, but there is no realistic resolution to that problem without starting a world war. I don't like it but that's how it is. The Uyghur's are another issue, and I feel like it supports my position more than yours. We wouldn't even know about what is happening to them without social media. The world is watching now. Same could be said for the Rohinga. The world sucks, and governments do evil shit all the time. The difference now is that they can't hide behind their lies.
- mLuby 7y agoQuestion: why is Taiwan okay with being involved in this bill? It seems strange since this bill is so much more beneficial to China than to Taiwan, and since if/when Taiwan returns to the fold it will likely be subjected to these same tactics. From the BBC: >The [bill] came after a 19-year-old Hong Kong man allegedly murdered his 20-year-old pregnant girlfriend while they were holidaying in Taiwan together in February last year. The man fled to Hong Kong and could not be extradited to Taiwan because the two do not have an extradition treaty. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48615161 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48615161
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> why is Taiwan okay with being involved in this bill? Taiwan supports the protesters [1]. Beijing threw Taiwan into the bill as a loose justification. [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses-support-for-hong-kong-extradition-bill-protests https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses...
- GuiA 7y agoTaiwan is not okay with the bill. From the article you linked: ”Taiwanese Prime Minister Tsai Ing-wen tweeted that her nation supported the protesters' "demands for freedom".”
- adriantam 7y agowow! "Prime minister" in order to avoid the fact that she is President.
- jubwub 7y agoNice trolling. I see the pro prc upvoters have kept you upvoted while he downvoted the other dude with the legit answer
- dang 7y agoActually I only just looked in on this thread. Whatever you saw was users, not mods. Pro-PRC? Have a look at the hostile media effect: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=%22hostile%20media%20effect%22 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... Also https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22hong%20kong%22%20points%3E30&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22hong%20kong%22%20points%3E3...
- squarefoot 7y agoMight this be an indirect hit against Trump' tariffs by the Chinese Govt?
- neonate 7y agohttp://archive.is/0lnMW http://archive.is/0lnMW
- olliej 7y agoBusinesses that were still acting like HK was not destined to become indistinguishable from China have only themselves to blame - especially since China stated that it no longer considered a treaty it signed with the British to be relevant (the irony of the non-british party reneging on a treaty signed with the British is not lost on me). Mostly I feel sorry for the actual citizens of HK :-(