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The rise of EVs also presents the opportunity for generally lighter, smaller, cheaper vehicles. Already they are very popular in China: https://insideevs.com/n

The rise of EVs also presents the opportunity for generally lighter, smaller, cheaper vehicles. Already they are very popular in China: https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-electric-cars/ https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-el... What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and much lower performance? (ie. limited to 120km/h) How light, cheap, and small could we take it without utterly abandoning safety? Basically, the kind of vehicle designed just for inner-city commutes and picking up goods. If these vehicles became more common we would see a 'peace dividend' in the car safety wars - the other vehicles on the road would be lighter, so crashes would be less dangerous (maybe combined with automatic crash avoidance as well) and breaking times shorter, so crumple zones and other big heavy features could be reduced.

nradov 7y ago
Neighborhood electric vehicles are already allowed on lower speed US roads and are fairly popular in some areas. But passive collision safety will never be very good. Assuming equivalent materials, a larger heavier vehicle will always be safer due to greater mass and thicker crumple zones.
- potatochup 7y ago
  *Safer for occupants only. More dangerous for everyone else on the road.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    Larger crumple zones on any vehicle in collision will make that collision safer for all vehicles involved. The point about the mass stands, though.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Well, now you're stuck in this sort of tragedy-of-the-commons situation where it's better for everyone individually to have bigger cars but worse for everyone as a group.
    - lazyjones 7y ago
      > but worse for everyone as a group. Not true. 2 modern, big cars crashing into each other at typical urban speeds usually mean no serious injuries. But try crashing 2 LSV at 50 Km/h and see what happens.
      - kennywinker 7y ago
        Worse for everyone because we’re hauling around many otherwise unneeded tonnes of metal in case we hit someone who’s hauling around many unneeded tonnes of metal in case they hit someone hauling... Also cars don’t only hit other cars.
        lazyjones 7y ago
        > Worse for everyone because we’re hauling around many otherwise unneeded tonnes of metal This may be wasteful, but it's safer. So it's not a net loss. > Also cars don’t only hit other cars. They also hit people and big cars can cater for this more efficiently (see crash tests for big Volvos for example), as well as hard walls and trees, where the answer is quite obvious.
        sliken 7y ago
        Safer for cars, pedestrian and bicyclist deaths have been climbing recently.
        nradov 7y ago
        Pedestrian and bicyclist deaths have been climbing due to distracted and impaired drivers, as well as more vehicle miles being driven overall. Vehicle size has little effect on pedestrian safety. A compact car will hurt a pedestrian just as badly as a large SUV. Actually the compact car can be worse in some collisions due to the hood height and shape.
        lazyjones 7y ago
lixtra 7y ago
> What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and much lower performance? Then people wouldn’t buy it or at least different people. Every Tesla driver I met told me first how much fun it is to drive.
- omeid2 7y ago
  I don't think so, most people buy Tesla based on their marketing, most people who actually enjoy driving prefer ICE, I have test driven Tesla and they feel nothing like a BMW M4 or a Mercedes C63 MG, it feels like driving a big go-kart and handles rather poorly. The interior of Tesla feels plastic and amateur for it's price range, no one outside of the cult says nice stuff about their frame either: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-profits-20181017-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-profit...
  - SheinhardtWigCo 7y ago
    > most people buy Tesla based on their marketing Most people buy things based on marketing. > most people who actually enjoy driving prefer ICE Did you just make that up? It sounds a lot like gatekeeping. > it feels like driving a big go-kart That's a big plus for some. > no one outside of the cult says nice stuff about their frame either: [link] The linked article is content marketing for a teardown consultant who wasn't privy to tradeoffs made during the design process.
    - omeid2 7y ago
      > Most people buy things based on marketing. There is a difference between buying Channel products based on marketing and buying your power tools based on marketing. The difference is that one is marketing for actual spec and durability the other for status and gimmicks or worst outright lies. > Did you just make that up? It sounds a lot like gatekeeping. The sales number speaks for it self, along with TSLA Financial Results. >> it feels like driving a big go-kart and handles rather poorly. > That's a big plus for some. Not sure what you're getting at, people who would not buy low range and specially lower performance cars somehow would prefer go-kart like feeling and handling? > The linked article is content marketing for a teardown consultant who wasn't privy to tradeoffs made during the design process. Calling Munro a marketing consultant is a poor effort.
village-idiot 7y ago
These cars already exist, but only in California. Local tax laws result in cars like the fiat 500e, which are cheap and cheerful electric commuters.
dvdbloc 7y ago
I think itd look like a Nissan Leaf, a car that has sold in only moderate numbers over the years
- lucideer 7y ago
  I get that EVs in general haven't been historically popular cars, but stating that Nissan Leaf, literally the best selling EV of all time, has only sold in "moderate numbers", is a bit of a joke. Even in annual sales, it's only recently been surpassed by the Model S. Furthermore, while it does do relatively close to half the range of a Model S (and the gp did state "half"), given Tesla's advances in range, along with Nissan's own advances in battery longevity, I don't think they're skimping on cheap tech for low range. One could go a lot lower and still have a very usable city car. All that said, the general point was: would it sell. The Leaf is extremely popular in Europe where (in my highly subjective opinion) car buying is slightly more rational/practical: the US market seems to favour mass-for-the-sake-of-it (clearly evident even comparing the range of cars available on the market in Europe vs the US), so I don't think smaller would do well there.
  - dvdbloc 7y ago
    I guess I should have clarified that I meant it has sold in moderate numbers compared to ICE car sales. Honda sells over 300k Civics each year.
    - lucideer 7y ago
      Fair. You're right that the Leaf hasn't been the breakthrough dominator in the car market, propelling EVs to the top. But I the fact it got into the same order of magnitude as popular ICEs does seem like something of a breakthrough.
- yread 7y ago
  Moderate numbers? 400.000 cars?! It's "the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car" according to wiki
- 7y ago
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
A lot of those small Chinese EVs turned out to just be subsidy scams. The real EVs that actually get used (eg by BYD) turn out to be much bigger than golf carts. https://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/subsidy-fraud-reforms-china-ev-market https://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/subsidy-fraud-reforms-ch...
bgarbiak 7y ago
There is a car like this in Europe, probably the first of its kind: https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy... The problem is: it's relatively expensive. You can have a proper, "normal" ICE car in that price. Probably the best case for mini-vehicles like these is a sharing model. At least, that's the thinking behind the Volkswagen's entry into the market: https://www.seat.com/company/news/cars/seat-minimo-mwc.html https://www.seat.com/company/news/cars/seat-minimo-mwc.html
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  With the Renault EVs, you’re buying the car, but the battery is on a rental contract.
- Brakenshire 7y ago
  I suspect one of the benefits of EVs will be that the drivetrain cost scales more easily with vehicle size than for internal combustion vehicles. EV drivetrains can easily scale anywhere in output between a cordless vacuum cleaner and a pickup truck. We’ve already seen this property create a whole new class of vehicle with Lime-style electric scooters.
- fyfy18 7y ago
  Something like an electric version of this would be better: https://www.aixam.com/en/minauto/access https://www.aixam.com/en/minauto/access These cars are popular among teenagers in France and Italy as they can be driven from 16. Compared to a scooter they are safer, and you can have passengers and cargo space. They are severely underpowered though (anytime they need to go uphill they cause a traffic jam), and the diesel engine is probably except from emissions requirements.
daliusd 7y ago
VW UP (has eletric version) has 5/5 stars in Euro NCAP testing. As well there is VW ID.3 but it is larger than UP I believe.

nradov 7y ago

Neighborhood electric vehicles are already allowed on lower speed US roads and are fairly popular in some areas. But passive collision safety will never be very good. Assuming equivalent materials, a larger heavier vehicle will always be safer due to greater mass and thicker crumple zones.

potatochup 7y ago
*Safer for occupants only. More dangerous for everyone else on the road.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  Larger crumple zones on any vehicle in collision will make that collision safer for all vehicles involved. The point about the mass stands, though.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Well, now you're stuck in this sort of tragedy-of-the-commons situation where it's better for everyone individually to have bigger cars but worse for everyone as a group.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    > but worse for everyone as a group. Not true. 2 modern, big cars crashing into each other at typical urban speeds usually mean no serious injuries. But try crashing 2 LSV at 50 Km/h and see what happens.
    - kennywinker 7y ago
      Worse for everyone because we’re hauling around many otherwise unneeded tonnes of metal in case we hit someone who’s hauling around many unneeded tonnes of metal in case they hit someone hauling... Also cars don’t only hit other cars.
      - lazyjones 7y ago
        > Worse for everyone because we’re hauling around many otherwise unneeded tonnes of metal This may be wasteful, but it's safer. So it's not a net loss. > Also cars don’t only hit other cars. They also hit people and big cars can cater for this more efficiently (see crash tests for big Volvos for example), as well as hard walls and trees, where the answer is quite obvious.
        sliken 7y ago
        Safer for cars, pedestrian and bicyclist deaths have been climbing recently.
        nradov 7y ago
        Pedestrian and bicyclist deaths have been climbing due to distracted and impaired drivers, as well as more vehicle miles being driven overall. Vehicle size has little effect on pedestrian safety. A compact car will hurt a pedestrian just as badly as a large SUV. Actually the compact car can be worse in some collisions due to the hood height and shape.
        lazyjones 7y ago

lixtra 7y ago

> What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and much lower performance? Then people wouldn’t buy it or at least different people. Every Tesla driver I met told me first how much fun it is to drive.

omeid2 7y ago
I don't think so, most people buy Tesla based on their marketing, most people who actually enjoy driving prefer ICE, I have test driven Tesla and they feel nothing like a BMW M4 or a Mercedes C63 MG, it feels like driving a big go-kart and handles rather poorly. The interior of Tesla feels plastic and amateur for it's price range, no one outside of the cult says nice stuff about their frame either: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-profits-20181017-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-profit...
- SheinhardtWigCo 7y ago
  > most people buy Tesla based on their marketing Most people buy things based on marketing. > most people who actually enjoy driving prefer ICE Did you just make that up? It sounds a lot like gatekeeping. > it feels like driving a big go-kart That's a big plus for some. > no one outside of the cult says nice stuff about their frame either: [link] The linked article is content marketing for a teardown consultant who wasn't privy to tradeoffs made during the design process.
  - omeid2 7y ago
    > Most people buy things based on marketing. There is a difference between buying Channel products based on marketing and buying your power tools based on marketing. The difference is that one is marketing for actual spec and durability the other for status and gimmicks or worst outright lies. > Did you just make that up? It sounds a lot like gatekeeping. The sales number speaks for it self, along with TSLA Financial Results. >> it feels like driving a big go-kart and handles rather poorly. > That's a big plus for some. Not sure what you're getting at, people who would not buy low range and specially lower performance cars somehow would prefer go-kart like feeling and handling? > The linked article is content marketing for a teardown consultant who wasn't privy to tradeoffs made during the design process. Calling Munro a marketing consultant is a poor effort.

village-idiot 7y ago

These cars already exist, but only in California. Local tax laws result in cars like the fiat 500e, which are cheap and cheerful electric commuters.

dvdbloc 7y ago

I think itd look like a Nissan Leaf, a car that has sold in only moderate numbers over the years

lucideer 7y ago
I get that EVs in general haven't been historically popular cars, but stating that Nissan Leaf, literally the best selling EV of all time, has only sold in "moderate numbers", is a bit of a joke. Even in annual sales, it's only recently been surpassed by the Model S. Furthermore, while it does do relatively close to half the range of a Model S (and the gp did state "half"), given Tesla's advances in range, along with Nissan's own advances in battery longevity, I don't think they're skimping on cheap tech for low range. One could go a lot lower and still have a very usable city car. All that said, the general point was: would it sell. The Leaf is extremely popular in Europe where (in my highly subjective opinion) car buying is slightly more rational/practical: the US market seems to favour mass-for-the-sake-of-it (clearly evident even comparing the range of cars available on the market in Europe vs the US), so I don't think smaller would do well there.
- dvdbloc 7y ago
  I guess I should have clarified that I meant it has sold in moderate numbers compared to ICE car sales. Honda sells over 300k Civics each year.
  - lucideer 7y ago
    Fair. You're right that the Leaf hasn't been the breakthrough dominator in the car market, propelling EVs to the top. But I the fact it got into the same order of magnitude as popular ICEs does seem like something of a breakthrough.
yread 7y ago
Moderate numbers? 400.000 cars?! It's "the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car" according to wiki
7y ago

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

A lot of those small Chinese EVs turned out to just be subsidy scams. The real EVs that actually get used (eg by BYD) turn out to be much bigger than golf carts. https://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/subsidy-fraud-reforms-china-ev-market https://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/subsidy-fraud-reforms-ch...

bgarbiak 7y ago

There is a car like this in Europe, probably the first of its kind: https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy... The problem is: it's relatively expensive. You can have a proper, "normal" ICE car in that price. Probably the best case for mini-vehicles like these is a sharing model. At least, that's the thinking behind the Volkswagen's entry into the market: https://www.seat.com/company/news/cars/seat-minimo-mwc.html https://www.seat.com/company/news/cars/seat-minimo-mwc.html

Scoundreller 7y ago
With the Renault EVs, you’re buying the car, but the battery is on a rental contract.
Brakenshire 7y ago
I suspect one of the benefits of EVs will be that the drivetrain cost scales more easily with vehicle size than for internal combustion vehicles. EV drivetrains can easily scale anywhere in output between a cordless vacuum cleaner and a pickup truck. We’ve already seen this property create a whole new class of vehicle with Lime-style electric scooters.
fyfy18 7y ago
Something like an electric version of this would be better: https://www.aixam.com/en/minauto/access https://www.aixam.com/en/minauto/access These cars are popular among teenagers in France and Italy as they can be driven from 16. Compared to a scooter they are safer, and you can have passengers and cargo space. They are severely underpowered though (anytime they need to go uphill they cause a traffic jam), and the diesel engine is probably except from emissions requirements.

daliusd 7y ago

VW UP (has eletric version) has 5/5 stars in Euro NCAP testing. As well there is VW ID.3 but it is larger than UP I believe.