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Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to Airports
- ttsda 8y agoIt's revolting how much money will be spent by the American government on mandatory luggage CT scans, especially considering the cost such scans have in the medical context where lives are truly at stake...
- mattkrause 8y agoCT scans are actually fairly cheap, as far as medicinal imaging goes, unless you need to acquire a ton of slices really quickly (e.g., to image the heart). The 256 slice ones can run into the millions, but you can get a used 8 slice machine for ~five figures, and there aren’t a lot of consumables. An MRI machine will easily run into the millions ($4M or so for a 3T, much more for the newer high field ones), and you need a steady supply of cryogens to keep the magnet cold.
- lordleft 8y agoThe moment I pull out my ipad and macbook and entrust the fate of around 3000 dollars worth of electronics to the competence and benevolence of government officials who barely give a shit is my least favorite part of the travel experience
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- finaliteration 8y agoI don’t know why, but for me it’s the shoes. My laptop bag makes it fairly easy to take my laptop out and put it back in, but dealing with taking my shoes on and off really fucking bugs me. It’s totally irrational, I know.
- jimktrains2 8y agoShoes cross the line to requiring the removal of clothing in my head. It's not exactly the same, of course, but they are much closer to clothing than luggage.
- QualityReboot 8y agoI think your feeling is pretty rational. It's pretty annoying for no benefit. I wish they also offered flights with lower security. I'm fine getting on a plane if everyone went through a metal detector and kept their shoes on.
- byte1918 8y agoThat won't fly. As we, I hope, already know now the security is not only for the people on the plane.
- chii 8y ago> I'm fine getting on a plane if everyone went through a metal detector and kept their shoes on. that's an interesting thought. May be if the price of a ticket could be made cheaper by cutting out these TSA bullshit, the market could correct this problem.
- LyndsySimon 8y agoThis already exists in the form of regional airlines. I live in Harrison, AR. I can fly to Memphis or Dallas for like $40 each way if I book a couple of weeks out. There is no TSA in Harrison, and the airline operates from their own hangars, not the general terminal on the other end. I usually travel with a handgun, which I of course declare in my checked bag. They hand me my bag back and I carry it to the plane with me, and in a couple of instances have even asked me to put it under my seat due to limited cargo space. I’ve been told multiple times that I shouldn’t even bother declaring it by airport staff but I’m not clear enough on the laws there to take that advice.
- isostatic 8y agoMost frequent flyers would pay more to avoid the TSA
- intopieces 8y agoImagine traveling with five laptops, overseas, because your corporate InfoSec policy doesn't let you ship laptops to your coworkers. Then imagine being picked at random for additional screening and being asked to let $10,000 in company assets roll on through out of site while you get the pat-down. The only time I ever made polite insistence to a TSA Agent, that day.
- js2 8y agoI accidentally left my MacBook in the bin at MIA. I didn’t notice till I got home a few states away. It made it to lost and found and my father was able to pick it up for me. I was pretty shocked. This was before Pre. Since I’ve had Pre it’s not necessary to remove the laptop.
- smacktoward 8y agoAnd it only took 17 years for them to figure out a way to make it happen! Who says America can’t get things done anymore.
- scarcely 8y agoYou done goofed
- dang 8y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it a lot, and we eventually ban accounts that do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- scarcely 8y agoOK, I'll try to contribute more high brow stuff
- ams6110 8y agoCT scanners? Can I get a lead apron to wear in the screening area please?
- pdonis 8y agoThey're shielded. And the current machines also use X-rays; there's no change to the kind of radiation used.
- ars 8y agoBut the direction changes. Current machines aim downward. The new ones will spin, and fire in all directions. And there is more radiation in total since now there's there are multiple images, while before it was just a single one per bag. I'd also be concerned about backscatter going out the sides, since there is more radiation in total. All that said, the shielding should take care of it.
- mindslight 8y agoTry asking them why they're not wearing dosimeters. They get really defensive!
- Someone1234 8y agoThis CDC study[0] looked into that question, the answer was inconclusive (with some workers receiving a higher annual dose than is allowed, while most received a safe dosage). The problem seems to be malfunctioning scanners. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2003-0206-3067.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2003-0206-3067.pd...
- btgeekboy 8y agoIsn’t that what dosimeters are supposed to help detect?
- Someone1234 8y ago
- clamprecht 8y agoBut now TSA has started asking me to remove any food items from my bags for the scanner. Does anyone know why?
- SallySwanSmith 8y agoExplosives usually look similar to organic matter on xrays
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- eddiezane 8y agoCan confirm. I often travel with a big Ziploc bag of stickers (life of a Developer Evangelist). Have started removing it from my bag for security because it usually triggers a search.
- scarcely 8y agoWhy not stick them on your back and just peel one off when you need to give one off?
- scarcely 8y agoTwizzler is not organic matter is it?
- stevenwoo 8y agoIt been stated that it makes the X-Ray scan easier to read, because passengers have been stuffing their carry on items so full of stuff. Maybe there is some explosive item that has the density of some food. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/03/27/tsa-might-ask-remove-food-carryon-bags/460221002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/03/27/tsa-might-a...
- jahewson 8y agoChocolate.
- bhawks 8y agoSadly it isn't even faster and requires more staff to operate. While the CT pilot program didn’t show reduced wait times at participating airports, the agency is expecting the technology will speed up lines as passengers and staffers get used to the new processes. Pekoske said he expected more staff to be needed initially as the new machines are put in place.
- Someone1234 8y agoThey're planning on using "AI" (Machine learning/Computer Vision) to slowly automate identification. They already do this now, but are limited by the quality of images. > For example, TSA is working to develop new algorithms that use machine learning approaches to discriminate between threats and benign objects, making the screening process more effective and efficient. Machine learning also offers a way to screen for all prohibited items (explosives, firearms, sharp objects, etc.) automatically. It is anticipated that machine learning algorithms not only will improve security effectiveness but also will support automation in future security systems, thereby enhancing operation efficiency and improving passenger experience through increased throughput and decreased false alarm rates. More broadly, machine learning algorithms can be applied to assess security performance and provide system-level improvements beyond performance enhancements realized at individual screening operations. https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/TSA%20-%20Advanced%20Integrated%20Passenger%20Screening%20Technologies.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/TSA%20-... It is worth noting the limitations of such techniques: Familiarity. Back when Apple switched their Macbooks from HDDs to SSDs, a lot of early purchasers got flagged at TSA because their laptop didn't match a profile (i.e. looking for a spinning stack of platters). With CT technology, we could see even more nuanced differences get flagged for unusual.
- MertsA 8y ago>With CT technology, we could see even more nuanced differences get flagged for unusual. Good, that's more data to learn from and that would only be a minor issue for a short period of time for new devices. How often have you flown with something that other passengers hadn't likely have flown numerous times with before you? Even if the system picks out 0.1% of items for manual classification and training, that's still mountains and mountains of data for it to learn from and that would only take a tiny fraction of the time for airport security to identify compared to what they deal with now.
- randomacct3847 8y agoGlobal entry/TSA pre-check is the best $100 you can spend (or not since the application fee is covered by a lot of premium credit cards) Keep shoes, keep laptop in bag, keep jacket on, way shorter line...I’m simulateously happy that not everyone is doing it and dumbfounded why anyone who travels more than a few times a year wouldn’t have it by now.
- enraged_camel 8y agoYes. I felt bad about giving TSA my money, but like you say, it's worth it, especially if you fly semi-frequently. Global Entry is the best part because after a long international flight the last thing you probably want to do is wait another hour or three on some long passport line.
- koolba 8y agoOn the one hand it’s great. But on the other nobody should have to go through the security theater that is regular non-precheck TSA. I’ve long believed the only solution is to mandate that Congress travel as regular citizens so they realize how slow and pointless the process has become.
- opportune 8y agoI don't buy precheck out of principal. You shouldn't have to pay extra for a less invasive security experience
- TallGuyShort 8y agoI used to feel the same way. I shouldn't have to, but if the choice is paying or getting felt up, I pay. Me not paying won't stop the feeling up anyway.
- hopler 8y agoGetting felt up is the only part I enjoy.
- 8y ago
- godelski 8y agoBut when are we going to have the real discussion about security theater?
- perfmode 8y agoLets get it on the table.
- ekianjo 8y agoNext, how about removing the ridiculous limitations on carrying a bottle of water with you?
- TallGuyShort 8y agoHow hard is it to pour your possible explosive liquid into a bin with all the other possible explosives in the center of the largest, densest crowd in the airp... Oh wait I see your point.
- joering2 8y agoWow. Make sure you let us know how the FBI visit went.
- asark 8y agoLots of us had the same thought with those famously huge crowds at airport security just post-9/11. Cabinet member on one channel (we had channels then) telling us how sophisticated, dedicated, well-funded, and capable our adversary is, and how they're basically everywhere. Change the channel, story about massive lines at airports. Put two and two together, quick mental math involving how long air travel might be crippled in the entire OECD by a single attack at a security line and the economic damage of that—not to mention the, you know, terror of such a follow up attack, I mean it's right there in what we call this whole thing—then the cost of such an attack versus the entire 9/11 project (a fraction), and as the weeks pass and the obvious doesn't happen you start to go "hey wait a minute, that may have been a crazy fluke by some not-well-coordinated group and the cabinet member's just bullshitting me about this Bond villain terrorist organization thing." I suspect having had that thought was a common differentiator between the folks who were on board with the plan at least until Iraq, and those who were already going "hey can we wait a minute?" before the invasion of Afghanistan.
- simonsarris 8y agoAbout a year ago I was at an airport (Boston? New Jersey?) outbound that had a sign or TV monitor saying "Great news, you no longer need to take your laptop out of your bag!" I read this sign as a TSA worker shouted every 30 seconds to the shuffling line about how everyone needed to take out all laptops, "ipads", cameras, etc. I wonder if it was a pilot program. Or more likely, just part of the constantly shifting fabric of pointless theater. I fully expect these new machines are primarily to sell machines, and not to fulfill any other purpose.
- seandougall 8y agoYeah, it's always up to the whims of the underpaid TSA agent who happens to be there that day. Back when iPads were new, I got scolded for taking it out of my bag, and scolded for leaving it in my bag, by agents at the same airport on two trips a few weeks apart.
- jcims 8y agoIn the last 8 days: CMH->MCO ‘remove your belts please’ MCO->SEA ‘keep your belts on’ SEA->CMH ‘i’d recommend you take your belt off’
- blankobj 8y agoI was on a business trip in a suit years ago and had to take my belt off. By the time I got through, someone took my belt. TSA agents couldn't find it. Didn't have time to do much else besides suck it up. I was flying w/ a superior mentioned TSA lost it. Not sure if he believed me... but definitely cost a lot to buy a new belt at the next airport. Still had my laptop though.
- jkqwzsoo 8y agoAt one point, I was travelling with my dad when the "shoes off" policy was relaxed (I think the shoes-off policy was relaxed a couple of weeks/months after the shoe bomber plot, but I can't recall exactly when -- and then it was put back permanently). "Agent": Sir, I recommend you take your shoes off. Dad: That's okay. I don't need to take my shoes off. "Agent": Sir, I'm going to need you to take your shoes off NOW! In addition to challenging the authority of the Memphis TSA agent, my dad is half Japanese and looks quite a bit less white than I do.
- narrator 8y agoJust get TSA pre-check. It's so freaking easy and it makes airport security checkpoints not a big deal at all.
- Fwirt 8y agoUnless there's low volume that day so they don't open the pre-check line. Or the airport is too "small" to have a pre-check line. When it works, it's great, but it seems to be luck of the draw whether they'll actually honor pre-check status.
- selectodude 8y agoI’m not the most frequent flier in the world, but I have never flown to a US airport without a precheck line. At worst, they’ve handed me a placard for the people manning the scanners saying I can leave my laptop in my bag and my shoes on through the standard metal detector.
- vaishaksuresh 8y agoWorks only for US citizens and Permanent Residents.
- jkaplowitz 8y agoAnd many other nationalities through Global Entry (GE includes TSA Pre), plus Canadians and Canadian permanent residents via NEXUS (which includes GE and through that also TSA Pre). There was a time where what you say was true, but they've broadened access.
- doorbellguy 8y agoHere you go [1]. It's a lengthy and tedious process but it is there. --- [1] https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/international-arrangements/global-entry-indian-citizens https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...
- umanwizard 8y ago
- umanwizard 8y agoWow new technology? What now-lost mysterious technology was it that allowed us to get along fine without taking our laptops out of our bags 20 years ago?
- nine_k 8y agoThe lack of fear? Not in passengers but in the officials: what if somebody sneaks something in, and blows a plane? To alleviate that, a "we are doing all we can" CYA strategy should be in place.
- duxup 8y agoI was always amazed how I had to take my laptop out ... but I carried cameras, gaming devices, all sorts of other electronics in bags and nobody cared.
- btbuildem 8y agoIt's fascinating how the security theatre has gotten so big that now it basically just rolls forward under its own momentum. It's been around long enough that people accept it as normal, it serves no other purpose than to employ the unemployable and fill contractors' coffers, and it seems that no entity is able to stop or dismantle it.
- bitreality 8y agoI'd say the last 15+ years of air travel has been pretty safe in the US. To say the security has accomplished nothing is a stretch.
- poizan42 8y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghLpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghLpw
- umanwizard 8y agoIt was quite safe in the 15 years before 2001 too. As for the major incident that happened in 2001 -- it wouldn't have been stopped by any amount of scanning of people's laptops.
- orblivion 8y agoCockpits are locked. Passengers are more vigilant. Bruce Schneier argues that this made all the difference. I don't know if it's right but it seems like not a stretch.
- TimTheTinker 8y agoIf anything, the most (or only) effective aspect of TSA checks are that they remind people to be vigilant. That may be the single best reason to continue using security theater, and a very strong argument in favor of keeping it.
- valleyjo 8y agoThis is a pretty cynical viewpoint but I agree. It’s clear that TSA doesn’t do much. Someone I know has acidentially brought a pocketknife through security multiple times without it being found. They keep it in my backpack as a regular item and just forgot to take it out.
- yesimahuman 8y agoSounds like this will be less damaging for photographic film? Not that the carry on x-ray scanners were bad in the first place but the less damage potential the better.
- rgbrenner 8y agoCT is a more powerful xray with multiple images taken at different angles. If xray is damaging, this will be more damaging.
- adictator 8y agoThe new normal that is TSA.
- KerryJones 8y ago"While the CT pilot program didn’t show reduced wait times at participating airports, the agency is expecting the technology will speed up lines as passengers and staffers get used to the new processes. " So, they just agreed to $97 million worth of new technology with no proven benefit. Great.
- ttsda 8y agoNew technology with no proven benefit in the airport security context, which is going to be applied to every passenger's luggage for no extra charge, and will retain it's tremendous cost in the truly life-saving medical environment.
- gumby 8y agoA dowsing rod would work as well except it would be hard to justify the fat contracts awarded to friends and former colleagues.
- provolone 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651 'Some of the devices came with "detector cards" which were programmed, the fraudsters claimed, to detect everything from explosives, to human beings and dollar bills through concrete, water and from great distances'
- sulami 8y agoWe’ve had this (or something similar) at Amsterdam Schiphol for a while now. With the scanners here, everything stays in the bag, electronics and liquids. The time savings are quite noticeable, because people are so slow at taking apart their baggage. Now they just throw on their bag, take off their coat, and maybe their boots, and they’re done, easily saving 1/3 of the time spent at other airport security lines.
- alifaziz 8y agoI remember when I was in Changi Terminal 4 airport in Singapore few months back I do not need to take out my laptop from the scanner.
- djhworld 8y agoPretty sure they had this at McCarren when I was there late last year, just had to dump my bag in the tray and walk through the metal detector (didn't even need to take my shoes off - although they had a sniffer dog earlier in the line) Seemed to work OK, well, until my bag got pushed into the "additional screening" line and had to open it up for the guy to look at
- adictator 8y agoA few years back, my 3 year daughter was asked to get out of her stroller, remove her footwear & go through the scanner. This was in Dulles, VA. I'm in perfect health & if I have a choice I never fly. I take the Amtrak or drive even though they are more expensive options. Looks like we'll have to concede defeat to the security theatre monsters. The terrorists have really won!!
- RickJWagner 8y agoYesssssssss! Technology can be awesome.