19 ms·

Boeing Resisted Pilots’ Calls for Aggressive Steps on 737 Max

509 points by aburan28 7y ago

resters 7y ago
How many FAA officials used to work at Boeing (or related lobbying firms) or vice versa?
- cududa 7y ago
  Boeing was allowed to act as the FAA’s contractor in certifying the plane.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    Reminds me of when Tennessee Valley Authority let contractors certify the dams for its coal plans, which they failed terribly at, leading to a dam breech that spread toxic material all over the valley and watershed outside the Kingston Fossil plant. I covered the protests back in 2009: https://fightthefuture.org/videos/tva-coal/ https://fightthefuture.org/videos/tva-coal/
    - quattrofan 7y ago
      Let's hear it for "market forces" and unfettered capitalism, youd think we would've learned in 2008.
      - ahartmetz 7y ago
        The market for political influence is working pretty well, no reason to use scare quotes.
      - Rooster61 7y ago
        I'd argue that this is precisely when free market capitalism will perform its function. This tragedies' fallout is already blowing back on the buddy-buddy corporation/regulatory body relationship that is toxic for a free market economy. It's the rare case where the effects of a negative event have enough impact to actually correct something wrong with the market.
hodgesrm 7y ago
So is Mr. Sinnett still working for Boeing? I don't see how the managers can ride this one out.
- oldjokes 7y ago
  Boeing appears to already be lawyering up their execs while throwing engineers under the bus. It’s going to be all about denying everything now.
  - x2f10 7y ago
    Reminds you of VW...
    - jake_the_third 7y ago
      Except no one is going to jail.
      - darkpuma 7y ago
        Maybe Ethiopia can trick a Boeing executive into visiting for vacation.
        sjg007 7y ago
        Yes but they probably can't subpoena corporate data/emails to complete the necessary due diligence. They need the FBI to seize evidence, if that even exists.
        TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
        Depends if Ethiopia believes the US will declare war against Ethiopia, or otherwise destabilise Ethiopia over one token Boing executive being detained fairly-indefinitely.
        7y ago
quickben 7y ago
"You’ve got to understand that our commitment to safety is as great as yours," Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. Which is a blatant lie considering they opted to DLC bunch of saftety features.
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  It is astonishingly how out of touch Boeing leadership is in everything that they say about this crisis. They "own it" but they've "done nothing wrong."
  - dadsfasf 7y ago
    Or, they know exactly what happened and have a personal phalanx of lawyers writing every statement for them.
    - MegaButts 7y ago
      I don't think anyone thinks the executives are unaware of what happened. OP was commenting on the optics of how Boeing is handling the situation. What I wish the public was discussing is accountability for their negligence, and a solution to avoid similar process failures in the future (and likely jail time for those responsible).
      - throwaway55554 7y ago
        One could make the argument that the execs didn't know until after the first crash. But they definitely knew by the time the second one crashed. They had months to do something and did nothing.
    - isostatic 7y ago
      This is why people find Musk so refreshing.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
40acres 7y ago
Hard to think of a better case study on the perils of regulatory capture than Boeing.
- ReGenGen 7y ago
  Amazing how Boeing was restructured from an engineering & production organization into a political influence machine. Production was spread (and outsourced) from Seattle out to key influential states and HQ moved to Chicago.
  - PaulHoule 7y ago
    Not just US influence but international influence. In the 777 and 787 eras, Boeing decentralized production all over the world, and it's hard to say that Airbus is really a European company because they've done the same. Back in the day so many countries had to have a fourth- or fifth-rate car industry, and to head that off, the Boeing-Airbus duopoly distributed production all over the place so politicians in most countries could point to some part in a Boeing or Airbus airliner that was made in their country to discourage the development of an indigenous industry.
    - dingaling 7y ago
      Which is why the safety cards in US airline cabins cleverly state "Country of final manufacture: ___"; another subtle win for Boeing.
  - jorblumesea 7y ago
    It was the financialization of the company from just producing airplanes to a "global 100 company". Of course, with all of the problems and pressures that go with it.
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  Ironically, the best way forward would be to let this spiral out of control a bit for Boeing and create some room for their competitors. Maybe cause some C level execs to be fired. Make the FAA do their job and hand out some fines, etc. The whole problem here is that Boeing has absorbed all their former US based competitors in the past decades and has only Airbus left as a main competitor and a few much smaller ones based in Russia, China, Japan, etc. This is a unhealthy situation for the market and for the US. It was fine when Boeing was cranking out innovative products that were clearly better but they seem to have a hard time keeping up with competition and are too dependent on government support currently. Easy fix: cut back that support a little. IMHO the 737 Max thing will probably blow over once Boeing implements some relatively simple technical changes. People seem to obsess over a lot of technical details with sensors and software processes. That criticism is well deserved but probably relatively easy to address by Boeing as well. The bottom line is that once they get their solution past certification, that will be the end of it. Their branding has obviously suffered and this is impacting short term sales and revenue. They'll probably have to do some rebranding and maybe ditch the 737 Max brand in favor for a new version. After that, it's likely back to business as usual. Short term this just means awesome deals for carriers brave enough to talk to their sales right now.
jumelles 7y ago
Boeing apparently has no idea how to handle a crisis.
- eternalban 7y ago
  I think Boeing accurately reflects the arrogant world view of its main client.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    This is a great comment! Of course a company can only be a subset of the values of the world it exists in.
    - unkulunkulu 7y ago
      If this is not irony then I have to disagree, any agent with a free will have responsibility
    - isostatic 7y ago
      It's why diversity is so important, in companies, in education, in government. It's not PC, it's an asset to have a diverse board.
throwvatars 7y ago
Too bad this software failure can't be blamed on Indian H1Bs for the lack of quality work of an American corp. If there was a way, Indian H1Bs would have got the blame for sure.
salawat 7y ago
Actually, that statement, >"For flight-critical software, I don’t think you want us to rush, rush it faster.” may come back to haunt them, given it doesn't line up with the paperwork they filed, or with anything about the way they tried to get the plane certified. The fact he said that before the investigation completed implies they knew how critical MCAS was. Something tells me "that was just talk!", will not go over well. EDIT: deparaphrased quote.
- linuxftw 7y ago
  Important point, I think. They also gave MCAS an innocuous name: "Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System" Sound better than 'pitch-up stall prevention system' (my vote is for 'death plummet prevention system') or something that implies that if the system is not in place, you die. It seems there was intent to mislead from the get-go. I'd love to see their internal documents describing the naming of this subsystem because it's got to be highly political.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    It's not even that. It's solely to maintain the 737 type certification to avoid a need for retraining. The pitch up tendency isn't inherently unsafe but it does change how pilots need to fly in certain portions of the flight envelope. Normally this is just something they're trained on but to avoid that we got this bodge of a system in MCAS.
    - linuxftw 7y ago
      Well, this is true only if you believe Boeing's talking points. We actually don't know how bad the pitch effect is. Perhaps a small pilot error would result in an unrecoverable stall. Considering Boeing modified the MCAS's authority over what was originally stated to the FAA (malfunctions aside, which gave it unlimited authority), why should we trust them? What is the absolute probability that no MCAS + pilot doing what would be normal on any other aircraft would lead to a crash? Remember, pilots go from plane to plane, potentially of various types. If a particular plane you don't fly frequently behaves very differently in a critical situation, that's a bad thing. You need the muscle memory. If they only flew the MAX 100% of the time, probably not a big deal. Imagine twice a year you drive a someone else's car. During normal operation, nothing out of the ordinary. However, if you apply more than 25% brake pressure while turning left between 5-10 degrees, the steering input suddenly goes to 60 degrees, requiring you to quickly counter steer. Now, imagine that there's a software mitigation to prevent this over-steer. Now imagine, with little warning, that software system is disabled, and you've never driven the car without that system active. It's lunacy.
throw7 7y ago
Damning article for Boeing execs... just one quote: “We don’t want to rush and do a crappy job of fixing the right things and we also don’t want to fix the wrong things,” Mr. Sinnett said, later adding, “For flight-critical software, I don’t think you want us to rush, rush it faster.” Well Mr. Sinnett, that's exactly what you did in the development of the 737 Max.
- politician 7y ago
  He's certainly making an air tight case for keeping those planes on the ground.
exabrial 7y ago
I'm beginning to wonder if HN is an unwilling part of a disinformation campaign an on 737max? It seems every day now we have a speculative article posted like this.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines by making insinuations about astroturfing without evidence. If you're worried, you can email us and we'll look at the data. People reach for this image to explain why they're seeing a bunch of posts they disagree with or dislike—but the overwhelming majority of the time, it's simply that the topic is divisive, with lots of users on opposing sides. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - exabrial 7y ago
    I'm a bit surprised by this reaction actually. I know it's in HN favor to keep the comment section academic; so my apologies if my comment came off construed as conspiracy theory. Given that early 2017 a heavily discussed topic was fake news and intentional manipulation of social media, this did not seem out of the realm of possibility for me, hence my original comment.
    - dang 7y ago
      Agreed, the germs of the topic are still very much airborne, and that's a big part of it. I think we just have to keep repeating this every time it comes up (sigh). Totally clear that your intention was sincere.
- supercanuck 7y ago
  Change that by putting more effort into your comments.
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  Try riding in a A220 or E190 and see if you still think the 737 has a reason to exist. The 737 MAX is a classic case of secular stagnation, of undercompetion, underinvestment, regulatory capture, etc.
maxaf 7y ago
Why isn’t anyone making the case that Boeing needs to simply go away? If a person had gone out and murdered two planefuls of people, he or she would have been hunted down by the police. Boeing is just a company: something that a battalion of poorly equipped rednecks could mop up in an afternoon. What am I missing?
- rossdavidh 7y ago
  Well, it's over 100,000 people, is one thing. More seriously, the real question is why the CEO of Boeing doesn't get forced out. It would seem time for the board of Boeing to do their job, if only in order to save their pocketbooks. It is dismaying that they haven't even done that.
  - ReGenGen 7y ago
    Look at the Boeing board members. They are responsible for Boeing's current trajectory. Expect Nikki Haley to hold anybody accountable?
- krisrm 7y ago
  Are you proposing that an armed militia hunting down Boeing employees is somehow going to improve the situation??
  - joering2 7y ago
    This is not going to be popular, but I'm pretty sure it would! The reason of all this negligence and death of passengers is exactly this: The worst they can do to us is force our CEO to step down and put what a 1% of our profits in form of financial penalties? We will survive and this is worth cuts!
    - krisrm 7y ago
      It seems most likely to be a mix of ignorance, greed, and incompetence on the part of a fairly small number of Boeing employees and executives. Meriting prison time? Probably, actually. Meriting mass murder?... I mean, really?
PaulHoule 7y ago
What people are forgetting is that Boeing did it all to head off competition from the E190 and Bombardier C-Series, both of which are smaller planes than the 737 but are bigger in terms of passenger comfort while being smaller in terms of noise and global warming impact. Boeing discounted the 737 MAX by more than 70% to force Bombardier to sell the C-Series below cost, which forced Bombardier to sell a controlling share to Airbus for $0. I rode in a E175 and was blown away by the passenger experience; the 2nd generation E-Jets are much better and the A220 is better still. Boeing hopes that you don't ride in one and realize you don't have to settle for a 737. (Not like I trust Airbus with the A220, since they've got the same motivation to string the A320 along that Boeing has to string along the 737)
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Boeing discounted the 737 MAX by more than 70% to force Bombardier to sell the C-Series below cost, which forced Bombardier to sell a controlling share to Airbus for $0. Why would Boeing want to help their competitor, Airbus, like that?
  - throw20102010 7y ago
    Because the only thing Boeing fears more than one viable competitor is more than one viable competitors.
  - addicted 7y ago
    Boeing did all they could to get the US govt to prevent that sale from happening. If I remember correctly, when the sale was completed, it was a common opinion that Boeing’s tactics had completely backfired.
  - Stevvo 7y ago
    The alternative is developing a new aircraft type to beat the competition, which Boeing will avoid if it can due to this massive risk and cost involved; they only have to look at the fate of bombardier for a cautionary tale.
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
djsumdog 7y ago
I know it's unlikely cause, America, but I'd like to see some of these executives tried for criminal negligence. They'll most likely just face civil suits and make settlements with passengers/pilots families ... which honestly isn't enough. Executives need to know fucking up this bad can lean to prison time.
- markdown 7y ago
  You'd have to cause heavy losses (in money or lives) to the rich and powerful to see the executives get prison time (see Bernie Madoff). Some brown people on the other side of the world dying doesn't quite cut it.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago
  Could they potentially face jail time in Ethiopia or Indonesia (where the doomed flights flew from, and the airlines are based)? I'm sure there would be quite the fight over extradition, but it would certainly send the message that you can't escape your negligence because of an eye to corporate profit on a global scale.
  - throw20102010 7y ago
    There would not be a fight over extradition, at least as long as the executives stay in the USA. The USA does not have an extradition treaty with either Ethiopia or Indonesia, and the USA won't even consider extradition if they are convicted of a crime that doesn't exist in the USA.
    - ghayes 7y ago
      Doesn’t criminal negligence exist in the US, along with a number of other statutes that could apply? Not to say they would face trial here if the events occurred here, but there are laws that would apply given sufficient evidence of wrongdoing.
      - throw20102010 7y ago
tuna-piano 7y ago
“You’ve got to understand that our commitment to safety is as great as yours,” Mr. Sinnett [Boeing Exec] said in the meeting. “The worst thing that can ever happen is a tragedy like this, and the even worse thing would be another one.” But yet, even after the second crash Boeing still insisted they continue to fly the plane. It's like they pre-determined their decision and any evidence or additional crashes be damned. I don't want to have too much hindsight though - if the AA pilots union really didn't want to fly the plane, presumably the union could have chosen not to fly the plane (I think it's in most pilots contracts?). In fact, even after Ethiopian crash, American pilots continued to fly the plane. Though part of this may have been because they didn't have the full amount of information Boeing did.
- mevile 7y ago
  It's just words. Actions speak louder than words. Their actions fly in the face of all the nice sounding things they say, and report after report fly in the face of all of Boeing's denials and claims of safety. Boeing has gone into liability defensive mode at the expense of the lives of passengers, the safety of air travel, and America's credibility in aerospace engineering. Boeing is either going to face a major reckoning that they may not survive or maybe we'll have more deaths from accidents due to their negligent behavior. I'm basing all this on the many reports about what is going on around the 737 MAX aircraft published in the WSJ and the New York Times. It hasn't been pretty. I don't think that plane should ever fly again as engineered. It seems to require software to address problems with the large engine and the plane's form that other jets do not have. If a software patch can make the aircraft safe, then a bug can make it unsafe. Does the FAA validate all the aircraft software patches Boeing issues?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    Boeing will definitely survive. It is a behemoth, both for export capital and for defense. Too big to fail. Also, lots of planes require software to be safe to fly. It’s just the way things are nowadays.
sara7262 7y ago
Now you can judge who is lying or who is telling the truth Just watch this and save yourself from others https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/03/detect-lie1.html https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/03/detect-lie1.html Love between lion and man See in video how much they are taking care of each others http://bit.ly/2Yh5oBe http://bit.ly/2Yh5oBe Very funny pets video of 2019 Just watch I am sure you can't control your laugh http://bit.ly/2E1UsQs http://bit.ly/2E1UsQs Love of elephant With human,see this video http://bit.ly/2Jg49Pp http://bit.ly/2Jg49Pp That's sho cute video Dogs are dancing part2 Watch this on link below http://bit.ly/2W2DZpi http://bit.ly/2W2DZpi
_bxg1 7y ago
Just waiting for the other shoe to drop and for all of these revelations to mean something. Hope it does eventually.
notimetorelax 7y ago
I wonder what circles of hell is Mr. Sinnett destined to?
julienfr112 7y ago
When comparing with the Monsanto/Bayer Roundup case, there is a more direct link between what the company has done (or not done) and the death of people. American People died in the second crash, right ? They have a clean shot for suing and getting a billion punitive damage, haven't they ?
- hn23 7y ago
  See, Monsanto would not have had a problem if Bayer had not acquired it...
amelius 7y ago
So when will travelers have the option to filter the aircraft manufacturer/type in flight booking systems?
- jfk13 7y ago
  It exists. I've seen an Aircraft Model filter on searches in Kayak, for example. Not particularly prominent, but it was there some way down the sidebar.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  I assume you mean one that's contractually binding on the airline?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    Not contractually obligated (sometimes it seems they're barely obligated to actually fly the flight you've paid for) but airlines pretty much always fly the same plane on the same flight number day in and day out.
  - amelius 7y ago
    Yes, that's ultimately what one would want (otherwise filtering is not very useful I suppose)
ilaksh 7y ago
The CEO of Boeing should go to prison.
- symlinkk 7y ago
  For what?
  - sseth 7y ago
    As a start, for keeping details from pilots even after the first crash. For example, after the first crash, Boeing did not disclose that MCAS keeps repeating at 5 second intervals. Surely this was relevant information for pilots in life and death situations. But perhaps it would have required Boeing acknowledging the need for additional training, and corporate greed got the better of their judgement.
    - village-idiot 7y ago
      Continuing to lie about the AoA disagree light being disabled is also a major issue.
  - ilaksh 7y ago
    The core feature of his strategy for the company was to sacrifice safety in order to increase profits. It was clear to any truly responsible person that they needed a new design for an aircraft with a fundamentally different mission. He cut every corner possible in order to avoid having to re-certify. From the fundamental decision not to do a full redesign to the decisions related to the kludgey system to keep it from stalling out and how that was managed down the line. At least one person from the FAA should also go to prison. They failed in their core mission. This actually seems very similar to a common tactic that managers of software projects will take. Since they are not being judged on the integrity of the code, they are happy to encourage any kind of hack or corner cutting or technical debt in order to save a buck. In this case the stakes were higher than an average software project and many people died.
mzs 7y ago
now reporters have audio from that meeting: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeti...
ackfoo 7y ago
Most of the comments here are gloriously fact-free. Please read the interim report of the Ethiopia Airlines crash before you form an opinion. Those pilots were systematically under-trained in a school owned by the carrier that almost exclusively graduated men. The male gaze may prevent you from seeing it, you may be literally blind to it, but in 2019, if you are graduating almost exclusively male pilots, you have a big fucking social problem that is going to get played out in the cockpit. Arrogance, superiority, testosterone, no effective CRM, and a social club for the sons of the rich and famous do not produce an environment where teamwork and professionalism are likely to take over in a crisis. The guy in the right seat hit the 737 Max cockpit with 98 hours of total flight time. That tells you everything you need to know right there. These accidents can be reduced to a runaway trim problem. That's all. Easy to deal with for a well-trained flight crew with a good interpersonal dynamic. There was no need to die. However, if you violate the flight manual and all sanity and reason by re-enabling the runaway electric trim when you are low and 50kts overspeed because you can't fly the airplane manually to save your life, expect to crash immediately. Boeing is just the target du jour. Every airplane has a trim system that can fail. To understand how to deal with such a failure is to be a pilot. These arrogant untrained men were not pilots.

509 points by aburan28 7y ago

resters 7y ago

How many FAA officials used to work at Boeing (or related lobbying firms) or vice versa?

cududa 7y ago
Boeing was allowed to act as the FAA’s contractor in certifying the plane.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Reminds me of when Tennessee Valley Authority let contractors certify the dams for its coal plans, which they failed terribly at, leading to a dam breech that spread toxic material all over the valley and watershed outside the Kingston Fossil plant. I covered the protests back in 2009: https://fightthefuture.org/videos/tva-coal/ https://fightthefuture.org/videos/tva-coal/
  - quattrofan 7y ago
    Let's hear it for "market forces" and unfettered capitalism, youd think we would've learned in 2008.
    - ahartmetz 7y ago
      The market for political influence is working pretty well, no reason to use scare quotes.
    - Rooster61 7y ago
      I'd argue that this is precisely when free market capitalism will perform its function. This tragedies' fallout is already blowing back on the buddy-buddy corporation/regulatory body relationship that is toxic for a free market economy. It's the rare case where the effects of a negative event have enough impact to actually correct something wrong with the market.

hodgesrm 7y ago

So is Mr. Sinnett still working for Boeing? I don't see how the managers can ride this one out.

oldjokes 7y ago
Boeing appears to already be lawyering up their execs while throwing engineers under the bus. It’s going to be all about denying everything now.
- x2f10 7y ago
  Reminds you of VW...
  - jake_the_third 7y ago
    Except no one is going to jail.
    - darkpuma 7y ago
      Maybe Ethiopia can trick a Boeing executive into visiting for vacation.
      - sjg007 7y ago
        Yes but they probably can't subpoena corporate data/emails to complete the necessary due diligence. They need the FBI to seize evidence, if that even exists.
        TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
        Depends if Ethiopia believes the US will declare war against Ethiopia, or otherwise destabilise Ethiopia over one token Boing executive being detained fairly-indefinitely.
        7y ago

quickben 7y ago

"You’ve got to understand that our commitment to safety is as great as yours," Mr. Sinnett said in the meeting. Which is a blatant lie considering they opted to DLC bunch of saftety features.

PaulHoule 7y ago
It is astonishingly how out of touch Boeing leadership is in everything that they say about this crisis. They "own it" but they've "done nothing wrong."
- dadsfasf 7y ago
  Or, they know exactly what happened and have a personal phalanx of lawyers writing every statement for them.
  - MegaButts 7y ago
    I don't think anyone thinks the executives are unaware of what happened. OP was commenting on the optics of how Boeing is handling the situation. What I wish the public was discussing is accountability for their negligence, and a solution to avoid similar process failures in the future (and likely jail time for those responsible).
    - throwaway55554 7y ago
      One could make the argument that the execs didn't know until after the first crash. But they definitely knew by the time the second one crashed. They had months to do something and did nothing.
  - isostatic 7y ago
    This is why people find Musk so refreshing.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

40acres 7y ago

Hard to think of a better case study on the perils of regulatory capture than Boeing.

ReGenGen 7y ago
Amazing how Boeing was restructured from an engineering & production organization into a political influence machine. Production was spread (and outsourced) from Seattle out to key influential states and HQ moved to Chicago.
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  Not just US influence but international influence. In the 777 and 787 eras, Boeing decentralized production all over the world, and it's hard to say that Airbus is really a European company because they've done the same. Back in the day so many countries had to have a fourth- or fifth-rate car industry, and to head that off, the Boeing-Airbus duopoly distributed production all over the place so politicians in most countries could point to some part in a Boeing or Airbus airliner that was made in their country to discourage the development of an indigenous industry.
  - dingaling 7y ago
    Which is why the safety cards in US airline cabins cleverly state "Country of final manufacture: ___"; another subtle win for Boeing.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  It was the financialization of the company from just producing airplanes to a "global 100 company". Of course, with all of the problems and pressures that go with it.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
Ironically, the best way forward would be to let this spiral out of control a bit for Boeing and create some room for their competitors. Maybe cause some C level execs to be fired. Make the FAA do their job and hand out some fines, etc. The whole problem here is that Boeing has absorbed all their former US based competitors in the past decades and has only Airbus left as a main competitor and a few much smaller ones based in Russia, China, Japan, etc. This is a unhealthy situation for the market and for the US. It was fine when Boeing was cranking out innovative products that were clearly better but they seem to have a hard time keeping up with competition and are too dependent on government support currently. Easy fix: cut back that support a little. IMHO the 737 Max thing will probably blow over once Boeing implements some relatively simple technical changes. People seem to obsess over a lot of technical details with sensors and software processes. That criticism is well deserved but probably relatively easy to address by Boeing as well. The bottom line is that once they get their solution past certification, that will be the end of it. Their branding has obviously suffered and this is impacting short term sales and revenue. They'll probably have to do some rebranding and maybe ditch the 737 Max brand in favor for a new version. After that, it's likely back to business as usual. Short term this just means awesome deals for carriers brave enough to talk to their sales right now.

jumelles 7y ago

Boeing apparently has no idea how to handle a crisis.

eternalban 7y ago
I think Boeing accurately reflects the arrogant world view of its main client.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  This is a great comment! Of course a company can only be a subset of the values of the world it exists in.
  - unkulunkulu 7y ago
    If this is not irony then I have to disagree, any agent with a free will have responsibility
  - isostatic 7y ago
    It's why diversity is so important, in companies, in education, in government. It's not PC, it's an asset to have a diverse board.

throwvatars 7y ago

Too bad this software failure can't be blamed on Indian H1Bs for the lack of quality work of an American corp. If there was a way, Indian H1Bs would have got the blame for sure.

salawat 7y ago

Actually, that statement, >"For flight-critical software, I don’t think you want us to rush, rush it faster.” may come back to haunt them, given it doesn't line up with the paperwork they filed, or with anything about the way they tried to get the plane certified. The fact he said that before the investigation completed implies they knew how critical MCAS was. Something tells me "that was just talk!", will not go over well. EDIT: deparaphrased quote.

linuxftw 7y ago
Important point, I think. They also gave MCAS an innocuous name: "Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System" Sound better than 'pitch-up stall prevention system' (my vote is for 'death plummet prevention system') or something that implies that if the system is not in place, you die. It seems there was intent to mislead from the get-go. I'd love to see their internal documents describing the naming of this subsystem because it's got to be highly political.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  It's not even that. It's solely to maintain the 737 type certification to avoid a need for retraining. The pitch up tendency isn't inherently unsafe but it does change how pilots need to fly in certain portions of the flight envelope. Normally this is just something they're trained on but to avoid that we got this bodge of a system in MCAS.
  - linuxftw 7y ago
    Well, this is true only if you believe Boeing's talking points. We actually don't know how bad the pitch effect is. Perhaps a small pilot error would result in an unrecoverable stall. Considering Boeing modified the MCAS's authority over what was originally stated to the FAA (malfunctions aside, which gave it unlimited authority), why should we trust them? What is the absolute probability that no MCAS + pilot doing what would be normal on any other aircraft would lead to a crash? Remember, pilots go from plane to plane, potentially of various types. If a particular plane you don't fly frequently behaves very differently in a critical situation, that's a bad thing. You need the muscle memory. If they only flew the MAX 100% of the time, probably not a big deal. Imagine twice a year you drive a someone else's car. During normal operation, nothing out of the ordinary. However, if you apply more than 25% brake pressure while turning left between 5-10 degrees, the steering input suddenly goes to 60 degrees, requiring you to quickly counter steer. Now, imagine that there's a software mitigation to prevent this over-steer. Now imagine, with little warning, that software system is disabled, and you've never driven the car without that system active. It's lunacy.

throw7 7y ago

Damning article for Boeing execs... just one quote: “We don’t want to rush and do a crappy job of fixing the right things and we also don’t want to fix the wrong things,” Mr. Sinnett said, later adding, “For flight-critical software, I don’t think you want us to rush, rush it faster.” Well Mr. Sinnett, that's exactly what you did in the development of the 737 Max.

politician 7y ago
He's certainly making an air tight case for keeping those planes on the ground.

exabrial 7y ago

I'm beginning to wonder if HN is an unwilling part of a disinformation campaign an on 737max? It seems every day now we have a speculative article posted like this.

dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines by making insinuations about astroturfing without evidence. If you're worried, you can email us and we'll look at the data. People reach for this image to explain why they're seeing a bunch of posts they disagree with or dislike—but the overwhelming majority of the time, it's simply that the topic is divisive, with lots of users on opposing sides. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- exabrial 7y ago
  I'm a bit surprised by this reaction actually. I know it's in HN favor to keep the comment section academic; so my apologies if my comment came off construed as conspiracy theory. Given that early 2017 a heavily discussed topic was fake news and intentional manipulation of social media, this did not seem out of the realm of possibility for me, hence my original comment.
  - dang 7y ago
    Agreed, the germs of the topic are still very much airborne, and that's a big part of it. I think we just have to keep repeating this every time it comes up (sigh). Totally clear that your intention was sincere.
supercanuck 7y ago
Change that by putting more effort into your comments.
PaulHoule 7y ago
Try riding in a A220 or E190 and see if you still think the 737 has a reason to exist. The 737 MAX is a classic case of secular stagnation, of undercompetion, underinvestment, regulatory capture, etc.

maxaf 7y ago

Why isn’t anyone making the case that Boeing needs to simply go away? If a person had gone out and murdered two planefuls of people, he or she would have been hunted down by the police. Boeing is just a company: something that a battalion of poorly equipped rednecks could mop up in an afternoon. What am I missing?

rossdavidh 7y ago
Well, it's over 100,000 people, is one thing. More seriously, the real question is why the CEO of Boeing doesn't get forced out. It would seem time for the board of Boeing to do their job, if only in order to save their pocketbooks. It is dismaying that they haven't even done that.
- ReGenGen 7y ago
  Look at the Boeing board members. They are responsible for Boeing's current trajectory. Expect Nikki Haley to hold anybody accountable?
krisrm 7y ago
Are you proposing that an armed militia hunting down Boeing employees is somehow going to improve the situation??
- joering2 7y ago
  This is not going to be popular, but I'm pretty sure it would! The reason of all this negligence and death of passengers is exactly this: The worst they can do to us is force our CEO to step down and put what a 1% of our profits in form of financial penalties? We will survive and this is worth cuts!
  - krisrm 7y ago
    It seems most likely to be a mix of ignorance, greed, and incompetence on the part of a fairly small number of Boeing employees and executives. Meriting prison time? Probably, actually. Meriting mass murder?... I mean, really?

PaulHoule 7y ago

What people are forgetting is that Boeing did it all to head off competition from the E190 and Bombardier C-Series, both of which are smaller planes than the 737 but are bigger in terms of passenger comfort while being smaller in terms of noise and global warming impact. Boeing discounted the 737 MAX by more than 70% to force Bombardier to sell the C-Series below cost, which forced Bombardier to sell a controlling share to Airbus for $0. I rode in a E175 and was blown away by the passenger experience; the 2nd generation E-Jets are much better and the A220 is better still. Boeing hopes that you don't ride in one and realize you don't have to settle for a 737. (Not like I trust Airbus with the A220, since they've got the same motivation to string the A320 along that Boeing has to string along the 737)

chrisseaton 7y ago
> Boeing discounted the 737 MAX by more than 70% to force Bombardier to sell the C-Series below cost, which forced Bombardier to sell a controlling share to Airbus for $0. Why would Boeing want to help their competitor, Airbus, like that?
- throw20102010 7y ago
  Because the only thing Boeing fears more than one viable competitor is more than one viable competitors.
- addicted 7y ago
  Boeing did all they could to get the US govt to prevent that sale from happening. If I remember correctly, when the sale was completed, it was a common opinion that Boeing’s tactics had completely backfired.
- Stevvo 7y ago
  The alternative is developing a new aircraft type to beat the competition, which Boeing will avoid if it can due to this massive risk and cost involved; they only have to look at the fate of bombardier for a cautionary tale.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago

djsumdog 7y ago

I know it's unlikely cause, America, but I'd like to see some of these executives tried for criminal negligence. They'll most likely just face civil suits and make settlements with passengers/pilots families ... which honestly isn't enough. Executives need to know fucking up this bad can lean to prison time.

markdown 7y ago
You'd have to cause heavy losses (in money or lives) to the rich and powerful to see the executives get prison time (see Bernie Madoff). Some brown people on the other side of the world dying doesn't quite cut it.
my_username_is_ 7y ago
Could they potentially face jail time in Ethiopia or Indonesia (where the doomed flights flew from, and the airlines are based)? I'm sure there would be quite the fight over extradition, but it would certainly send the message that you can't escape your negligence because of an eye to corporate profit on a global scale.
- throw20102010 7y ago
  There would not be a fight over extradition, at least as long as the executives stay in the USA. The USA does not have an extradition treaty with either Ethiopia or Indonesia, and the USA won't even consider extradition if they are convicted of a crime that doesn't exist in the USA.
  - ghayes 7y ago
    Doesn’t criminal negligence exist in the US, along with a number of other statutes that could apply? Not to say they would face trial here if the events occurred here, but there are laws that would apply given sufficient evidence of wrongdoing.
    - throw20102010 7y ago

tuna-piano 7y ago

“You’ve got to understand that our commitment to safety is as great as yours,” Mr. Sinnett [Boeing Exec] said in the meeting. “The worst thing that can ever happen is a tragedy like this, and the even worse thing would be another one.” But yet, even after the second crash Boeing still insisted they continue to fly the plane. It's like they pre-determined their decision and any evidence or additional crashes be damned. I don't want to have too much hindsight though - if the AA pilots union really didn't want to fly the plane, presumably the union could have chosen not to fly the plane (I think it's in most pilots contracts?). In fact, even after Ethiopian crash, American pilots continued to fly the plane. Though part of this may have been because they didn't have the full amount of information Boeing did.

mevile 7y ago
It's just words. Actions speak louder than words. Their actions fly in the face of all the nice sounding things they say, and report after report fly in the face of all of Boeing's denials and claims of safety. Boeing has gone into liability defensive mode at the expense of the lives of passengers, the safety of air travel, and America's credibility in aerospace engineering. Boeing is either going to face a major reckoning that they may not survive or maybe we'll have more deaths from accidents due to their negligent behavior. I'm basing all this on the many reports about what is going on around the 737 MAX aircraft published in the WSJ and the New York Times. It hasn't been pretty. I don't think that plane should ever fly again as engineered. It seems to require software to address problems with the large engine and the plane's form that other jets do not have. If a software patch can make the aircraft safe, then a bug can make it unsafe. Does the FAA validate all the aircraft software patches Boeing issues?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Robotbeat 7y ago
  Boeing will definitely survive. It is a behemoth, both for export capital and for defense. Too big to fail. Also, lots of planes require software to be safe to fly. It’s just the way things are nowadays.

sara7262 7y ago

Now you can judge who is lying or who is telling the truth Just watch this and save yourself from others https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/03/detect-lie1.html https://howto105.blogspot.com/2019/03/detect-lie1.html Love between lion and man See in video how much they are taking care of each others http://bit.ly/2Yh5oBe http://bit.ly/2Yh5oBe Very funny pets video of 2019 Just watch I am sure you can't control your laugh http://bit.ly/2E1UsQs http://bit.ly/2E1UsQs Love of elephant With human,see this video http://bit.ly/2Jg49Pp http://bit.ly/2Jg49Pp That's sho cute video Dogs are dancing part2 Watch this on link below http://bit.ly/2W2DZpi http://bit.ly/2W2DZpi

_bxg1 7y ago

Just waiting for the other shoe to drop and for all of these revelations to mean something. Hope it does eventually.

notimetorelax 7y ago

I wonder what circles of hell is Mr. Sinnett destined to?

julienfr112 7y ago

When comparing with the Monsanto/Bayer Roundup case, there is a more direct link between what the company has done (or not done) and the death of people. American People died in the second crash, right ? They have a clean shot for suing and getting a billion punitive damage, haven't they ?

hn23 7y ago
See, Monsanto would not have had a problem if Bayer had not acquired it...

amelius 7y ago

So when will travelers have the option to filter the aircraft manufacturer/type in flight booking systems?

jfk13 7y ago
It exists. I've seen an Aircraft Model filter on searches in Kayak, for example. Not particularly prominent, but it was there some way down the sidebar.
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
I assume you mean one that's contractually binding on the airline?
- rtkwe 7y ago
  Not contractually obligated (sometimes it seems they're barely obligated to actually fly the flight you've paid for) but airlines pretty much always fly the same plane on the same flight number day in and day out.
- amelius 7y ago
  Yes, that's ultimately what one would want (otherwise filtering is not very useful I suppose)

ilaksh 7y ago

The CEO of Boeing should go to prison.

symlinkk 7y ago
For what?
- sseth 7y ago
  As a start, for keeping details from pilots even after the first crash. For example, after the first crash, Boeing did not disclose that MCAS keeps repeating at 5 second intervals. Surely this was relevant information for pilots in life and death situations. But perhaps it would have required Boeing acknowledging the need for additional training, and corporate greed got the better of their judgement.
  - village-idiot 7y ago
    Continuing to lie about the AoA disagree light being disabled is also a major issue.
- ilaksh 7y ago
  The core feature of his strategy for the company was to sacrifice safety in order to increase profits. It was clear to any truly responsible person that they needed a new design for an aircraft with a fundamentally different mission. He cut every corner possible in order to avoid having to re-certify. From the fundamental decision not to do a full redesign to the decisions related to the kludgey system to keep it from stalling out and how that was managed down the line. At least one person from the FAA should also go to prison. They failed in their core mission. This actually seems very similar to a common tactic that managers of software projects will take. Since they are not being judged on the integrity of the code, they are happy to encourage any kind of hack or corner cutting or technical debt in order to save a buck. In this case the stakes were higher than an average software project and many people died.

mzs 7y ago

now reporters have audio from that meeting: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeti...

ackfoo 7y ago

Most of the comments here are gloriously fact-free. Please read the interim report of the Ethiopia Airlines crash before you form an opinion. Those pilots were systematically under-trained in a school owned by the carrier that almost exclusively graduated men. The male gaze may prevent you from seeing it, you may be literally blind to it, but in 2019, if you are graduating almost exclusively male pilots, you have a big fucking social problem that is going to get played out in the cockpit. Arrogance, superiority, testosterone, no effective CRM, and a social club for the sons of the rich and famous do not produce an environment where teamwork and professionalism are likely to take over in a crisis. The guy in the right seat hit the 737 Max cockpit with 98 hours of total flight time. That tells you everything you need to know right there. These accidents can be reduced to a runaway trim problem. That's all. Easy to deal with for a well-trained flight crew with a good interpersonal dynamic. There was no need to die. However, if you violate the flight manual and all sanity and reason by re-enabling the runaway electric trim when you are low and 50kts overspeed because you can't fly the airplane manually to save your life, expect to crash immediately. Boeing is just the target du jour. Every airplane has a trim system that can fail. To understand how to deal with such a failure is to be a pilot. These arrogant untrained men were not pilots.