8 ms·
It maybe starts with simple statistics. But then you want to know what features the user use, then you want to know what other programs they have installed. The
by z3t4 8y ago
It maybe starts with simple statistics. But then you want to know what features the user use, then you want to know what other programs they have installed. Then you want to know what the users search for on the web. etc. It's a slippery slope.
- joshschreuder 8y agoYou've literally described a slippery slope fallacy
- jlawson 8y ago"Slippery slope" is not a fallacy. Life is full of slippery slopes in terms of behavior.
- dymk 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_... No, that still falls into fallacious usage. The user doesn't justify why the steps of their assertion follow after the other. Just that they... do.
- steve_taylor 8y agoNo one needs to justify the "why" when we're talking about a very well trodden slippery slope.
- dymk 8y agoFallacies don't just stop applying when it's convenient to elide justification.
- Sir_Substance 8y agoThat's true. However, we also don't collect history for the fun of it. Over the course of the last 20 years, we've seen that once a data collection and digital surveillance framework is put in place, the surveillance tends to expand. Slippery slope arguments, sans good reasoning, tend to be fallacies. However, don't fall into the trap of thinking that an argument backed by historical record is a slippery slope just because it's predicting an outcome. We might call that the "history is all slippery slopes" fallacy. Stating "this has happened before multiple times before, and each time has lead to x" is a very different argument to stating "this has happened, so the logical extrapolation is x".
- justatdotin 8y agoif it can be that well trodden, is it really still a slippery slope?
- mixmastamyk 8y agoOverwhelming empirical data across history.
- johncolanduoni 8y agoThat’s proof of existence of slippery slopes, not of prevelance of hypothetical slippery slopes being realized.
- mixmastamyk 8y agoWe’re talking about data collection and usage, not possibilities in the universe.
- johncolanduoni 8y agoExactly, which is why I'd be more interested in concrete commonalities of slippery slopes that were actually realized, and not just a general "history has plenty of slippery slopes".
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y agoThe fallacy is to assume, without evidence, that the slope is slippery. There are plenty of slopes that aren't. Probably most, just you don't think about those because you know they aren't slippery already. For example, I slept in 'til 8:30 today. OMG, a slippery slope. Next thing you know, I'll be sleeping until 3PM. Til midnight! I will never wake up again. But as it happens, sleeping in isn't a slippery slope. I don't think there's any solid evidence that telemetry is either.
- sitkack 8y agoThis is exactly why I get up a minute earlier each day. As it is, I am waking up tomorrow at 4:39 AM. Mission accomplished.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago(10 years into one possible future) “... and that was me before we had children.”
- iopq 8y agoUmm, it's slippery for me. I haven't had a stable sleeping schedule for over ten years. Send help.
- colordrops 8y agoThat's the "hasty counterexample" fallacy.
- colordrops 8y agoIt's not a fallacy. When a printer driver reporting stats back to the manufacturer made national news in the early 2000s and prompted calls for laws regulating privacy, the argument was that it was a slippery slope fallacy to assert that privacy violations would get worse. Look at where we are now.
- enraged_camel 8y ago>>It's not a fallacy. By itself no, but it is often used fallaciously. Such as in this case, when someone is opposing some good thing on the basis that that good thing might, some day, lead to bad things.
- steve_taylor 8y agoGood things such as trackers ostensibly designed to deliver you relevant content?
- enraged_camel 8y agoNo, good things such as telemetry and automated error reporting so that bugs can be fixed effectively and efficiently and everyone is better off for it.
- wolco 8y agoThat sounds nice. But could they use this data legally in another way?
- jjeaff 8y agoNot realizing that many things actually ARE a slippery slope is what has gotten the world into a lot of messes. Nearly every legitimate privacy concern that we have today started out with a legitimate and we'll meaning purpose. Our entire legal system is predicated on common law precedent. So it is very valid in many cases to argue that allowing something good now, might set us up for something very bad later.
- 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y agoIt's a shame we have to assume the worst. What would be better is for Microsoft to be more transparent about the telemetry and to enable more granular control. That said, I wouldn't bother checking as I don't really care. I rub shoulders with infosec issues daily, as most IT folk do these days. When I think about the perceived risk of telemetry from VSCode, now and in the future it's a negligible risk that I accept.
- jakear 8y agoThey are actually very transparent about the telemetry they collect, and they offer granular control. There is a log of all events sent to MS, and a page in settings dedicated to the different types of telemetry they can be enabled.
- felixgallo 8y agoIncorrect. That page has essentially no detail.
- specialist 8y agoFWIW, I'm completely comfortable with telemetry, analytics, whatever so long as 1) there's a complete local log and 2) I can opt-out.
- mkl 8y agoWhere is the log stored? All I can find online are some instructions that seem out of date as they don't refer to the interface I see (or I don't understand them): "You can inspect telemetry events in the Output panel by setting the log level to Trace using Developer: Set Log Level from the Command Palette." [1] The "page" in settings consists of just two options, and the complete descriptions of the types of information they collect are "crash reports" and "usage data and errors". That seems the opposite of transparent and granular. Am I missing something? [1] https://code.visualstudio.com/Docs/supporting/FAQ https://code.visualstudio.com/Docs/supporting/FAQ
- naikrovek 8y ago
- ryder9 8y agoyou should read up on slipper slope fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
- pissfu 8y agodid you read the article you linked? "Logic and critical thinking textbooks typically discuss slippery slope arguments as a form of fallacy but usually acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments can be good ones if the slope is real—that is, if there is good evidence that the consequences of the initial action are highly likely to occur. The strength of the argument depends on two factors. The first is the strength of each link in the causal chain; the argument cannot be stronger than its weakest link. The second is the number of links; the more links there are, the more likely it is that other factors could alter the consequences."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_...
- eridius 8y agoWhere's the link between "collecting data on VSCode feature usage" and "gathering a list of all other apps the user has installed on their system and all web searches the user does"?
- nneonneo 8y agoI mean, I can definitely see “all other apps” being collected as a way to check if there are apps conflicting with or interfering with VSCode. Maybe it’s only collected for a small subset of users with particular issues - but it would still be tempting for a dev to try and collect. I can also see them collecting code searches done within the app as a way to check if their search system is working well for real use-cases. Neither is outside the realm of possibility - you just have to put yourself in the mindset of a dev who is assigned to track down a rare crash or to “improve the search experience” who might want a little more data to work with. Not saying I agree with any of this collection - it’s terrible and definitely falls under “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Companies should be extremely clear about what they will and won’t collect - and never cross the line even if it would be useful.
- millstone 8y agoI think it sends MS every keypress in search fields - https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/49161 https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/49161
- zeusk 8y agoIf you had actually read that issue, > Lol, probably just an oversight because they made the search a lot better. > So I think it only does this on the settings file and not on other files ;) > https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2018/04/25/bing-settings-search https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2018/04/25/bing-settings...
- kotrunga 8y agoNo matter what, it's an opt-out setting that can only be disabled with: "workbench.settings.enableNaturalLanguageSearch": false That's unacceptable.
- Stuckinsofa 8y agoCan you explain why this search feature is a problem because I don't understand?
- userbinator 8y agoMaybe not understanding the problem with a tool that may be used to work on proprietary code containing trade secret information silently and unexpectedly sending information out to the Internet is the reason for software becoming spyware...
- zeusk 8y agoEmphasizing from my original post, >> it only does this on the (VSCode) settings file and not on other files ;)
- 8y ago
- nwah1 8y agoOne could be totally uncritical about the current or future intentions of Microsoft and still prefer a version with no telemetry. Data breaches are very common. Employees, hackers, or governments could all gain access to the data. The data could be accidentally broadcast or left in a vulnerable place. Even the payroll data for the national security establishment was once reported to be compromised. Everything is vulnerable. Computer science is in such an abysmal state. Even with properly configured servers, OSes, and databases that are up to date, they are still vulnerable to zero-day attacks because they are not formally verified and have enormous and largely unnecessary complexity. Then throw in the crazy complexity of processor instruction sets, creative side-channel attacks, and stuff which exploits the physical properties of the hardware (rowhammer). It is reasons like these why we should never really trust transmission of sensitive data over the internet. The concept of secure voting systems, for instance, is literally a joke. insert obligatory xkcd here
- est31 8y agoYeah, there is a reason why the Kremlin uses mechanical typewriters.
- savant_penguin 8y agoIMO they could get whatever statistics they wanted, as long as they asked before collecting
- chii 8y agoand also, what they intend to use said statistics for.
- eridius 8y agoWhy would Microsoft gathering usage data about VSCode turn into spying on the user's other apps and web searches? There's no connection between the two. Tracking usage of VSCode features has a clear connection towards improving VSCode. Spying on the user's activity outside of VSCode has no connection at all to improving VSCode.
- naikrovek 8y agoEvery time I hear the phrase "it's a slippery slope" uttered by someone arguing against something, I am immediately suspicious of the argument that person is making. There really isn't such a thing, in the way you've used that phrase. Capturing telemetry on how I use a tool from within that tool is perfectly fine, to me. Collecting telemetry on my search history in the browser by that same tool isn't. THERE ARE NO INTERIM STEPS that makes the second of those ok. There is no slope. If there is, it isn't slippery. There is a series of discreet decisions and at some point (which is different for everyone) a line is crossed. There was no slope or slip that brought you there, only a series of mostly unrelated decisions. To think that Microsoft's long-term goal is to install a keystroke logger via a multi-decade and multi-phase plan that begins with application usage telemetry in a free developer tool thanks to "a slippery slope" is just simply not realistic.
- tdesilva 8y agoIt's called a fallacy for good reason.
- wolco 8y agoWhen you walk in the wrong direction the final step off the cliff is the last one. Better to get off of the slope because choices get fuzzier the closer you get to the sun.
- z3t4 8y agoIm not making that up, it was in the TOS for VS/code last time I checked.