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Why aren't figs considered vegan?
- fsniper 8y agoAfter watching a YouTube comedy video, where wasps describe themselves as murderous, but uselessness insects, I was thinking of researching wasps. This was an unexpected, but welcome read. So they are not only murderous, also incestuous, but not useless. At least this fig born species.
- wurst_case 8y agoI had the same journey. If anyone is curious what we're talking about: https://youtu.be/08kMdn8L7Yw https://youtu.be/08kMdn8L7Yw
- kabacha 8y agoMost of wasps are also polinators and in general are considered a boon to the environment: https://www.dw.com/en/good-bees-bad-wasps/a-45555518 https://www.dw.com/en/good-bees-bad-wasps/a-45555518
- gambiting 8y agoConsidering figs not vegan because of this is insane, frankly. If that's the standard you want to apply(the food should not have any insect parts in it) then there will be nothing for you to eat. Zero. Any kind of grain will always contain finely ground insects, in minuscule quantities but you can be 100% certain they will be there.
- amelius 8y agoYes, see e.g. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/but-not-simpler/i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-but-you-already-eat-bugs/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/but-not-simpler/i-hate-...
- jpatokal 8y agoFrom the friendly article: Even the ones that do contain wasps can be considered vegan in my opinion. Veganism is about reducing harm and suffering, and these wasps aren’t being harmed. After all, no one is forcing the wasps to fertilize the figs. It’s part of their natural life cycle.
- Fnoord 8y agoInsects don't contain a CNS. Therefore, insects are vegan according to my defintion of vegan. Just like the champignons (mushrooms) and jellyfish and yeast are vegan. I'm reminded about this beautiful documentary about the fig tree and her symbioses: The Queen Of Trees [1]. This is an official version. It was broadcasted on American TV, and this was ripped on BitTorrent. I can highly recommend watching this documentary. It teaches us how cruel yet intelligent nature (and evolution) can be. There are mutual benefits for different species who suffer or die in the process. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy86ak2fQJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy86ak2fQJM
- devoply 8y agohttps://invbrain.neuroinf.jp/modules/htmldocs/IVBPF/General/Insects_nervous_systems.html https://invbrain.neuroinf.jp/modules/htmldocs/IVBPF/General/...
- keithnoizu 8y agoWell. I think the trick is, if you are cultivating figs specifically for sale, and wasp corpses are a necessary component of the trade then part of your food preparation process specifically relies on the death of wasps. With out the fig farmer there would fewer insects captured in the fruits. So, if one thinks insects aren't vegan I think you can make a logical basis for not wanting to include figs in your diet. For hyperbole, if the only way for mango trees to grow was by soaking up the nutrients of dead sheep, and so every mango farm would chop up a ewe for fertilizer once a week to maintain their orchards, than would mangoes still be considered vegan?
- gambiting 8y agoAs someone else pointed out - those wasps dying in the figs is part of their life cycle. It's not us exploiting animals to produce something for consumption - if anything, by cultivating more fig trees we allow more wasps to breed. As for your example - if the sheep's natural life cycle included being consumed by a mango tree in order to breed then sure, I'd consider those mangoes vegan. If we have to kill the sheep in order to grow mangoes ourselves(but the sheep gets nothing out of it) then I would not consider them vegan.
- bloogsy 8y agoThe article touches on this, but veganism is not about only eating plants - it's actually an ethical decision to avoid anything that harms animals. As such, figs are definitely vegan since the wasp is living its natural lifecycle.
- michaelt 8y agoI understand what you mean, but I don't know any vegans who would eat a steak from a cow that had died of old age.
- rhn_mk1 8y agoAnecdata vs anecdata, but I've met people who consider themselves vegan, while eating any kind of food destined to the trash to avoid the waste. That kind of behaviour could easily be misunderstood, so none of them advertise it much.
- croisillon 8y agoI have yet to meet an omnivore who would do it [edit: omnivore instead of carnist]
- jlg23 8y agoVisit arid Africa: eating an animal before it was /used properly/ (could be as simple as fertilizing the land here in southern Morocco) is considered wasteful.
- croisillon 8y agodo they eat animals dead of old age?
- lostlogin 8y agoCan something die solely because it’s old?
- skilled 8y agoIs there anything similar on Bee Pollen? What are people's thoughts on this? I have met people who are extremely opposed to it, whereas I myself can't get enough of it.
- clydethefrog 8y agoWhen someone disturbs a colony to take honey or pollen it places a great amount of stress on the bees. This disorients them for a period and, in that sense, their whole order has been tampered with. We cultivate honey bees just like chickens, cows, and pigs, and like all agriculture animals, their high population is a harm to wild populations: they compete directly for nectar and pollen, transmit diseases, and push wild bees out of their native areas.
- skilled 8y agoHmm, so, my local farmer who sells glass jars of Bee Pollen at the market is doing this as well?
- lostlogin 8y agoSort of yes, sort of no. You can collect pollen without opening up the hive. However hives must be opened regularly to inspect and treat, which actually helps the hive in easily measurable ways, like ‘is the colony alive?’.
- lostlogin 8y agoDone right, beekeeping doesn’t stress bees very much at all and there is a feedback mechanism which trains the beekeeper very quickly if they are bad at it. If the beekeeper works in hot, still weather, is careful and avoids the squashing of bees they can work without smoke or protective gear. Even basic things like entrance size are not controlled in the wild, and having a beekeeper open the entrance or reduce it down is a huge advantage to a colony. Managed bees can be looked after such that they live far longer than any feral colony will. Diseases haven’t been shown to be spread to native bees in New Zealand, but competition for food sources is definitely going to be occurring.
- devoply 8y agoWhatever makes you feel better about ruining the planet through your economic activities. Natural suffering is normal. The suffering introduced through industrialized farming or even normal farming is not normal. That suffering can't be escaped by simply not consuming animals as all life is affected through industrialized farming of everything, organic foods included. The only way to save the planet is by eating 100% naturally sourced road kill that is 100% naturally fed and killed by chance.
- zapzupnz 8y agoThis feels like a snarky comment that is in direct response to absolutely nothing contained within the article. Care to elaborate on your point? I don't see any link to the argument proposed by the answer highlighted by the link, but if you have one, I'd love to see it.
- devoply 8y agoI read the article and found it insane that figs are not considered vegan because their natural reproductive cycle may lead to them naturally having a bug inside them... which is a natural part of that insect's life-cycle. Hence I felt the need to be critical of it.
- zapzupnz 8y agoIt states that some people mightn't consider figs vegan, however it then goes on to state how non-commercial figs, by definition, do not contradict the official definition of veganism as defined by the Vegan Society, and also denotes that commercially-grown figs are completely clear of the issue anyway. The article addressed the very thing about which you were critical with concision and clarity.
- Grustaf 8y agoI’m very curious how the author believes that this story can be used to shut down anti-Darwinists, and ideas? Self sacrifice for your offspring seems pretty Biblical.
- seanwilson 8y agoI wish people wouldn't generalise that because 1) some people might consider figs non-vegan and 2) this line of reasoning might be weird/stupid, then 3) most vegans must think this therefore veganism is weird/stupid as a whole. How many people that say they are vegan consider figs non-vegan? Are there surveys on this? I'm going to guess most haven't thought about it (figs aren't daily in most places), don't have a strong opinion on it or don't see the harm if the insect does this process itself, yet the natural reaction of comments in newspapers is to strongly attack veganism using fringe issues like this. Most of veganism seems pretty straightforward and rational but there's a bunch of edge cases like figs, honey, almonds and avocados people love to use a means to attack the whole concept as stupid. It would be like looking for fringe cases of things meat-eaters do (e.g. eating animals while they're still alive, eating dogs and cats) and using that to attack meat-eaters. I'm seeing recently that newspapers love to run veganism stories where readers jump in with comments mocking imaginary vegans that hold extreme fringe views (who is actually claiming this? how many are?) to compound their existing beliefs that veganism is stupid. It's exactly the same thing as political filter bubbles where nobody is learning anything because everyone is sharing extreme and fake stories in an echo chamber. The goal of veganism seems to be to make choices that are better for the planet and reduce animal cruelty - it turns out the choices you need to make to do that aren't always obvious (which is interesting in itself), but that shouldn't be a reason to ignore the whole concept or ridicule people who are trying to make a genuine attempt to help others.
- dgellow 8y ago> It would be like looking for fringe cases of things meat-eaters do (e.g. eating animals while they're still alive, eating dogs and cats) and using that to attack meat-eaters. Don’t worry (or do worry), newspapers will attack veganism, vegetarianism, AND carnivorism (or omnivorism) if they have ways to create inflammatory headlines. That’s not something reserved to only one subset.
- strainer 8y agoMedias treatment of of different subjects is not randomly balanced in the way you assure. Clearly, positions which are more popular with readership require better treatment than less popular ones, and positions which are popular with advertisers have to be treated most respectfully.
- LogicalBorg 8y agoArticle is missing some relevant information. 1. Enzymes in the fig digest wasp parts so you don't normally find wasps inside your figs. So they really are vegan. 2. The males are flightless and wouldn't have escaped anyway. The females only escape long enough to go lay their eggs in another fig. So it really isn't that dramatic. Source: https://www.jerseyshoreonline.com/dear-pharmacist/figs-really-contain-wasp-parts/ https://www.jerseyshoreonline.com/dear-pharmacist/figs-reall...
- triplee 8y agoI already loved figs, but TIL they are metal AF and I love them more.