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Tiananmen 30 years on – China's great act of 'forgettance'

283 points by sys_64738 7y ago

JansjoFromIkea 7y ago
The Gate of Heavenly Peace is a pretty great thorough documentary on the events of June 1989. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg Got a lot of criticism for misrepresenting some people but it seemed surprisingly well balanced to me. Would love to hear some expanded critiques of it if anyone has one here.
vikramkr 7y ago
The amount of work they do to bury it is a good sign for the movement against authoritarianism. It means that the government is still scared of the event and what it signifies. As long as they're scared of Tiananmen and actively fight it, it still has power and the fight isn't over. When the government stops trying to suppress it is when the Tiananmen movement truly fails.
- Gatsky 7y ago
  Consider that their goal is for young Chinese to not be aware of Tiananmen, which they are close to achieving. What people outside of China think is much less of a concern.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    How many are unaware, and how many pretend to be unaware because they know they're expected to be unaware?
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      I think the central government now advocates apathy rather than forgettance. Young people get apathy, so it’s an easier sell.
    - komali2 7y ago
      Here's a weeks long thread where I engage in a conversation with a (allegedly) Chinese student about such topics. For those that have bought into the propaganda, the impression is generally that the government put down a dangerous riot that was killing innocents. Start of the Twitter uh "thread" (not sure how to refer to these) https://twitter.com/Chinahnpy/status/1129327748743409664?s=20 https://twitter.com/Chinahnpy/status/1129327748743409664?s=2... Here's the start of some tiananmen discussion: https://twitter.com/komali_2/status/1133764941675094016?s=20 https://twitter.com/komali_2/status/1133764941675094016?s=20
      - westiseast 7y ago
        Yes, there’s a lot of people who know nothing of Tiananmen at all, but often those that do would characterize it as a riot by agitators who forced the governments hand.
  - tzs 7y ago
    I wonder what would happen if the US made a requirement that to get a student visa to study here, applicants from China have to take and pass a history course about Tiananmen Square and the subsequent efforts to cover it up? There are around 360k Chinese students in the US. If China didn't do anything to counter it, that would be a lot of educated young people eventually returning to China to take influential jobs who are aware of Tiananmen. Would China go so far as to stop allowing their students to study in the US to stop that? Or would they just to to convince the students that the US is lying?
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      The students that make it to the USA mostly know things like that already. Their ideological positions, one way or the other, are not influenced much by ignorance.
      - jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
        I've met several Chinese students whose personal Tiananmen epiphanies were in the States, not on the mainland.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Epiphanies and knowledge are different things.
    - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
      Chinese students are cash cows for universities. Wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to argue against complying with any such mandate that endangered this rather important profit center. As far as the Chinese government goes, they could require pre and post briefings for all students studying in the United States. It wouldn't avoid the students being exposed to what happen in Tiananmen Square but under the right conditions, with the right carrots and sticks, they could be made to either be skeptical or disinterested in the truth. As Upton Sinclair said 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' At Auburn University in the late 90s there was a seemingly random murder of a Chinese grad student and his wife. The local police were mystified because it didn't match a typical homicide and there appeared to be no motive, not even robbery. Eventually it turned out that the student was the son of a important regional politician back in China. His enemies had the son and daughter-in-law murdered in the United States to send him a message. Similar demonstrations of the long reach of the Chinese government could be made to students studying in the United States if they as a group started creating difficulties for the official narrative.
- icxa 7y ago
  Kind of related, but Turkey just as much tries to bury/deny the Armenian-Greek-Syriac genocide over 100 years later. I sincerely hope that any resolution that would admit Turkey into the EU would involve admitting and paying the price for those atrocities.
  - vikramkr 7y ago
    It's not truly forgotten when there's this much effort to try to forget it, that applies to both Tiananmen and the genocide. I remain (perhaps foolishly) optimistic that these movements to gain recognition for events and fight for democracy are strong enough that when one of these governments finally falters in their fight, even for a second, they'll be able to come back in full force
  - inawarminister 7y ago
    How about the concurrent/earlier genocides of Turks and other Muslim ethnicities in the Balkans and Hellas supported by the Great Powers of the era? Those are also related. Action and reaction, as it is. Edit: both are, after all, caused by religious nationalism. Let's not ignore one of them.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    As a Turk, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of people in Turkey are aware of the way the late Ottoman Empire treated certain ethnic minorities. What they deny is the “genocide” classification (and the responsibility and repercussions that would come with accepting it).
    - icxa 7y ago
      As a Greek with Armenian in laws, my grandparents and great grandparents would quite literally spit in the face of someone who tries to tell them that wasn't genocide, and deservedly so. I have family alive right now that remember what happened then. If we can't call what was carried out by Turks in the early 1915's throughout WW1 genocide, we might as well retire that word from language all together.
- mycall 7y ago
  There is a new wave of activism in China that is being accidentally kick started from where the top leaders least expected it... Marxist study sessions! https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2143841/new-class-struggle-chinese-party-members-get-back https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/21... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-xi-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-...
  - icebraining 7y ago
    I doubt the leaders didn't expect it; Lenin had the same problem, and wrote a whole book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Left-Wing%22_Communism:_An_Infantile_Disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Left-Wing%22_Communism:_An_...
  - analyst74 7y ago
    So for a while the communitsts were the good guys, they unite factory workers against evil factory owners; then capitalists became the good guy, who pay worker fairly and champion human rights; are we seeing a coming back of communists being the good guys again?
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
"And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting..." (Obviously from 1984)
braythwayt 7y ago
In related news, Twitter is alleged to have suspended accounts that have been critical of the Chinese regime on the eve of the anniversary. The suspended accounts include Western residents. https://twitter.com/YaxueCao/status/1134607732718407680 https://twitter.com/YaxueCao/status/1134607732718407680
- deogeo 7y ago
  > Account suspended. Twitter suspends accounts that violate the Twitter Rules. The vaguest possible reason. The only way this censorship could be more cowardly, is if the account was shown as missing. Or if it was shadow-banned, or pushed down in search rankings. Worse than censorship, is hiding that censorship took place, and why it took place.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    When you have absolutely objective rules, bad actors can manipulate things in bad faith. That’s much the same as when companies try to establish objective management-by-metrics, it almost never turns out well, even though it seems to be “fair” in the sense that the rules are equally applied to all circumstances. When you have subjective rules, you have a two-edged sword. When bad actors try to game the system, moderators/the judiciary/the benevolent dictator can step in and say, “I see what you’re up to, and I’m stopping it here.” But of course, if you have bad actors enforcing rules that have subjective application, they can apply them unequally and create injustice. For example, if the police have the discretion whether to charge teenagers with a crime for possession of weed, they can overwhelmingly choose to charge members of one socioeconomic group, while overwhelmingly giving a pass to another. My claim is that rigid rules are subject to gaming by bad actors subject to the rules, and flexible rules are subject to gaming by bad actors enforcing the rules. Beyond ideological beliefs that “fairly applied” is more important than “just outcomes,” it comes down to looking at your threat model. In the case of Twitter, I consider Twitter’s own management to be the biggest threat. Whereas with Hacker News, I trust the benevolence of its dictators, and consider bad faith users to be the biggest threat. JM2C.
    - 7y ago
robertAngst 7y ago
EDIT: What good can come out of topics like this? Where else do people talk about this with their peers? Could we discuss the dilemma of a Authoritarian Regime that could save the world from Freedom's environmental destruction? I know this is a very loaded topic, but sharing ideas are good. The only reason I can see government/regulation/control being a good thing, is centralized decision making can preserve our genes for future generations rather than Individuals acting independently in their own interests until a Tragedy of the Commons even occurs and humans go extinct like 99.9% of life on earth. As a note, I'm a pretty staunch libertarian, but I am reasonable and wanted to hear this discussed. Is a 'China-like' control for a better future a good idea?
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  China helped themselves and the world massively with the one child policy, which arguably would have been impossible in a 'free country'. In the meantime we're 7 billions and projected to reach 11 billions by the end of the century. We already can't seem to protect the environment today so I'm not holding my breath with a 40% population increase.
  - yters 7y ago
    China maintains their one or two child policy through forced abortions, which is murdering a child. If murdering people is an ok method for achieving the goal of protecting the environment (in a suitably 'sanitary' manner), then we might as well focus our efforts on wiping out the most fecund populations (India and Africa) with 'sanitary' methods like contraception and abortion. Oh wait, maybe we are already doing that...
    - CinchWrench 7y ago
      Not everyone shares your value system. (I do, but that's beside the point.) You never know when the person you're responding to might be Pentti Linkola.
      - 7y ago
justicezyx 7y ago
Funny that before 64, China is moving to opening up economically and politically, and after that only economically. And later a lot of the original leaders revealed they are clueless in how to demand proper political reform at the original movement (partly showing as these people become nobody gradually, and partly as their words and deeds gradually descend to those of celebrity or businessmen). In the end are 64 leaders and the political powers behind it actually missed the opportunity to creat the New Democratic super power that still would today challenge us, but politically close to us as well? I think so. china is vastly big and diverse. Things moving fast. Before 1949 China is a mix of capitalism, feudalism, foreign colonist, etc, the economy is agriculture centered. 1949 to 1970s, China did a lot of things to reform the nation to be a unified nation in all aspects. Politically, militarily, culture, education, economically, etc. On ward Mao died, Deng took a very diplomatic and politically mature move to turn the economy to capitalism heavy. I.e., he claim that the way you do business has nothing to do with your political system. That’s of course a facade, or even a lie. Then comes 64, they apparently heavily influenced by Ussa, and demanded similar changes. The Chinese people are not ready for that, the incumbent powers (both those just took power and want a more western democratic, and those diehard anti west ) don’t want that. And they promptly and skillfully shut it down. China’s road to reform suddenly took a nose dive, from politically and economically moving the same direction, to politically heavy guarded towards anti western democracy. Just like the guy coming to a big Corp and try to instate use strategic shift, by being passionate and fast acting, that person destroys the minimal confidence and trust people had with the new system. Sure, 64 is well intended, but is it a positive event? No, sorry.
- human20190310 7y ago
  Meaning of "64" according to Wikipedia: > alternative names have sprung up to describe the events on the Internet, such as May 35th, VIIV (Roman numerals for 6 and 4) and Eight Squared (i.e. 8^2=64).
  - lordnacho 7y ago
    The 6th month, the 4th day. You can ask a Chinese person what the events if the 6th month and 4th day were.
remote_phone 7y ago
This is what happens when search engines “forget” the past. Regimes completely control their people and people believe what their regime wants them to believe. This is what Google wants to perpetuate with Dragonfly. All for money.
hootergie 7y ago
Don't let Tianamen take your eyes off what the Chinese are doing right now. In Xinjiang prison camps. Non-Han (mostly Moslem and Christian) Chinese citizens are imprisoned indefinitely in "reeducation" programs while simultaneously a campaign encouraging Han Chinese to migrate to Xinjiang is underway. The situation resembles Stalin's migration and imprisonment programs that killed off whole segments of Russian society during his reign. Included are forced organ donation (death): "Proof of China’s Organ Harvesting Found in Xinjiang": http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ "Chinese Authorities Draw Blood from Uyghurs in Xinjiang to Build Secret Organ Matching Database": http://chinascope.org/archives/13583 http://chinascope.org/archives/13583
- komali2 7y ago
  This was downvoted to death within 6 minutes. Downvoters: why? Do you have evidence that contradicts this? Wikipedia has compiled a shitload of sources reporting on this subject. It is happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... The existence of the reeducation camps is also well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps?wp...
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    This was downvoted to death within 6 minutes. Downvoters: why? Perhaps people think it's off-topic, and distracts from the discussion at hand.
    - analyst74 7y ago
      I remember having an online discussion about how the Chinese tourist stereotype is inaccurate, and how it affects Chinese-looking people in the west. Then a rando jumped in and listed all the evil things CCP has done, completely irrelevant to the topic at discussion. Having a discussion about anything China is becoming increasingly difficult.
jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
Given that there are so many Chinese students, tourists, and businessmen abroad and exposed to foreign media these days, how does these Chinese government manage to still keep a lid on this?
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  Propaganda works. You see it in authoritarian regimes and in western democracies.
- jjcc 7y ago
  That's exactly the question everybody who accept the interpretation from BBC and all western media should ask. In addtion, let's put the moral issue aside but consider only the intellgence of a regime that already achieved so many nation management goals and ask next question: Is the regime so stupid to believe the cover up works while keep the openness? The alternative theory/hypotheis which can explain much better: The ban never really mean to keep the lid which is impossible. In fact, most educated Chinese know(And with a little diffrent view today from westerners and their own thoughts 30 years ago. But that's another topic). The real purpose of blocking information was an preemptive measure to disable the hidden agenda covered under those memorial activities which fool most people to believe that they are only memorial activities.
- odiroot 7y ago
  It's a really complicated problem. All Chinese people I've met in Europe (20 - 30 year olds) are aware of the story with all the gruesome details. They have no problems talking about this with foreigners. They're a bit afraid to talk about it in China but it's not like everyone would report you for that (Orwell style). On the other hand they sincerely believe CCP would rule forever, or at least until they die. They see no reason to rock the boat and potentially risk their careers or safety. China is growing and developing really fast now and (from what I've heard) care more about the usual problems of a middle class than some historical tragedy.
  - jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
    This is a good book, a modern day Chinese version of 1984, and it dives right into the feigned ignorance that mainlanders are so practiced at these days. Written around a decade ago, before the rise of Chairman-For-Life Xi Jinping, but it was quite predictive of the changes which have occurred over the past few years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
I was doing consulting work for the IOC when cities were bidding for the 2008 Summer Olympics. BOCOG submitted as part of their bid using Tiananmen Square as the site for Beach Volleyball. The IOC had to tell them it was inappropriate and to change that part of their bid. They really do want to pretend nothing happened there.
- canjobear 7y ago
  Another way of looking at it: even for Chinese people who are aware of and care about the incident, Tiananmen Square is still a famous and significant place in its own right and is not primarily associated with that particular event. They don’t call it the “Tiananmen Square” incident in Chinese, because many other things also happened there.
  - hnnmzh 7y ago
    Exactly! This is an example of the many cognitive biases. To people live outside of China, that event is all they know about Tiananmen. But to a Chinese person especially a local resident, it's a place of many memories - a big playground for kids, a hub for changing buses, the entrance to Forbidden City/Zhongshan (Sun Yat Sen) Park/National Museum, a pathway to a shopping quarter, and of course a place full of annoying tourists. No one is trying to hide anything. It's simply a wonderful venue for olympic games. The view would have been amazing! You will never get an opportunity like that again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQke3dJdNU&feature=youtu.be&t=486 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQke3dJdNU&feature=youtu.be... (again please ignore those awkward tourists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYf_OsxLeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYf_OsxLeM
jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
I recommend all of you to read this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years
blaesus 7y ago
By the way, Chinese "barrage" (弹幕） video/livestream sites (think YouTube, but comments fly over the pictures of the videos like bullets, hence the name), including Bilibili (listed on Nasdaq), Acfun and Douyu, blocked the barrage-comment functionality from around May 30 to June 6. YouTube-style static comments are still allowed though.

283 points by sys_64738 7y ago

The Gate of Heavenly Peace is a pretty great thorough documentary on the events of June 1989. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg Got a lot of criticism for misrepresenting some people but it seemed surprisingly well balanced to me. Would love to hear some expanded critiques of it if anyone has one here.

vikramkr 7y ago

The amount of work they do to bury it is a good sign for the movement against authoritarianism. It means that the government is still scared of the event and what it signifies. As long as they're scared of Tiananmen and actively fight it, it still has power and the fight isn't over. When the government stops trying to suppress it is when the Tiananmen movement truly fails.

Gatsky 7y ago
Consider that their goal is for young Chinese to not be aware of Tiananmen, which they are close to achieving. What people outside of China think is much less of a concern.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  How many are unaware, and how many pretend to be unaware because they know they're expected to be unaware?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    I think the central government now advocates apathy rather than forgettance. Young people get apathy, so it’s an easier sell.
  - komali2 7y ago
    Here's a weeks long thread where I engage in a conversation with a (allegedly) Chinese student about such topics. For those that have bought into the propaganda, the impression is generally that the government put down a dangerous riot that was killing innocents. Start of the Twitter uh "thread" (not sure how to refer to these) https://twitter.com/Chinahnpy/status/1129327748743409664?s=20 https://twitter.com/Chinahnpy/status/1129327748743409664?s=2... Here's the start of some tiananmen discussion: https://twitter.com/komali_2/status/1133764941675094016?s=20 https://twitter.com/komali_2/status/1133764941675094016?s=20
    - westiseast 7y ago
      Yes, there’s a lot of people who know nothing of Tiananmen at all, but often those that do would characterize it as a riot by agitators who forced the governments hand.
- tzs 7y ago
  I wonder what would happen if the US made a requirement that to get a student visa to study here, applicants from China have to take and pass a history course about Tiananmen Square and the subsequent efforts to cover it up? There are around 360k Chinese students in the US. If China didn't do anything to counter it, that would be a lot of educated young people eventually returning to China to take influential jobs who are aware of Tiananmen. Would China go so far as to stop allowing their students to study in the US to stop that? Or would they just to to convince the students that the US is lying?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    The students that make it to the USA mostly know things like that already. Their ideological positions, one way or the other, are not influenced much by ignorance.
    - jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
      I've met several Chinese students whose personal Tiananmen epiphanies were in the States, not on the mainland.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Epiphanies and knowledge are different things.
  - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
    Chinese students are cash cows for universities. Wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to argue against complying with any such mandate that endangered this rather important profit center. As far as the Chinese government goes, they could require pre and post briefings for all students studying in the United States. It wouldn't avoid the students being exposed to what happen in Tiananmen Square but under the right conditions, with the right carrots and sticks, they could be made to either be skeptical or disinterested in the truth. As Upton Sinclair said 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' At Auburn University in the late 90s there was a seemingly random murder of a Chinese grad student and his wife. The local police were mystified because it didn't match a typical homicide and there appeared to be no motive, not even robbery. Eventually it turned out that the student was the son of a important regional politician back in China. His enemies had the son and daughter-in-law murdered in the United States to send him a message. Similar demonstrations of the long reach of the Chinese government could be made to students studying in the United States if they as a group started creating difficulties for the official narrative.
icxa 7y ago
Kind of related, but Turkey just as much tries to bury/deny the Armenian-Greek-Syriac genocide over 100 years later. I sincerely hope that any resolution that would admit Turkey into the EU would involve admitting and paying the price for those atrocities.
- vikramkr 7y ago
  It's not truly forgotten when there's this much effort to try to forget it, that applies to both Tiananmen and the genocide. I remain (perhaps foolishly) optimistic that these movements to gain recognition for events and fight for democracy are strong enough that when one of these governments finally falters in their fight, even for a second, they'll be able to come back in full force
- inawarminister 7y ago
  How about the concurrent/earlier genocides of Turks and other Muslim ethnicities in the Balkans and Hellas supported by the Great Powers of the era? Those are also related. Action and reaction, as it is. Edit: both are, after all, caused by religious nationalism. Let's not ignore one of them.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  As a Turk, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of people in Turkey are aware of the way the late Ottoman Empire treated certain ethnic minorities. What they deny is the “genocide” classification (and the responsibility and repercussions that would come with accepting it).
  - icxa 7y ago
    As a Greek with Armenian in laws, my grandparents and great grandparents would quite literally spit in the face of someone who tries to tell them that wasn't genocide, and deservedly so. I have family alive right now that remember what happened then. If we can't call what was carried out by Turks in the early 1915's throughout WW1 genocide, we might as well retire that word from language all together.
mycall 7y ago
There is a new wave of activism in China that is being accidentally kick started from where the top leaders least expected it... Marxist study sessions! https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2143841/new-class-struggle-chinese-party-members-get-back https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/21... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-xi-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/world/asia/china-maoists-...
- icebraining 7y ago
  I doubt the leaders didn't expect it; Lenin had the same problem, and wrote a whole book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Left-Wing%22_Communism:_An_Infantile_Disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Left-Wing%22_Communism:_An_...
- analyst74 7y ago
  So for a while the communitsts were the good guys, they unite factory workers against evil factory owners; then capitalists became the good guy, who pay worker fairly and champion human rights; are we seeing a coming back of communists being the good guys again?

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

"And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting..." (Obviously from 1984)

braythwayt 7y ago

In related news, Twitter is alleged to have suspended accounts that have been critical of the Chinese regime on the eve of the anniversary. The suspended accounts include Western residents. https://twitter.com/YaxueCao/status/1134607732718407680 https://twitter.com/YaxueCao/status/1134607732718407680

deogeo 7y ago
> Account suspended. Twitter suspends accounts that violate the Twitter Rules. The vaguest possible reason. The only way this censorship could be more cowardly, is if the account was shown as missing. Or if it was shadow-banned, or pushed down in search rankings. Worse than censorship, is hiding that censorship took place, and why it took place.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  When you have absolutely objective rules, bad actors can manipulate things in bad faith. That’s much the same as when companies try to establish objective management-by-metrics, it almost never turns out well, even though it seems to be “fair” in the sense that the rules are equally applied to all circumstances. When you have subjective rules, you have a two-edged sword. When bad actors try to game the system, moderators/the judiciary/the benevolent dictator can step in and say, “I see what you’re up to, and I’m stopping it here.” But of course, if you have bad actors enforcing rules that have subjective application, they can apply them unequally and create injustice. For example, if the police have the discretion whether to charge teenagers with a crime for possession of weed, they can overwhelmingly choose to charge members of one socioeconomic group, while overwhelmingly giving a pass to another. My claim is that rigid rules are subject to gaming by bad actors subject to the rules, and flexible rules are subject to gaming by bad actors enforcing the rules. Beyond ideological beliefs that “fairly applied” is more important than “just outcomes,” it comes down to looking at your threat model. In the case of Twitter, I consider Twitter’s own management to be the biggest threat. Whereas with Hacker News, I trust the benevolence of its dictators, and consider bad faith users to be the biggest threat. JM2C.
  - 7y ago

robertAngst 7y ago

EDIT: What good can come out of topics like this? Where else do people talk about this with their peers? Could we discuss the dilemma of a Authoritarian Regime that could save the world from Freedom's environmental destruction? I know this is a very loaded topic, but sharing ideas are good. The only reason I can see government/regulation/control being a good thing, is centralized decision making can preserve our genes for future generations rather than Individuals acting independently in their own interests until a Tragedy of the Commons even occurs and humans go extinct like 99.9% of life on earth. As a note, I'm a pretty staunch libertarian, but I am reasonable and wanted to hear this discussed. Is a 'China-like' control for a better future a good idea?

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
China helped themselves and the world massively with the one child policy, which arguably would have been impossible in a 'free country'. In the meantime we're 7 billions and projected to reach 11 billions by the end of the century. We already can't seem to protect the environment today so I'm not holding my breath with a 40% population increase.
- yters 7y ago
  China maintains their one or two child policy through forced abortions, which is murdering a child. If murdering people is an ok method for achieving the goal of protecting the environment (in a suitably 'sanitary' manner), then we might as well focus our efforts on wiping out the most fecund populations (India and Africa) with 'sanitary' methods like contraception and abortion. Oh wait, maybe we are already doing that...
  - CinchWrench 7y ago
    Not everyone shares your value system. (I do, but that's beside the point.) You never know when the person you're responding to might be Pentti Linkola.
    - 7y ago

justicezyx 7y ago

Funny that before 64, China is moving to opening up economically and politically, and after that only economically. And later a lot of the original leaders revealed they are clueless in how to demand proper political reform at the original movement (partly showing as these people become nobody gradually, and partly as their words and deeds gradually descend to those of celebrity or businessmen). In the end are 64 leaders and the political powers behind it actually missed the opportunity to creat the New Democratic super power that still would today challenge us, but politically close to us as well? I think so. china is vastly big and diverse. Things moving fast. Before 1949 China is a mix of capitalism, feudalism, foreign colonist, etc, the economy is agriculture centered. 1949 to 1970s, China did a lot of things to reform the nation to be a unified nation in all aspects. Politically, militarily, culture, education, economically, etc. On ward Mao died, Deng took a very diplomatic and politically mature move to turn the economy to capitalism heavy. I.e., he claim that the way you do business has nothing to do with your political system. That’s of course a facade, or even a lie. Then comes 64, they apparently heavily influenced by Ussa, and demanded similar changes. The Chinese people are not ready for that, the incumbent powers (both those just took power and want a more western democratic, and those diehard anti west ) don’t want that. And they promptly and skillfully shut it down. China’s road to reform suddenly took a nose dive, from politically and economically moving the same direction, to politically heavy guarded towards anti western democracy. Just like the guy coming to a big Corp and try to instate use strategic shift, by being passionate and fast acting, that person destroys the minimal confidence and trust people had with the new system. Sure, 64 is well intended, but is it a positive event? No, sorry.

human20190310 7y ago
Meaning of "64" according to Wikipedia: > alternative names have sprung up to describe the events on the Internet, such as May 35th, VIIV (Roman numerals for 6 and 4) and Eight Squared (i.e. 8^2=64).
- lordnacho 7y ago
  The 6th month, the 4th day. You can ask a Chinese person what the events if the 6th month and 4th day were.

remote_phone 7y ago

This is what happens when search engines “forget” the past. Regimes completely control their people and people believe what their regime wants them to believe. This is what Google wants to perpetuate with Dragonfly. All for money.

hootergie 7y ago

Don't let Tianamen take your eyes off what the Chinese are doing right now. In Xinjiang prison camps. Non-Han (mostly Moslem and Christian) Chinese citizens are imprisoned indefinitely in "reeducation" programs while simultaneously a campaign encouraging Han Chinese to migrate to Xinjiang is underway. The situation resembles Stalin's migration and imprisonment programs that killed off whole segments of Russian society during his reign. Included are forced organ donation (death): "Proof of China’s Organ Harvesting Found in Xinjiang": http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/ "Chinese Authorities Draw Blood from Uyghurs in Xinjiang to Build Secret Organ Matching Database": http://chinascope.org/archives/13583 http://chinascope.org/archives/13583

komali2 7y ago
This was downvoted to death within 6 minutes. Downvoters: why? Do you have evidence that contradicts this? Wikipedia has compiled a shitload of sources reporting on this subject. It is happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... The existence of the reeducation camps is also well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps?wp...
- reaperducer 7y ago
  This was downvoted to death within 6 minutes. Downvoters: why? Perhaps people think it's off-topic, and distracts from the discussion at hand.
  - analyst74 7y ago
    I remember having an online discussion about how the Chinese tourist stereotype is inaccurate, and how it affects Chinese-looking people in the west. Then a rando jumped in and listed all the evil things CCP has done, completely irrelevant to the topic at discussion. Having a discussion about anything China is becoming increasingly difficult.

jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago

Given that there are so many Chinese students, tourists, and businessmen abroad and exposed to foreign media these days, how does these Chinese government manage to still keep a lid on this?

Synaesthesia 7y ago
Propaganda works. You see it in authoritarian regimes and in western democracies.
jjcc 7y ago
That's exactly the question everybody who accept the interpretation from BBC and all western media should ask. In addtion, let's put the moral issue aside but consider only the intellgence of a regime that already achieved so many nation management goals and ask next question: Is the regime so stupid to believe the cover up works while keep the openness? The alternative theory/hypotheis which can explain much better: The ban never really mean to keep the lid which is impossible. In fact, most educated Chinese know(And with a little diffrent view today from westerners and their own thoughts 30 years ago. But that's another topic). The real purpose of blocking information was an preemptive measure to disable the hidden agenda covered under those memorial activities which fool most people to believe that they are only memorial activities.
odiroot 7y ago
It's a really complicated problem. All Chinese people I've met in Europe (20 - 30 year olds) are aware of the story with all the gruesome details. They have no problems talking about this with foreigners. They're a bit afraid to talk about it in China but it's not like everyone would report you for that (Orwell style). On the other hand they sincerely believe CCP would rule forever, or at least until they die. They see no reason to rock the boat and potentially risk their careers or safety. China is growing and developing really fast now and (from what I've heard) care more about the usual problems of a middle class than some historical tragedy.
- jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago
  This is a good book, a modern day Chinese version of 1984, and it dives right into the feigned ignorance that mainlanders are so practiced at these days. Written around a decade ago, before the rise of Chairman-For-Life Xi Jinping, but it was quite predictive of the changes which have occurred over the past few years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

I was doing consulting work for the IOC when cities were bidding for the 2008 Summer Olympics. BOCOG submitted as part of their bid using Tiananmen Square as the site for Beach Volleyball. The IOC had to tell them it was inappropriate and to change that part of their bid. They really do want to pretend nothing happened there.

canjobear 7y ago
Another way of looking at it: even for Chinese people who are aware of and care about the incident, Tiananmen Square is still a famous and significant place in its own right and is not primarily associated with that particular event. They don’t call it the “Tiananmen Square” incident in Chinese, because many other things also happened there.
- hnnmzh 7y ago
  Exactly! This is an example of the many cognitive biases. To people live outside of China, that event is all they know about Tiananmen. But to a Chinese person especially a local resident, it's a place of many memories - a big playground for kids, a hub for changing buses, the entrance to Forbidden City/Zhongshan (Sun Yat Sen) Park/National Museum, a pathway to a shopping quarter, and of course a place full of annoying tourists. No one is trying to hide anything. It's simply a wonderful venue for olympic games. The view would have been amazing! You will never get an opportunity like that again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQke3dJdNU&feature=youtu.be&t=486 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQke3dJdNU&feature=youtu.be... (again please ignore those awkward tourists) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYf_OsxLeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYf_OsxLeM

jeffk_teh_haxor 7y ago

I recommend all of you to read this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Years

blaesus 7y ago

By the way, Chinese "barrage" (弹幕） video/livestream sites (think YouTube, but comments fly over the pictures of the videos like bullets, hence the name), including Bilibili (listed on Nasdaq), Acfun and Douyu, blocked the barrage-comment functionality from around May 30 to June 6. YouTube-style static comments are still allowed though.