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TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

608 points by justinpropub 8y ago

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Definitely experienced this helping a friend who qualified for FFA. I ended up contacting them on Twitter and they gave me a promo code after recognizing the site was misleading. The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks below the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option based on the forms entered.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  > "The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks below the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option based on the forms entered." In the current environment where they appear to have enough political influence to block the IRS from allowing people to file their taxes online, it seems unlikely that any constraints will be imposed on their pursuit of profits.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Realistically, if they can be required to provide free filing to eligible people, a significant benefit to them over the IRS helping directly remains intact: Most people who file their taxes for free will use the same app once they're no longer eligible.
- mruts 8y ago
  Or people could, like, not use TurboTax if they don’t like it. My tax returns are pretty simple (my only income source is my salary) and it’s trivial to just file them myself. People have some mental block about taxes even though that for 90% of people, filing taxes yourself is trivial.
alehul 8y ago
In my experience this year, TurboTax prompted me that I could save money by upgrading to a paid plan via taking advantage of some extra deduction. I thought, "if it's going to save me more than I pay for it, why not?" I clicked through and found that this deduction wouldn't actually save me any money. I then couldn't find a way to get back to the free plan (they only charge you after you file, so this should be possible). After struggling for a while, I called Turbotax support, which had me download screen-sharing software and kept telling me to press some button to cancel the paid plan, and it wouldn't work, telling me that it wasn't possible to switch back. He couldn't figure it out, couldn't switch it off on his end, and eventually told me I would have to create a new Turbotax account and start over. Oh, and for the icing on the cake, he never stopped the screen-sharing session, and saw me input my SSN when I recreated my account. (Yes, I'm aware that I'm a fool for not closing it out myself, but I was really stressed, and it would've been professional to end the screen-sharing after we ended the call.)
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  The paid plan upgrade is based on which forms you input, not necessarily which deduction you get. So hypothetically, even if your best choice is the standard deduction, they expect you to pay if you have some of those other tax forms. I guess my question is, if you know the standard deduction is the right choice, can you just not input the tax forms that you don't need for that?
  - res0nat0r 8y ago
    Everyone should just use freetaxusa.com. I've used it for years, the UI looks almost the same as TurboTax and costs like 12$ total to file both state and federal.
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      Can I point on the inherent irony of recommending a site called "free"taxusa that costs $12 to file?
SilasX 8y ago
I almost got burned by one of those myself. Until I checked the fine print at the end, I didn’t realize there was a separate $40 charge for paying for TurboTax out of your refund (rather than with a credit card). That can’t cost anything on their end and seems designed to target people who don’t have the money lying around.
- mruts 8y ago
  I mean, that sounds like a pretty fair service to me: offering short-term credit while also streamlining the customer acquisition process.
  - sputknick 8y ago
    A few years ago my finance class had a homework assignment which was to calculate the interest rate you were paying for this "service". It was a good assignment, because there is no "right" answer, because it depends how you define certain values, but all the figures came back with this "service" is like a loan with a 40-80% interest rate.
    - SilasX 8y ago
      A 40-80% rate per week! If it's just regular filing, that's something like $70, and the IRS pays the refund in about a week. TurboTax claims they vouche for the validity of the filing, so there's little risk of it not coming through, and even if it does, they can just say, "oops, we can't file for you until you do XYZ" and boom, they didn't finish providing the service. So, that's a $40 loan on $70 of principle, or 57% for that week. Annualized -- to make it commensurate with other interest rates -- that's (1.57)^52 = a f---ing lot.
      - mruts 8y ago
        It's a little better than that: 1.57^52 - 1. R_n = (1 + R_0)(1 + R_1)...(1 + R_n) - 1 It's easier to just use log return: r_n = r_0 + r_1 ... r_n where r = log (1 + R) Anyhow, compounded returns aren't the best way to think about this. It's not like they could extend the period and realize the compounded returns.
rchowe 8y ago
I used the Free Fillable Forms to file my taxes this year. However, it seems that the backend for the free fillable forms is provided by Intuit. It seems you really can't escape them unless you file on paper and mail in the forms.
1024core 8y ago
The real dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing IRS from implementing free filing.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  While Intuit definitely feeds Congress some money in support of their corporate goals, the lack of free tax filing is probably more Grover Norquist's fault. He strongly opposes anything that would make paying taxes easier, and he has a lot more influence than Intuit.
  - username223 8y ago
    Norquist is just twisted, sabotaging the government to convince people that it doesn't work. It would cost the IRS almost nothing to send out pre-filled forms, and giving them enough money to audit the wealthy (i.e. ensure they aren't cheating) would more than pay for itself.
    - michelpp 8y ago
      Agreed. In fact the IRS would likely save money, because of all the followup enforcement actions they could avoid.
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      While I think the IRS should do this, it would require a lot of additional work and resources, as well as a reshuffling of filing deadlines throughout the system. The IRS currently does not have all the information it needs to prefill forms, and inly has the resources to review a fraction of the 140M+ returns filed each year. I don't know why so many people in this site seem to think this is a trivial thing for the IRS. 100% review after the fact isn't even feasible right now, let alone having the information in January.
      - Noughmad 8y ago
        So, another thing that the richest country in the world can't afford, despite the fact that just about every other country can do it.
untog 8y ago
They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is free, state is $15: https://www.freetaxusa.com/ https://www.freetaxusa.com/ Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund. The last straw with TurboTax was when I needed to get some details from a previous year's tax return and found out that they would not let me access a return I'd paid to file with them unless I upgraded my plan. Absolute scum. I took the opportunity to also close my Mint account (same parent company as TurboTax) which I barely use and has been sending all kinds of transaction data for them to profit from.
- tylerrobinson 8y ago
  I'm no TurboTax apologist, but really? I think you always have access to the PDF versions of past years' tax returns upon signing in to your account.
  - untog 8y ago
    Just tried it again: > It looks like you need to pay first to instantly access your TurboTax returns > For instructions on how to access your returns, click help in the upper right hand corner of your screen and type “Prior Year Return” into the search box and when I do that: > To access your prior year return before you file, you have to: > Be in an upgraded version of TurboTax (or add PLUS to TurboTax Free Edition). The fact that it makes you search their help system for the answer to your question is just the icing on the cake...
    - tylerrobinson 8y ago
      Interesting. Now that I think about it, maybe I've only attempted to do this after paying for the current year's software. I also pay for the self-employed version, which might play a part. My original thinking was coming from going through the mortgage application process last year, and I was able to retrieve my previous PDFs mid-year without a problem.
athenot 8y ago
TaxAct has one dark pattern where they slide in a question in the middle where they basically ask your consent for marketing stuff to you. It's confusingly worded in a way to make it sound like you'll unlock additional savings. But the good part is you can decline that, and the rest of the time they stick to the task at hand. Now they do have separate pricing tiers based on your needs but I don't find that dishonest. In fact they have a quick selector to help you identify which tier you need to get based on your situation.
- swsieber 8y ago
  They are required by law to let you know that you can opt out.
- sgc 8y ago
  The entire dark pattern is creating a fucking painful and confusing q+a that is incredibly difficult to go back and edit, instead of just showing me a form to fill out, with hover over info bubbles that show me the actual IRS explanations of each field. But that would show the only reason why we are using them is to e file, because their system is much more difficult than the IRS', and they have been able to keep anything but the most rudimentary e filing off the IRS site.
- thatoneuser 8y ago
  Next time you use them it will be worse. That's how these things seem to operate.
breademoji 8y ago
Wrote this up last year describing some of these tactics employed by Intuit: https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-design-1a37356adc61 https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-design-1a37356adc61
- athenot 8y ago
  Very nice writeup! This kind of condescending flow is exactly why I stopped using TurboTax about 10 years ago. Apparently it got even worse since then.
b_tterc_p 8y ago
I used turbo tax and had to file multiple state returns. They showed a few blatant pages saying I could maybe get higher deductions with an upgraded version, although I suppose I knew enough to know that wouldn’t be the case. It wasn’t hard to file everything on the free tier. They won’t let me get a copy of the return without paying anymore which is dickish, but they did say that would happen pretty clearly so it’s just a matter of downloading a copy while it’s available. You can upload that pdf copy next year so that’s fairly convenient. The dark patterns are bad... but I really have no reason to look elsewhere? Well except passing bank login credentials. That was uncomfortable, but hey, just change them immediately after as it’s a one time service.
- untog 8y ago
  > I really have no reason to look elsewhere? TurboTax actively lobbies the government to make filing taxes difficult. So one reason to look elsewhere is simply to avoid giving money to a company that behaves that way.
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    If you reread my post, I haven’t given them any money. Their free tier is fine.
argd678 8y ago
I signed up for Inuit’s Self Employed Quicken that comes with TurboTax just to handle quarterly estimates, and it turns out they don’t support states. They told me there’s so many of them. Not that I appreciate government websites, since the quality is pretty shoddy, but when a company has no incentive to handle any smaller markets how is this a good system?
holtalanm 8y ago
I have never used TurboTax, but I have used H&R Block online filing every year of my adult life, and haven't had any issues. One year I was curious about my refund (thought I was paying more than I should) and brought my return in to an actual brick & mortar H & R Block office, and they told me that my return just about perfect, but they urged me to increase my monthly withholdings to avoid paying taxes at tax season, which turned out to be good advice for the next year (would have had to pay much, much more than the previous year, my withholdings were WAY too low).
- nathanaldensr 8y ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted. I used to use TurboTax until about a decade ago when I switched to H&R Block. In my opinion H&R Block's UX is superior to TurboTax's and I didn't run into nearly as many dark patterns as I used to. Granted, TurboTax's website could've (and apparently did) change a lot in the time being. It's always best to try and get a $0 refund with $0 owed. Big refunds may seem cool but you are really just making an interest-free loan to the government.
- torstenvl 8y ago
  H&R Block seems very poor quality. It isn't capable of keeping track of state non-taxable income that's taxable at the federal level, and consistently tells me I owe my state thousands more than I really do.
asimpletune 8y ago
Credit Karma does a good job providing free federal and state tax filing. Disclaimer: I work there but not on tax
- jakelazaroff 8y ago
  I don't work at Credit Karma so I can second this, disclaimer-free!
- SilasX 8y ago
  Not for me, since moving to a different state within the year is apparently too complicated for them. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, though.
- sinatra 8y ago
  If you work there, maybe you can pass this along to the right people: I tried creating an account for filing taxes, CK told me my SSN needed to be unfrozen (that shouldn't matter for tax filing purposes), I temporarily unfroze my SSN and kept retrying to create my account on CK. For the next two days, it kept telling me my SSN was frozen. Then, I gave up!
  - asimpletune 8y ago
    I’ll definitely pass that along. Thanks for taking the time to share.
- throwaway44562 8y ago
  If there was a way to sign up with a VoIP number I would definitely try it.
aeturnum 8y ago
I encountered this with H&R block when I had a particularly complex tax situation a few years back (had worked as a contractor for several corporate entities and also had the tail end of full time work plus investment income). H&R block quoted me 3-4 rates, insisting I pay them more money at each step to finish the process. I realize it's hard because the number of complications that can come up in filing taxes is difficult to enumerate and customers may not know their exact status.... Even so, I'd say the current setup that these companies use is very scammy and unethical.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  If your taxes are complex enough to warrant having a tax preparer handle them for you, I recommend avoiding H&R Block. Instead, ask your colleagues, friends, and family for recommendations for an independent tax preparer rather than a chain.
  - User23 8y ago
    Just so you know, that independent tax accountant probably uses the pro version of TurboTax.
    - JohnFen 8y ago
      Not all. Mine certainly doesn't.
  - aeturnum 8y ago
    Yes, after that experience I've found a single proprietorship that I'm quite happy with.
Geeek 8y ago
That's why I don't feel bad pirating their software for the past 5 years. They are scum and are not playing fair.
itchyjunk 8y ago
I know very little about filing tax and I was helping someone equally clueless this year. The 10+ prompts and tricks to try and get us to upgrade was fine, but we suddenly ended up in a page that was asking permission to request free credit score. I wanted no part of it and the person with me was frustrated enough and wanted to just accept it. Clearing browser and re-logging was the only way to get out of that screen and it put us in the initial page. No idea what that was about but I figured that is the `price to pay` for dealing with free software.
iamwpj 8y ago
Hey, just an FYI. You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it. It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you ever pay someone to do your taxes. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions It's good to have free software and keep forms fillable, but we as a society NEED to know how to perform taxes and that the process DOES NOT COST MONEY. You most likely can do it yourself. The reason we're in the mess now is because people have been so willing to believe that taxes are too hard and impossible for the individual. Who's telling you that you shouldn't do taxes on your own? Look at their motivations.
- JTbane 8y ago
  It's a tradeoff between money/convenience, or money/time. Of course no one NEEDS to pay the $49 for TurboTax. They do it because it is easy. The reason Intuit has been able to make so much money is that no one wants to waste hours poring over verbose IRS instruction publications, which are not trivial for a layperson to fill out correctly.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    I quit doing my own by hand because one year I forgot to copy line 13b of form 123a: to line 26d of form 987d... The software does this automatically for me. I generally think software is slower than doing everything by hand ( I use TaxAct, I don't know how turbotax is different) because of all the stupid waits while it asks questions that don't apply (retirement income...).
    - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      New Jersey used to have a PDF form with JavaScript that would copy around all the duplicate values automatically. The only annoying thing about it was that it only worked in Adobe Reader. This year they went to a poorly designed plain PDF form that only let you fill in individual digits for each line item, with tabs needed to shift each place value.
maerF0x0 8y ago
I know there's slight irony in using google for this. But if you want to add an annual reminder to use freetaxusa.com https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWExcjdycjQ1Ymk2djQ3NjA3dGozaTlpYWtfMjAyMDAzMTUgbWlrZWdyYWYwMDBAbQ&tmsrc=mikegraf000%40gmail.com&scp=ALL https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWEx...
OrgNet 8y ago
H&R Block try to get you to pay at every other page while you are filling your return... But I still went with them because the last 2 years I filled the forms online at a couple different companies and H&R Block was getting me more back.
- wycy 8y ago
  Your taxes should come out the same no matter where you fill them out. If you get different numbers between services, you're missing something on one of them.
  - OrgNet 8y ago
    I know that but I have very simple taxes and was too lazy to lookup the difference... it just appears that H&R Block's defaults are better.
- linuxasheviller 8y ago
  Taxes: Where we openly brag about finding ways to contribute less to society.
  - OrgNet 8y ago
    Taxes: where the government keeps finding new ways to make you overpay....
JohnFen 8y ago
TurboTax has a pretty troubling history of working against the best interest of taxpayers, from stuff like these dark patterns to their constant lobbying to ensure that the IRS won't offer any taxpayer services that would be of wide benefit to people.
0x54D5 8y ago
I pirate it every year because fuck Intuit. I also got rid of my Mint account. I always print and mail in my state taxes. I always save both in the proprietary format and to PDF and sync to my Dropbox. This way any irreversible problems are versioned and possible to reverse. I will NEVER EVER use their website. I'd rather schlep to an accountant and have an actual person to talk to. For those asking... how does that work? Well the normal CD version of Turbotax just assumes as long as it's installed and on your computer that it was obtained legally so there's no need for a crack or anything like that. You simply can't E-File the state taxes without paying a fee. Easy to avoid by simply printing it out, signing, and sticking a stamp on an envelope. I've been doing this for 8 years and I've never paid a dime to Intuit. And I never will. Any Congress critter that actually makes it easier to vote using only federal software and which takes care of complex situations like stocks and other capital gains will have my vote for life.
4restm 8y ago
I used Credit karma it was pretty painless for a 1040. e-filed both state and federal and didn't cost a dime. Albeit I bet they hope to get revenue from credit card recommendations.
- dlandis 8y ago
  They don't support all states unfortunately.
turc1656 8y ago
I agree with the base assessment the article poses which is that dark patterns are used to get you to pay. But the underlying implication is clear from the tone and wording in the article - that this is a bad or dishonest thing. First off, Intuit is under no legal obligation (to my knowledge anyway) to provide any service for free. They have promised to do so, but I don't think anything related to this promise is legally binding. Second, they're in it to make money so clearly all advertising is going to be geared to the paid products. Lastly, the idea that typing a reasonable search into Google and having the page with the actual result be the 5th link which you then click into and have to read the requirement of getting something for free is somehow shady seems a bit dramatic. Not to mention that when I type that same search string into Google now it's the first link after the featured snippet (which is also a link to the IRS, but a different page). I don't think that's in any way unreasonable or undesirable. That's about as close to idiot-proof as you can get in my opinion. And we're talking about something that's free here so there's pretty much no incentive to assist it. And in this case, as per the article, there's active incentive to hide it and yet it's still really easy to find.
- CreRecombinase 8y ago
  I could see the logic of the argument "these aren't dark patterns", or (to a lesser extent) "these are dark patterns(and therefore dishonest), but dishonesty isn't bad". I'm having trouble working through your argument "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest". Might a fair restatement of your argument be something like: "Reasonably informed people should know that Intuit is a profit-seeking entity, and should therefore expect Intuit to pursue all legal means to increase profit"?
  - turc1656 8y ago
    That restatement is pretty accurate and I would agree with it. And I wasn't saying dishonesty isn't bad. I was saying the implication the article makes that they are dishonest is something I disagree with. So "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest" is indeed what I'm saying - you are correct in that. I generally don't view dark patterns as dishonest. I think that's where you really took issue. I find them more of an annoyance to keep an eye out for and circumvent. And I believe nearly all dark patterns can be spotted and avoided simply by paying attention - i.e. which button is actually confirm and which one is cancel, doing a ctrl-f to find the word "unsubscribe" so you can easily find it, actually reading the words on buttons/links rather than using color as a content guide, etc. EDIT - grammatical error.
dugluak 8y ago
Yep, I fell for the 'audit threat' and paid $19. Even if I was pretty confident that I wont get audited or even if I did there won't be any problem as my tax return is as simple as it gets and I have nothing to hide.
dangus 8y ago
I want to take this opportunity to mention that the IRS Free Fillable Forms service is completely free for anyone. It might not be the best choice for everyone, but I found that despite all these tax services' low cognitive load, they ask so many questions with so many steps that the actual time that it takes to file with TurboTax wasn't actually any faster than just biting the bullet and reading some instructions. Again, I think it's not a great choice for many people but it's the one I'll be using moving forward.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  I've looked at that section on the IRS site every other year for twenty, still can't make heads or tails of it. I end up opening another tab and downloading 1040.
  - dangus 8y ago
    It's not much different than logging into any other tax website provider, except that it's less slick and nice, and you have to actually fill out the forms rather than answering questions. This is the actual direct link to the site in case you actually haven't been able to find what you're supposed to use: https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/ https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      That seems reasonable. However, it looks like a third-party rather than the IRS, which doesn't inspire confidence.
liface 8y ago
I've used https://www.freetax.com https://www.freetax.com for the past three years and paid nothing. I have a complicated return as well - 1099 income, rental property, capital gains, and I receive distributions from being part-owner of a company.
joshuaheard 8y ago
You can still file free if you make over $66,000 per year, it's just a more limited edition. I have used it for years with no problems. If you are comfortable with filling out the forms yourself and reading the accompanying IRS form instructions, you should be fine. It's federal only. https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd Protip: some of the forms do the math for you, but some don't. Also, there are no worksheets available. So, I use a spreadsheet to do the math and calculate the worksheets.
justaaron 8y ago
news flash: the entire tax filing and tax payment industry, to say nothing of tax code itself, uses dark patterns to this effect.
ashelmire 8y ago
It is way easier and faster to file your taxes using paper forms. And free! Maybe your hand isn't held as much, but for a group of people that know how to use ctrl-f, it should be pretty easy to get it done. Now, this is certainly unfortunate. I'd prefer to submit my taxes electronically via simple forms on the IRS website instantly. But with the lobbying, this is what we're stuck with.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
My tax situation was simple enough but I’ve always used a service. This year I used a few services but didn’t file, them printed out the infilled returns and was shocked at how few documents I would have to fill out if I did it on my own. I ended up using Tax slayer and filed for free.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
Let’s not forget this is the same company that robbed tech workers in secret do not hire pacts that included eBay, intel, apple and google.
eyeareque 8y ago
Regular reminder that intuit and H&R Block lobby to keep the government from simplifying tax filings to protect their business.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
When I was young my mom would go into H&R Block to do her taxes. She was a single parent raising 2 kids on minimum wage income. She wasn’t tax savvy at all and English was a 2nd language. I recall her paying $89 at the time. I always found it odd that someone as poor as her had to pay money to file taxes. I was too young to say anything at the time. So much for free tax preparation. I wonder how many millions of Americans and for how many decades have been ripped off by these scumbags.
ourmandave 8y ago
Lobbying congress to pass laws so the IRS can't offer free filing is a very dark pattern indeed.
behringer 8y ago
I switched to hr block when I saw what turbotax wanted to charge. I saved 70 bucks by switching and I got to verify my taxes were figured properly!
wyattjoh 8y ago
For us Canadians out there too, SimpleTax[0] is complexity free as well! Super simple design, easy to file. We've used it for a while. [0]: https://simpletax.ca/ https://simpletax.ca/
- gschier 8y ago
  SimpleTax is awesome!
doktrin 8y ago
The state to which the US tax system is an absolute hellscape becomes crystal clear when/if you move abroad. I currently live in one of those small european countries touted (often accurately, sometimes not) as a utopia, and sure enough filing taxes is basically 99% automated. The more complex your income the more work is involved - of course - but for the vast majority of users who own 1 piece of property and derive most of their income from an employer, it's basically ready out of the box. The hardest part for me - by far - of filing income tax is and remains filing my US taxes, which unsurprisingly becomes extra complicated and burdensome as an overseas citizen. We can only dream of the day when the bizarro hydra that forms the anti-tax-reform lobby is somehow defeated, but that realistically feels like a not-in-my-lifetime kind of deal.
failrate 8y ago
Regardless of whether Intuit is willfully or accidentally using dark patterns to get paying customers, their incentives completely explain how they ended up with such a complete garbage endpoint. Of course, that is being very generous, because they are also directly influencing the policy makers that establish the incentive structures for Intuit.
- thatoneuser 8y ago
  You think they accidentally tripped and fell into their website design?
  - failrate 8y ago
    No, it is likely intentionally bad. Angel's advocate.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gmoore 8y ago
One of the many examples of why we need GOOD government...
spartas 8y ago
Most of what you’re paying for as a TurboTax customer is not the benefit of the software. You’re paying for the company to lobby the government to make filing your taxes more expensive. Intuit has the perfect scam.
punnerud 8y ago
Can also recommend this paper for more information on how ‘Dark patterns’ work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186
low_key 8y ago
It's bad even when it stays free. Massachusetts has a tax site (which seems to be created and run by Intuit) which you can use to file for free. It, however, has been built purposefully to make it much, much more difficult to use than the paid version (that they push hard when you file your federal taxes with TurboTax). The free version does very little error checking prior to submission. It won't even check for things like empty fields that are required for everyone (e.g. the field for your birthday on the state health care form). The state paid for the free version with tax money and it lacks fundamental usability. * Doesn't perform basic validation * Doesn't calculate fields that can be automatically calculated (though there is a button you can press which will fill some of them) * Takes 24-48 hours for "processing" after submission before you are notified of acceptance. In actuality, this tended to be 4-15 hours, but still... it's just doing basic validation. I got rejections for empty fields and miscalculated fields (ones that I shouldn't even have to enter at all.) * Reports errors in a obscure manner, which makes it a chore to determine what is wrong (violates "Business Rule F1-1025", etc.) * Amounts to an electronic version of the paper form, where it only really does exactly what you put on it... add incorrectly: won't be detected, skip a line: no problem * I could go on, but you get the idea If you use the paid product that is available from the same company (Intuit), it will handle all of the above automatically. So really we have is a company that has made a crippled version of software they are already selling. They double-dip with a lot of people this way and they don't compromise sales on the paid product. If you wait until the last day to file using the free site, you are unlikely to get it accepted in time since you won't have a second chance for submission. The product built for the state could just be a really poorly written and managed contract, but knowing the way Intuit behaves generally, I doubt that is all that's going on.
yubiox 8y ago
I guess I will switch to freetaxusa next year. I've used turbotax for 25 years (I worked for Chipsoft, the previous owner before Intuit, in 1994). I found receipts going back to 2007: $99.98 $96.98 $61.98 $71.98 $86.98 $86.98 $66.98 $66.90 $66.90 $39.95 $19.95 $84.90 * They must have tricked me into clicking something for a bogus $50 deduction maximizer. $44.95
United857 8y ago
Another example: when you're done filing, TurboTax offers you the option to pay your taxes via credit card -- e.g. if you want points/miles -- for a fee of 2.49% (or more, haven't checked recently) The verbiage seems like it's the only way to pay via credit card if you filed via TurboTax. However it's not true. You can file via TurboTax without paying. Then directly go to the 3-4 IRS authorized payment providers who will let you pay via card for less.
nameisu 8y ago
used it only because i had crypto losses to claim
bscphil 8y ago
The real dirty secret of tax software is that even after all they've done to try to make filing your taxes as difficult as possible, I still find just using the IRS's "FreeFileFillableForms" software to fill out and submit my own 1040 far easier than any software I've ever used. In particular, every piece of tax software I've used has had trouble with figuring out what I owe on scholarships and stipends, and letting me enter it in the software. After four hours fighting H&R Block's "free" software one time, I swore I would never do it again and just do my own taxes now. Far easier, and faster. Plus since I'm a California resident filing state taxes is as easy as reading numbers off the 1040 to put into the FTB website.

608 points by justinpropub 8y ago

Definitely experienced this helping a friend who qualified for FFA. I ended up contacting them on Twitter and they gave me a promo code after recognizing the site was misleading. The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks below the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option based on the forms entered.

braythwayt 8y ago
> "The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks below the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option based on the forms entered." In the current environment where they appear to have enough political influence to block the IRS from allowing people to file their taxes online, it seems unlikely that any constraints will be imposed on their pursuit of profits.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Realistically, if they can be required to provide free filing to eligible people, a significant benefit to them over the IRS helping directly remains intact: Most people who file their taxes for free will use the same app once they're no longer eligible.
mruts 8y ago
Or people could, like, not use TurboTax if they don’t like it. My tax returns are pretty simple (my only income source is my salary) and it’s trivial to just file them myself. People have some mental block about taxes even though that for 90% of people, filing taxes yourself is trivial.

alehul 8y ago

In my experience this year, TurboTax prompted me that I could save money by upgrading to a paid plan via taking advantage of some extra deduction. I thought, "if it's going to save me more than I pay for it, why not?" I clicked through and found that this deduction wouldn't actually save me any money. I then couldn't find a way to get back to the free plan (they only charge you after you file, so this should be possible). After struggling for a while, I called Turbotax support, which had me download screen-sharing software and kept telling me to press some button to cancel the paid plan, and it wouldn't work, telling me that it wasn't possible to switch back. He couldn't figure it out, couldn't switch it off on his end, and eventually told me I would have to create a new Turbotax account and start over. Oh, and for the icing on the cake, he never stopped the screen-sharing session, and saw me input my SSN when I recreated my account. (Yes, I'm aware that I'm a fool for not closing it out myself, but I was really stressed, and it would've been professional to end the screen-sharing after we ended the call.)

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
The paid plan upgrade is based on which forms you input, not necessarily which deduction you get. So hypothetically, even if your best choice is the standard deduction, they expect you to pay if you have some of those other tax forms. I guess my question is, if you know the standard deduction is the right choice, can you just not input the tax forms that you don't need for that?
- res0nat0r 8y ago
  Everyone should just use freetaxusa.com. I've used it for years, the UI looks almost the same as TurboTax and costs like 12$ total to file both state and federal.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Can I point on the inherent irony of recommending a site called "free"taxusa that costs $12 to file?

SilasX 8y ago

I almost got burned by one of those myself. Until I checked the fine print at the end, I didn’t realize there was a separate $40 charge for paying for TurboTax out of your refund (rather than with a credit card). That can’t cost anything on their end and seems designed to target people who don’t have the money lying around.

mruts 8y ago
I mean, that sounds like a pretty fair service to me: offering short-term credit while also streamlining the customer acquisition process.
- sputknick 8y ago
  A few years ago my finance class had a homework assignment which was to calculate the interest rate you were paying for this "service". It was a good assignment, because there is no "right" answer, because it depends how you define certain values, but all the figures came back with this "service" is like a loan with a 40-80% interest rate.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    A 40-80% rate per week! If it's just regular filing, that's something like $70, and the IRS pays the refund in about a week. TurboTax claims they vouche for the validity of the filing, so there's little risk of it not coming through, and even if it does, they can just say, "oops, we can't file for you until you do XYZ" and boom, they didn't finish providing the service. So, that's a $40 loan on $70 of principle, or 57% for that week. Annualized -- to make it commensurate with other interest rates -- that's (1.57)^52 = a f---ing lot.
    - mruts 8y ago
      It's a little better than that: 1.57^52 - 1. R_n = (1 + R_0)(1 + R_1)...(1 + R_n) - 1 It's easier to just use log return: r_n = r_0 + r_1 ... r_n where r = log (1 + R) Anyhow, compounded returns aren't the best way to think about this. It's not like they could extend the period and realize the compounded returns.

rchowe 8y ago

I used the Free Fillable Forms to file my taxes this year. However, it seems that the backend for the free fillable forms is provided by Intuit. It seems you really can't escape them unless you file on paper and mail in the forms.

1024core 8y ago

The real dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing IRS from implementing free filing.

rootusrootus 8y ago
While Intuit definitely feeds Congress some money in support of their corporate goals, the lack of free tax filing is probably more Grover Norquist's fault. He strongly opposes anything that would make paying taxes easier, and he has a lot more influence than Intuit.
- username223 8y ago
  Norquist is just twisted, sabotaging the government to convince people that it doesn't work. It would cost the IRS almost nothing to send out pre-filled forms, and giving them enough money to audit the wealthy (i.e. ensure they aren't cheating) would more than pay for itself.
  - michelpp 8y ago
    Agreed. In fact the IRS would likely save money, because of all the followup enforcement actions they could avoid.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    While I think the IRS should do this, it would require a lot of additional work and resources, as well as a reshuffling of filing deadlines throughout the system. The IRS currently does not have all the information it needs to prefill forms, and inly has the resources to review a fraction of the 140M+ returns filed each year. I don't know why so many people in this site seem to think this is a trivial thing for the IRS. 100% review after the fact isn't even feasible right now, let alone having the information in January.
    - Noughmad 8y ago
      So, another thing that the richest country in the world can't afford, despite the fact that just about every other country can do it.

untog 8y ago

They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is free, state is $15: https://www.freetaxusa.com/ https://www.freetaxusa.com/ Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund. The last straw with TurboTax was when I needed to get some details from a previous year's tax return and found out that they would not let me access a return I'd paid to file with them unless I upgraded my plan. Absolute scum. I took the opportunity to also close my Mint account (same parent company as TurboTax) which I barely use and has been sending all kinds of transaction data for them to profit from.

tylerrobinson 8y ago
I'm no TurboTax apologist, but really? I think you always have access to the PDF versions of past years' tax returns upon signing in to your account.
- untog 8y ago
  Just tried it again: > It looks like you need to pay first to instantly access your TurboTax returns > For instructions on how to access your returns, click help in the upper right hand corner of your screen and type “Prior Year Return” into the search box and when I do that: > To access your prior year return before you file, you have to: > Be in an upgraded version of TurboTax (or add PLUS to TurboTax Free Edition). The fact that it makes you search their help system for the answer to your question is just the icing on the cake...
  - tylerrobinson 8y ago
    Interesting. Now that I think about it, maybe I've only attempted to do this after paying for the current year's software. I also pay for the self-employed version, which might play a part. My original thinking was coming from going through the mortgage application process last year, and I was able to retrieve my previous PDFs mid-year without a problem.

athenot 8y ago

TaxAct has one dark pattern where they slide in a question in the middle where they basically ask your consent for marketing stuff to you. It's confusingly worded in a way to make it sound like you'll unlock additional savings. But the good part is you can decline that, and the rest of the time they stick to the task at hand. Now they do have separate pricing tiers based on your needs but I don't find that dishonest. In fact they have a quick selector to help you identify which tier you need to get based on your situation.

swsieber 8y ago
They are required by law to let you know that you can opt out.
sgc 8y ago
The entire dark pattern is creating a fucking painful and confusing q+a that is incredibly difficult to go back and edit, instead of just showing me a form to fill out, with hover over info bubbles that show me the actual IRS explanations of each field. But that would show the only reason why we are using them is to e file, because their system is much more difficult than the IRS', and they have been able to keep anything but the most rudimentary e filing off the IRS site.
thatoneuser 8y ago
Next time you use them it will be worse. That's how these things seem to operate.

breademoji 8y ago

Wrote this up last year describing some of these tactics employed by Intuit: https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-design-1a37356adc61 https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-design-1a37356adc61

athenot 8y ago
Very nice writeup! This kind of condescending flow is exactly why I stopped using TurboTax about 10 years ago. Apparently it got even worse since then.

b_tterc_p 8y ago

I used turbo tax and had to file multiple state returns. They showed a few blatant pages saying I could maybe get higher deductions with an upgraded version, although I suppose I knew enough to know that wouldn’t be the case. It wasn’t hard to file everything on the free tier. They won’t let me get a copy of the return without paying anymore which is dickish, but they did say that would happen pretty clearly so it’s just a matter of downloading a copy while it’s available. You can upload that pdf copy next year so that’s fairly convenient. The dark patterns are bad... but I really have no reason to look elsewhere? Well except passing bank login credentials. That was uncomfortable, but hey, just change them immediately after as it’s a one time service.

untog 8y ago
> I really have no reason to look elsewhere? TurboTax actively lobbies the government to make filing taxes difficult. So one reason to look elsewhere is simply to avoid giving money to a company that behaves that way.
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  If you reread my post, I haven’t given them any money. Their free tier is fine.

argd678 8y ago

I signed up for Inuit’s Self Employed Quicken that comes with TurboTax just to handle quarterly estimates, and it turns out they don’t support states. They told me there’s so many of them. Not that I appreciate government websites, since the quality is pretty shoddy, but when a company has no incentive to handle any smaller markets how is this a good system?

holtalanm 8y ago

I have never used TurboTax, but I have used H&R Block online filing every year of my adult life, and haven't had any issues. One year I was curious about my refund (thought I was paying more than I should) and brought my return in to an actual brick & mortar H & R Block office, and they told me that my return just about perfect, but they urged me to increase my monthly withholdings to avoid paying taxes at tax season, which turned out to be good advice for the next year (would have had to pay much, much more than the previous year, my withholdings were WAY too low).

nathanaldensr 8y ago
Not sure why you were downvoted. I used to use TurboTax until about a decade ago when I switched to H&R Block. In my opinion H&R Block's UX is superior to TurboTax's and I didn't run into nearly as many dark patterns as I used to. Granted, TurboTax's website could've (and apparently did) change a lot in the time being. It's always best to try and get a $0 refund with $0 owed. Big refunds may seem cool but you are really just making an interest-free loan to the government.
torstenvl 8y ago
H&R Block seems very poor quality. It isn't capable of keeping track of state non-taxable income that's taxable at the federal level, and consistently tells me I owe my state thousands more than I really do.

asimpletune 8y ago

Credit Karma does a good job providing free federal and state tax filing. Disclaimer: I work there but not on tax

jakelazaroff 8y ago
I don't work at Credit Karma so I can second this, disclaimer-free!
SilasX 8y ago
Not for me, since moving to a different state within the year is apparently too complicated for them. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, though.
sinatra 8y ago
If you work there, maybe you can pass this along to the right people: I tried creating an account for filing taxes, CK told me my SSN needed to be unfrozen (that shouldn't matter for tax filing purposes), I temporarily unfroze my SSN and kept retrying to create my account on CK. For the next two days, it kept telling me my SSN was frozen. Then, I gave up!
- asimpletune 8y ago
  I’ll definitely pass that along. Thanks for taking the time to share.
throwaway44562 8y ago
If there was a way to sign up with a VoIP number I would definitely try it.

aeturnum 8y ago

I encountered this with H&R block when I had a particularly complex tax situation a few years back (had worked as a contractor for several corporate entities and also had the tail end of full time work plus investment income). H&R block quoted me 3-4 rates, insisting I pay them more money at each step to finish the process. I realize it's hard because the number of complications that can come up in filing taxes is difficult to enumerate and customers may not know their exact status.... Even so, I'd say the current setup that these companies use is very scammy and unethical.

JohnFen 8y ago
If your taxes are complex enough to warrant having a tax preparer handle them for you, I recommend avoiding H&R Block. Instead, ask your colleagues, friends, and family for recommendations for an independent tax preparer rather than a chain.
- User23 8y ago
  Just so you know, that independent tax accountant probably uses the pro version of TurboTax.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    Not all. Mine certainly doesn't.
- aeturnum 8y ago
  Yes, after that experience I've found a single proprietorship that I'm quite happy with.

Geeek 8y ago

That's why I don't feel bad pirating their software for the past 5 years. They are scum and are not playing fair.

itchyjunk 8y ago

I know very little about filing tax and I was helping someone equally clueless this year. The 10+ prompts and tricks to try and get us to upgrade was fine, but we suddenly ended up in a page that was asking permission to request free credit score. I wanted no part of it and the person with me was frustrated enough and wanted to just accept it. Clearing browser and re-logging was the only way to get out of that screen and it put us in the initial page. No idea what that was about but I figured that is the `price to pay` for dealing with free software.

iamwpj 8y ago

Hey, just an FYI. You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it. It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you ever pay someone to do your taxes. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions It's good to have free software and keep forms fillable, but we as a society NEED to know how to perform taxes and that the process DOES NOT COST MONEY. You most likely can do it yourself. The reason we're in the mess now is because people have been so willing to believe that taxes are too hard and impossible for the individual. Who's telling you that you shouldn't do taxes on your own? Look at their motivations.

JTbane 8y ago
It's a tradeoff between money/convenience, or money/time. Of course no one NEEDS to pay the $49 for TurboTax. They do it because it is easy. The reason Intuit has been able to make so much money is that no one wants to waste hours poring over verbose IRS instruction publications, which are not trivial for a layperson to fill out correctly.
- bluGill 8y ago
  I quit doing my own by hand because one year I forgot to copy line 13b of form 123a: to line 26d of form 987d... The software does this automatically for me. I generally think software is slower than doing everything by hand ( I use TaxAct, I don't know how turbotax is different) because of all the stupid waits while it asks questions that don't apply (retirement income...).
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    New Jersey used to have a PDF form with JavaScript that would copy around all the duplicate values automatically. The only annoying thing about it was that it only worked in Adobe Reader. This year they went to a poorly designed plain PDF form that only let you fill in individual digits for each line item, with tabs needed to shift each place value.

maerF0x0 8y ago

I know there's slight irony in using google for this. But if you want to add an annual reminder to use freetaxusa.com https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWExcjdycjQ1Ymk2djQ3NjA3dGozaTlpYWtfMjAyMDAzMTUgbWlrZWdyYWYwMDBAbQ&tmsrc=mikegraf000%40gmail.com&scp=ALL https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWEx...

OrgNet 8y ago

H&R Block try to get you to pay at every other page while you are filling your return... But I still went with them because the last 2 years I filled the forms online at a couple different companies and H&R Block was getting me more back.

wycy 8y ago
Your taxes should come out the same no matter where you fill them out. If you get different numbers between services, you're missing something on one of them.
- OrgNet 8y ago
  I know that but I have very simple taxes and was too lazy to lookup the difference... it just appears that H&R Block's defaults are better.
linuxasheviller 8y ago
Taxes: Where we openly brag about finding ways to contribute less to society.
- OrgNet 8y ago
  Taxes: where the government keeps finding new ways to make you overpay....

JohnFen 8y ago

TurboTax has a pretty troubling history of working against the best interest of taxpayers, from stuff like these dark patterns to their constant lobbying to ensure that the IRS won't offer any taxpayer services that would be of wide benefit to people.

0x54D5 8y ago

I pirate it every year because fuck Intuit. I also got rid of my Mint account. I always print and mail in my state taxes. I always save both in the proprietary format and to PDF and sync to my Dropbox. This way any irreversible problems are versioned and possible to reverse. I will NEVER EVER use their website. I'd rather schlep to an accountant and have an actual person to talk to. For those asking... how does that work? Well the normal CD version of Turbotax just assumes as long as it's installed and on your computer that it was obtained legally so there's no need for a crack or anything like that. You simply can't E-File the state taxes without paying a fee. Easy to avoid by simply printing it out, signing, and sticking a stamp on an envelope. I've been doing this for 8 years and I've never paid a dime to Intuit. And I never will. Any Congress critter that actually makes it easier to vote using only federal software and which takes care of complex situations like stocks and other capital gains will have my vote for life.

4restm 8y ago

I used Credit karma it was pretty painless for a 1040. e-filed both state and federal and didn't cost a dime. Albeit I bet they hope to get revenue from credit card recommendations.

dlandis 8y ago
They don't support all states unfortunately.

turc1656 8y ago

I agree with the base assessment the article poses which is that dark patterns are used to get you to pay. But the underlying implication is clear from the tone and wording in the article - that this is a bad or dishonest thing. First off, Intuit is under no legal obligation (to my knowledge anyway) to provide any service for free. They have promised to do so, but I don't think anything related to this promise is legally binding. Second, they're in it to make money so clearly all advertising is going to be geared to the paid products. Lastly, the idea that typing a reasonable search into Google and having the page with the actual result be the 5th link which you then click into and have to read the requirement of getting something for free is somehow shady seems a bit dramatic. Not to mention that when I type that same search string into Google now it's the first link after the featured snippet (which is also a link to the IRS, but a different page). I don't think that's in any way unreasonable or undesirable. That's about as close to idiot-proof as you can get in my opinion. And we're talking about something that's free here so there's pretty much no incentive to assist it. And in this case, as per the article, there's active incentive to hide it and yet it's still really easy to find.

CreRecombinase 8y ago
I could see the logic of the argument "these aren't dark patterns", or (to a lesser extent) "these are dark patterns(and therefore dishonest), but dishonesty isn't bad". I'm having trouble working through your argument "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest". Might a fair restatement of your argument be something like: "Reasonably informed people should know that Intuit is a profit-seeking entity, and should therefore expect Intuit to pursue all legal means to increase profit"?
- turc1656 8y ago
  That restatement is pretty accurate and I would agree with it. And I wasn't saying dishonesty isn't bad. I was saying the implication the article makes that they are dishonest is something I disagree with. So "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest" is indeed what I'm saying - you are correct in that. I generally don't view dark patterns as dishonest. I think that's where you really took issue. I find them more of an annoyance to keep an eye out for and circumvent. And I believe nearly all dark patterns can be spotted and avoided simply by paying attention - i.e. which button is actually confirm and which one is cancel, doing a ctrl-f to find the word "unsubscribe" so you can easily find it, actually reading the words on buttons/links rather than using color as a content guide, etc. EDIT - grammatical error.

dugluak 8y ago

Yep, I fell for the 'audit threat' and paid $19. Even if I was pretty confident that I wont get audited or even if I did there won't be any problem as my tax return is as simple as it gets and I have nothing to hide.

dangus 8y ago

I want to take this opportunity to mention that the IRS Free Fillable Forms service is completely free for anyone. It might not be the best choice for everyone, but I found that despite all these tax services' low cognitive load, they ask so many questions with so many steps that the actual time that it takes to file with TurboTax wasn't actually any faster than just biting the bullet and reading some instructions. Again, I think it's not a great choice for many people but it's the one I'll be using moving forward.

mixmastamyk 8y ago
I've looked at that section on the IRS site every other year for twenty, still can't make heads or tails of it. I end up opening another tab and downloading 1040.
- dangus 8y ago
  It's not much different than logging into any other tax website provider, except that it's less slick and nice, and you have to actually fill out the forms rather than answering questions. This is the actual direct link to the site in case you actually haven't been able to find what you're supposed to use: https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/ https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    That seems reasonable. However, it looks like a third-party rather than the IRS, which doesn't inspire confidence.

liface 8y ago

I've used https://www.freetax.com https://www.freetax.com for the past three years and paid nothing. I have a complicated return as well - 1099 income, rental property, capital gains, and I receive distributions from being part-owner of a company.

joshuaheard 8y ago

You can still file free if you make over $66,000 per year, it's just a more limited edition. I have used it for years with no problems. If you are comfortable with filling out the forms yourself and reading the accompanying IRS form instructions, you should be fine. It's federal only. https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd Protip: some of the forms do the math for you, but some don't. Also, there are no worksheets available. So, I use a spreadsheet to do the math and calculate the worksheets.

justaaron 8y ago

news flash: the entire tax filing and tax payment industry, to say nothing of tax code itself, uses dark patterns to this effect.

ashelmire 8y ago

It is way easier and faster to file your taxes using paper forms. And free! Maybe your hand isn't held as much, but for a group of people that know how to use ctrl-f, it should be pretty easy to get it done. Now, this is certainly unfortunate. I'd prefer to submit my taxes electronically via simple forms on the IRS website instantly. But with the lobbying, this is what we're stuck with.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

My tax situation was simple enough but I’ve always used a service. This year I used a few services but didn’t file, them printed out the infilled returns and was shocked at how few documents I would have to fill out if I did it on my own. I ended up using Tax slayer and filed for free.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

Let’s not forget this is the same company that robbed tech workers in secret do not hire pacts that included eBay, intel, apple and google.

eyeareque 8y ago

Regular reminder that intuit and H&R Block lobby to keep the government from simplifying tax filings to protect their business.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

When I was young my mom would go into H&R Block to do her taxes. She was a single parent raising 2 kids on minimum wage income. She wasn’t tax savvy at all and English was a 2nd language. I recall her paying $89 at the time. I always found it odd that someone as poor as her had to pay money to file taxes. I was too young to say anything at the time. So much for free tax preparation. I wonder how many millions of Americans and for how many decades have been ripped off by these scumbags.

ourmandave 8y ago

Lobbying congress to pass laws so the IRS can't offer free filing is a very dark pattern indeed.

behringer 8y ago

I switched to hr block when I saw what turbotax wanted to charge. I saved 70 bucks by switching and I got to verify my taxes were figured properly!

wyattjoh 8y ago

For us Canadians out there too, SimpleTax[0] is complexity free as well! Super simple design, easy to file. We've used it for a while. [0]: https://simpletax.ca/ https://simpletax.ca/

gschier 8y ago
SimpleTax is awesome!

doktrin 8y ago

The state to which the US tax system is an absolute hellscape becomes crystal clear when/if you move abroad. I currently live in one of those small european countries touted (often accurately, sometimes not) as a utopia, and sure enough filing taxes is basically 99% automated. The more complex your income the more work is involved - of course - but for the vast majority of users who own 1 piece of property and derive most of their income from an employer, it's basically ready out of the box. The hardest part for me - by far - of filing income tax is and remains filing my US taxes, which unsurprisingly becomes extra complicated and burdensome as an overseas citizen. We can only dream of the day when the bizarro hydra that forms the anti-tax-reform lobby is somehow defeated, but that realistically feels like a not-in-my-lifetime kind of deal.

failrate 8y ago

Regardless of whether Intuit is willfully or accidentally using dark patterns to get paying customers, their incentives completely explain how they ended up with such a complete garbage endpoint. Of course, that is being very generous, because they are also directly influencing the policy makers that establish the incentive structures for Intuit.

thatoneuser 8y ago
You think they accidentally tripped and fell into their website design?
- failrate 8y ago
  No, it is likely intentionally bad. Angel's advocate.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gmoore 8y ago

One of the many examples of why we need GOOD government...

spartas 8y ago

Most of what you’re paying for as a TurboTax customer is not the benefit of the software. You’re paying for the company to lobby the government to make filing your taxes more expensive. Intuit has the perfect scam.

punnerud 8y ago

Can also recommend this paper for more information on how ‘Dark patterns’ work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186

low_key 8y ago

It's bad even when it stays free. Massachusetts has a tax site (which seems to be created and run by Intuit) which you can use to file for free. It, however, has been built purposefully to make it much, much more difficult to use than the paid version (that they push hard when you file your federal taxes with TurboTax). The free version does very little error checking prior to submission. It won't even check for things like empty fields that are required for everyone (e.g. the field for your birthday on the state health care form). The state paid for the free version with tax money and it lacks fundamental usability. * Doesn't perform basic validation * Doesn't calculate fields that can be automatically calculated (though there is a button you can press which will fill some of them) * Takes 24-48 hours for "processing" after submission before you are notified of acceptance. In actuality, this tended to be 4-15 hours, but still... it's just doing basic validation. I got rejections for empty fields and miscalculated fields (ones that I shouldn't even have to enter at all.) * Reports errors in a obscure manner, which makes it a chore to determine what is wrong (violates "Business Rule F1-1025", etc.) * Amounts to an electronic version of the paper form, where it only really does exactly what you put on it... add incorrectly: won't be detected, skip a line: no problem * I could go on, but you get the idea If you use the paid product that is available from the same company (Intuit), it will handle all of the above automatically. So really we have is a company that has made a crippled version of software they are already selling. They double-dip with a lot of people this way and they don't compromise sales on the paid product. If you wait until the last day to file using the free site, you are unlikely to get it accepted in time since you won't have a second chance for submission. The product built for the state could just be a really poorly written and managed contract, but knowing the way Intuit behaves generally, I doubt that is all that's going on.

yubiox 8y ago

I guess I will switch to freetaxusa next year. I've used turbotax for 25 years (I worked for Chipsoft, the previous owner before Intuit, in 1994). I found receipts going back to 2007: $99.98 $96.98 $61.98 $71.98 $86.98 $86.98 $66.98 $66.90 $66.90 $39.95 $19.95 $84.90 * They must have tricked me into clicking something for a bogus $50 deduction maximizer. $44.95

United857 8y ago

Another example: when you're done filing, TurboTax offers you the option to pay your taxes via credit card -- e.g. if you want points/miles -- for a fee of 2.49% (or more, haven't checked recently) The verbiage seems like it's the only way to pay via credit card if you filed via TurboTax. However it's not true. You can file via TurboTax without paying. Then directly go to the 3-4 IRS authorized payment providers who will let you pay via card for less.

nameisu 8y ago

used it only because i had crypto losses to claim

bscphil 8y ago

The real dirty secret of tax software is that even after all they've done to try to make filing your taxes as difficult as possible, I still find just using the IRS's "FreeFileFillableForms" software to fill out and submit my own 1040 far easier than any software I've ever used. In particular, every piece of tax software I've used has had trouble with figuring out what I owe on scholarships and stipends, and letting me enter it in the software. After four hours fighting H&R Block's "free" software one time, I swore I would never do it again and just do my own taxes now. Far easier, and faster. Plus since I'm a California resident filing state taxes is as easy as reading numbers off the 1040 to put into the FTB website.