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I'm just gonna vent for a sec out of envy: As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. My neighbo

I'm just gonna vent for a sec out of envy: As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. My neighbor is a welder, lives in a house the same as mine, doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime, doesn't spend weekends keeping up with the latest welding technology or practicing esoteric welding techniques just to pass an interview (as I sit here learning Rust because my team is starting to use it and practicing interview problems because I'm trying to transfer internally at the company). His boss probably doesn't pressure him to go give talks at welding conferences off hours as publicity to the company. Or come in on Saturday's to listen to presentations on what other parts of the welding org are working on. I'm tired of a career that consumes _my life_. I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. But I'm scared to do that in my industry, it just moves too fast and it's too easy to feel left behind, especially where I'm at in it--a weird limbo between programmer and manager where I'm expected to know how do to things without being allowed time to learn them. I loved programming when I was younger, and I still do, but my god I hate this industry. I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush. Once I pay down my house a bit and can afford to start over with my family somewhere else, I just might. /rant If any software folks who understand where I'm coming from wanna chime in on that, I'd love to hear about what you did about it... Or maybe I'm just a negative nancy, that's plausible too.

m0zg 7y ago
If your company requires interview to transfer _internally_, you should consider leaving. Microsoft was like that (maybe still is, I don't know), and it was easier to get a job elsewhere than to go to a desirable team.
- latencyloser 7y ago
  Microsoft definitely still did as of late 2017, when I was still there. You're absolutely right, it was easier to just get a job elsewhere and that was what I did! Hah. I'm trying to avoid that here, because I like the company, just hoping to work on a different product. Is a transfer interview not common elsewhere? Anyone know if Amazon or Google requires something like that?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - m0zg 7y ago
    Google and FB aren't like that. The benefit of the uniformly high hiring bar I guess. Don't know about Amazon.
    - rjayatilleka 7y ago
      Up to the team. I've "interviewed" for 4 internal transfers there, and I've had: - Three 1hr interviews, coding/system design/behavioral - Portfolio review - Talk to senior engineers on the team for a couple hours - None (I had people on the team vouch for me) EDIT: This is about Amazon, in retail and AWS.
  - Grue3 7y ago
    Yandex does, and they're known for very long multi-stage interviews too. Instead of transferring, I left and doubled my salary.
api 7y ago
High skill blue collar work is massively underrated. It also often allows you to live in places that are not ruinously expensive.
save_ferris 7y ago
I’m right there with you, there’s this weird insecurity that follows you around throughout your career, and it’s exhausting trying to satisfy it. That said, the trades just don’t pay as much as software does. I’ve thought once or twice about making a career change to that world, but it’s not nearly the kind of money we like to think it is. Sure, there’s a skill shortage, but a cursory look on indeed paints a less glamorous picture
- icxa 7y ago
  Not in the tech epicenters they don't, but they absolutely do in most of the country. I know an electrician that made 75k a year plus as much overtime as he possibly could want (also to show this isn't just a rare anecdote, the top 25% electricians make a median salary of 71k). If you are a solid tradesman or tradeswoman that knows how to a. show up on time, b. communicate well, c. do the job, congrats, you are already in high demand. That's at least equal if not more than most software devs get paid around where I am. I bet if we counted off hours worked and oncall time, and added hours to hours, the electrician would make more. That's 75k working a proper 8 hours a day and not a minute more.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    >top 25% electricians... median salary of $71k. Hold on. I’m not even sure what percentile this is referring to. It sounds like it has to be at least an 80th percentile salary among all electricians. If that’s the case, then 80% aren’t making $71k, so this sounds a lot worse than you make it out to be.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      That would be the 87.5th percentile figure.
      - jakemoshenko 7y ago
        What an absurd way to say it too. So bad, in fact, it may be intentionally dishonest.
tsomctl 7y ago
Counterpoint: he is destroying his body. He's pretty commonly lifting heavy things and exposing himself to hazardous chemicals. Depending on what kind of welding he's doing, he's breathing smoke from all kinds of different paints and oils. There are fume extractors/ventilation, but they don't remove everything. My dad and grandpa are both plumbers. My grandpa destroyed both his shoulders. He's had one replaced, and needs to have the other one done. My dad is well on his way to destroying his shoulders too.
- weirdstuff 7y ago
  I'm kind of tired of the trades "break your body" argument. I think just as many bodies routinely get destroyed in office environments—especially in tech. You know the trope. Sitting all the time under artificial light breathing nasty "inside" air staring at screens in open office environments with a lot of mental stress. Etc. In each case, blue collar or white, proper care can be taken to avoid these injuries. Especially in blue collar trades.
  - qvrjuec 7y ago
    I think your last point holds true, but it's really not an equivalent amount of stress you're putting on your body in an office. You can always go outside more after work and remain physically active to counteract the damage you're doing by sitting in an office all day, but if you're in a physically intensive trade, you can't avoid the damage you're doing by remaining less active after work.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - fjp 7y ago
      Also you're going to have less energy to do the physical activity you want to do. I paved roads for a summer at 18 and even though I was a very young energetic kid, I was barely getting anything out of my evening workouts or soccer games with friends after 10 hours outside shoveling asphalt.
  - 7y ago
d357r0y3r 7y ago
I feel like my life and career as a software guy is pretty cushy. I work probably 35 hours a week on average, remote, on a schedule I prefer. I have a ton of time left over for socializing, hobbies, TV, games, etc. But, this was a deliberate progression for me. And it could even get easier. I could do 20 hours a week of consulting work and still get by. I don't think I'd want to do that, but I could. I don't know where you live or what area you work in, but I think the thing you want actually is achievable, maybe with a pay cut, or maybe not even. The fact that you're having to learn to use Rust because it's all the sudden getting used on projects says to me that you're working at some place where people put way too much of themselves into work.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Yeah, there are so many entirely separate "software industries" where life is so completely different, it's crazy. If you hate your job, don't just accept "this is how the industry is". Look around a bit and you might find a corner of it that's more to your liking. Of course, some of the nicer parts are "by invitation only". Once you've proven yourself to the right people, you might get invited to work on the saner and more fun projects.
- rb808 7y ago
  How long have you been doing this? Did you keep working during big downturns & have your skills changed over time? I see way to many people thinking the job market of the last 5 years is normal.
  - d357r0y3r 7y ago
    6-7 years. Totally acknowledge that the gravy train could come to an end and make life harder. Hopefully that doesn't happen or most of the folks on here will be worse off!
- orblivion 7y ago
  > And it could even get easier. I could do 20 hours a week of consulting work and still get by. I don't think I'd want to do that, but I could. I'm assuming this is because you have built up a good contact list? Because as I understand, a lot of time spent in consulting is finding clients.
sct202 7y ago
Blue collar work isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Blue collar workers often have to pull forced overtime on weekends or weeks on end if the job needs it. I worked in a factory for the longest year of my life, and we had a rule in place that you could not be forced or voluntarily work more than 15 days in a row without a day off. And people regularly hit that limit of 15 days working 12 hours a day during busy season, sure they were getting paid overtime but it wears on you. And then if you ever need to switch jobs, you might end up on the bottom of the seniority totem pole and stuck on 2nd or 3rd shift on a non-traditional work week. We only shut down on 2 days of the year and that was Christmas day and Thanksgiving day for 24 hours.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Here in Germany, thanks to the agreements with the works council, there is no forced overtime without proper agreement and the respective compensation. Naturally not every company has such agreements in place, but even then, you are free to search for help on work law. Same applies to several other countries. Of course, the extent that people seek for help, depends on how much they can afford for support, or the consequences at the current employer if they eventually win. But all in all, most European law tends to be on employees side.
jorblumesea 7y ago
Alternatively, I know blue collar folks that are working crazy overtime, odd hours, sometimes 60-70 hours weeks to make close to software engineer salaries. I also know talented software engineers that work 40 hours a week and make x3-x4 what anything blue collar could pull in. It's hard to generalize an entire industry.
darpa_escapee 7y ago
> As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. Don't. As an office worker, you have to worry about carpal tunnel syndrome, your back going and cardiovascular disease from sitting. Manual labor means repetitive strain injuries and working in an environment that's conducive to hurting one's self. Those who do manual labor and aren't able to stack capital, become their own boss and hire others will have to worry about all of those things, and the effects of aging on their ability to do their job. Bodies deteriorate with time, and a single injury might prevent them from ever being able to work again when they hit their 40s, 50s or 60s. > I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush Find an agency or consultancy to work for. There are plenty of them using decades' old tech, maintaining their clients' projects, and "new and shiny" is actively avoided in favor of what's worked for years.
burlesona 7y ago
Just FWIW your experience doesn’t sound anything like the software jobs I’ve had. In fact all my programming jibs have been pretty close to your ideal. I’m currently in an enterprise job, but have done startups and consulting agencies as well. Only the startup had any long hours. I’d encourage you to get a new job. These days programmers are in extremely high demand, and you sound like you’ve gotten stuck working at a place with a non-ideal culture.
ip26 7y ago
There are software jobs all over the country if you don't mind working for ordinary salaries (instead of whatever nutso numbers NCG's are making at FAANG these days). Cheyenne itself isn't even that far from a variety of software.
whiddershins 7y ago
As the gp said though, you can enter those trades with a couple of years of apprenticeship, and I think you could do all the fun programming you desire on the side. Is that something you could actually do?
crimsonalucard 7y ago
Gotta pick the right role. There are lots of software jobs where you can just coast. I would know, I'm in a startup, in San Francisco.
onion2k 7y ago
99% of the software industry isn't like that either, of course. You're just paying the cost of working in the glamorous bit that funds landlords the best.
- latencyloser 7y ago
  You're probably right. Any recommendations on where I might look that's not as glamorous? Not being facetious (in case it sounds that way), just curious to have some recommendations.
antisemiotic 7y ago
>doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime That's not a problem with software, that's a problem with the crazy idea of "unpaid overtime". I'm from Europe, and honestly the first time I heard about it I thought that it must just mean it's legal in US not to pay extra for overtime.
Nursie 7y ago
I'm not going to call you a negative nancy, but I will say that you got a bad deal out of things, IMHO. I work in the UK, I probably do a 35-40 hour week depending on the week. I work from home two days of that week. I don't spend my weekends learning new stuff unless I have an itch I want to scratch. I don't really have a boss. I got into server-side programming from the get-go, it moves a lot more slowly in terms of tech than anything web/frontend-ish. I've picked up a lot of crypto/security knowledge along the way. I've managed to leverage that into a contract consultant-developer type of deal. I get paid well* My only real downsides are that my commute is long because I work in London 3 days per week, but that's really down to me as I refuse to live there. I have no job security at all as a contractor, but to be honest I consider job security in permanent employment to be an illusion much of the time. (*off the scale according to glassdoor, not sure how true that is, I know that contractors have their own scale. Compared to a silicon-valley salary it's still not that impressive, but then I don't have to put up with what you describe!)
viraptor 7y ago
All of this really depends on the work environment. > I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. Some people I worked with at HP did just that. Maybe try large, corporate environments?
commandlinefan 7y ago
Part of the reason you feel compelled to do all of that as a professional programmer is because you're facing intense competition from desperate people everywhere in the world. Skilled "tradesmen" aren't. There's a reason we do and they don't, but we dare not speak it's name.
- jgwil2 7y ago
  Are you referring to the fact that software work is more easily outsourced than trade work? If so, that hardly seems taboo.
turk73 7y ago
My dad was a welder. I can speak confidently on the subject. I am a software engineer with a long academic career (PhD). I have lived in both worlds. I even weld as a hobby and used to work in his shop off and on. For the most part, welding as a career sucks big time. It is a dirty, nasty, disgusting business and working as a welder can't possibly pay you enough to really ever get ahead unless you open your own business of some kind and have employees or something like that. It fucking blows compared to an office job writing software. Even if you can tolerate the horrible working conditions--my dad had to crawl down pipes inside power plants barely big enough to fit into and weld internal seams. He also had to climb into ridiculously high places dragging heavy gear and spend hours up there welding in 100 degree heat of course wearing long-sleeves and heavy clothing. It was a living hell. He did this usually for about $25/hr (1980s, early 1990s). It gets worse. Oh it get so much fucking worse: The people he had to work with were the most miserable lot on the planet. Drunks, druggies, wife beaters, guys with 20 DUI arrests, biker trash. These were his co-workers and constant companions. If you're the average of the 10 people who spend the most time around, he was doomed! Guys would go out to lunch and drink then come back and operate heavy machinery. OSHA? GTFO! They laughed at safety. No time for that on clock! People got hurt, went on Worker's Comp. I have dozens of stories from back then and I doubt it is any better today. Do you like unions? Because welders have to be in unions more often than not. Unions are just another power structure to lord over people with--the drunks run the unions. It's ugly business. They give the best jobs (foreman) to their buddies. Everyone else is SOL. Only 10 slots at a job in town? Guess you're working out of town this year. And so on. Find any other job than welding for a living.
vorotato 7y ago
You should quit a job that has you work crazy overtime if that's something you don't like. I don't _ever_ work more than 40 hours, religiously. I may not be the highest paid ever but I'm perfectly okay. Saving money, enjoying my time in the hammock in a modest house with a modest car.
bg4 7y ago
I feel the exact same way. I'm on a 5 year exit strategy to become a luthier.

m0zg 7y ago

If your company requires interview to transfer _internally_, you should consider leaving. Microsoft was like that (maybe still is, I don't know), and it was easier to get a job elsewhere than to go to a desirable team.

latencyloser 7y ago
Microsoft definitely still did as of late 2017, when I was still there. You're absolutely right, it was easier to just get a job elsewhere and that was what I did! Hah. I'm trying to avoid that here, because I like the company, just hoping to work on a different product. Is a transfer interview not common elsewhere? Anyone know if Amazon or Google requires something like that?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- m0zg 7y ago
  Google and FB aren't like that. The benefit of the uniformly high hiring bar I guess. Don't know about Amazon.
  - rjayatilleka 7y ago
    Up to the team. I've "interviewed" for 4 internal transfers there, and I've had: - Three 1hr interviews, coding/system design/behavioral - Portfolio review - Talk to senior engineers on the team for a couple hours - None (I had people on the team vouch for me) EDIT: This is about Amazon, in retail and AWS.
- Grue3 7y ago
  Yandex does, and they're known for very long multi-stage interviews too. Instead of transferring, I left and doubled my salary.

api 7y ago

High skill blue collar work is massively underrated. It also often allows you to live in places that are not ruinously expensive.

save_ferris 7y ago

I’m right there with you, there’s this weird insecurity that follows you around throughout your career, and it’s exhausting trying to satisfy it. That said, the trades just don’t pay as much as software does. I’ve thought once or twice about making a career change to that world, but it’s not nearly the kind of money we like to think it is. Sure, there’s a skill shortage, but a cursory look on indeed paints a less glamorous picture

icxa 7y ago
Not in the tech epicenters they don't, but they absolutely do in most of the country. I know an electrician that made 75k a year plus as much overtime as he possibly could want (also to show this isn't just a rare anecdote, the top 25% electricians make a median salary of 71k). If you are a solid tradesman or tradeswoman that knows how to a. show up on time, b. communicate well, c. do the job, congrats, you are already in high demand. That's at least equal if not more than most software devs get paid around where I am. I bet if we counted off hours worked and oncall time, and added hours to hours, the electrician would make more. That's 75k working a proper 8 hours a day and not a minute more.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  >top 25% electricians... median salary of $71k. Hold on. I’m not even sure what percentile this is referring to. It sounds like it has to be at least an 80th percentile salary among all electricians. If that’s the case, then 80% aren’t making $71k, so this sounds a lot worse than you make it out to be.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    That would be the 87.5th percentile figure.
    - jakemoshenko 7y ago
      What an absurd way to say it too. So bad, in fact, it may be intentionally dishonest.

tsomctl 7y ago

Counterpoint: he is destroying his body. He's pretty commonly lifting heavy things and exposing himself to hazardous chemicals. Depending on what kind of welding he's doing, he's breathing smoke from all kinds of different paints and oils. There are fume extractors/ventilation, but they don't remove everything. My dad and grandpa are both plumbers. My grandpa destroyed both his shoulders. He's had one replaced, and needs to have the other one done. My dad is well on his way to destroying his shoulders too.

weirdstuff 7y ago
I'm kind of tired of the trades "break your body" argument. I think just as many bodies routinely get destroyed in office environments—especially in tech. You know the trope. Sitting all the time under artificial light breathing nasty "inside" air staring at screens in open office environments with a lot of mental stress. Etc. In each case, blue collar or white, proper care can be taken to avoid these injuries. Especially in blue collar trades.
- qvrjuec 7y ago
  I think your last point holds true, but it's really not an equivalent amount of stress you're putting on your body in an office. You can always go outside more after work and remain physically active to counteract the damage you're doing by sitting in an office all day, but if you're in a physically intensive trade, you can't avoid the damage you're doing by remaining less active after work.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - fjp 7y ago
    Also you're going to have less energy to do the physical activity you want to do. I paved roads for a summer at 18 and even though I was a very young energetic kid, I was barely getting anything out of my evening workouts or soccer games with friends after 10 hours outside shoveling asphalt.
- 7y ago

d357r0y3r 7y ago

I feel like my life and career as a software guy is pretty cushy. I work probably 35 hours a week on average, remote, on a schedule I prefer. I have a ton of time left over for socializing, hobbies, TV, games, etc. But, this was a deliberate progression for me. And it could even get easier. I could do 20 hours a week of consulting work and still get by. I don't think I'd want to do that, but I could. I don't know where you live or what area you work in, but I think the thing you want actually is achievable, maybe with a pay cut, or maybe not even. The fact that you're having to learn to use Rust because it's all the sudden getting used on projects says to me that you're working at some place where people put way too much of themselves into work.

BurningFrog 7y ago
Yeah, there are so many entirely separate "software industries" where life is so completely different, it's crazy. If you hate your job, don't just accept "this is how the industry is". Look around a bit and you might find a corner of it that's more to your liking. Of course, some of the nicer parts are "by invitation only". Once you've proven yourself to the right people, you might get invited to work on the saner and more fun projects.
rb808 7y ago
How long have you been doing this? Did you keep working during big downturns & have your skills changed over time? I see way to many people thinking the job market of the last 5 years is normal.
- d357r0y3r 7y ago
  6-7 years. Totally acknowledge that the gravy train could come to an end and make life harder. Hopefully that doesn't happen or most of the folks on here will be worse off!
orblivion 7y ago
> And it could even get easier. I could do 20 hours a week of consulting work and still get by. I don't think I'd want to do that, but I could. I'm assuming this is because you have built up a good contact list? Because as I understand, a lot of time spent in consulting is finding clients.

sct202 7y ago

Blue collar work isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Blue collar workers often have to pull forced overtime on weekends or weeks on end if the job needs it. I worked in a factory for the longest year of my life, and we had a rule in place that you could not be forced or voluntarily work more than 15 days in a row without a day off. And people regularly hit that limit of 15 days working 12 hours a day during busy season, sure they were getting paid overtime but it wears on you. And then if you ever need to switch jobs, you might end up on the bottom of the seniority totem pole and stuck on 2nd or 3rd shift on a non-traditional work week. We only shut down on 2 days of the year and that was Christmas day and Thanksgiving day for 24 hours.

pjmlp 7y ago
Here in Germany, thanks to the agreements with the works council, there is no forced overtime without proper agreement and the respective compensation. Naturally not every company has such agreements in place, but even then, you are free to search for help on work law. Same applies to several other countries. Of course, the extent that people seek for help, depends on how much they can afford for support, or the consequences at the current employer if they eventually win. But all in all, most European law tends to be on employees side.

jorblumesea 7y ago

Alternatively, I know blue collar folks that are working crazy overtime, odd hours, sometimes 60-70 hours weeks to make close to software engineer salaries. I also know talented software engineers that work 40 hours a week and make x3-x4 what anything blue collar could pull in. It's hard to generalize an entire industry.

darpa_escapee 7y ago

> As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. Don't. As an office worker, you have to worry about carpal tunnel syndrome, your back going and cardiovascular disease from sitting. Manual labor means repetitive strain injuries and working in an environment that's conducive to hurting one's self. Those who do manual labor and aren't able to stack capital, become their own boss and hire others will have to worry about all of those things, and the effects of aging on their ability to do their job. Bodies deteriorate with time, and a single injury might prevent them from ever being able to work again when they hit their 40s, 50s or 60s. > I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush Find an agency or consultancy to work for. There are plenty of them using decades' old tech, maintaining their clients' projects, and "new and shiny" is actively avoided in favor of what's worked for years.

burlesona 7y ago

Just FWIW your experience doesn’t sound anything like the software jobs I’ve had. In fact all my programming jibs have been pretty close to your ideal. I’m currently in an enterprise job, but have done startups and consulting agencies as well. Only the startup had any long hours. I’d encourage you to get a new job. These days programmers are in extremely high demand, and you sound like you’ve gotten stuck working at a place with a non-ideal culture.

ip26 7y ago

There are software jobs all over the country if you don't mind working for ordinary salaries (instead of whatever nutso numbers NCG's are making at FAANG these days). Cheyenne itself isn't even that far from a variety of software.

whiddershins 7y ago

As the gp said though, you can enter those trades with a couple of years of apprenticeship, and I think you could do all the fun programming you desire on the side. Is that something you could actually do?

crimsonalucard 7y ago

Gotta pick the right role. There are lots of software jobs where you can just coast. I would know, I'm in a startup, in San Francisco.

onion2k 7y ago

99% of the software industry isn't like that either, of course. You're just paying the cost of working in the glamorous bit that funds landlords the best.

latencyloser 7y ago
You're probably right. Any recommendations on where I might look that's not as glamorous? Not being facetious (in case it sounds that way), just curious to have some recommendations.

antisemiotic 7y ago

>doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime That's not a problem with software, that's a problem with the crazy idea of "unpaid overtime". I'm from Europe, and honestly the first time I heard about it I thought that it must just mean it's legal in US not to pay extra for overtime.

Nursie 7y ago

I'm not going to call you a negative nancy, but I will say that you got a bad deal out of things, IMHO. I work in the UK, I probably do a 35-40 hour week depending on the week. I work from home two days of that week. I don't spend my weekends learning new stuff unless I have an itch I want to scratch. I don't really have a boss. I got into server-side programming from the get-go, it moves a lot more slowly in terms of tech than anything web/frontend-ish. I've picked up a lot of crypto/security knowledge along the way. I've managed to leverage that into a contract consultant-developer type of deal. I get paid well* My only real downsides are that my commute is long because I work in London 3 days per week, but that's really down to me as I refuse to live there. I have no job security at all as a contractor, but to be honest I consider job security in permanent employment to be an illusion much of the time. (*off the scale according to glassdoor, not sure how true that is, I know that contractors have their own scale. Compared to a silicon-valley salary it's still not that impressive, but then I don't have to put up with what you describe!)

viraptor 7y ago

All of this really depends on the work environment. > I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. Some people I worked with at HP did just that. Maybe try large, corporate environments?

commandlinefan 7y ago

Part of the reason you feel compelled to do all of that as a professional programmer is because you're facing intense competition from desperate people everywhere in the world. Skilled "tradesmen" aren't. There's a reason we do and they don't, but we dare not speak it's name.

jgwil2 7y ago
Are you referring to the fact that software work is more easily outsourced than trade work? If so, that hardly seems taboo.

turk73 7y ago

My dad was a welder. I can speak confidently on the subject. I am a software engineer with a long academic career (PhD). I have lived in both worlds. I even weld as a hobby and used to work in his shop off and on. For the most part, welding as a career sucks big time. It is a dirty, nasty, disgusting business and working as a welder can't possibly pay you enough to really ever get ahead unless you open your own business of some kind and have employees or something like that. It fucking blows compared to an office job writing software. Even if you can tolerate the horrible working conditions--my dad had to crawl down pipes inside power plants barely big enough to fit into and weld internal seams. He also had to climb into ridiculously high places dragging heavy gear and spend hours up there welding in 100 degree heat of course wearing long-sleeves and heavy clothing. It was a living hell. He did this usually for about $25/hr (1980s, early 1990s). It gets worse. Oh it get so much fucking worse: The people he had to work with were the most miserable lot on the planet. Drunks, druggies, wife beaters, guys with 20 DUI arrests, biker trash. These were his co-workers and constant companions. If you're the average of the 10 people who spend the most time around, he was doomed! Guys would go out to lunch and drink then come back and operate heavy machinery. OSHA? GTFO! They laughed at safety. No time for that on clock! People got hurt, went on Worker's Comp. I have dozens of stories from back then and I doubt it is any better today. Do you like unions? Because welders have to be in unions more often than not. Unions are just another power structure to lord over people with--the drunks run the unions. It's ugly business. They give the best jobs (foreman) to their buddies. Everyone else is SOL. Only 10 slots at a job in town? Guess you're working out of town this year. And so on. Find any other job than welding for a living.

vorotato 7y ago

You should quit a job that has you work crazy overtime if that's something you don't like. I don't _ever_ work more than 40 hours, religiously. I may not be the highest paid ever but I'm perfectly okay. Saving money, enjoying my time in the hammock in a modest house with a modest car.

bg4 7y ago

I feel the exact same way. I'm on a 5 year exit strategy to become a luthier.