21 ms·

I Can't Do Anything for Fun Anymore; Every Hobby Is an Attempt to Make Money

488 points by _davebennett 7y ago

kaptain 7y ago
I was going to suggest that raising children was something enjoyable that resisted monetization. But upon further reflection, I would be wrong.
- beobab 7y ago
  I was going to make a joke about children being ideal chimney sweeps, but I thought I probably shouldn't. I'd appreciate it if you pretended I did, and it was really funny and witty, and made you do a sensible chuckle, and it was tastefully done, so you weren't offended in any way. Thanks.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    There are plenty of places today where children are still your social safety net, especially as you go into retirement. We just happen to live in incredibly well-off countries where this need and motivation has largely disappeared (which shows to some degree in our reproductive rates). There's nothing wrong with it - practical reality trumps blind ideals every time.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Even in rich countries, properly equipped children can provide resources that are worth millions if not more. You can't buy the loyalty that a child would have, and a tribe of highly educated, resourceful children is quite a force to have in your old age. In my experience, the families that had 3 to 5 children, where at least 2 or 3 of them supported each other went far further than others. They save money by being each other's insurance, are able to share resources and knowledge, help each other in rearing their own set of children, and the implicit trust is something that can't be bought. Of course, it can all go sideways too, but that's applicable in any situation. But the upside is huge.
    - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
      Being quite cynical, I'm sure by the time I have to retire the government will find a way to f*ck me up. Children are indeed a backup plan.
    - deleted 7y ago
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  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >I was going to make a joke about children being ideal chimney sweeps, Their small hands are great for working on modern cars (especially the electrical connectors with tabs that are hard for sausage fingers to manipulate). When you're carrying something heavy they can make every door open automatically. They also make great confined space welders. All the energy they have makes them great for manual labor too. The manual labor has the side benefit of making them less picky eaters and better at sleeping. Kids are great for helping with all sorts of around the house projects too. Having a helper is an invaluable force multiplier. Edit: Why is this opinion not acceptable here? Are kids supposed to stare at a screen for every waking hour not consumed with school work?
    - tonyarkles 7y ago
      > They also make great confined space welders. Thank you for the chuckle! As a kid who grew up "helping" (often just learning, but occasionally actually contributing), I find your list pretty reasonable! I didn't, unfortunately, learn to weld until my early 30s.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  Wrong in what way? I would wholly agree. I have two kids and it's the most fulfilling endeavour in my life by far. In my 20s I had a drive to become some expert well-known programmer. That all suddenly felt silly when my first was born. I think one of the greatest boons of parenthood, for me at least, is the complete and total conviction and faith that I'm doing something meaningful with my life. Before kids, I always had doubts that I was using my time here well. Before kids, I really didn't know what unwaivering faith felt like. It's really quite reassuring. It allows me to enjoy my career because my career is no longer the focus and the thing that I must get right. Life is fleeting.
  - dagw 7y ago
    Don't extrapolate your unique and personal reactions to and experiences with parenting to the whole population. Raising children is one of the most unique personal things a person to experience, assuming your reaction to it is in any way the 'norm' seems extremely presumptuous.
    - iagooar 7y ago
      He does not do it, as far as I understand his post correctly. Funnily, I quite often find reactions such as yours coming from people who oppose the idea of having children. A parent telling you how happy they are having the kids IS NOT telling you that you should do the same. They're just enjoying it and exposing it as a maybe these days forgotten way of realization as a human being.
      - dagw 7y ago
        As other people in this thread have already pointed out, lots of people have children either primarily or at least partially as a way to attempt to financially secure their future. The OP makes it sound like they're doing it wrong. PS. I am in no way opposed to the idea of having children.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Because there are people and places today and plenty of historical contexts where children were and are investments into the parents' futures. Think of places where universal healthcare or pensions don't exist.
- geff82 7y ago
  Well, indeed raising my children reminds me every day about the fact that I care too much about money. I see them grow up, while I have to do "business" all the time. I really think about moving to a rather remote place where houses are cheaper (yet have good internet access) and then less concentrate on making money, but spending time with the kids, especially on weekends and evenings.
- swalsh 7y ago
  Children are extremely taxing on time. If both parents work, even more so. It's harder to go out (so now you have to cook most nights) the amount of laundry you have to do doubles or quadrouples. Then there's trying to teach your kids the skills they need to be competitive in a globalized society. Combined with a full time job, you have zero time left over for things you WANT to do, and more than likely you're leaving some things you HAVE to do on the table too. To me, side projects are probably a rent seeking activity. If I can find 20 minutes here, and there, and turn it into something that generates cash... maybe... just maybe... I can use that to buy some time.. the thing I cherish the most.
- marcinzm 7y ago
  There's indirect long-term monetization in the sense that when you're old they'll help you.
  - kaptain 7y ago
    You're not wrong, but it's this kind of thinking that the author is referring to. When it comes to children, if the motivation to develop and cultivate comes from seeing them as a long-term retirement plan that can be dangerous if they fail to meet that expectation.
jaimex2 7y ago
Ditto, it's great. It makes me do things with extra polish and put thought on delivery. It's by no means no longer fun, in facts its more so. It's like playing a tycoon sim. The project has to finance itself or die.
- hopler 7y ago
  That seems the reverse. In business, there is rarely polish because it's not profitable to do anything but the core feature, unless you are in a highly competitive market with price insensitive consumers (luxury cars and Apple), but people motivated by the drive to create do polish.
  - jaimex2 7y ago
    Hmm, depends on project size I guess. Polish for me means simplify and make prettier.
pmlnr 7y ago
Social pressure on this is also ridiculous. Every time you start doing things, even if you actually stick to it as a hobby to make you happy, people, inc. family, will go "but you could make money out of this". Don't fall for it. Most of us will not be able to do money from art, from photography, from aikido. Enjoy it, do it for your own sake, to balance your life.
- amrrs 7y ago
  Does it have to be mutually exclusive? I mean, Can a hobby that we enjoy to have fun not also make money? Here's the relationship is unidirectional - do something for fun and if it makes money then it's well and good. Why to drop that just because it makes money (which isn't the original motive).
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - bad_user 7y ago
    Because by sharing your work, especially if you charge money, you’ll start feeling the pressure ... to improve, to support your customers, to react to your competition. This is actually the reason for why many open source developers burn out, even if they aren’t making any money, which is tragic. And you might say that you’ll not fall for it. Well good luck with that. In my experience the minute you share your work with others, that’s when it becomes slightly less fun and it’s all downhill from there.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      > In my experience the minute you share your work with others, that’s when it becomes slightly less fun and it’s all downhill from there. Unfortunately, this is often true -- but there are exceptions. I've had a couple of projects where the experience has been almost entirely positive. There's a lot of satisfaction in seeing that something I designed and created purely to suit my needs has turned out to be used and appreciated by others as well.
    - 7y ago
exabrial 7y ago
Give your time away... volunteer at a shelter, a church, or a charity.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  but you could make money out of this /s
- pmlnr 7y ago
  Instead of coaching for money? Teaching at short courses? This is insane! /s
veritas3241 7y ago
I feel this too. It's perverse and it makes it feel like nothing is worthwhile unless it scales and earns a profit. I get that it's all in my head, but it's a real undercurrent in the west, particularly in tech. I'm not quite sure how to free myself of it...
- swiley 7y ago
  I know I often think this way but I think what made it possible for me to pursue "unprofitable" hobbies was the realization that prophet isn't all that great an objective, it's just nice because it's easy to quantify. It doesn't tell you about the relationships you form or the things you learn. If you focus on things like that eventually thinking about prophet will actually make you feel a little sick and you'll pick up totally unprofitable things like learning Egyptian hieroglyphs and ukulele.
- 50 7y ago
  All that is weighing heavily on us is due to being attached to false assumptions. There is, after all, no actual social reality by which to judge ourselves. It’s all made up and seemingly supported by a deranged consensus reality. We are free as we are before and beyond any false assumptions. There is no need to be anything special and therefore, there are no serious moves to make.
  - shrimp_emoji 7y ago
    Yes! There are no serious moves. Nothing in life is really serious, not even death. But I feel like I need to reach some impossible state of ego integrity or ego death or something to actually live by that line of thinking. So instead, I'm moved by fear and contrived seriousness. I want to be successful, or at least successful enough that one day I can spend my 80s seriously and nostalgically navel-gazing to bewildered viewers outside of my social reality, convinced that I am extremely special. [0] :3 0: https://youtu.be/mmfjM-SGlGs https://youtu.be/mmfjM-SGlGs
bhnmmhmd 7y ago
This has happened to me. I was learning Haskell until finally the pressure of "how will this help me pay bills" persuaded me to stop and learn Python instead. Even with Python there's the pressure of "I can't make an online sideproject by it" which has tempted me at times to switch to JS, but I've resisted that so far.
- onli 7y ago
  Good thing you resisted. You absolutely can do an online project with Python :)
ketsa 7y ago
Bet the guy has a wife or gf influencing this...
- gegtik 7y ago
  his grandfather needs to back off
- sctb 7y ago
  You've been posting a lot of uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments and we'll ban the account if it continues. Could you please review the guidelines? The internet has plenty of snark already; we want to hear what thoughtful and insightful things you have to share. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
nisa 7y ago
I'm doing the opposite - doing unpaid work for a local hackspace like caring about the local non-profit mesh network and doing it-stuff for a local university group. People just don't seem to grasp the concept at all: a lot ask why we run the mesh network and how we finance it - if you explain them it's run for free and there is no profit motive they think you are crazy. It's also surprisingly popular to assume for free = useless - some declined running a node due to this. On the other hand working for free in uni context is basically self-slaverly - lot's of work, lot's of stuff breaks constantly if you run your typical FOSS stuff and nobody is seeing the work and most don't care or at worst you are blamed and new people advocating their favorite commercial cloud services. It's still fun and I can learn a lot, run some infrastructure for free where I can test stuff but you really need to be careful to not foul yourself and depending on the org you are in to not just work for free. The saddest thing about the university thing is: If you advocate to pay that position a lot of - I'm just blunt here: "rich kids" advocate against it because you are at uni anyway and they tell you it's an honour to do this... however if they don't get refund for partly insane travel costs for their university pet project hell breaks loose...
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Told that on Reddit few days ago. 70yo neighbor asked me to fix her laptop antivirus[0]. The thing was sluggish. I came back the following day (unsollicited) to show her a live linux so she can see her laptop full speed (no hdd or os cruft). When i left she asked me how much i wanted. Social tissue is an odd beast. Friendliness is fragile and people dont like freebies. Also i suspect some Stockholm syndrom, since every aftersales ask a lot, they assume anything must cost a ton. [0] which she paid for when things were back in order.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    My experience from teenage/early adulthood as well. Neighbours knew I was the local "computer whiz", so they'd come to me and ask to fix / "devirus" their computers. They always tried to give me money, no matter how much I opposed.
    - 7y ago
dybber 7y ago
Try to find other ways to justify spending time on it. I often justify spending time on stuff because I know I will learn a new skill. Or spend time on stuff where there is a social aspect, where others depend on you.
- laumars 7y ago
  What about "because it's fun"? There used to be a typical response hackers would use when asked why they built something nerdy but ultimately pointless which went "because I can." That equally applies here. Some people build model railways, others like to solve crosswords or sudokus. I like my railways to be computing infra and puzzles to be software problems. It's the same kind of enjoyment but playing with different toys.
theodorton 7y ago
DIVYA And you invented something in high school, right? MARK An app for an MP3 player that recognizes your taste in music. DIVYA Anybody try to buy it? MARK Microsoft. DIVYA How much? MARK I didn’t sell it. I uploaded it for free. DIVYA For free? MARK Yeah. DIVYA Why?
hycaria 7y ago
Have a hobby that is notoriously a money sinkhole, so that there's no excuse for not making money, and no one will ever ask about it.
- LeonM 7y ago
  Can I make a guess that your hobby is car related? And if not, do you mind sharing what you do?
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Could be boats. There are a lot of jokes about that too. But there are a lot of hobbies that can just suck in crazy amounts of money. MTG cards, Warhammer figurines, model train sets, boats, consoles and games, anime/movies/series/manga (I have a friend who has entire walls filled with this stuff). Anything were you end up collecting stuff, especially things which has gained value over time because of rarity and interest from collectors.
    - chrisweekly 7y ago
      As a boat owner, here are my two favorites: "BOAT: acronym for 'Break Out Another Thousand'" "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money." Sadly, it's true. Worth it to me -- for the sublime life experiences I think my family and I wouldn't have had any other way -- but it makes no fiscal sense.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        I recall reading this one somewhere: "There were two happiest days in my life. First one, the day I bought a boat. Second one, the day I sold that boat."
      - mrfusion 7y ago
        Is it too bad if you do your own repairs?
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
It might be worth a few sessions with a professional counselor just to figure out where this fixation is coming from, and what other people have found successful for breaking out of it.
- minikites 7y ago
  >to figure out where this fixation is coming from We're steeped in an ultra-capitalist society, the fixation surrounds every one of us who participates in society. There's a reason almost every conversation with someone new begins with "So, what do you do for a living?". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudnMLzZjTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudnMLzZjTg
- rchaud 7y ago
  Look at the headlines we're bombarded with everyday: - "Startup X secures Y million in funding for a food delivery app" - "8 year old makes $22 million reviewing toys on Youtube" - "Makeup tutorial person on Youtube signs distribution deal with Lancome" There is a never-ending supply of tales of people "making it" doing seemingly mundane everyday tasks. So we start trying to monetize the boring BS we have going on, because you never know.
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cabaalis 7y ago
This is because you have an entrepreneurial spirit, or at the very minimum you have a dollar value that you place on your time/effort. I've been there, It's a curse in many ways.
huffmsa 7y ago
As I oft remind my friends and family, money is merely the means to acquire things you want. Money for money's sake isn't worth anything (unless you get your jollies seeing a big bank statement). So, does having money in your pocket make you happy?
- grecy 7y ago
  > money is merely the means to acquire things you want I agree with this, and enjoy the though experiment of taking it a step further. "Spending time to earn money means you can't spend time doing what you want to do. What would you rather be doing?"
  - huffmsa 7y ago
    Unless you enjoy what you're doing to earn said money. Or rephrased: do what you love I wrote what I considered a great paper (my professor thought it was average) a few years back modeling people's abilities for generating social, financial and familial utility. People who have a preference for something they don't have an equal ability for creating often are often unhappy and dissonant. Eg a "wannabe celebrity". They crave social utility, but often aren't good at producing it, and so have to sacrifice social and financial gains for social ones. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    - badpun 7y ago
      > I wrote what I considered a great paper (my professor thought it was average) a few years back modeling people's abilities for generating social, financial and familial utility. People who have a preference for something they don't have an equal ability for creating often are often unhappy and dissonant. I thought about it as well - there are certainly people whose interest and temperament don't match their abilities and limitations - for example, someone who sees himself as an adventurer, but gets sick easily and thus is miserable through most of his "adventures". It seems like the wise thing to do is to just accept one's limitations, but the heart wants what the heart wants.
  - badpun 7y ago
LeonM 7y ago
As you grow older your time becomes more valuable. But I think the author should take a break from reading sites such as HN, IH, etc. Because in this crowd, everybody seems to be obsessed with having a successful side-business making hundreds or even thousands a month. I take days off from work to work as a mechanic on race cars. I do it for free and enjoy doing it. I have friends who are professional mechanics who think I am crazy for doing their job for free. But it's not all about money, it's about how you enjoy to spend your time.
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  IH?
  - shreyanshd 7y ago
    Indie Hackers (https://www.indiehackers.com/ https://www.indiehackers.com/)
    - chrisweekly 7y ago
      thanks!
- bigred100 7y ago
  I would think it’s more valuable when you’re younger due to the compounding effects of skills or knowledge gain
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    The ones who realize this have a greater chance at achieving long term security.
  - TravelAndFood 7y ago
    Interesting. But when you're older, you have less time. Scarcity usually drives up value. How to reconcile these two ideas?
itchyjunk 7y ago
I seem to not enjoy any activity period, at this point. This does remind me of the youtube channel `frankieonpc1080p`. He has/had over a million subscriber and he used to make dayz stuff for fun. But he decided never to go full time on it because he knew it would burn him out and he would start hating it. I used to think that was silly but have since changed my mind.
thedanbob 7y ago
One of my hobbies is fixing broken phones / tablets. Many times people have told me I could make decent money if I charged more for my services. That’s probably true, but I don’t want to. I ask cost of parts + $5-10 to afford new tools. That plus the fact it’s fun and I’m helping out a friend is plenty. I don’t want the headaches of turning it into a business.
pleasecalllater 7y ago
I have the same thing. However, it turned out that almost none of the things is a financial success, so I went back to just having fun.
undershirt 7y ago
I don’t know how to articulate this well, but “money is god” is not hyperbole. When there is anomie, goodness becomes the pretext for wealth.
binarymax 7y ago
This is the downside of extreme levels of capitalism. We've been trained to seek one goal - and while that goal served well as a proxy for progress, it now does us a disservice. Knowledge, advancement, health, safety, longevity ... these are the goals we should be incentivized for. Compounding those into a single abstract makes it easy to get lost from what is truly valuable in this world, and a side effect is that it's destroying our planet. We are the paper clip machines.
grgaln 7y ago
This is literally me. I am slowly breaking free from this feeling by just doing the things that I put off because I think they won't make me money. I didn't think up the idea and have an urge to do the thing because I initially thought it would make me money, it was because I knew I would find it fun.
stpe 7y ago
I was very much like that. Then by coincidence, I got into RC-car racing. Not only is it fun, a community, and a way to see yourself improve - it is my first non-programming-hobby-activity since being a teenager, and most importantly a money sinkhole - I love it!
- cr0sh 7y ago
  If you ever wanted to turn your RC-car racing hobby into a programming-hobby-activity, you can try to start your own Sparkfun-style AVC: https://avc.sparkfun.com/ https://avc.sparkfun.com/ ...or, compete in other similar races: https://diyrobocars.com/ https://diyrobocars.com/
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bengrunfeld 7y ago
It's terribly sad, but you're smart to take on this approach. The world has turned into a shark tank, and more often than not, we're just toothless mackerel swimming in that tank, waiting to get picked off. And yes, even as Software Engineers. Something I learned while living in Silicon Valley - $130k isn't much at all. Given the right (or wrong) economics, you can burn through that before July. I know it's hard for you Mr Author, but keep pushing, and one day, you'll earn your independence, and then you can do whatever the F you want =)
Insanity 7y ago
For me, as soon as I think of monetizing something I just lose my interest in it straight away. I don't know why it happens. I love programming, and I just put it all up on GH for free. I've actually got a few 'side-projects' which actively burn money instead of making money. I do them purely for fun and learning, and every time I think of making money from it, it turns into a job and obligations. Now if people don't like something I build - I feel no obligation to fix it. :)
werber 7y ago
I just ask myself if something will make me happy, maybe I need to grow up and monetize that.
kissgyorgy 7y ago
I think there is a sweet spot to that kind of thinking; start projects for fun, but keep profit in mind and relax the strict rules of starting a project, so making money becomes a nice bonus, but you can do it anyway. So something like this: start something if it MIGTH make money, work on it until you get bored or turns out it cannot. Move on to the next project. This way you can have fun AND profit ^.^
qwerty456127 7y ago
Do you need this much money? Can't making money be experienced as a game?
albertkoz 7y ago
I think it's quite ironic that even below that short note I can see an ad.
- Fuzzwah 7y ago
  That isn't irony, that's proof of what the author is saying...
bashwizard 7y ago
Find a hobby that is highly unlikely for you to make any significant amount of money from and it will eventually make you change your mindset. I'm never going to become the next Avicii but I like to produce music and DJ and while I do make some money from it, it's far from enough to live on and there is no way for me to to go full time on it. So I stick to it as a hobby because it's fun and a therapeutic way to cope with everyday life, stress etc.
- dbmikus 7y ago
  Like writing books... I laughed when I read that example.
blago 7y ago
Try helping someone else. You could discover joy in that. I have a developer friend who is acting as a CTO to a disabled person - taking care of hands-free communication, smart home stuff, etc. It doesn't seem to take a lot of his time and he always seems happy when we ask him.
namelosw 7y ago
My favorite hobby is playing video games. And programming could be 2~5th position on the hobbies list. Every time I think about this, I would be so glad I chose to be a programmer, instead of a pro gamer. Now I can imagine how I would literally hate my life if I chose another path.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  Just don't go down the path of game programming - that can easily lead to "monetization thoughts". Also - making a game today as a single person is difficult, with the exception of a few niche areas. Mainly because everything most people play are 3D FPS, which take a huge amount of resources and skills to implement, and I don't think there is any single person out there with all the skills to singlehandedly implement a 3D FPS. Even smaller niche games will require certain skills that many software engineers lack - heck, just coming up with a decent storyline or such can be a challenge. Never mind the graphics, music, etc - even for a basic pixel-art style game. Probably most difficult is creating a decent work of interactive fiction (IF); that requires little in the way of artistic talent, but to be decent you need to have the skills of an author (and then some). So...pursue such a thing...even as a hobby...at one's own risk I guess.
packetpirate 7y ago
I've spent the past two years remaking my first game from 2013. I know that even though it has come a LONG way since the original, it probably won't sell, but I do it anyway simply because the original was a pile of hot garbage with a terrible engine and I wanted to do better. Sure, bringing in some extra cash would be nice, but at the end of the day, I get precious few hours to myself at night and on the weekends, so if I didn't take some joy in my hobbies, I'm not sure how I'd stay sane.
nathan_f77 7y ago
I've had the same attitude for a long time, and I've filed away lots of fun project ideas because I didn't see any way to monetize them. My goal has been to get back to those fun projects and hobbies once I have enough income from SaaS apps or investments. If go back to a full-time job, then I would probably start working on them during the evenings and weekends. I've also been tempted to try making a career out of those fun projects, with YouTube, Twitch, Patreon, etc. I'm a huge fan of Colin Furze, Simone Giertz, Abhishek Singh, and Mark Rober, to name a few. Sometimes you can also leverage your following into a successful Kickstarter campaign. I think it would be possible, but I don't really have the right personality for it, and it's also really hard to make a decent income from YouTube. If I didn't have to worry about money, I'd probably do it anyway and upload some videos. But only when inspiration strikes, and I would ignore any pressure to keep making videos if I didn't feel like it. I should also mention that it's awesome when people are willing to pay for some software that solves a real problem. Sometimes you can get more meaning and satisfaction from serving customers and solving a pain point (and earning real money), instead of making a silly project that entertains people for a few minutes. So I'm actually not feeling a strong desire to go back to these silly project ideas, and I find it very interesting and rewarding to build monetized SaaS apps.
rsp1984 7y ago
Unless money is needed for bare survival, it's almost always a proxy / an abstraction for social/peer recognition. There are fields where you can get plenty of social recognition directly without making money. For example arts and performances or anything where you express yourself in a way that is accessible to others (for me personally it's making and playing music). Software / Hardware unfortunately isn't one of these fields because chances are that either your new project is so niche that only very few people get it or because the people who do get it are not the types you are seeking recognition from. So there's nothing wrong with looking for monetization strategies for new side projects. It's just a way to know if others appreciate what you've built, especially in fields where social recognition outside of monetization is a difficult affair.
hartator 7y ago
> I developed this hostile view of activities where everything is a calculated risk of how much time I need to put in versus what I am getting in return. There is nothing wrong with providing value to society.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  This is the old capitalism trope that everything that is valuable to society is profitable. It doesn't add up. Lots of things are terrible for society but profitable because they externalise all their costs (like collecting rubbish for a fee and dumping it into the sea). The opposite also applies.
nasmorn 7y ago
OPs friend Kevin has it right. Make a hobby out of something that you cannot even fathom how to make money out of. Sports is ideal since you will obviously be super bad compared to the worst guy that makes money of it. My old coach is now World Champion in the Duathlon. The money she makes off that would not make my cut for a new dev project. Duathlon is thus a very safe choice for a hobby uncontaminated by monetary concerns. But for most of us the triathlon or running is safe. The risk of becoming world champion are overstated.
- Klathmon 7y ago
  For some the money is just a symptom, not the problem. I for instance try to "optimize" things. I overdo stuff, and eventually burn out of it. It doesn't matter if I can make money from it, I'll latch on to just about anything and my brain will start working overtime to think of anything and everything to be able to get better at it, until I no longer want anything to do with it. It's happened with jobs, it's happened with videogames, it's happened with things like building computers or working with microcontrollers. It's a personality trait of mine, and taking the symptom away (do things that can't make money, do things that don't have any kind of "scoring") doesn't solve the problem, it just changes it. And when I did end up trying to find hobbies that had no way of "scoring", nothing to get better at, nothing to improve on, I found myself pretty depressed. It was something I needed to work on internally, something I needed to talk with a therapist about and learn to manage. And at this point in my life, I feel I have a much better handle on it. But simply picking hobbies that can't become a source of income didn't change anything for me, it just meant that I got less benefit from overdoing it.
- cableshaft 7y ago
  For me it's board game design. It would be nice to make serious money off of it, and it is possible, but most people I know, even with successful games, aren't making enough to quit their day jobs (that pay a lot less than software dev). Hell, one guy I know had a game you could buy at Barnes and Noble he worked on in his spare time for two years, and the publisher considered to be one of their more successful titles, earn only $10k in royalties (which he split 50/50 with a codesigner), so he only got $5k out of it. I could take a simple dev job and make that in a week of work. And it's a very collaborative field, so I get to meet a lot of people in the industry just by going to conventions and offering to playtest their games or help publishers demo their games to potential customers.
CarVac 7y ago
I carefully avoid getting paid for things I enjoy, in case that takes the fun out of them. Programming open-source software? Strictly for fun. (Programming is not my day job.) Volunteer trail building? For fun. (and for the workout) Photography? For me. If someone offers to hire me, I turn them down.
johnstorey 7y ago
This is a common issue, but most do not recognize it. Fewer do anything about it. My feeling is that the author's definition of what is needed, and what is normal, is out of whack. The author has apparently made an income that allows for survival, but along the way has become conditioned to only work for profit. When you feel profit is survival, this makes sense. In the United States for example, you are given this message all day, every day. But once you get past survival needs, and want to turn back to things that give life meaning, you can find you are wired to only evaluate the profit potential. What helped me in the past when I was in this trap was volunteering for a 2 week "vacation" helping people much worse than me. I like to travel, so I would volunteer for 2 weeks at someplace like La Joya orphanage in Mexico. The founder needs help teaching and building sustainable homes for children that can't even imagine the good life. Give some of yourself to them, and see how fulfilling it can be. When you get back suddenly just enjoying music, reading poetry, or doing something else for personal satisfaction will seem much more worthwhile.
- Nelson69 7y ago
  +++ You don't have to travel far to do this. Any medium sized city in the US will have soup kitchens and organizations that try to help the homeless, volunteer some time and energy and you'll get a radical perspective reset. And make no mistake about it, it's hard. Do it until it feels comfortable. It will help you in a lot more ways than you think. You might be able to sustain a transactional relationship with a partner, but you won't have a really great one if one or both of you is continuously keeping score; things just get out of balance and there is nothing that can "fix" it if maintaining that balance is a need. It's sort of obvious too when you're objective about it, there is nothing you can ever do which is equivalent to growing a baby in your wife's body for 9 months, no amount of "girl's nights" or whatever will ever equal that out. I have no idea how you can be a good parent if there is some sort of return you're expecting other than a smile and a hug; it's sort of the ultimate in that you just give and give and then give some more.
quantguy11959 7y ago
It could be worse, imagine the inverse: You can’t do anything to make money; Every hobby is an attempt to have fun.
zubairq 7y ago
When I ran NemCV, a free service for foreigners which helped nearly 20,000 people get employment for free, everyone was confused as they couldn't understand that we did this for free to help others. Even my bank manager and the local tax authority (SKAT) caused me huge problems as they seemed to think I was charging people under the table, as they could not understand the "help others for free" part
jshowa3 7y ago
Ahhh. The glory of capitalism. The reason you ask yourself how much I can make off of X thing is because society tells itself that having X billions of dollars = success.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  I just want to have creative freedom. Money is a major problem that needs to be solved in the majority of peoples lives.
pluma 7y ago
If this is a new idea to you, I'd suggest diving into the more left-wing parts of YouTube, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKeqMJGnVyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKeqMJGnVyQ Basically the problem with capitalism is that it assigns financial values to everything. This becomes readily apparent if you become self-employed as a freelancer or entrepreneur, especially if you follow the advice to "do what you know best" (which often means turning a hobby into a job). Are you reading that article because you enjoy it or are you learning to become better at your job? Are you showing off or are you maintaining your personal brand? Is this a holiday trip or are you staking out new business opportunities? Are you mindlessly immersing yourself in art and entertainment or are you looking for inspiration to fuel your job as a creative? Is that chat with an old friend leisure time or are you networking? You've already been watching Game of Thrones for two hours -- you're actively losing money because you could be charging people for that time if you did something work-related instead. Everything becomes a financial tradeoff, everything is assigned a monetary value until all remaining intrinsic motivation is lost. And unless you're lucky enough to be born into massive wealth or lucked out by being in the right place at the right time with the right skills and identity, you have no other choice than to constantly worry about financial values because your life literally depends on it. Even if you consider yourself somewhat safe and financially stable it doesn't take much to throw you right back into this grind.
netrap 7y ago
Quite sad honestly. I understand what the author is feeling. I too have thoughts about how to make money from X hobby I enjoy doing. I'm trying to fight those thoughts. What I am doing with my free time doesn't have to be worth anything!!
jkingsbery 7y ago
I would highly encourage everyone to watch Kent Beck's 2015 RubyConf talk (which has nothing to do with Ruby): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aApmOZwdPqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aApmOZwdPqA In the talk, he discusses a few things, but one thing he discusses in the importance in doing things periodically for which we are beginners. If you are getting paid to do something, you're probably not a beginner. One way to practice not making money is take up a hobby in which you are a beginner. I don't mean like: I'm a programmer by day, and I YouTube about programming by night (that's still about programming). Find something completely unrelated to what you're doing.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Putting a YouTube video together is something I'm a beginner at. The content might be programming (Something I'm an expert in), but there is a lot about video production that I do not know. Of course after a short time of doing those YouTube videos I'm no longer a beginner and now I need to find something different.
- 0x445442 7y ago
  It must be nice for Kent to just trot off and investigate whether or not his work "matters". For the rest of us, this is a non starter because that effort can't be captured in a story or a task attached to a story on the Jira board. Us mortals might be able to convince our boss that our investigation is worthy of a spike but it'd be bounded to a couple of hours. For us dark matter engineers we need to tell ourselves that, because we're paid, our work "matters".
  - john-radio 7y ago
    What is a dark matter engineer?
    - JakeTheAndroid 7y ago
      people who work on things you'll never see.
redmattred 7y ago
It's worth reading up a little on self determination theory and how they think about intrinsic VS extrinsic motivation if you've never heard of it
jefe_ 7y ago
I started embracing and justifying spending time on hobbies when I realized they give me something to talk about with non-IT people, and that is valuable. If your hobbies are IT work, and your work is IT work, there aren't many aspects of your life to which people outside of that domain can relate, in fact it can all seem quite boring and you end up with, "I'm doing well, work is going well." But if you can mention you went hiking somewhere and took a new lens for your camera, there are several things in there to which most people can relate and then maintain an interesting conversation.
dmitryminkovsky 7y ago
Wow didn’t expect to see other people struggling with this line of thought. I’m still capable of having fun, but what’s disturbed me is the question of whether I’ll ever be able to just lay around and relax again like I could when I was a child. On one had we need to be purpose driven, but 100% all the time? Definitely not. And I find it hard to shake that.
robodale 7y ago
I write software, both professionally and as a "side gig". I spend a decent amount of time behind my house doing yard work and general maintenance. I don't really look forward to those (non-IT?) activities, but when I am doing them I have realized how nice it is to be doing something other than staring at a screen and be able to look back at a physical object (new plant, fixed deck railing, etc) and say "I did that". It's an unintentional hobby, but it does serve the purpose of taking a break from the keyboard.
PeanutNore 7y ago
I build guitar amps and effects pedals as a hobby, and trying to monetize it sucked all the joy out of it so badly that I ended up leaving it completely for about 18 months. I've only just gotten back into it and I'm starting over by just building what I want to build for myself and not worrying about whether anyone else would want to buy it. If I end up with a couple extra pedals or PCBs I can put up on my Reverb store, that's fine. If someone buys them, great! But I'm not putting any more energy into trying to sell them.
eightturn 7y ago
I find it sorta funny that the article ends with an ad : )
imtringued 7y ago
Is this some kind of joke? As soon as your workday ends everything becomes leisure. If you think that humans shouldn't do anything without economic value then why don't you just work a 120 hour week? Watching Netflix is just as much of a leisure activity as creating art, restorating vintage machines or making free software.
jarym 7y ago
I sympathise, so much of today’s world caters solely to consumers and there seems a definite lack of things that cater to those who want to produce (in the economic or monetary value sense). I don’t know what the solution is - but for me personally I try to focus on creating things that people will either enjoy using or need. Peak capitalism might be about running out of ways to produce value (in the economic sense)
rchaud 7y ago
The post sums up why so much of the "early Internet" seems to have disappeared, and why the content on so many websites feels like it's designed for lead gen only. >"I should do market research and see what’s trending and build off that. Self-help is big, let’s try to focus on that, even though I personally hate self-help books." This type of keyword and topic research is why the front page of your search results are nearly always some throwaway blog post from some company trying to sell you something. These results just barely resemble what you're looking for, among a sea of similar "close enough" results.
cableshaft 7y ago
For me, I'm not necessarily thinking about monetization, but about finding an audience. I would like for as many people to enjoy my work as possible. But finding an audience basically requires you to have a successful product (unless you're doing it for free), so the mindset it nearly the same, I'm thinking of how I can get as many people as possible to check out my art, which means I might sand off some edges here or there, or think about marketing or whatever, and then I'm not just doing the thing and enjoying it anyway, much like the person who's trying to sell it. I used to just make stuff and throw it out there in the earlier days of the internet, and it somehow found a decent audience. It seems like it's actually harder to do that now, though, as so many more people are doing the same thing, so it's much harder to stick out from the pack. Also, less and less people check personal websites or blogs, and pretty much only look at instagrams and twitters and facebooks, so if you're not spending serious time on putting yourself out there on social media, you're just not going to get that visibility you're wanting. Which kinda sucks, because I'm kinda bad at the social media part, and doing that feels a lot like a job.
flr03 7y ago
I'm surprised so many people in the comments actually recognise themselves here. Is it a cultural thing, is it american ? Most of my European friends, including myself, just use hobbies to relax from work, the point is not to monetize anything.
- andbberger 7y ago
  Maybe it's just american... things are getting pretty dire over here...
- diet_mtn_dew 7y ago
  It's probably that people who read HN are more likely to be interested in entrepreneurial pursuits.
EvilGrin 7y ago
I brew mead. There's no way I could make money from it. However I can make enough to get myself and everyone around me blind drunk. Free mead quickly stops a lot of arguments.
- cuntfucker 7y ago
  What resources did you use to learn? I am planning on making some this summer.
  - kevstev 7y ago
    This is the bible: http://howtobrew.com/ http://howtobrew.com/ Its the 1st edition of the most popular book to learn brewing by far. Mead is just a slight offshoot from beer, you just replace some grain with honey. This will teach you the fundamentals, then you can just google "mead recipe" and apply the same techniques.
  - EvilGrin 7y ago
    Well, you'll be pleased to know its very easy. My first stab at it was simply following a youtube tutorial on how to make it based on what you can buy at the supermarket (bread yeast, mineral water, honey and some raisins). You mix it all up and leave it to ferment in the water bottle. This turned out rather well. I then bought a basic 'kit' off amazon, and a couple of books. The recommended reading is 'The Compleat Meadmaker' by Ken Schramm and 'The Complete Guide to Making Mead' by Steve Piatz. Start off with simple meads. Then experiment. :) Making friends with the local beekeeping association and LARP group is also recommended. :) There is tons of info on the Internet as you would expect.
    - Kaius 7y ago
      Whats the difference between Mead and the more typical Ale home brewing people do?
kadendogthing 7y ago
Internalized capitalism.
- povertyworld 7y ago
  I think it predates capitalism. Seems like Calvinist work ethic, but in a secular age.
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kbutler 7y ago
I have a friend who is a skilled woodworker. I asked if she ever thought about selling her work, and she replied, "Then it would be a job." Wise words... On the other hand, my wife was volunteering, and the organization offered to pay her for a day or so a week. It let her be more involved in the functioning of the organization, so the (nominal) pay let her contribute more effectively. They'd like her to move toward full-time, but as with my friend, "Then it would be a job."
gvkv 7y ago
I don't have anything to add to many of the comments already posted but I'm reminded of Cyanide and Happiness very poignantly making a similar point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKQ7ouQqgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKQ7ouQqgA.
dpcan 7y ago
I've been doing this for about 20 years myself. Everything I do, that I enjoy, I think to myself "I love this. I want to do this all the time. So now I have to make a business of it?" It was just in the last 3-4 months that I realized - if I love something, keep doing it in such a way that I can enjoy it, but let WORK be WORK, don't let the things I enjoy become my work. Every "fun" thing I've tried to turn into the business has made me eventually hate that thing. I created video games. Had financial success. But eventually hated the game-dev world. It turned out that creating interesting new games was only a small part of that business. Marketing, bug fixing, customer service, taxes, etc, became my life. Then having my hard work get pirated, stolen, and even re-sold by scammers without my permission ended up ruining that business and I couldn't keep it financially afloat. Same thing happened with my escape room business. The escape room business turned into a customer service, marketing, taxes, insurance, safety, and human resources business. Dealing with employees for part time, kind-of on-call, customer service work was nearly impossible. Finding them, training them, firing them, trying to keep them hired, dealing with their problems, dealing with them calling in sick. It took all my time. I ended up trying to do it all myself and that didn't work at all. Then the costs involved crushed me because I didn't realize how expensive it would be. I also love board games. I tried turning that into a business, but have stopped short as I realize it will become the same damn thing. Anyway, I am just going to play escape rooms, video games, and board games now. I'm going to enjoy them. If I create something, it won't have to be for profit, but for family and friends to try. We'll enjoy a Saturday afternoon, I'll have an outlet for my creativity, then Monday I'll get back to my web dev job and make money. I'm not going to love sitting here coding, but that's my job, and if I focus on this job, I'll make good money - enough money to be able to thoroughly enjoy gaming, and even create some fun personal stuff along the way.
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donretag 7y ago
Call me jaded, but this article is pure click bait. Everything is an attempt to make money for the other, including writing click bait content. (monetized by increased brand exposure)
- allenu 7y ago
  Perhaps to some extent, but it was certainly less overt than other articles that end with a plug for a product or for the author.
bitL 7y ago
Heh, I am on a completely different orbit - I pay others so that I can do my hobbies, e.g. studying electronic music production (with an M.A. from a US university), paying AirBnB hosts and airlines to travel around the world, making drone/hyperlapse/documentary movies; paying make-up artists, stylists and models to do fashion photography etc.
raintrees 7y ago
What I found missing in my life was the routine part of money management. I now wish I had studied money management first, then found my first "job." I now have a life plan that I oversee that takes extra income (earned, investment, gift, etc.) and saves it up until it reaches another lump sum amount to continue acquiring cash-flowing assets (I settled on real estate, specifically multi-family rentals). As my semi-passive income increases, it supplants the required earned income to keep the whole system going. And for me that means more time researching things "because I'd like to know how they work." Sometimes I research something and test/play around with it, until I suddenly realize (I am not always that quick, so my sudden takes awhile) that some of my solutions are valuable to others - Then I consider how to spin out that specific service or product to others for their benefit, and the financial (or other - I have been paid in fresh eggs, animal products, vegetables, tools, etc.) reward covers the costs and any extra financial reward adds to the aforementioned savings goals. Rinse and repeat. It lets my mind wander onto new topics that I find interesting first, the possible remuneration comes second, if at all. And until I am completely independently wealthy, I keep a service business going that provides the safety net of making sure all my expenses are paid for. This also frees up my time to work with experts (attorneys, CPAs) to figure out how to treat the US tax code (I am a US citizen) like a game - If I do something (I want to do it anyway) in THIS fashion, I get an incentive/break from my government... This has removed the "I have to make a profit!" stress I was feeling previously. And if this works for me, it seems like it would probably work for others...
xhrpost 7y ago
I've noticed a similar trend for myself but a bit broader. It's more that anything I do, I have to somehow see as an achievement or purposeful. I've been considering new hobbies as of late, but my mental model dismisses them quickly if I can't answer "what would this accomplish?" Unless it's a baseline activity requiring no mental energy (think food, drink, tv, socializing) it's hard for me to consider it without the previous question answered. Example, for the longest time I never read any fiction as I couldn't see the point. Reading some HN comments over the years and hearing reasons like "you read fiction in order to tell better stories", led me to see the "value/accomplishment" in reading fiction. So now, I read a little fiction in addition to all my self-development books, not because I enjoy it but because it's supposedly good for me. I then wonder why all my "hobbies" seem to be draining and not rejuvenating.
- MattSayar 7y ago
  "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted." But if you can't even enjoy wasting that time that sounds rough.
- EnFinlay 7y ago
  I relate strongly with this. Someone made a comic that partially captures how it feels: http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/do-it-turtle/ http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/do-it-turtle/
asadkn 7y ago
I didn't really believe the post was truthful but then I saw "Adsense" ads at end of the post. On a serious note, there's social pressure in monetizing everything you do - the common assumption is you either have ulterior motives or are a fool
character0 7y ago
Ezra Klein recently interviewed Anne Helen Petersen (Buzzfeed) and Derek Thompson (The Atlantic) about this topic. I think they hit on a lot of the things I've been feeling and some of the struggles I have trying to think through a fix — we need to shift both structural and personal thinking on this topic. https://megaphone.link/VMP7590220227 https://megaphone.link/VMP7590220227 These are the two articles these authors are known for: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/millennials-burnout-generation-debt-work https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/mille... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-w...
- frob 7y ago
  That was a fantastic podcast and I came here to say the same thing. The thing I found most interesting was when they discussed curating social media as effectively work, making it so some people feel like they need to post that picture of the birthday/garden/pet/hairdo/etc or it didn't happen and the task isn't completed until you post. It really made me think about how work isn't just cutting into our pleasure and relaxation times, but it is turning things that were initially created to be pleasurable into work.
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scotty79 7y ago
I had a mindset that everything I do should bring in money and if it doesn't it's not worth doing. It ended when after years of freelancing and occasionally working at/for small companies I got hired by a corporation. Suddenly I was being paid more than I could hope for, for doing barely anything. I felt so relaxed and I never again considered my hobbies to be potential money makers.
JohnFen 7y ago
If your doing something intending to make money, then it's not a hobby. I learned a long time ago that (for me, anyway) the idea that you should make your recreational activity into something that earns money is a horribly flawed one. All doing that does is to turn your recreational activity into a job. Part of the joys of a hobby are things like not having to engage in it if you don't feel like it, the lack of deadline pressures, etc. All that goes away when you want it to make money for you. This is why I have a number of "side projects", but I clearly delineate between the ones I do for fun -- which I intentionally avoid deriving an income stream from -- and those that are intended to provide supplemental income.
yboris 7y ago
My coding side-project Video Hub App (MIT open source) is for sale for $3.50 but $3.50 of every sale goes to my favorite charity: https://github.com/whyboris/Video-Hub-App https://github.com/whyboris/Video-Hub-App If you look at http://www.globalrichlist.com/ http://www.globalrichlist.com/ you'll discover that earning even $30k/year places you in the richest 1% of world's income earners. I think it's very much worth to give back in cost-effective ways -- at least 10% if you ask me: https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/
msneidne 7y ago
It's such a disgusting attitude that far too many people have. Not everything is about money.
m463 7y ago
I think most everything checked into github refutes this argument.
tripzilch 7y ago
Near the very end of the blogpost: > I should mention that I am a software engineer who makes a decent salary, so it’s not like I absolutely need extra money. If he had started with that I probably wouldn't have read any further. It kind of makes a rather large difference as to what their personal journal post is actually about. In this case, a luxury problem. Listen up, recognize the problem (check), then .. just try to not do it. You'll find out whether it's an obsessive compulsive disorder, or just a lack of perspective. The latter, having recognized the problem (again, check), ... is easier to correct than changing a habit (like fitness, or meditating, etc). Truly. If your mind still keeps running back to money if you don't need it, that's an obsession. If you find you just don't like it, take up a new thing that doesn't make money. Since you're not doing it for the money, it's fine to drop it, too.

488 points by _davebennett 7y ago

I was going to suggest that raising children was something enjoyable that resisted monetization. But upon further reflection, I would be wrong.

beobab 7y ago
I was going to make a joke about children being ideal chimney sweeps, but I thought I probably shouldn't. I'd appreciate it if you pretended I did, and it was really funny and witty, and made you do a sensible chuckle, and it was tastefully done, so you weren't offended in any way. Thanks.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  There are plenty of places today where children are still your social safety net, especially as you go into retirement. We just happen to live in incredibly well-off countries where this need and motivation has largely disappeared (which shows to some degree in our reproductive rates). There's nothing wrong with it - practical reality trumps blind ideals every time.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Even in rich countries, properly equipped children can provide resources that are worth millions if not more. You can't buy the loyalty that a child would have, and a tribe of highly educated, resourceful children is quite a force to have in your old age. In my experience, the families that had 3 to 5 children, where at least 2 or 3 of them supported each other went far further than others. They save money by being each other's insurance, are able to share resources and knowledge, help each other in rearing their own set of children, and the implicit trust is something that can't be bought. Of course, it can all go sideways too, but that's applicable in any situation. But the upside is huge.
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    Being quite cynical, I'm sure by the time I have to retire the government will find a way to f*ck me up. Children are indeed a backup plan.
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- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I was going to make a joke about children being ideal chimney sweeps, Their small hands are great for working on modern cars (especially the electrical connectors with tabs that are hard for sausage fingers to manipulate). When you're carrying something heavy they can make every door open automatically. They also make great confined space welders. All the energy they have makes them great for manual labor too. The manual labor has the side benefit of making them less picky eaters and better at sleeping. Kids are great for helping with all sorts of around the house projects too. Having a helper is an invaluable force multiplier. Edit: Why is this opinion not acceptable here? Are kids supposed to stare at a screen for every waking hour not consumed with school work?
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    > They also make great confined space welders. Thank you for the chuckle! As a kid who grew up "helping" (often just learning, but occasionally actually contributing), I find your list pretty reasonable! I didn't, unfortunately, learn to weld until my early 30s.
Waterluvian 7y ago
Wrong in what way? I would wholly agree. I have two kids and it's the most fulfilling endeavour in my life by far. In my 20s I had a drive to become some expert well-known programmer. That all suddenly felt silly when my first was born. I think one of the greatest boons of parenthood, for me at least, is the complete and total conviction and faith that I'm doing something meaningful with my life. Before kids, I always had doubts that I was using my time here well. Before kids, I really didn't know what unwaivering faith felt like. It's really quite reassuring. It allows me to enjoy my career because my career is no longer the focus and the thing that I must get right. Life is fleeting.
- dagw 7y ago
  Don't extrapolate your unique and personal reactions to and experiences with parenting to the whole population. Raising children is one of the most unique personal things a person to experience, assuming your reaction to it is in any way the 'norm' seems extremely presumptuous.
  - iagooar 7y ago
    He does not do it, as far as I understand his post correctly. Funnily, I quite often find reactions such as yours coming from people who oppose the idea of having children. A parent telling you how happy they are having the kids IS NOT telling you that you should do the same. They're just enjoying it and exposing it as a maybe these days forgotten way of realization as a human being.
    - dagw 7y ago
      As other people in this thread have already pointed out, lots of people have children either primarily or at least partially as a way to attempt to financially secure their future. The OP makes it sound like they're doing it wrong. PS. I am in no way opposed to the idea of having children.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Because there are people and places today and plenty of historical contexts where children were and are investments into the parents' futures. Think of places where universal healthcare or pensions don't exist.
geff82 7y ago
Well, indeed raising my children reminds me every day about the fact that I care too much about money. I see them grow up, while I have to do "business" all the time. I really think about moving to a rather remote place where houses are cheaper (yet have good internet access) and then less concentrate on making money, but spending time with the kids, especially on weekends and evenings.
swalsh 7y ago
Children are extremely taxing on time. If both parents work, even more so. It's harder to go out (so now you have to cook most nights) the amount of laundry you have to do doubles or quadrouples. Then there's trying to teach your kids the skills they need to be competitive in a globalized society. Combined with a full time job, you have zero time left over for things you WANT to do, and more than likely you're leaving some things you HAVE to do on the table too. To me, side projects are probably a rent seeking activity. If I can find 20 minutes here, and there, and turn it into something that generates cash... maybe... just maybe... I can use that to buy some time.. the thing I cherish the most.
marcinzm 7y ago
There's indirect long-term monetization in the sense that when you're old they'll help you.
- kaptain 7y ago
  You're not wrong, but it's this kind of thinking that the author is referring to. When it comes to children, if the motivation to develop and cultivate comes from seeing them as a long-term retirement plan that can be dangerous if they fail to meet that expectation.

jaimex2 7y ago

Ditto, it's great. It makes me do things with extra polish and put thought on delivery. It's by no means no longer fun, in facts its more so. It's like playing a tycoon sim. The project has to finance itself or die.

hopler 7y ago
That seems the reverse. In business, there is rarely polish because it's not profitable to do anything but the core feature, unless you are in a highly competitive market with price insensitive consumers (luxury cars and Apple), but people motivated by the drive to create do polish.
- jaimex2 7y ago
  Hmm, depends on project size I guess. Polish for me means simplify and make prettier.

pmlnr 7y ago

Social pressure on this is also ridiculous. Every time you start doing things, even if you actually stick to it as a hobby to make you happy, people, inc. family, will go "but you could make money out of this". Don't fall for it. Most of us will not be able to do money from art, from photography, from aikido. Enjoy it, do it for your own sake, to balance your life.

amrrs 7y ago
Does it have to be mutually exclusive? I mean, Can a hobby that we enjoy to have fun not also make money? Here's the relationship is unidirectional - do something for fun and if it makes money then it's well and good. Why to drop that just because it makes money (which isn't the original motive).
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- bad_user 7y ago
  Because by sharing your work, especially if you charge money, you’ll start feeling the pressure ... to improve, to support your customers, to react to your competition. This is actually the reason for why many open source developers burn out, even if they aren’t making any money, which is tragic. And you might say that you’ll not fall for it. Well good luck with that. In my experience the minute you share your work with others, that’s when it becomes slightly less fun and it’s all downhill from there.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    > In my experience the minute you share your work with others, that’s when it becomes slightly less fun and it’s all downhill from there. Unfortunately, this is often true -- but there are exceptions. I've had a couple of projects where the experience has been almost entirely positive. There's a lot of satisfaction in seeing that something I designed and created purely to suit my needs has turned out to be used and appreciated by others as well.
  - 7y ago

exabrial 7y ago

Give your time away... volunteer at a shelter, a church, or a charity.

NullPrefix 7y ago
but you could make money out of this /s
pmlnr 7y ago
Instead of coaching for money? Teaching at short courses? This is insane! /s

veritas3241 7y ago

I feel this too. It's perverse and it makes it feel like nothing is worthwhile unless it scales and earns a profit. I get that it's all in my head, but it's a real undercurrent in the west, particularly in tech. I'm not quite sure how to free myself of it...

swiley 7y ago
I know I often think this way but I think what made it possible for me to pursue "unprofitable" hobbies was the realization that prophet isn't all that great an objective, it's just nice because it's easy to quantify. It doesn't tell you about the relationships you form or the things you learn. If you focus on things like that eventually thinking about prophet will actually make you feel a little sick and you'll pick up totally unprofitable things like learning Egyptian hieroglyphs and ukulele.
50 7y ago
All that is weighing heavily on us is due to being attached to false assumptions. There is, after all, no actual social reality by which to judge ourselves. It’s all made up and seemingly supported by a deranged consensus reality. We are free as we are before and beyond any false assumptions. There is no need to be anything special and therefore, there are no serious moves to make.
- shrimp_emoji 7y ago
  Yes! There are no serious moves. Nothing in life is really serious, not even death. But I feel like I need to reach some impossible state of ego integrity or ego death or something to actually live by that line of thinking. So instead, I'm moved by fear and contrived seriousness. I want to be successful, or at least successful enough that one day I can spend my 80s seriously and nostalgically navel-gazing to bewildered viewers outside of my social reality, convinced that I am extremely special. [0] :3 0: https://youtu.be/mmfjM-SGlGs https://youtu.be/mmfjM-SGlGs

bhnmmhmd 7y ago

This has happened to me. I was learning Haskell until finally the pressure of "how will this help me pay bills" persuaded me to stop and learn Python instead. Even with Python there's the pressure of "I can't make an online sideproject by it" which has tempted me at times to switch to JS, but I've resisted that so far.

onli 7y ago
Good thing you resisted. You absolutely can do an online project with Python :)

ketsa 7y ago

Bet the guy has a wife or gf influencing this...

gegtik 7y ago
his grandfather needs to back off
sctb 7y ago
You've been posting a lot of uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments and we'll ban the account if it continues. Could you please review the guidelines? The internet has plenty of snark already; we want to hear what thoughtful and insightful things you have to share. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

nisa 7y ago

I'm doing the opposite - doing unpaid work for a local hackspace like caring about the local non-profit mesh network and doing it-stuff for a local university group. People just don't seem to grasp the concept at all: a lot ask why we run the mesh network and how we finance it - if you explain them it's run for free and there is no profit motive they think you are crazy. It's also surprisingly popular to assume for free = useless - some declined running a node due to this. On the other hand working for free in uni context is basically self-slaverly - lot's of work, lot's of stuff breaks constantly if you run your typical FOSS stuff and nobody is seeing the work and most don't care or at worst you are blamed and new people advocating their favorite commercial cloud services. It's still fun and I can learn a lot, run some infrastructure for free where I can test stuff but you really need to be careful to not foul yourself and depending on the org you are in to not just work for free. The saddest thing about the university thing is: If you advocate to pay that position a lot of - I'm just blunt here: "rich kids" advocate against it because you are at uni anyway and they tell you it's an honour to do this... however if they don't get refund for partly insane travel costs for their university pet project hell breaks loose...

agumonkey 7y ago
Told that on Reddit few days ago. 70yo neighbor asked me to fix her laptop antivirus[0]. The thing was sluggish. I came back the following day (unsollicited) to show her a live linux so she can see her laptop full speed (no hdd or os cruft). When i left she asked me how much i wanted. Social tissue is an odd beast. Friendliness is fragile and people dont like freebies. Also i suspect some Stockholm syndrom, since every aftersales ask a lot, they assume anything must cost a ton. [0] which she paid for when things were back in order.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  My experience from teenage/early adulthood as well. Neighbours knew I was the local "computer whiz", so they'd come to me and ask to fix / "devirus" their computers. They always tried to give me money, no matter how much I opposed.
  - 7y ago

dybber 7y ago

Try to find other ways to justify spending time on it. I often justify spending time on stuff because I know I will learn a new skill. Or spend time on stuff where there is a social aspect, where others depend on you.

laumars 7y ago
What about "because it's fun"? There used to be a typical response hackers would use when asked why they built something nerdy but ultimately pointless which went "because I can." That equally applies here. Some people build model railways, others like to solve crosswords or sudokus. I like my railways to be computing infra and puzzles to be software problems. It's the same kind of enjoyment but playing with different toys.

theodorton 7y ago

DIVYA And you invented something in high school, right? MARK An app for an MP3 player that recognizes your taste in music. DIVYA Anybody try to buy it? MARK Microsoft. DIVYA How much? MARK I didn’t sell it. I uploaded it for free. DIVYA For free? MARK Yeah. DIVYA Why?

hycaria 7y ago

Have a hobby that is notoriously a money sinkhole, so that there's no excuse for not making money, and no one will ever ask about it.

LeonM 7y ago
Can I make a guess that your hobby is car related? And if not, do you mind sharing what you do?
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Could be boats. There are a lot of jokes about that too. But there are a lot of hobbies that can just suck in crazy amounts of money. MTG cards, Warhammer figurines, model train sets, boats, consoles and games, anime/movies/series/manga (I have a friend who has entire walls filled with this stuff). Anything were you end up collecting stuff, especially things which has gained value over time because of rarity and interest from collectors.
  - chrisweekly 7y ago
    As a boat owner, here are my two favorites: "BOAT: acronym for 'Break Out Another Thousand'" "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money." Sadly, it's true. Worth it to me -- for the sublime life experiences I think my family and I wouldn't have had any other way -- but it makes no fiscal sense.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      I recall reading this one somewhere: "There were two happiest days in my life. First one, the day I bought a boat. Second one, the day I sold that boat."
    - mrfusion 7y ago
      Is it too bad if you do your own repairs?

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago

It might be worth a few sessions with a professional counselor just to figure out where this fixation is coming from, and what other people have found successful for breaking out of it.

minikites 7y ago
>to figure out where this fixation is coming from We're steeped in an ultra-capitalist society, the fixation surrounds every one of us who participates in society. There's a reason almost every conversation with someone new begins with "So, what do you do for a living?". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudnMLzZjTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudnMLzZjTg
rchaud 7y ago
Look at the headlines we're bombarded with everyday: - "Startup X secures Y million in funding for a food delivery app" - "8 year old makes $22 million reviewing toys on Youtube" - "Makeup tutorial person on Youtube signs distribution deal with Lancome" There is a never-ending supply of tales of people "making it" doing seemingly mundane everyday tasks. So we start trying to monetize the boring BS we have going on, because you never know.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cabaalis 7y ago

This is because you have an entrepreneurial spirit, or at the very minimum you have a dollar value that you place on your time/effort. I've been there, It's a curse in many ways.

huffmsa 7y ago

As I oft remind my friends and family, money is merely the means to acquire things you want. Money for money's sake isn't worth anything (unless you get your jollies seeing a big bank statement). So, does having money in your pocket make you happy?

grecy 7y ago
> money is merely the means to acquire things you want I agree with this, and enjoy the though experiment of taking it a step further. "Spending time to earn money means you can't spend time doing what you want to do. What would you rather be doing?"
- huffmsa 7y ago
  Unless you enjoy what you're doing to earn said money. Or rephrased: do what you love I wrote what I considered a great paper (my professor thought it was average) a few years back modeling people's abilities for generating social, financial and familial utility. People who have a preference for something they don't have an equal ability for creating often are often unhappy and dissonant. Eg a "wannabe celebrity". They crave social utility, but often aren't good at producing it, and so have to sacrifice social and financial gains for social ones. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
  - badpun 7y ago
    > I wrote what I considered a great paper (my professor thought it was average) a few years back modeling people's abilities for generating social, financial and familial utility. People who have a preference for something they don't have an equal ability for creating often are often unhappy and dissonant. I thought about it as well - there are certainly people whose interest and temperament don't match their abilities and limitations - for example, someone who sees himself as an adventurer, but gets sick easily and thus is miserable through most of his "adventures". It seems like the wise thing to do is to just accept one's limitations, but the heart wants what the heart wants.
- badpun 7y ago

LeonM 7y ago

As you grow older your time becomes more valuable. But I think the author should take a break from reading sites such as HN, IH, etc. Because in this crowd, everybody seems to be obsessed with having a successful side-business making hundreds or even thousands a month. I take days off from work to work as a mechanic on race cars. I do it for free and enjoy doing it. I have friends who are professional mechanics who think I am crazy for doing their job for free. But it's not all about money, it's about how you enjoy to spend your time.

chrisweekly 7y ago
IH?
- shreyanshd 7y ago
  Indie Hackers (https://www.indiehackers.com/ https://www.indiehackers.com/)
  - chrisweekly 7y ago
    thanks!
bigred100 7y ago
I would think it’s more valuable when you’re younger due to the compounding effects of skills or knowledge gain
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  The ones who realize this have a greater chance at achieving long term security.
- TravelAndFood 7y ago
  Interesting. But when you're older, you have less time. Scarcity usually drives up value. How to reconcile these two ideas?

itchyjunk 7y ago

I seem to not enjoy any activity period, at this point. This does remind me of the youtube channel `frankieonpc1080p`. He has/had over a million subscriber and he used to make dayz stuff for fun. But he decided never to go full time on it because he knew it would burn him out and he would start hating it. I used to think that was silly but have since changed my mind.

thedanbob 7y ago

One of my hobbies is fixing broken phones / tablets. Many times people have told me I could make decent money if I charged more for my services. That’s probably true, but I don’t want to. I ask cost of parts + $5-10 to afford new tools. That plus the fact it’s fun and I’m helping out a friend is plenty. I don’t want the headaches of turning it into a business.

pleasecalllater 7y ago

I have the same thing. However, it turned out that almost none of the things is a financial success, so I went back to just having fun.

undershirt 7y ago

I don’t know how to articulate this well, but “money is god” is not hyperbole. When there is anomie, goodness becomes the pretext for wealth.

binarymax 7y ago

This is the downside of extreme levels of capitalism. We've been trained to seek one goal - and while that goal served well as a proxy for progress, it now does us a disservice. Knowledge, advancement, health, safety, longevity ... these are the goals we should be incentivized for. Compounding those into a single abstract makes it easy to get lost from what is truly valuable in this world, and a side effect is that it's destroying our planet. We are the paper clip machines.

grgaln 7y ago

This is literally me. I am slowly breaking free from this feeling by just doing the things that I put off because I think they won't make me money. I didn't think up the idea and have an urge to do the thing because I initially thought it would make me money, it was because I knew I would find it fun.

stpe 7y ago

I was very much like that. Then by coincidence, I got into RC-car racing. Not only is it fun, a community, and a way to see yourself improve - it is my first non-programming-hobby-activity since being a teenager, and most importantly a money sinkhole - I love it!

cr0sh 7y ago
If you ever wanted to turn your RC-car racing hobby into a programming-hobby-activity, you can try to start your own Sparkfun-style AVC: https://avc.sparkfun.com/ https://avc.sparkfun.com/ ...or, compete in other similar races: https://diyrobocars.com/ https://diyrobocars.com/

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bengrunfeld 7y ago

It's terribly sad, but you're smart to take on this approach. The world has turned into a shark tank, and more often than not, we're just toothless mackerel swimming in that tank, waiting to get picked off. And yes, even as Software Engineers. Something I learned while living in Silicon Valley - $130k isn't much at all. Given the right (or wrong) economics, you can burn through that before July. I know it's hard for you Mr Author, but keep pushing, and one day, you'll earn your independence, and then you can do whatever the F you want =)

Insanity 7y ago

For me, as soon as I think of monetizing something I just lose my interest in it straight away. I don't know why it happens. I love programming, and I just put it all up on GH for free. I've actually got a few 'side-projects' which actively burn money instead of making money. I do them purely for fun and learning, and every time I think of making money from it, it turns into a job and obligations. Now if people don't like something I build - I feel no obligation to fix it. :)

werber 7y ago

I just ask myself if something will make me happy, maybe I need to grow up and monetize that.

kissgyorgy 7y ago

I think there is a sweet spot to that kind of thinking; start projects for fun, but keep profit in mind and relax the strict rules of starting a project, so making money becomes a nice bonus, but you can do it anyway. So something like this: start something if it MIGTH make money, work on it until you get bored or turns out it cannot. Move on to the next project. This way you can have fun AND profit ^.^

qwerty456127 7y ago

Do you need this much money? Can't making money be experienced as a game?

albertkoz 7y ago

I think it's quite ironic that even below that short note I can see an ad.

Fuzzwah 7y ago
That isn't irony, that's proof of what the author is saying...

bashwizard 7y ago

Find a hobby that is highly unlikely for you to make any significant amount of money from and it will eventually make you change your mindset. I'm never going to become the next Avicii but I like to produce music and DJ and while I do make some money from it, it's far from enough to live on and there is no way for me to to go full time on it. So I stick to it as a hobby because it's fun and a therapeutic way to cope with everyday life, stress etc.

dbmikus 7y ago
Like writing books... I laughed when I read that example.

blago 7y ago

Try helping someone else. You could discover joy in that. I have a developer friend who is acting as a CTO to a disabled person - taking care of hands-free communication, smart home stuff, etc. It doesn't seem to take a lot of his time and he always seems happy when we ask him.

namelosw 7y ago

My favorite hobby is playing video games. And programming could be 2~5th position on the hobbies list. Every time I think about this, I would be so glad I chose to be a programmer, instead of a pro gamer. Now I can imagine how I would literally hate my life if I chose another path.

cr0sh 7y ago
Just don't go down the path of game programming - that can easily lead to "monetization thoughts". Also - making a game today as a single person is difficult, with the exception of a few niche areas. Mainly because everything most people play are 3D FPS, which take a huge amount of resources and skills to implement, and I don't think there is any single person out there with all the skills to singlehandedly implement a 3D FPS. Even smaller niche games will require certain skills that many software engineers lack - heck, just coming up with a decent storyline or such can be a challenge. Never mind the graphics, music, etc - even for a basic pixel-art style game. Probably most difficult is creating a decent work of interactive fiction (IF); that requires little in the way of artistic talent, but to be decent you need to have the skills of an author (and then some). So...pursue such a thing...even as a hobby...at one's own risk I guess.

packetpirate 7y ago

I've spent the past two years remaking my first game from 2013. I know that even though it has come a LONG way since the original, it probably won't sell, but I do it anyway simply because the original was a pile of hot garbage with a terrible engine and I wanted to do better. Sure, bringing in some extra cash would be nice, but at the end of the day, I get precious few hours to myself at night and on the weekends, so if I didn't take some joy in my hobbies, I'm not sure how I'd stay sane.

nathan_f77 7y ago

I've had the same attitude for a long time, and I've filed away lots of fun project ideas because I didn't see any way to monetize them. My goal has been to get back to those fun projects and hobbies once I have enough income from SaaS apps or investments. If go back to a full-time job, then I would probably start working on them during the evenings and weekends. I've also been tempted to try making a career out of those fun projects, with YouTube, Twitch, Patreon, etc. I'm a huge fan of Colin Furze, Simone Giertz, Abhishek Singh, and Mark Rober, to name a few. Sometimes you can also leverage your following into a successful Kickstarter campaign. I think it would be possible, but I don't really have the right personality for it, and it's also really hard to make a decent income from YouTube. If I didn't have to worry about money, I'd probably do it anyway and upload some videos. But only when inspiration strikes, and I would ignore any pressure to keep making videos if I didn't feel like it. I should also mention that it's awesome when people are willing to pay for some software that solves a real problem. Sometimes you can get more meaning and satisfaction from serving customers and solving a pain point (and earning real money), instead of making a silly project that entertains people for a few minutes. So I'm actually not feeling a strong desire to go back to these silly project ideas, and I find it very interesting and rewarding to build monetized SaaS apps.

rsp1984 7y ago

Unless money is needed for bare survival, it's almost always a proxy / an abstraction for social/peer recognition. There are fields where you can get plenty of social recognition directly without making money. For example arts and performances or anything where you express yourself in a way that is accessible to others (for me personally it's making and playing music). Software / Hardware unfortunately isn't one of these fields because chances are that either your new project is so niche that only very few people get it or because the people who do get it are not the types you are seeking recognition from. So there's nothing wrong with looking for monetization strategies for new side projects. It's just a way to know if others appreciate what you've built, especially in fields where social recognition outside of monetization is a difficult affair.

hartator 7y ago

> I developed this hostile view of activities where everything is a calculated risk of how much time I need to put in versus what I am getting in return. There is nothing wrong with providing value to society.

rorykoehler 7y ago
This is the old capitalism trope that everything that is valuable to society is profitable. It doesn't add up. Lots of things are terrible for society but profitable because they externalise all their costs (like collecting rubbish for a fee and dumping it into the sea). The opposite also applies.

nasmorn 7y ago

OPs friend Kevin has it right. Make a hobby out of something that you cannot even fathom how to make money out of. Sports is ideal since you will obviously be super bad compared to the worst guy that makes money of it. My old coach is now World Champion in the Duathlon. The money she makes off that would not make my cut for a new dev project. Duathlon is thus a very safe choice for a hobby uncontaminated by monetary concerns. But for most of us the triathlon or running is safe. The risk of becoming world champion are overstated.

Klathmon 7y ago
For some the money is just a symptom, not the problem. I for instance try to "optimize" things. I overdo stuff, and eventually burn out of it. It doesn't matter if I can make money from it, I'll latch on to just about anything and my brain will start working overtime to think of anything and everything to be able to get better at it, until I no longer want anything to do with it. It's happened with jobs, it's happened with videogames, it's happened with things like building computers or working with microcontrollers. It's a personality trait of mine, and taking the symptom away (do things that can't make money, do things that don't have any kind of "scoring") doesn't solve the problem, it just changes it. And when I did end up trying to find hobbies that had no way of "scoring", nothing to get better at, nothing to improve on, I found myself pretty depressed. It was something I needed to work on internally, something I needed to talk with a therapist about and learn to manage. And at this point in my life, I feel I have a much better handle on it. But simply picking hobbies that can't become a source of income didn't change anything for me, it just meant that I got less benefit from overdoing it.
cableshaft 7y ago
For me it's board game design. It would be nice to make serious money off of it, and it is possible, but most people I know, even with successful games, aren't making enough to quit their day jobs (that pay a lot less than software dev). Hell, one guy I know had a game you could buy at Barnes and Noble he worked on in his spare time for two years, and the publisher considered to be one of their more successful titles, earn only $10k in royalties (which he split 50/50 with a codesigner), so he only got $5k out of it. I could take a simple dev job and make that in a week of work. And it's a very collaborative field, so I get to meet a lot of people in the industry just by going to conventions and offering to playtest their games or help publishers demo their games to potential customers.

CarVac 7y ago

I carefully avoid getting paid for things I enjoy, in case that takes the fun out of them. Programming open-source software? Strictly for fun. (Programming is not my day job.) Volunteer trail building? For fun. (and for the workout) Photography? For me. If someone offers to hire me, I turn them down.

johnstorey 7y ago

This is a common issue, but most do not recognize it. Fewer do anything about it. My feeling is that the author's definition of what is needed, and what is normal, is out of whack. The author has apparently made an income that allows for survival, but along the way has become conditioned to only work for profit. When you feel profit is survival, this makes sense. In the United States for example, you are given this message all day, every day. But once you get past survival needs, and want to turn back to things that give life meaning, you can find you are wired to only evaluate the profit potential. What helped me in the past when I was in this trap was volunteering for a 2 week "vacation" helping people much worse than me. I like to travel, so I would volunteer for 2 weeks at someplace like La Joya orphanage in Mexico. The founder needs help teaching and building sustainable homes for children that can't even imagine the good life. Give some of yourself to them, and see how fulfilling it can be. When you get back suddenly just enjoying music, reading poetry, or doing something else for personal satisfaction will seem much more worthwhile.

Nelson69 7y ago
+++ You don't have to travel far to do this. Any medium sized city in the US will have soup kitchens and organizations that try to help the homeless, volunteer some time and energy and you'll get a radical perspective reset. And make no mistake about it, it's hard. Do it until it feels comfortable. It will help you in a lot more ways than you think. You might be able to sustain a transactional relationship with a partner, but you won't have a really great one if one or both of you is continuously keeping score; things just get out of balance and there is nothing that can "fix" it if maintaining that balance is a need. It's sort of obvious too when you're objective about it, there is nothing you can ever do which is equivalent to growing a baby in your wife's body for 9 months, no amount of "girl's nights" or whatever will ever equal that out. I have no idea how you can be a good parent if there is some sort of return you're expecting other than a smile and a hug; it's sort of the ultimate in that you just give and give and then give some more.

quantguy11959 7y ago

It could be worse, imagine the inverse: You can’t do anything to make money; Every hobby is an attempt to have fun.

zubairq 7y ago

When I ran NemCV, a free service for foreigners which helped nearly 20,000 people get employment for free, everyone was confused as they couldn't understand that we did this for free to help others. Even my bank manager and the local tax authority (SKAT) caused me huge problems as they seemed to think I was charging people under the table, as they could not understand the "help others for free" part

jshowa3 7y ago

Ahhh. The glory of capitalism. The reason you ask yourself how much I can make off of X thing is because society tells itself that having X billions of dollars = success.

rorykoehler 7y ago
I just want to have creative freedom. Money is a major problem that needs to be solved in the majority of peoples lives.

pluma 7y ago

If this is a new idea to you, I'd suggest diving into the more left-wing parts of YouTube, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKeqMJGnVyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKeqMJGnVyQ Basically the problem with capitalism is that it assigns financial values to everything. This becomes readily apparent if you become self-employed as a freelancer or entrepreneur, especially if you follow the advice to "do what you know best" (which often means turning a hobby into a job). Are you reading that article because you enjoy it or are you learning to become better at your job? Are you showing off or are you maintaining your personal brand? Is this a holiday trip or are you staking out new business opportunities? Are you mindlessly immersing yourself in art and entertainment or are you looking for inspiration to fuel your job as a creative? Is that chat with an old friend leisure time or are you networking? You've already been watching Game of Thrones for two hours -- you're actively losing money because you could be charging people for that time if you did something work-related instead. Everything becomes a financial tradeoff, everything is assigned a monetary value until all remaining intrinsic motivation is lost. And unless you're lucky enough to be born into massive wealth or lucked out by being in the right place at the right time with the right skills and identity, you have no other choice than to constantly worry about financial values because your life literally depends on it. Even if you consider yourself somewhat safe and financially stable it doesn't take much to throw you right back into this grind.

netrap 7y ago

Quite sad honestly. I understand what the author is feeling. I too have thoughts about how to make money from X hobby I enjoy doing. I'm trying to fight those thoughts. What I am doing with my free time doesn't have to be worth anything!!

jkingsbery 7y ago

I would highly encourage everyone to watch Kent Beck's 2015 RubyConf talk (which has nothing to do with Ruby): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aApmOZwdPqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aApmOZwdPqA In the talk, he discusses a few things, but one thing he discusses in the importance in doing things periodically for which we are beginners. If you are getting paid to do something, you're probably not a beginner. One way to practice not making money is take up a hobby in which you are a beginner. I don't mean like: I'm a programmer by day, and I YouTube about programming by night (that's still about programming). Find something completely unrelated to what you're doing.

bluGill 7y ago
Putting a YouTube video together is something I'm a beginner at. The content might be programming (Something I'm an expert in), but there is a lot about video production that I do not know. Of course after a short time of doing those YouTube videos I'm no longer a beginner and now I need to find something different.
0x445442 7y ago
It must be nice for Kent to just trot off and investigate whether or not his work "matters". For the rest of us, this is a non starter because that effort can't be captured in a story or a task attached to a story on the Jira board. Us mortals might be able to convince our boss that our investigation is worthy of a spike but it'd be bounded to a couple of hours. For us dark matter engineers we need to tell ourselves that, because we're paid, our work "matters".
- john-radio 7y ago
  What is a dark matter engineer?
  - JakeTheAndroid 7y ago
    people who work on things you'll never see.

redmattred 7y ago

It's worth reading up a little on self determination theory and how they think about intrinsic VS extrinsic motivation if you've never heard of it

jefe_ 7y ago

I started embracing and justifying spending time on hobbies when I realized they give me something to talk about with non-IT people, and that is valuable. If your hobbies are IT work, and your work is IT work, there aren't many aspects of your life to which people outside of that domain can relate, in fact it can all seem quite boring and you end up with, "I'm doing well, work is going well." But if you can mention you went hiking somewhere and took a new lens for your camera, there are several things in there to which most people can relate and then maintain an interesting conversation.

dmitryminkovsky 7y ago

Wow didn’t expect to see other people struggling with this line of thought. I’m still capable of having fun, but what’s disturbed me is the question of whether I’ll ever be able to just lay around and relax again like I could when I was a child. On one had we need to be purpose driven, but 100% all the time? Definitely not. And I find it hard to shake that.

robodale 7y ago

I write software, both professionally and as a "side gig". I spend a decent amount of time behind my house doing yard work and general maintenance. I don't really look forward to those (non-IT?) activities, but when I am doing them I have realized how nice it is to be doing something other than staring at a screen and be able to look back at a physical object (new plant, fixed deck railing, etc) and say "I did that". It's an unintentional hobby, but it does serve the purpose of taking a break from the keyboard.

PeanutNore 7y ago

I build guitar amps and effects pedals as a hobby, and trying to monetize it sucked all the joy out of it so badly that I ended up leaving it completely for about 18 months. I've only just gotten back into it and I'm starting over by just building what I want to build for myself and not worrying about whether anyone else would want to buy it. If I end up with a couple extra pedals or PCBs I can put up on my Reverb store, that's fine. If someone buys them, great! But I'm not putting any more energy into trying to sell them.

eightturn 7y ago

I find it sorta funny that the article ends with an ad : )

imtringued 7y ago

Is this some kind of joke? As soon as your workday ends everything becomes leisure. If you think that humans shouldn't do anything without economic value then why don't you just work a 120 hour week? Watching Netflix is just as much of a leisure activity as creating art, restorating vintage machines or making free software.

jarym 7y ago

I sympathise, so much of today’s world caters solely to consumers and there seems a definite lack of things that cater to those who want to produce (in the economic or monetary value sense). I don’t know what the solution is - but for me personally I try to focus on creating things that people will either enjoy using or need. Peak capitalism might be about running out of ways to produce value (in the economic sense)

rchaud 7y ago

The post sums up why so much of the "early Internet" seems to have disappeared, and why the content on so many websites feels like it's designed for lead gen only. >"I should do market research and see what’s trending and build off that. Self-help is big, let’s try to focus on that, even though I personally hate self-help books." This type of keyword and topic research is why the front page of your search results are nearly always some throwaway blog post from some company trying to sell you something. These results just barely resemble what you're looking for, among a sea of similar "close enough" results.

cableshaft 7y ago

For me, I'm not necessarily thinking about monetization, but about finding an audience. I would like for as many people to enjoy my work as possible. But finding an audience basically requires you to have a successful product (unless you're doing it for free), so the mindset it nearly the same, I'm thinking of how I can get as many people as possible to check out my art, which means I might sand off some edges here or there, or think about marketing or whatever, and then I'm not just doing the thing and enjoying it anyway, much like the person who's trying to sell it. I used to just make stuff and throw it out there in the earlier days of the internet, and it somehow found a decent audience. It seems like it's actually harder to do that now, though, as so many more people are doing the same thing, so it's much harder to stick out from the pack. Also, less and less people check personal websites or blogs, and pretty much only look at instagrams and twitters and facebooks, so if you're not spending serious time on putting yourself out there on social media, you're just not going to get that visibility you're wanting. Which kinda sucks, because I'm kinda bad at the social media part, and doing that feels a lot like a job.

flr03 7y ago

I'm surprised so many people in the comments actually recognise themselves here. Is it a cultural thing, is it american ? Most of my European friends, including myself, just use hobbies to relax from work, the point is not to monetize anything.

andbberger 7y ago
Maybe it's just american... things are getting pretty dire over here...
diet_mtn_dew 7y ago
It's probably that people who read HN are more likely to be interested in entrepreneurial pursuits.

EvilGrin 7y ago

I brew mead. There's no way I could make money from it. However I can make enough to get myself and everyone around me blind drunk. Free mead quickly stops a lot of arguments.

cuntfucker 7y ago
What resources did you use to learn? I am planning on making some this summer.
- kevstev 7y ago
  This is the bible: http://howtobrew.com/ http://howtobrew.com/ Its the 1st edition of the most popular book to learn brewing by far. Mead is just a slight offshoot from beer, you just replace some grain with honey. This will teach you the fundamentals, then you can just google "mead recipe" and apply the same techniques.
- EvilGrin 7y ago
  Well, you'll be pleased to know its very easy. My first stab at it was simply following a youtube tutorial on how to make it based on what you can buy at the supermarket (bread yeast, mineral water, honey and some raisins). You mix it all up and leave it to ferment in the water bottle. This turned out rather well. I then bought a basic 'kit' off amazon, and a couple of books. The recommended reading is 'The Compleat Meadmaker' by Ken Schramm and 'The Complete Guide to Making Mead' by Steve Piatz. Start off with simple meads. Then experiment. :) Making friends with the local beekeeping association and LARP group is also recommended. :) There is tons of info on the Internet as you would expect.
  - Kaius 7y ago
    Whats the difference between Mead and the more typical Ale home brewing people do?

kadendogthing 7y ago

Internalized capitalism.

povertyworld 7y ago
I think it predates capitalism. Seems like Calvinist work ethic, but in a secular age.

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kbutler 7y ago

I have a friend who is a skilled woodworker. I asked if she ever thought about selling her work, and she replied, "Then it would be a job." Wise words... On the other hand, my wife was volunteering, and the organization offered to pay her for a day or so a week. It let her be more involved in the functioning of the organization, so the (nominal) pay let her contribute more effectively. They'd like her to move toward full-time, but as with my friend, "Then it would be a job."

gvkv 7y ago

I don't have anything to add to many of the comments already posted but I'm reminded of Cyanide and Happiness very poignantly making a similar point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKQ7ouQqgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKQ7ouQqgA.

dpcan 7y ago

I've been doing this for about 20 years myself. Everything I do, that I enjoy, I think to myself "I love this. I want to do this all the time. So now I have to make a business of it?" It was just in the last 3-4 months that I realized - if I love something, keep doing it in such a way that I can enjoy it, but let WORK be WORK, don't let the things I enjoy become my work. Every "fun" thing I've tried to turn into the business has made me eventually hate that thing. I created video games. Had financial success. But eventually hated the game-dev world. It turned out that creating interesting new games was only a small part of that business. Marketing, bug fixing, customer service, taxes, etc, became my life. Then having my hard work get pirated, stolen, and even re-sold by scammers without my permission ended up ruining that business and I couldn't keep it financially afloat. Same thing happened with my escape room business. The escape room business turned into a customer service, marketing, taxes, insurance, safety, and human resources business. Dealing with employees for part time, kind-of on-call, customer service work was nearly impossible. Finding them, training them, firing them, trying to keep them hired, dealing with their problems, dealing with them calling in sick. It took all my time. I ended up trying to do it all myself and that didn't work at all. Then the costs involved crushed me because I didn't realize how expensive it would be. I also love board games. I tried turning that into a business, but have stopped short as I realize it will become the same damn thing. Anyway, I am just going to play escape rooms, video games, and board games now. I'm going to enjoy them. If I create something, it won't have to be for profit, but for family and friends to try. We'll enjoy a Saturday afternoon, I'll have an outlet for my creativity, then Monday I'll get back to my web dev job and make money. I'm not going to love sitting here coding, but that's my job, and if I focus on this job, I'll make good money - enough money to be able to thoroughly enjoy gaming, and even create some fun personal stuff along the way.

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donretag 7y ago

Call me jaded, but this article is pure click bait. Everything is an attempt to make money for the other, including writing click bait content. (monetized by increased brand exposure)

allenu 7y ago
Perhaps to some extent, but it was certainly less overt than other articles that end with a plug for a product or for the author.

bitL 7y ago

Heh, I am on a completely different orbit - I pay others so that I can do my hobbies, e.g. studying electronic music production (with an M.A. from a US university), paying AirBnB hosts and airlines to travel around the world, making drone/hyperlapse/documentary movies; paying make-up artists, stylists and models to do fashion photography etc.

raintrees 7y ago

What I found missing in my life was the routine part of money management. I now wish I had studied money management first, then found my first "job." I now have a life plan that I oversee that takes extra income (earned, investment, gift, etc.) and saves it up until it reaches another lump sum amount to continue acquiring cash-flowing assets (I settled on real estate, specifically multi-family rentals). As my semi-passive income increases, it supplants the required earned income to keep the whole system going. And for me that means more time researching things "because I'd like to know how they work." Sometimes I research something and test/play around with it, until I suddenly realize (I am not always that quick, so my sudden takes awhile) that some of my solutions are valuable to others - Then I consider how to spin out that specific service or product to others for their benefit, and the financial (or other - I have been paid in fresh eggs, animal products, vegetables, tools, etc.) reward covers the costs and any extra financial reward adds to the aforementioned savings goals. Rinse and repeat. It lets my mind wander onto new topics that I find interesting first, the possible remuneration comes second, if at all. And until I am completely independently wealthy, I keep a service business going that provides the safety net of making sure all my expenses are paid for. This also frees up my time to work with experts (attorneys, CPAs) to figure out how to treat the US tax code (I am a US citizen) like a game - If I do something (I want to do it anyway) in THIS fashion, I get an incentive/break from my government... This has removed the "I have to make a profit!" stress I was feeling previously. And if this works for me, it seems like it would probably work for others...

xhrpost 7y ago

I've noticed a similar trend for myself but a bit broader. It's more that anything I do, I have to somehow see as an achievement or purposeful. I've been considering new hobbies as of late, but my mental model dismisses them quickly if I can't answer "what would this accomplish?" Unless it's a baseline activity requiring no mental energy (think food, drink, tv, socializing) it's hard for me to consider it without the previous question answered. Example, for the longest time I never read any fiction as I couldn't see the point. Reading some HN comments over the years and hearing reasons like "you read fiction in order to tell better stories", led me to see the "value/accomplishment" in reading fiction. So now, I read a little fiction in addition to all my self-development books, not because I enjoy it but because it's supposedly good for me. I then wonder why all my "hobbies" seem to be draining and not rejuvenating.

MattSayar 7y ago
"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted." But if you can't even enjoy wasting that time that sounds rough.
EnFinlay 7y ago
I relate strongly with this. Someone made a comic that partially captures how it feels: http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/do-it-turtle/ http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/do-it-turtle/

asadkn 7y ago

I didn't really believe the post was truthful but then I saw "Adsense" ads at end of the post. On a serious note, there's social pressure in monetizing everything you do - the common assumption is you either have ulterior motives or are a fool

character0 7y ago

Ezra Klein recently interviewed Anne Helen Petersen (Buzzfeed) and Derek Thompson (The Atlantic) about this topic. I think they hit on a lot of the things I've been feeling and some of the struggles I have trying to think through a fix — we need to shift both structural and personal thinking on this topic. https://megaphone.link/VMP7590220227 https://megaphone.link/VMP7590220227 These are the two articles these authors are known for: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/millennials-burnout-generation-debt-work https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/mille... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-w...

frob 7y ago
That was a fantastic podcast and I came here to say the same thing. The thing I found most interesting was when they discussed curating social media as effectively work, making it so some people feel like they need to post that picture of the birthday/garden/pet/hairdo/etc or it didn't happen and the task isn't completed until you post. It really made me think about how work isn't just cutting into our pleasure and relaxation times, but it is turning things that were initially created to be pleasurable into work.

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scotty79 7y ago

I had a mindset that everything I do should bring in money and if it doesn't it's not worth doing. It ended when after years of freelancing and occasionally working at/for small companies I got hired by a corporation. Suddenly I was being paid more than I could hope for, for doing barely anything. I felt so relaxed and I never again considered my hobbies to be potential money makers.

JohnFen 7y ago

If your doing something intending to make money, then it's not a hobby. I learned a long time ago that (for me, anyway) the idea that you should make your recreational activity into something that earns money is a horribly flawed one. All doing that does is to turn your recreational activity into a job. Part of the joys of a hobby are things like not having to engage in it if you don't feel like it, the lack of deadline pressures, etc. All that goes away when you want it to make money for you. This is why I have a number of "side projects", but I clearly delineate between the ones I do for fun -- which I intentionally avoid deriving an income stream from -- and those that are intended to provide supplemental income.

yboris 7y ago

My coding side-project Video Hub App (MIT open source) is for sale for $3.50 but $3.50 of every sale goes to my favorite charity: https://github.com/whyboris/Video-Hub-App https://github.com/whyboris/Video-Hub-App If you look at http://www.globalrichlist.com/ http://www.globalrichlist.com/ you'll discover that earning even $30k/year places you in the richest 1% of world's income earners. I think it's very much worth to give back in cost-effective ways -- at least 10% if you ask me: https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/

msneidne 7y ago

It's such a disgusting attitude that far too many people have. Not everything is about money.

m463 7y ago

I think most everything checked into github refutes this argument.

tripzilch 7y ago

Near the very end of the blogpost: > I should mention that I am a software engineer who makes a decent salary, so it’s not like I absolutely need extra money. If he had started with that I probably wouldn't have read any further. It kind of makes a rather large difference as to what their personal journal post is actually about. In this case, a luxury problem. Listen up, recognize the problem (check), then .. just try to not do it. You'll find out whether it's an obsessive compulsive disorder, or just a lack of perspective. The latter, having recognized the problem (again, check), ... is easier to correct than changing a habit (like fitness, or meditating, etc). Truly. If your mind still keeps running back to money if you don't need it, that's an obsession. If you find you just don't like it, take up a new thing that doesn't make money. Since you're not doing it for the money, it's fine to drop it, too.