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How some cities became rat-free zones
- 781 7y agoDisgusting animal abuse... There is place for everybody in our cities. Meanwhile in more civilized places: > Fat rat stuck in manhole rescued by firefighters in Germany https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/27/fat-rat-stuck-in-manhole-rescued-by-firefighters-in-germany https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/27/fat-rat-stuck-...
- forgotmypw 7y agoThank you for saying this. From a non-human-centric perspective, it is essentially mass murder of intelligent, sentient species that has been used as a scapegoat for various "sanitation" problems that were actually the result of human overpopulation.
- benatkin 7y agoThe article addresses their status as animals just fine. > Rats were declared a pest in 1950, making rat control mandatory. Rats are a pest because they can survive all over the globe, and in transit, as an invasive species, and multiply quickly. Societies all around the world have independently discovered the need for pest control because of how much damage (including spreading disease) they cause and how difficult population control is, and a term for "pest" exists in multiple languages. There are places that treat them far less humanely, and places where non-pest animals are much less protected.
- jjoonathan 7y agoYeah, but my perspective is unapologetically human-centric. We've got plenty of our own problems to fix. Being nice to rats is so far down my list of concerns that I'd consider it generous to spend even a modicum of effort on it.
- forgotmypw 7y agoThe problem with that perspective is that it ignores the fact that we are living in a fragile and interdependent ecosystem, and it is impossible to harm the rats without harming ourselves in the process.
- rickycook 7y agorats are not a native species in most places; they are introduced and actually harm native species and ecosystems. the article mentions this
- jjoonathan 7y agoI'm not convinced. However, I am convinced that it's impossible to coddle the rats without harming ourselves in the process.
- harimau777 7y agoDon't they carry disease (or carry parasites that carry disease) and cause lots of damage (e.g. chewing on wires and stuff)? Personally, I always thought they were kind of cute but it still seems like they are something that would need to be managed.
- nerdponx 7y agoThey do in fact carry disease. I agree that rats are pretty cute; they make good pets (if you can come to terms with their 2-3 year lifespan). But they absolutely need to be managed, just like any other wildlife population that we are in close contact with.
- benatkin 7y agoI was curious if they were illegal to have as pets in Alberta. It appears they are: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/first-person/rats/article37658114/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/first-person/rats/artic...
- PyroLagus 7y agoThey were primarily responsible for the spread of the Black Death/Great Plague, one of the worst pandemics in human history, so yes. And I'd like to point out that the plague still exists[1]. Now imagine what could happen if we just gave rats free rein... I'm all for animal rights and sympathy, but harmful pests need to be suppressed or eradicated in the areas where they can do harm, whether that's rats, mosquitoes, or locusts. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html
- forgotmypw 7y agoActually, rats' involvement in the spread of the Black Plague is under question. https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-death-it-was-humans https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-dea... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/01/rats-plague-black-death-humans-lice-health-science/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/01/rats-plague-blac... https://www.sciencealert.com/black-death-plague-spread-humans-lice-not-rats https://www.sciencealert.com/black-death-plague-spread-human... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/01/16/the-classic-explanation-for-the-black-death-plague-is-wrong-scientists-say/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2...
- golergka 7y ago> From a non-human-centric perspective But you're a human. The only possible reason for you to assume this perspective is if you let your empathy run amok without any checks on it - which is as idiotic with empathy as with any other instinct.
- forgotmypw 7y agoI don't agree that empathizing with other species is letting one's empathy run amok. I think there is a severe deficit of empathy in Western culture.
- zzo38computer 7y agoI think human and other species are both need to live and be permitted to be sufficiently free in the world, but that it is valid to attack them for self defense or for food (not to be mandatory, but only permitted, if it is not endangered species), but not for other reason. There is over population, but over population is mainly the human over population I think, so that is the first thing to solve. However, I also think that you should protect yourself too, if is necessary to do so. Human is not (currently) a endangered species and should not be over protected compared with everyone else (but that does not mean it should be disregarded, either); however, you can protect your own children if needed to be (if you have any; I prefer to don't have any children, to avoid to contribute to such problem).
- forgotmypw 7y agoHow is it self-defense to mass-exterminate a largely harmless species that's closely related to us?
- zzo38computer 7y agoI did not say it is. Rather, I think that you should not mass exterminate them, and that isn't a valid self-defense. (I was perhaps being unclear.)
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- tuesdayrain 7y agoI am unashamed to say that I'm a "human supremacist". I believe that humans are at the top of the food chain for a good reason. If it's necessary to choose, human life should generally always be prioritized over that of other animals. I feel that letting rats thrive rather than removing them to fix sanitation problems is morally wrong. Of course ideally there would be some humane solution like moving them elsewhere, but that's not always feasible. I'm also confident that human overpopulation is a myth, and that all the problems attributed to that would be better fixed by technological improvements instead of somehow reducing the population. Fun fact: the entire population of the world could fit into Texas, and it would still have a population density less than NYC.
- hshshshshss 7y agoIt's a pretty sad thought that there are many people like you out there.
- YUMad 7y agoHere's your SJW cookie point: * You live in comfort because countless men like him did hard things and made hard decisions like that. Until you stop using products and environments such men created (cities, cars, public transport, farm food, your digital devices just for a short list of examples), you don't have a high horse to spew your snobbery from on top of. For one point, have you ever heard of plague? For another point, do you know how many mice on avg are killed by the harvesting machines per hectare? Your pompous probably-vegan ass is responsible for countless thousands of those through the food you ate.
- hshshshshss 7y agoYou seem awfully offended for someone that isn't doing anything wrong.
- sieabahlpark 7y agoGood troll
- blattimwind 7y agoEvery German city has a program to deploy rat poision once or twice per year
- 781 7y agoThey should all be jailed...
- sieabahlpark 7y agoHi PETA, how are those kill shelters working out? I guess the only way forward is to create another bubonic plague
- dang 7y agoPosting flamebait will get you banned here. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and following the rules? Edit: it looks like your account has been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't. I wrote about this recently if anyone wants more information (see last paragraph): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20013092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20013092.
- sieabahlpark 7y agoI understand most of my comments on this threat have been battling, but in most other threads I actually do want to spike up discussion. How should I proceed in approaching that? I'm also not trying to incite battle with my mostly conservative views, I feel it shouldn't be an echo chamber for every article.
- kkarakk 7y agoPost articles where the focus is animal welfare? The focus of this article is rats as vermin to be controlled...
- spinach 7y ago"There is a place for everybody in our cities" You mean once we destroyed their habitat anyways? All houses, buildings, roads, factories, etc, were all habitats to animals, insects, vegetation, etc, and then they were displaced or killed when the land was cleared for construction. But luckily for us, that was before we moved in or places we don't have to see it. All the items you use are mined and manufactured in buildings or places that destroyed other life on the planet, and then will destroy more once disposed of again. This empathy for rats seems completely misplaced.
- dang 7y agoPlease don't post take HN threads further into flamewar, no matter how much you love animals. Nationalistic flamebait is particularly unwelcome here, so no more of that please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- harimau777 7y agoGenerally I think that we should manage animals in the most humane way possible (e.g. we likely cannot have lions roaming around cities but that doesn't mean we should just wipe them out). However, it seems like rodents are a difficult case: As I understand it the basic evolutionary strategy for most rodents is "breed prolifically in order to offset a very high mortality rate". In that case it seems like extermination is effectively the "natural" way to manage them. I don't think it would be possible to round up rats and put them in shelters the way that we do stray dogs. What alternative method of managing rodent populations would you advocate?
- behringer 7y agoAbstinence
- harimau777 7y agoNot gonna lie, this post made my day. Well done sir/madame!
- forgotmypw 7y agoAllowing them to live in our presence and not trying to kill them? Rats are largely scavengers, their involvement in, e.g. black plague, has been disproven. If you don't leave food out and available, they won't eat it. In many countries around the world people live in harmony with other animals and don't try to wipe them out just because they are in the same space. Not to mention the amount of toxic poisons that end up harming us more than the rats that we are dumping int our own habitat to try to kill the rats. It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat! Same thing with bacteria. We've decided that sterility is the way to go, and gone on a mad spree trying to kill all bacteria, forgetting that bacteria is how we digest food, so again, poisoning ourselves and damaging our own health, threatening ourselves in the process. These are all living organisms that we are closely related to, sharing the same environment as us, and anything we do to them comes back to us. Not only that, but our bodies are tuned over millions of years to coexist with them, and a sterile environment with all kinds of synthetic poisons in it, once again, fucks us up. There is also the issue that computers and AIs are learning from us the way children learn from their parents, and will one day treat us the same way that we treat the "lower" species.
- dominotw 7y agoFuck, I live in rat heaven- chicago. One sneaked into my bedroom last polar votex. Never knew my sweetest gentle cat had such vicious killer instinct. Flew straight out from the kitchen table and bit its neck and then proceeded to torment the poor thing for next 1/2 hr before I rescued the rat, picked it up with towels(blood still dripping) and threw it in garbage bin outside. I decided that night to move the fuck out of chicago and will be moving out end of this year.
- selectodude 7y agoI’m curious where you plan to live that doesn’t have any rats.
- Iv 7y agoI lived in Paris, Berlin, Tokyo. Never saw any rat where humans would go. I think I spot mice in Paris in the streets once.
- tzs 7y agoThey are pretty good at avoiding being seen, but they are around. Paris has more rats than humans, and Berlin has about 2/3 as many rats as humans. I haven't need good estimates for Tokyo's rat population, but there are about 5000 reports of human encounters a year (down from 20k/year in 2001).
- executesorder66 7y ago> I haven't need good estimates for Tokyo's rat population, but there are about 5000 reports of human encounters a year (down from 20k/year in 2001). What do you mean reports of human encounters? I was in Tokyo a few weeks ago, and I saw some rats. I didn't report it, because who gives a shit if you see a rat in a city? I've seen rats in every city I've ever been in.
- simonsarris 7y agoReally? I lived in Paris for a month and saw the "dératisation", and the rats. A park was so infested they had to close it temporarily.
- thrower123 7y agoIf you have a varmint problem of some type, I would highly recommend using spring traps over putting out DCON or other poison. If you care about killing them kindly, a big snap that crushes their skull or breaks their neck is better than slowly dying of poison. More importantly, if they die in your trap, you know where they are and can clean them up easily. There are few things more disgusting than finding a rat or a squirrel that has crawled off into some tight space to die, and sat there long enough in the heat for the flies and maggots to get at the corpse
- koolba 7y agoAlso having dead rats or mice rotting away in a hidden corner literally stinks.
- Jill_the_Pill 7y agoAlso, have a thought for the animals up the food chain, poisoned by poisoned rats and mice.
- astazangasta 7y agoThis LRB bit on rats is a good read: > ‘Rats that survive to the age of four are the wisest and the most cynical beasts on earth,’ an exterminator told Mitchell sixty years ago. ‘A trap means nothing to them, no matter how skilfully set. They just kick it around until it snaps; then they eat the bait. And they can detect poisoned bait a yard off. I believe some of them can read.’ https://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n06/sean-wilsey/some-of-them-can-read https://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n06/sean-wilsey/some-of-them-can-r...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lostlogin 7y ago> Farms closest to the border are checked twice a year and adjacent sites once. It sounds like a lot, says Merrill That sounds like very little, and yet they have proven results. I know people who run traps and check/reset them weekly over 10+km lines. That sounds like a lot, and yet it’s hardly denting the population. Unfortunately it’s 1080 poison that is needed. New Zealand has a vague goal of becoming pest free. This is going to be hard, and cats don’t fit with this. Perhaps dogs don’t either?
- goodcanadian 7y agoRats can't survive outside in the winter in Alberta (or Saskatchewan). They need human buildings. The distances between farmsteads are large, at least from a rat's point of view. There is therefore a relatively large time constant between jumps from one farm to the next. Checking a couple of times per year is usually sufficient.
- oeuviz 7y agoAnother recent rodent killing article can be found here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20019487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20019487