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Self-driving trucks begin mail delivery test for U.S. Postal Service
- melling 7y agoSolving even limited self-driving truck driving would be a huge win. (Geofenced to certain roads) There’s an immediate need and it would save companies a lot of money.
- ru999gol 7y agoI always wondered why it seems we've get automated trucks pretty soon everywhere, but there is almost no one talking about self driving trains?
- ed_balls 7y agoLondon Underground wants to automate the trains, so there is plenty of "talk". A freight train labour cost is much smaller comparing to trucking.
- zaroth 7y agoThe quoted costs for positive train control just seem astronomical for what is actually being achieved; > Under RSIA08, PTC is required on about 60,000 miles of railroad track. The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) estimates full PTC implementation will cost approximately $14 billion. [1] I understand that everything looks simple from the outside, and these have to be rugged, reliable, redundant, and failsafe, but that’s a lot of dollars per mile for sensors. > PTC uses signals and sensors along the track to communicate train location, speed restrictions, and moving authority. If the locomotive is violating a speed restriction or moving authority, on- board equipment will automatically slow or stop the train. A more expansive version of PTC, called communications-based train control (CBTC), would bring additional safety benefits plus business benefits for railroad operators, such as increased capacity and reduced fuel consumption. However, CBTC is not currently being installed by any U.S. railroad, due to the additional cost and the challenge of meeting implementation deadlines. So we’re talking about basically AEB (automatic emergency braking) for trains, and it costs $200k per mile to deploy? I don’t get it. > Based on analysis of past PTC-preventable incidents, the FRA estimated in 2009 that $90 million in annual safety benefits will be realized after full implementation of PTC. Oh good, breakeven without accounting for any time value of money in only 155 years. The only word that comes to mind is boondoggle. [1] - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42637.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42637.pdf
- ambicapter 7y ago> we’re talking about basically AEB (automatic emergency braking) for trains How far ahead does AEB look? Because trains take miles to stop. The system is different to account for that.
- zaroth 7y agoYeah, in a 2D problem space, with every vehicle already reporting position back to the network! The two dimensions being track offset (distance from start of line), and time. This isn’t even obstacle detection. This is a) obeying the speed limit, and b) not asking two known entities to occupy the same length of track at the same time. It does not, for example, detect a car stuck on the tracks at the next railroad crossing.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- gpm 7y agoYou need a lot more people to move the same amount of cargo in trucks, so there is a lot more money to be saved. The consequences of individual crashes is also higher, which changes the perception and consequences of mistakes, even if the number of trucks means the actual scale of the problem might be similar.
- Symbiote 7y agoThe consequence of crashes is what led to the earliest implementations of automation on railways, starting in the 19th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_stop Arguable a mechanical interlocking also counts, as it prevented unsafe routes being set for a train, and made it faster to set the intended route: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocking
- Waterluvian 7y agoI'm curious what the return looks like for self driving trains. I'm going to bet for both safety and employment, trains and transport ships are orders of magnitude more efficient already. Trucks are a pretty big source of human inefficiency.
- Spooky23 7y agoTrains are super efficient. My uncle is a locomotive engineer. He has one or two conductors with a train that is a couple of miles long. They pay a premium to keep staffing at a minimum -- he can be called with 30 minutes notice to come in and drive a train for a 24 hour period. You'd probably be able to run more smaller trains with automation, but competing with trucks is tough, because the efficiency gains associated with getting rid of people and adding automation are blown away by the need to cross-dock and do the last mile via local truck.
- kaybe 7y agoSo I was a bit incredulous at the claim of miles-long trains. If anyone else is - turns out, there's a wikipedia page which has more information on very long trains (it's true): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_trains
- b_tterc_p 7y agoYep! This is where the western / action movie trope of racing to cross the train tracks comes from. If you can get the train between yourself and your pursuer, it’s going to be a long time before they can do anything to catch up again. Often times in these movies, whoever is fleeing will take a few casual moments to look back at their blocked pursuer because there’s so much time to spare.
- ghaff 7y agoGo out West sometime and wait at a railroad crossing for a freight train to pass. You'll probably be a while.
- LinuxBender 7y agoI've seen them driving along interstate 10. It was getting dark and I thought I was seeing things at first. I'm glad I never had to cross the tracks.
- javagram 7y agoSelf driving trains already exist, or at least remote controlled trains which is pretty close https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control The cost savings from getting rid of a train driver aren’t nearly as great either since the driver:passenger ratio is different between car and train.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- _jal 7y agoI think nobody talks about automated trains because they actually work. A handy map of projects worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#Projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_con... A little story about the MTA's experience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMT_Canarsie_Line#Automation_and_post-automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMT_Canarsie_Line#Automation_a...
- linsomniac 7y agoBack in 1987, at my first job at Hewlett-Packard, they had a little robot that would deliver mail. This was their plant in Loveland, CO, I believe it was the first non-California site HP opened. Along the main hallways there was some sort of retroreflective tape laid down, and the robot, which looked like and equipment cart, would follow that tape. At every stop it would sound a chime and the secretary for that section would come out and retrieve a bundle of mail and distribute it to their people. Super simple implementation, but it worked quite well for what it did.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoIIRC the movie Space Camp (80s?) features a mail-robot, perhaps the kid hides in it?
- mrbgty 7y agoFlight of the Navigator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4v-dMfzp3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4v-dMfzp3E
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoAh, thanks, I didn't think it was quite right.
- ceejayoz 7y agoThere's one in the show The Americans, as well.
- freeflight 7y agoWith the Soviets putting a recording device into the one driving through the FBI's office. Such an odd thing that it might as well have happened, sadly I never managed to find any real history behind it.
- alistairSH 7y agoMy wife's office (NFCU HQ) still has one of these. It feels so very 1970s and nostalgic.
- noer 7y ago>TuSimple and the USPS declined to disclose the cost of the program, but Frum said no tax dollars were used and the agency relies on revenue from sales of postage and other products. Really? This is exactly the kind of thing we should be spending tax dollars on. I have no idea why people think the USPS is this giant wasteful pit of money in the federal budget but they provide a lot of valuable services in addition to steady employment for a lot of Americans.
- kevin_b_er 7y agoIts a common misconception, and it is driven by political interests that want to dismantle public services and replace them with more expensive services that have a profit margin for themselves attached.
- Consultant32452 7y agoFor me it's not a misconception. 99.99% of things delivered by USPS are spam at my house. I don't even get paper statements for any of my bills. 100% of things delivered by UPS/FedEx/etc are useful things I want to get. Every time I go to the mailbox is an encouragement to get rid of the USPS. My life would literally be better if USPS didn't exist.
- freehunter 7y agoCool, we'll destroy a public service that hundreds of millions of people rely on just so we don't inconvenience you any further.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Consultant32452 7y agoHundreds of millions of people are forced to rely on it. I can't be the only person who sees the primary role of the USPS is to deliver garbage to my front yard. The benefit of UPS/FedEx is if they start leaving garbage in my front yard, I can sue them for littering. If the USPS goes away there will be a very short adjustment period when private organizations and official government changes its mailing practices, but it will all be fine. I'm willing to make a compromise where the federal government can require that regular (weekly?) mail delivery be available everywhere in the country, and if it's not available from private sources the government can create one. So if you're in the boonies of the northern most territory of Alaska, you'll get weekly mail or something delivered by government subsidized mail service.
- jerkstate 7y agoHeadline is misleading IMO. This is for long-haul mail routing from post office to post office, not last mile delivery.
- jsnider3 7y agoIt's still delivering mail, just from one post office to another.
- jsymolon 7y agoeh, USPS sortation facility would be better.
- oldgradstudent 7y agoThe mail delivery part is the least misleading part of the headline. The description of the trucks as self driving is far worse.
- nathan_long 7y agoThe company making these self-driving trucks - enormously complex products which could kill people if they go wrong - is called "TuSimple"? Really?
- skizm 7y agoCurious, are these pilot programs sending the trucks out completely driverless? Or are there going to be humans in the "cockpit" sort of managing things and taking occasional naps?
- egwynn 7y agoDid you read the first paragraph? > San Diego-based startup TuSimple said its self-driving trucks will begin hauling mail between USPS facilities in Phoenix and Dallas to see how the nascent technology might improve delivery times and costs. A safety driver will sit behind the wheel to intervene if necessary and an engineer will ride in the passenger seat.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- skizm 7y agoOops. I did skim it, but apparently my skimming skills are terrible. My bad.
- oldgradstudent 7y agoOf course not. > A safety driver will sit behind the wheel to intervene if necessary and an engineer will ride in the passenger seat. There are no self driving cars in existence. At least not ones that are even remotely competitive with human drivers.
- oldgradstudent 7y agoTotally self driving. Well, except for the driver. And also the engineer sitting next to the driver. But otherwise, self driving.
- sneak 7y agoFrom TFA: > “A safety driver will sit behind the wheel to intervene if necessary and an engineer will ride in the passenger seat.” I’m not sure where you went from “intervene if necessary” to mocking what seems to me to be a significant achievement.
- oldgradstudent 7y ago> I’m not sure where you went from “intervene if necessary” to mocking what is a significant achievement. How do you know it's a significant achievement?
- ARandomerDude 7y agoGood grief, give them a break. It's a prototype. Surely we wouldn't want them to turn it loose on public roads without proper monitoring and a human ready to intervene if something goes wrong.
- linuxftw 7y agoI agree. This is a big nothing-burger. I can create a self-driving car as long as there's a real driver behind the wheel when needed. It doesn't say anything about how much autonomy is actually expected. Semi's can't react as quickly to changing conditions as a Tesla. Rolling carnage. This will never work.
- 0xffff2 7y ago>Semi's can't react as quickly to changing conditions as a Tesla. That's true whether there's a human driving or a computer. The only relevant distinction for a semi or a Tesla is whether the computer can react faster and make better decisions than a human driver would.
- BubRoss 7y agoAutomating postal workers out of their jobs first is a pretty bold play.
- 0xffff2 7y agoDoes the post office employ long-haul truckers? I was under the impression that this kind of hauling was contracted out.
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago>> A safety driver will sit behind the wheel to intervene if necessary and an engineer will ride in the passenger seat. This is how you know a vehicle is self-driving: there are two people sat in the front.
- esilver 7y agoThe in-vehicle monitor will likely be a standard part of autonomous and semi-autonomous trucking for the foreseeable future. A monitor can be paid less than a driver, as they’re doing less work, and can respond to onsite issues more promptly and accurately than could a remote one.
- mijamo 7y agoI don't think the quantity of work matters at all for salary. A monitor probably needs more knowledge than a driver (need to know the specifics of the product, how to fix problems etc.), and has the same downsides (long hours, not especially exciting job, bad work hours, sitting all the time etc.). If anything I would think they would be paid more.
- esilver 7y agoIt would be wholly dependent on the load and the technical implementation. In my view the monitor would be a driver with standard knowledge and experience who could drive if the autonomous system encountered an edge case or for last-mile, i.e., from the freeway to the shipping or receiving facility. Under those circumstances a load traveling ten hours with six hours of loading and unloading time would require two hours of active work and fourteen hours of standby. Any driver would accept a lower rate for this kind of arrangement.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y agoIt's not like the monitor will be sitting there playing Angry Birds all day - they will be required to be 100% focused on the road so they can intervene at a moment's notice. Personally I'd find that more stressful than just driving myself.
- strikelaserclaw 7y ago"possible solution to the driver shortage and regulatory constraints faced by freight haulers across the country" - mmm, every industry is facing worker shortage huh -.-
- throw20102010 7y agoUnemployment is very low right now. However, the most accurate statement is always, "shortage of people that have the qualifications we want that are willing to work for the payment we're offering."
- salawat 7y agoNote: Unemployment is measured through participation in various workfinding government programs or receipt of unemployment benefits. It doesn't really paint an accurate picture of how many are out of work, but getting by through alternative or illegal-quasi-legal means. It also in no way measures the number of jobs a defined unit of work can supply, or whether the job itself creates enough of a return to be economically feasible to the doer. It also in no way reflects that many jobs mow push for pre-acquired qualifications, which cost money, and lock out potential workforce. No one wants to measure any of that. That leads to awkward questions.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- zerocrates 7y agoThe US federal government uses a monthly survey to compute unemployment statistics; it doesn't just tally up people receiving unemployment benefits.
- salawat 7y agoSo add "responds to survey" to list of conditions of the measurement, and a link to the survey procedures would be nice.
- skykooler 7y agoHow is the package actually delivered if there's no driver?
- rement 7y agoRead the article. It's about delivering packages from one USPS facility to another not residential delivery.
- OrgNet 7y agoyeah this could have been made clear in the title but they chose the clickbait approach
- keanebean86 7y agoTrebuchet? They could have a notification app or send an email/text that the delivery is there. The person would then waddle out to the delivery truck. Drone, robot, or mechanical arm thing.
- HillaryBriss 7y agodamn. shit is real. guess i'll vote for Andrew Yang.
- skookumchuck 7y agoInter-city mail should be by rail, which is far more environmental and much less costly. The only reason highways appear to be "cheaper" is the real costs are paid by other people (passenger cars).
- 0xffff2 7y agoIs it really cheaper? I would expect rail to be somewhat cheaper but an order of magnitude or more slower.
- skookumchuck 7y agoRail is cheaper in just about every dimension - fuel, track, track maintenance, labor, etc. The downside is it's slower.
- rmason 7y agoI think it might be better if the post office went totally to using robots. I've heard too many stories first hand about its toxic culture. There was a woman who worked in Lansing, Michigan sorting mail. She worked in the back, never had an contact with customers. Every Halloween she'd wear a different costume to work. Three years straight she'd get disciplined for it. Local TV asked if the employees she worked alongside had a problem with it but they didn't. Only management had a problem with her wearing a costume every Halloween. She said they are determined to stamp out all individuality in the employees. What a horrible place to work.
- vital_sol 7y agoI wonder how are they going to fuel up self-driving trucks? You can not drive 2100 miles on a single tank of fuel.
- 0xffff2 7y agoTrucks follow well-defined routes that are already well served by several truck stop operators. I would expect the first truly self-driving trucks to partner with Pilot or Loves to offer some kind of full service option where the truck pulls in and someone comes out to fill it up and scan a tag to charge the fuel to the right account.
- RenRav 7y agoThis is exactly the kind of job suited for automated driving. I wonder if there will be automatic-only highways soon spanning these stretches of the countryside, or whether such a thing would even help.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y agoMandatory computer-control will happen when a critical threshold of traffic is already operating that way, and risk/liability will make the restriction inevitable.
- stubish 7y agoI hope we see an article in two or three weeks about how this trial went. Started on Tuesday, which is kind of exciting, but I'm certain I've seen more articles about trials started than articles about how the trials went.