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Apple designers need a new mantra, the age-old adage: "Form follows function." As it is, they're choosing a form ahead of time and compromising on function. Th

Apple designers need a new mantra, the age-old adage: "Form follows function." As it is, they're choosing a form ahead of time and compromising on function. The vast majority of users choose Macs because of the great OS and the hardware specs. The "thinness" or "sleekness" is only a nice-to-have, and only if it doesn't require compromise elsewhere.

soperj 7y ago
hardware specs? They usually very outdated. They didn't update the air processor for like 4 generations.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I didn't mean Apple's are always top-of-the-line. Only that specs are usually close to the top of customers' criteria.
- rayiner 7y ago
  The Air is an exception—it was in this limbo where it looked like it didn’t have a place in the product lineup between the MacBook and MacBooks Pro. A couple of exceptions is hardly “usually.” The other lines are updated regularly with whatever is the latest in October.
  - ehrtt 7y ago
    12" MacBook hasn't been updated in 2 years.
- jlarocco 7y ago
  The hardware specs are "meh" at best, but the build quality is still better than the competitor.. I have a newer Thinkpad for work, and it feels cheap and plastic compared to my MBP. The Lenovo creaks when I pick it up with one hand, and just feels flimsy. The MBP feels solid and integrated. I'd love a 2013 MBP with modern components.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    My X1 Carbon, which cost as much as a 13” MBP, has a plastic sticker for a bezel. It’s now peeling off.
    - amiga-workbench 7y ago
      Good lord, I knew the newer Lenovo models were underwhelming but that's their flagship premium model. That's utterly unacceptable.
      - namibj 7y ago
        It's their thin-is-better lighter-is-more-important model. In the traditional 14-16" size, the T4xx/T5xx devices do what they are supposed to. A changable battery (while running, without tools) enables you to do things like swapping an empty battery for a full one, either by plugging in shortly, using a secondary battery in the case, or briefly shutting down. I don't want to carry that much energy with me all the time, but I still want the option to use the device without having significant downtime. A short break is fine, but that's 5-10 minutes, not 30+ for charging the battery.
        amiga-workbench 7y ago
        I believe the hot-swappable batteries are a goner on the latest T series machines.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Thinkpad doesn't say much. What series? Thinkpads range from supermarket offer bin to mobile workstations like P1.
    - jlarocco 7y ago
      It's a P52s. The fact that it matters is part of the problem. All of the Apple laptops feel solid and well put together.
everyone 7y ago
Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows? When ye say "great", I think ye mean "the one I am familiar with".
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  Since the introduction of Mac OS X, I've always thought of macOS in terms of a Venn diagram of two partially overlapping circles: (A) Operating systems that major desktop apps support (B) Developer-friendly operating systems (Unix/Linux at the core, default shell is bash or similar, etc.) Windows is in (A). Linux is in (B). But macOS is in the overlapping area between (A) and (B). It's the best of both worlds.
  - everyone 7y ago
    (B) Web developer friendly. I am a game dev. I have no need for Unix.
    - dijit 7y ago
      You're in a bit of a niche though; gamedev is heavily slanted towards the microsoft ecosystem, and that might be changing depending on how Stadia is adopted. Source: myself, a gamedev for AAA titles.
      - everyone 7y ago
        Imo HN needs to be reminded as much as possible that not all of programming is web-apps. Its very common here in comments (and articles) for the two to be synonymous.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        dmitriid 7y ago
        Web and mobile are such a huge chunk of our everyday lives now though that I would dare say that everything else pales in comparison. And Apple has had the mindshare of that crowd for quite some time now. But... --- Personally, I despise working with both Windows and current generation of Linux desktops. They are clunky, inconsistent, cluttered etc. However, they are improving (albeit slowly sometimes) while Apple's "pro" offerings are degrading at an alarming rate. And with the impending advent of Marzipan we might see an exodus of pro users from MacOS.
781 7y ago
It is "form" which made macbook THE notebook to have. > The vast majority of users choose Macs because of the great OS and the hardware specs Very wrong. Your average consumer can barely differentiate between MacOS/Windows. The vast majority choose it because it's the best social-status-wise. Which it became because of form. Everybody knows that only poor people have Androids/PCs.
- bscphil 7y ago
  >Everybody knows that only poor people have Androids/PCs. Having worked on several university campuses, I agree with you about Apple promoting themselves as a status symbol, but - I think you might have to run in upper-class or at least urban circles to even notice this difference. I grew up in small town America, where nobody was buying laptop computers the price of a used car. Doctors, lawyers, pretty much everybody I knew as a kid ran Windows. Most people had a traditional desktop tower, whether or not they had a laptop. The few exceptions tended to be geeks, or people who were devoted to the Apple ecosystem because they had been using Macs since at least the early '90s. Now that I'm in urban university circles, I'm the only person using Androids / non-Apple PC hardware. Apple really seems to be the "default", and people using other things are doing so for pretty solid technical reasons.
- x0x0 7y ago
  I dunno, I used to recommend a lot of relatives -- aunts & uncles, nephews and nieces in school -- buy macbook airs, particularly when they were $900 / $1k-ish out the door. Now that they're $1400 w/ 16g ram / $1500 out the door, I recommend them to no one. $1.5k is just too much money for a basic laptop.
- la_barba 7y ago
  The exact ratio could be argued, but there are customers with varying levels of familiarity with computing tech. Calling people "wrong" is just plain silly.
kevin_b_er 7y ago
Apple's mantra is "form over function".
- FabHK 7y ago
  It most definitely did not use to be.
  - liability 7y ago
    There were hints of it even back in the Apple II and Apple III era, both of which released with inadaquate cooling.
    - FabHK 7y ago
      Interesting point. However, there was also the famous Steve quote where he was adamant that design is about function, and not about how pretty it looks.
      - FabHK 7y ago
        Found it: > “Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer – that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.” – Steve Jobs
    - rbanffy 7y ago
      The only 8-bit Apple that suffered from inadequate cooling was the III. An average II would never overheat. You could, of course, load your II to a limit it'd fail, but my //e was fairly loaded (320k of RAM, SSC, Grappler, Microsoft Softcard (1 MHz Z-80), AE clock, Disk II and a PAL-M board). The II+ had mostly the same configs, with 64K and a Videx 80-column card in dual-head configuration. Both ran warm-ish for about a decade before going into storage. Both ran perfectly silent.
      - 7y ago

soperj 7y ago

hardware specs? They usually very outdated. They didn't update the air processor for like 4 generations.

TimTheTinker 7y ago
I didn't mean Apple's are always top-of-the-line. Only that specs are usually close to the top of customers' criteria.
rayiner 7y ago
The Air is an exception—it was in this limbo where it looked like it didn’t have a place in the product lineup between the MacBook and MacBooks Pro. A couple of exceptions is hardly “usually.” The other lines are updated regularly with whatever is the latest in October.
- ehrtt 7y ago
  12" MacBook hasn't been updated in 2 years.
jlarocco 7y ago
The hardware specs are "meh" at best, but the build quality is still better than the competitor.. I have a newer Thinkpad for work, and it feels cheap and plastic compared to my MBP. The Lenovo creaks when I pick it up with one hand, and just feels flimsy. The MBP feels solid and integrated. I'd love a 2013 MBP with modern components.
- rayiner 7y ago
  My X1 Carbon, which cost as much as a 13” MBP, has a plastic sticker for a bezel. It’s now peeling off.
  - amiga-workbench 7y ago
    Good lord, I knew the newer Lenovo models were underwhelming but that's their flagship premium model. That's utterly unacceptable.
    - namibj 7y ago
      It's their thin-is-better lighter-is-more-important model. In the traditional 14-16" size, the T4xx/T5xx devices do what they are supposed to. A changable battery (while running, without tools) enables you to do things like swapping an empty battery for a full one, either by plugging in shortly, using a secondary battery in the case, or briefly shutting down. I don't want to carry that much energy with me all the time, but I still want the option to use the device without having significant downtime. A short break is fine, but that's 5-10 minutes, not 30+ for charging the battery.
      - amiga-workbench 7y ago
        I believe the hot-swappable batteries are a goner on the latest T series machines.
- viraptor 7y ago
  Thinkpad doesn't say much. What series? Thinkpads range from supermarket offer bin to mobile workstations like P1.
  - jlarocco 7y ago
    It's a P52s. The fact that it matters is part of the problem. All of the Apple laptops feel solid and well put together.

everyone 7y ago

Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows? When ye say "great", I think ye mean "the one I am familiar with".

TimTheTinker 7y ago
Since the introduction of Mac OS X, I've always thought of macOS in terms of a Venn diagram of two partially overlapping circles: (A) Operating systems that major desktop apps support (B) Developer-friendly operating systems (Unix/Linux at the core, default shell is bash or similar, etc.) Windows is in (A). Linux is in (B). But macOS is in the overlapping area between (A) and (B). It's the best of both worlds.
- everyone 7y ago
  (B) Web developer friendly. I am a game dev. I have no need for Unix.
  - dijit 7y ago
    You're in a bit of a niche though; gamedev is heavily slanted towards the microsoft ecosystem, and that might be changing depending on how Stadia is adopted. Source: myself, a gamedev for AAA titles.
    - everyone 7y ago
      Imo HN needs to be reminded as much as possible that not all of programming is web-apps. Its very common here in comments (and articles) for the two to be synonymous.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - dmitriid 7y ago
        Web and mobile are such a huge chunk of our everyday lives now though that I would dare say that everything else pales in comparison. And Apple has had the mindshare of that crowd for quite some time now. But... --- Personally, I despise working with both Windows and current generation of Linux desktops. They are clunky, inconsistent, cluttered etc. However, they are improving (albeit slowly sometimes) while Apple's "pro" offerings are degrading at an alarming rate. And with the impending advent of Marzipan we might see an exodus of pro users from MacOS.

781 7y ago

It is "form" which made macbook THE notebook to have. > The vast majority of users choose Macs because of the great OS and the hardware specs Very wrong. Your average consumer can barely differentiate between MacOS/Windows. The vast majority choose it because it's the best social-status-wise. Which it became because of form. Everybody knows that only poor people have Androids/PCs.

bscphil 7y ago
>Everybody knows that only poor people have Androids/PCs. Having worked on several university campuses, I agree with you about Apple promoting themselves as a status symbol, but - I think you might have to run in upper-class or at least urban circles to even notice this difference. I grew up in small town America, where nobody was buying laptop computers the price of a used car. Doctors, lawyers, pretty much everybody I knew as a kid ran Windows. Most people had a traditional desktop tower, whether or not they had a laptop. The few exceptions tended to be geeks, or people who were devoted to the Apple ecosystem because they had been using Macs since at least the early '90s. Now that I'm in urban university circles, I'm the only person using Androids / non-Apple PC hardware. Apple really seems to be the "default", and people using other things are doing so for pretty solid technical reasons.
x0x0 7y ago
I dunno, I used to recommend a lot of relatives -- aunts & uncles, nephews and nieces in school -- buy macbook airs, particularly when they were $900 / $1k-ish out the door. Now that they're $1400 w/ 16g ram / $1500 out the door, I recommend them to no one. $1.5k is just too much money for a basic laptop.
la_barba 7y ago
The exact ratio could be argued, but there are customers with varying levels of familiarity with computing tech. Calling people "wrong" is just plain silly.

kevin_b_er 7y ago

Apple's mantra is "form over function".

FabHK 7y ago
It most definitely did not use to be.
- liability 7y ago
  There were hints of it even back in the Apple II and Apple III era, both of which released with inadaquate cooling.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Interesting point. However, there was also the famous Steve quote where he was adamant that design is about function, and not about how pretty it looks.
    - FabHK 7y ago
      Found it: > “Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer – that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.” – Steve Jobs
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    The only 8-bit Apple that suffered from inadequate cooling was the III. An average II would never overheat. You could, of course, load your II to a limit it'd fail, but my //e was fairly loaded (320k of RAM, SSC, Grappler, Microsoft Softcard (1 MHz Z-80), AE clock, Disk II and a PAL-M board). The II+ had mostly the same configs, with 64K and a Videx 80-column card in dual-head configuration. Both ran warm-ish for about a decade before going into storage. Both ran perfectly silent.
    - 7y ago