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Ask HN: Those who moved careers from the West to China, what's your experience?

191 points by jaxbot 8y ago

There's often talk in the news about China wanting to poach Silicon Valley talent to build up their own tech scene. There's also talk of founders who moved to Shenzhen to be closer to hardware development for rapid prototyping. However, I've struggled to find individual examples of experiences. Has anyone done this, or know someone who has and blogs/tweets about it? I'm curious how this looks in reality.

max_im 8y ago
my impression is that unless you're in a super high-demand and high-level role (ie. Andrew Ng), it's still not that appealing compared to the US. For engineering roles, you're going to be worked harder and for lower pay than in the US. As an engineer with a degree in Chinese, I originally planned on working in China but found much better options stateside. Some of my colleagues have been successful in getting decent business-side tech jobs in China, or doing supply side stuff for businesses based outside of China.
- koala_man 8y ago
  >for lower pay How is it when adjusted for cost of living though?
  - orian 8y ago
    Holidays, iPhones and cars cost almost the same everywhere. As an engineer "adjusted" usually means you're underpaid :-)
    - koala_man 8y ago
      What's your spend on those things compared to housing, food and services?
      - xenihn 8y ago
        May as well go to Taiwan if that's your concern.
    - lm28469 8y ago
      Anecdata; I live in berlin and get about the same salary as my uni friends who stayed in Paris. I live in the city center 5 min away from my office and can eat every single meal in a restaurant + go out every other night for a couple of drinks without even having to look at my bank account. I'd be bankrupt in two weeks if I had the same lifestyle in Paris. Sure iphones and vacations cost the same, but restraining your day to day life (aka 95% of your life) to get the next apple gadget or plan your next vacation seems like a pretty bleak life plan.
      - orian 8y ago
        So you've chosen the right place to live. As an engineer who changed the country and got salary adjusted, it's just bad economical life choice. It's better to earn more, your options are just so much wider. You can save money, invest etc. Before I could buy iPhone for less than 10% of monthly salary, now it would be more like one monthly salary. I use iPhone as the example, but the life for me is not 10x cheaper, maybe 2-3x. Therefore, unless you have some other reasons, choose place with highest salaries or companies which don't adjust or work remotely.
  - Digory 8y ago
    COL is a little better, but far closer than people think. Real Estate prices in the best areas of Beijing can easily top $1,000 a sq. foot to buy an apartment (though there may be an inversion in rent). Comparable cars are more expensive. Consumer goods are about par. Education for kids can be expensive. Food can be cheaper in China. But a western quality life in a first tier city will not be all that cheap.
  - zhte415 8y ago
    What adjustment for cost of living? Assuming living in a Tier-1 where the tech-hubs are (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen), rents for a 2/3 bedroom apartment somewhat centralish (these are vastly larger, more populous, and higher density than most American or European cities) will be at least USD 2000, possibly 4000 depending on taste (apartment, not house). Pension may need to be privately paid, and tax-band will be above 40% for anything that can support the above. Purchasing equivalent consumables like food and eating out western-style will be the same or double than the cost in most of the USA. If with kids then international schools are pretty expensive in China, over USD 20k per kid per year. International driving license not hard but car questionable as the above Tier-1 cities have restrictions / waiting lists / lotteries on license plates. Cost-of-living adjustment is only relevant if: no kids, no pension, able to adapt to eat locally (quite hard for a lot of people especially when hitting the ground with a full time job), don't mind a 30-60+ minute subway commute (cheaper rents).
    - jayrot 8y ago
      > eating out western-style There's your problem, LOL.
    - presentation 8y ago
      It sounds like you never really tried to integrate, so here’s my experience living in Shanghai, the most expensive mainland city - eating mostly Chinese food I would eat stuff like jianbing with chicken and pork for breakfast for about $0.80, lived in a studio apt in a shikumen building 5 mins walk from IAPM/陕西南路站 (I would consider, quite central) for about $400/mo that I actually found on Airbnb, not even using local apt finding services (bc I was there relatively short term, 4 months, and didn’t want to sign a lease) where I could have found one even cheaper probably, and was eating out for dinner at an average cost of maybe $5 to $7 per meal, or around $20-$30 if I wanted to splurge. Then again, I took time to learn Mandarin against the advising of expats who reassured me that I’d never get any good and therefore should just not try, so maybe that’s where my perspective differs. Sounds like your problem is trying to replicate western lifestyle in China, if you do that everyone sniffs the blood and will find ways to rip you off on everything. Though yeah, schooling probably would be a pretty big expense - no way I’d send my kid to Chinese schools either.
- cepp 8y ago
  While I agree with you about the money and work-ethic, I think some aspects can be far more rewarding than in the US. In China, you're not making an absurd of money for it to only go to taxes and COL. Instead, you make a comfortable amount (comparably) and can still live a good life. I also haven't found it particularly difficult to get good offers. Quality systems engineers and architects are in high demand in China (due to both the ML boom but also low quality of this particular aspect of CS education there) and so if you find the right company you can be making just as much as in the US if not more (speaking from experience).
paulsutter 8y ago
A warning for folks considering working in China (love to hear this debunked if untrue): https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-scam.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-... > no foreign person can own stock in a Chinese domestic company not already listed on a stock market. So any such option or stock transfer is void from the start. Foreigners are not permitted to be shareholders of Chinese domestic companies, nor does China recognize the concept of nominee shareholders.
- ganguwudan 8y ago
  One would have to be a very immoral individual (OP?) to be even thinking about working for a dictatorship that has enacted concentration camps, shut down all kinds of religious activities, and jailed pastors and democratic demonstrators alike. Not to mention the extreme social credit scores and AI-assisted censorship and monitoring of people living there. Why not check out other countries? Taiwan, South Korea or Japan perhaps if one is interested in hardware.
  - makotech222 8y ago
    USA does all those things already too, lol.
- sabujp 8y ago
  you can via ADRs, at least for large companies they usually follow the market. However under the hood this seems unfair. Why does China get to be protective but the the west does not? Just greedy non-chinese companies that don't care where the investments are coming from?
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    can there be an ADR for a company that is not listed on the stock exchange?
  - ralph84 8y ago
    > Why does China get to be protective but the the west does not? The short answer is the west was seduced by access to the Chinese market and was willing to do one-sided trade deals to get that access.
boltzmannbrain 8y ago
A couple examples of AI engineers moving to Tokyo (I know it's different) and sharing some thoughts on Twitter: - David Ha w/ Google Brain: https://twitter.com/hardmaru https://twitter.com/hardmaru - Adam Gibson started Skymind in Silicon Valley and moved to Tokyo a few years back: https://twitter.com/agibsonccc https://twitter.com/agibsonccc
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  At least Japan lets non-permanent residents avoid taxes on income from abroad (that stays abroad) for the first 5 years. Depends on your home country whether this lets you avoid their taxes. In some cases, this can save a lot of tax.
  - usmannk 8y ago
    Do you have any information about this? I've been looking into the tax implications of moving to Japan recently and it's not been easy to sort through.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      Just googling. It looks like it was a better situation pre2017 though: www.mondaq.com/x/561782/tax+authorities/Change+In+Taxation+Of+NonPermanent+Residents See an accountant/lawyer yada yada. The bitcoiners that gave up their US citizenship, or otherwise left their home country and moved to Japan probably came out well tax-wise.
rlglwx 8y ago
To be honest, don’t don’t it. Unless you’re of Chinese descent and speak the language, you won’t be able to advance in most companies. The work culture is alien to most westerners and the benefits to your career are negligible. Mostly depends on what you want out of your career but speaking as someone that lived in China and worked in Chinese tech companies for seven years, including being the first foreign hire for a large mobile games company, it’s not something I’d recommend mid-career. Maybe just starting out or if you can be hired into a c-level role.
- jaxbot 8y ago
  Thanks for the insights, much appreciated! To be clear, are you a westerner who made this move, or a Chinese native? If the former, how did the startup culture compare to the US startup culture? >of Chinese descent and speak the language What about westerns who speak mando? Is it workable or still too much of a culture shock? Is racism abundant?
  - komali2 8y ago
    >mando Is it a regional norm around you to refer to Mandarin as "Mando?" Never heard of this in my life...
    - omosubi 8y ago
      I've heard this a lot, especially when referring to both Mandarin and Cantonese, ie. Mando and canto
    - jaxbot 8y ago
      My Chinese friends do. Not sure if regional. I think it's just the logical shortening when the other option is 'canto', but it doesn't really make sense.
    - philsnow 8y ago
      I've heard chinese pop music referred to as either c-pop or mando-pop
    - 8y ago
driverdan 8y ago
Why would anyone willingly move to an authoritarian dictatorship?
- koala_man 8y ago
  For me it was the money and opportunities. I turned a blind eye to the power abuse, human rights violations and corruption, and moved to the US anyways.
  - j_shi 8y ago
    lmao. kernel of truth to be sure but in fairness American legal system and democratic governance do strictly result in more liberty and security for individuals by and large, corner cases notwithstanding
    - koala_man 8y ago
      Definitely. The fact that I can even make such a joke strongly supports that.
  - jimrhods23 8y ago
    "I turned a blind eye to the power abuse, human rights violations and corruption" I'm not sure how you can compare the US, which does have it's problems, but is one of the least racist (and offers many more opportunities to people that start with nothing) countries in the world to China, one of the most corrupt and authoritarian. In China, for example, you need to include your head shot on your resume and I've known people that were told the were too fat to work at a company. If people actually cared, they would look at the gross human rights abuses by the Chinese government. You just don't see things like this: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/china-and-tibet https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/china... In the US.
    - 49531 8y ago
      You don't see reports like that about the US because of US hegemony, and most things that do come up is usually by the UN and isn't taken seriously. I'm not saying china is perfect by any means, but things ain't great in the US either. They just seem normal to us because we're used to it.
witcherchaos 8y ago
I am curious, why not japan or South Korea? Or even Taiwan, which google is now opening offices there?
- jaxbot 8y ago
  Google has offices in Shenzhen, too. And one could debate whether Taiwan is a country or part of China. But that aside, the pull seems to be China's incentives and access to local hardware manufacturing. Not just the idea of living in Asia instead of the West.
  - koala_man 8y ago
    >one could debate whether Taiwan is a country or part of China At least we can while we're in the west
  - torgian 8y ago
    And lower pay overall
intellix 8y ago
Haven't moved my career here but am working remotely for a couple of months. All of my work is European and I'm on the verge of leaving due to how bad the internet gets at night. Throughout the day you've got ExpesssVPM and Shadowsocks but at around 7pm every night there's a huge crackdown on foreign traffic where even obscure sites fail to load. It's probably fine if your work is 9-5 but outside of then the internet for foreign usage is pretty much unusable that I want to curl up into a ball and cry most nights. Baidu and Chinese sites will consistently ping at around 40ms consistently but at night you're looking at something like 70% packet loss and 2sec pings outside
- rwmj 8y ago
  Is there some reason why this only happens from 7pm? I would have thought that the net would either be censored all the time and nothing would ever work, or else a VPN would work always.
  - JoelTheSuperior 8y ago
    If I had to guess, they reduce the censorship during the day to lessen the effect on businesses. In the evening it's primarily going to be people using the internet at home, which they'll want to control more tightly.
    - srouhaewaehy 8y ago
      Also in 9-5 China time most western people are not online. But in the Chinese evening Europe wakes up and then slowly also the US comes online leaking into the Chinese morning.
rahimnathwani 8y ago
I'm in a WeChat group for Product Managers in China. Someone asked a similar question a few weeks ago. The context of their question was: - product management (not engineering) - working as an employee of a Chinese tech company (not starting something themselves) With those caveats out of the way, below is the text of my answer to them: "As I understand it, until maybe 2000 or 2005, there was a lack of people with specific experience in many many areas. So the median foreigner coming to China had better experience (and ability) than did Chinese people with a similar educational background and age. As China's economy has developed: - many more Chinese have gained that experience - many Chinese who worked in US/Europe for many years have come back (or can be tempted to come back) As a result, most foreigners are equivalent to a local Chinese person, except that: - they know English very well (advantage for policy/comms/bizdev roles) - they don't know Chinese well (e.g. hard for a Product Manager to work in a Chinese company when the working language is Chinese and most engineers and other peers don't speak Chinese well) - they aren't in touch with local culture (e.g. don't use the new live streaming platforms that everyone else does) - they need a work visa (only a minor issue for all but the smallest companies) There are foreigners here [in this WeChat group] who work for Chinese companies (e.g. @[REDACTED] @[REDACTED] ) and are very good at what they do. But it's not easy. I've interviewed at two large Chinese companies you've heard of. Both of them tested my level of Chinese early in the process. One took me by surprise because the interviewer had grown up in the US and so could obviously have interviewed me in English. In the other, I was expecting interviews in Chinese, but one of the interviews was with a data scientist and that kept me my toes as I didn't have the vocab to explain my answers fully/concisely." Oh, and take note of the last sentence of rlglwx's earlier comment: "Maybe just starting out or if you can be hired into a c-level role." If you're just starting out, then the pace and intensity of working at an early-stage Chinese tech company could be an amazing learning experience. If you bring distinct experience that can get you a very senior role, then you will work very hard but could also be very well compensated. If you're in the middle, it's tricky due to the competitive issues I mentioned above.
- captainjustice 8y ago
  "As I understand it, until maybe 2000 or 2005, there was a lack of people with specific experience in many many areas. So the median foreigner coming to China had better experience (and ability) than did Chinese people with a similar educational background and age." I've heard this argument often, but as a someone actually living and working here, I have to say that this hasn't changed at all or at least not in the tech sector. Local senior developers here in Shanghai and Beijing are usually equivalent to a western mid- or junior+ developers. Often you see senior devs that couldn't even be hired for junior position in the US or Europe. Managers are often selected through relationships and connections and only in few rare cases have any kind of ability or competence for their role.
captainjustice 8y ago
I moved from Europe to China to work as a mobile/backend dev. Pros: - Salaries these days in China's big cities are pretty much same or better than in Europe - Income tax and living costs are significantly lower - Former two combined: your living standards will increase a lot here. - If you live in big cities, life is good and you can live really western life style - Extremely safe and very peaceful. Street crimes and violence are pretty much nonexistent. Cons: - You really have to take much more responsibility. You might find your dream company with excellent salary here or you might end up in sweatshop with shitty salary. General rule: Avoid really local Chinese companies and work for international ones like Apple, Microsoft, Google, western startups etc. - Internet is blocked (can be easily bypassed with VPN though) - Chinese culture might be hard to deal with for many foreigners. - Competence of Chinese developers and especially managers is really low when compared to the West In general: It's a wild and scary ride, but I'd recommend it at least temporarily.
- abc-xyz 8y ago
  More cons: you're directly supporting a surveillance state that has no regard for human rights, that is engaged with concentration camps and medical genocide, and that won't hesitate a second to kick you out of the country and ban you from entry without telling you why or for how long, likely resulting in you losing any type of investment (relationship/financial/etc). It doesn't matter if you've been a good citizen for many years, and you have no way of appealing the decision. If you end up in a relationship with a Chinese citizen then you also risk (s)he won't be allowed to go abroad to a Western country (quite common for those who don't belong to the higher class). You'll also be denied entry at most hotels that aren't 4-5 star because they don't allow foreigners, and the same goes for apartments. If you try to stay at a friends apartment then you risk the landlord calling your friend to say foreigners arent allowed to stay there. I tend to stay at relatively cheap hotels (often the cheapest I can find), in China I'd get denied by 9/10, in any other country I've not once been denied. Trying to rent an apartment in China without going through an agency that have a "Green Book" will result in similar odds. Do yourself a favour and go to any other Asian country where you won't be supporting modern day Nazis, and where you won't be treated as dirt by the government. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, etc. are all great options that will most likely give you a better experience.
Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
China executes thousands of political prisoners per year to harvest thier organs on an industrial scale.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    I don't think you're going to get away from this. By living in and working in China, paying Chinese taxes, and supporting Chinese companies, you are directly supporting an authoritarian regeime.
    - bdamm 8y ago
      As a Canadian living in and working in America, I have a similar although less dramatic moral difficulty. The fact is that the American government is curiously abusive compared to your average developed national government.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
        As an American citizen I agree with you, but I think that the comparison to China is excessive and inappropriate - and serves as some kind of perverted justification for China's crimes against humanity.
        dang 8y ago
        Please stop doing nationalistic flamewar on HN. The denunciatory rhetoric you've been invoking in this thread has no role in the kinds of conversations we're looking for here—it's a different sort of game, for a different sort of website. Since you're an experienced HN user, I'm sure you know this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        8y ago
zukunftsalick 8y ago
i've been in Hong Kong for 6.5 years already. Worked in small consultancies, large logistics company, and local startup. PROS: a) Salary is high, especially if you get to work in finance/insurance/luxury retail fields b) disposable income (aka savings) is extremely high as income tax is low, no more than 17%, also, no capital gains tax! c) great hub to work and explore Asia CONS: a) IT jobs (development mainly) aren't that exciting as they are mostly outsourced to cheaper countries so you ended up being a lonely team member in HK or in management type of jobs. There's always exceptions to this (Credit Suisse, Lalamove, Chengbao to name a few) b) tech is lagging behind in all aspects, from testing to devops. For example; Continuous Integration I'm yet to see a team in mid to large companies effectively having and respecting the build. This can be seen as an opportunity if you are willing to try. c) You work longer hours, more stress and generally fewer vacation days However, if you come here to work as a founder to be closer to Shenzhen (factories), you also reap the benefits of an established legal system in Hong Kong. Plenty of highly motivated fresh graduates as well.
- goobynight 8y ago
  Define high (at least the ballpark). I had a much different experience in the same city. I doubled my pay by coming back home.
  - zukunftsalick 8y ago
    high as in I usually have 50% of my income available after paying rent/food/transportation and other costs. Rent is high if you keep "western" standards for your living space, likewise for food.
    - jaxbot 8y ago
      Honestly that's comparable to SF, percentage-wise. But the 50% that's left will be higher.
      - zukunftsalick 8y ago
        Yes, I know you could potentially earn 180k as a junior per year but then you potentially have to live in the US.
rodneyzeng 8y ago
Agree with comments below. Don't do it, unless you are native Chinese and earned a high degree and would join a key high-tech company working on research topics, and have high lever relationships with the company.
yibg 8y ago
I’ve sort of done the move. If you are not ethnically Chinese and speak the language, there will be a few things to get used to. The degree will depend a bit on where you end up. For example: - pollution can be a big problem. - if Chinese company, work culture can be very different. More top down, longer hours etc. - noisy. Most places you go in big cities you are surrounded by noise. Cars, people, construction. It doesn’t end. - I find the general quality of things to be lower. Buildings are poor quality generally. Side walks aren’t as maintained. A lot of things look nice from a distance only. - internet obviously. Things are blocked and vpn can be flaky. - many every day things will be more difficult. Banking, medical care etc. On the other hand many things are also much more convenient. Food delivery, transportation (unless you want to drive yourself) etc There are pros too of course. You get to learn about a different culture and language. You’ll be relatively wealthy compared to most people there. It’s really easy to meet new people. In the end I’d say move there if there is a good reason: Higher salary, better opportunity you wouldn’t normally have or if you just want a change / adventure AND you can live with the cons, at least for a while.
- educationdata 8y ago
  I would like to add: Even if you are ethnically Chinese and speak the language, don't go back to China unless you really cannot find a decent job in the west. Especially if you are young and educated in the west, here are the things to consider: - It is not very hard to find a STEM job in the west, and the pay is good. - Your parents are healthy now, not much to worry. It's better to get a green card before they get old. - You may start a family soon. It is much much easier to raise a child in the west.
  - refurb 8y ago
    Care to expand on your last point? I haven’t heard that before.
    - TomVDB 8y ago
      One thing is the stress and pressure on kids to perform well on testing in school, which transfers to the parents. It's already pretty bad in the US, but it's nothing compared to China (or Asia in general.)
rb808 8y ago
I don't know much, but did see there was a Bloomberg series about Shenzen that had some Western entrepreneurs in some episodes. It looks awesome tbh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLmaIbb13GM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLmaIbb13GM I think in that episode they were talking about the Hax incubator. https://hax.co/ https://hax.co/
wakkaflokka 8y ago
I've been considering a move to Japan. My pay would likely be several tens of thousands of dollars less (still very good, relative to the market but less than what I could command in a Western market), but it's also an opportunity to have a very different life experience. Money vs. experience, it's really tough for me to figure out what's more important.
- jaxbot 8y ago
  I think this is a lot of what it comes down to. Even taking a sabbatical and working overseas would be appealing depending on how the career winds blow. I'm curious about the money opportunities, but there's also a major value package that's non-monetary, and it would give a better perspective and skillset when returning to the west.
- deanalevitt 8y ago
  If you're relatively young, no kids, etc. then it's definitely worth trying out for a couple of years. You won't have lost much time.
- shinymark 8y ago
  One anecdote - I moved to Japan 12 years ago when I was 26 to work as an engineer in a game company. I stayed for two years. Like anywhere there were pros and cons but overall it was a fantastic life experience that I’m very glad I did.
- komali2 8y ago
  If we're tossing other countries in the hat, throw in Taiwan. It's like China, minus the smog, tyranny, and bad internet!
  - magduf 8y ago
    The only problem is that they constantly have China talking about how they want to invade and retake it.
    - 8y ago
tanilama 8y ago
I would say unless you look like Chinese, speak like Chinese, have the resilience to endure long hours and enjoy adventure, then maybe China isn't really for you. Like bamboo ceiling is a thing in US, similar ceiling will be put upon foreigners in China, unless it is your own company.
logicchains 8y ago
I worked in Shanghai for a couple years for an international company. If you go somewhere with western managers (or Chinese who worked in the west) the management may not be much more hierarchical than in the west. If you can, start work at a non-Chinese branch of a company with offices in China and then transfer, as expat packages are often better than what you'd get if you were hired as a local. China has something called 996: 9am-9pm, 6 days per week. If you don't want to work such hours, you'll have fewer options in the tech industry. Personally, I think how much you enjoy it will depend on how much you enjoy Chinese culture. From my experience, expats who stays "expats" forever, only hang out with other foreigners and don't learn the language, are less satisfied than people who integrate more, have local friends, learn the language, and enjoy things like KTV and hotpot. The locals are generally quite pragmatic and in some sense libertarian, in that many will do what they can to skirt laws and regulations that get in their way (which at least in past was perhaps necessary for survival in the corrupt, oppressive conditions there). So if you like "hustle", you'll like it, but if you think Uber are monsters, laws are made to be obeyed, or principles trump pragmatism, then you probably won't have a good time. Also if you're insecure about your appearance you may not enjoy it there; people can be very frank (like, a colleague might observe "wow, you've gotten fatter, what did you eat?"), and many job listings require a photo attached to the resume. Similarly people are more comfortable mentioning racial stereotypes than Americans are, so if (often well-meaning) racism bothers you then again, maybe better not to go. Reasons to work there? The food is amazing and there's so much variety, the sheer number of people and opportunities is greater than almost anywhere else due to the population size (more people --> greater absolute number of people at the tails of any distribution --> there are some really awesome people there), and it's extremely safe. Things like delivery and transport are excellent due to economies of scale. There's also a lot of personal freedom there; the government aside, normal citizens will generally leave you alone and mind their own business, and won't e.g. call the cops or child protection when you let your child play alone outside. If you have kids there they're also much less likely to develop a drug or alcohol problem, should that be a concern; drug use is much less common there, and although the legal drinking age is something like 13 there generally isn't a binge drinking problem (maybe because the kids have too much homework).
sparkie 8y ago
I don't have personal experience living in China. I've followed SerpentZA and laowhy86 on youtube for many years, who share and film their own experiences living in southern China. They have a shared channel, ADVChina, where they ride around on motorcycles and discuss often controversial topics related to China and the upsides and downsides of being a foreigner there. They have some great content and a few good documentaries too: Conquering Southern China and Conquering Northern China. [1]:https://www.youtube.com/user/churchillcustoms https://www.youtube.com/user/churchillcustoms
Fanding 8y ago
As a native Chinese, this is our experience https://996.icu/#/en_US https://996.icu/#/en_US
mooreds 8y ago
I believe Ian Bernstein at Sphero moved to China. Here's the podcast that I remember him mentioning it in: https://www.blubrry.com/execpodcast/20878353/036-from-zero-to-sphero-w-ian-bernstein-cto-sphero/ https://www.blubrry.com/execpodcast/20878353/036-from-zero-t...
devy 8y ago
Ex-Googler Scotty Allen has done exactly the things you mentioned about for a few years now migrating from California/Seattle to Shenzhen China! He hosts a great YouTube channel called "Strange Parts"[1], you should check it out! [1] https://strangeparts.com/ https://strangeparts.com/
cepp 8y ago
NOTE: I wanted to say I spoke pretty good Mandarin before going to China the first time. I knew what I was getting into and really wanted to be there. If you appreciate Chinese culture and have studied a bit ignore everyone's warnings - you'll be fine. I'm late and most of what I have to say has already been said, but I'm a bit of a different story, given as I'm Western but started my career in China. I've worked at a top 50 startup in Shanghai (Video++) and most recently at Alibaba. Given that I'm 22, and have spent the majority of my internship/working career in China I'll give my take: - Living in China has been better than anywhere I've lived in the US (CT, NYC, ATL, SF). There's abundant food that's both very good, and very cheap (both relative and absolute). - Not only is the food cheap, but healthy. Very little food is processed (most is prepared fresh) and everywhere I've worked we've had wonderful meal services that prepped healthy portions. I lost a ton of weight working there without even working out or changing my diet! - Cell service is really, really good and affordable. However, internet service is quite bad and no amount of money can remedy this. At Alibaba, we had fibre laid in Hangzhou so this is the only time I've ever experience moderately fast connection speeds. - GFW etc isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Any reasonable company already has a proxy or VPN for you to use at work, and there are a number of good VPNs for personal use. I never felt I missed out on the Western web, only that it was a bit slower to connect (see above). - Technology is abundant and fast-paced. You can rent umbrellas, bikes, phone batteries, etc. If you can think of it someone probably is working on the problem and you'll experience things you've never seen before in the US. - Pollution and noise are a problem but not terrible. You certainly adjust and you do have to make some concessions i.e. I never cycled while living in Shanghai, and sometimes wore a face mask on particularly bad days. - Transit is much better. In Shanghai and Shenzhen, the subways are practically brand new. Not only is there cellular/WIFi connectivity but they're always on time and people queue very neatly for them. High-speed rail is ubiquitous and cheap. Didi is objectively worse than Uber though. - The work environment is quite different: 1. Management (where I've worked) has been practically non-existent as compared to the US. This might be because I do research, but I've never had a micromanager, or standups, etc. 2. Daily naps are a thing. Expect to find people taking an hour nap after eating lunch. 3. 996 is real. Most people at tech companies will work 9am-9pm 6 days/week. 4. It is expected you basically live in the office. You'll eat all 3 meals there, and spend a lot of time with your colleagues. Family time, and going home for dinner isn't a thing like it is in the West. I'm sure I've left a lot out, but the above has been my experience in China. I'm planning on taking a full-time offer that'll put me back in China, and clearly, am biased as I think the quality of life is better there compared to the West. Feel free to ask me any questions.
sureaboutthis 8y ago
My sister-in-law's ex-husband traveled to China for weeks at a time and often. After their divorce, he moved there permanently. Two things happened. Right away, he lost a lot of weight because he didn't like the food. Too many things he would never consider eating but he had to eat something. I don't know if it's the area he was in but he is still too thin today. They divorced because he met a Chinese girl and married her. I don't recall the details--it might be a cultural thing--but it sounds like he was bamboozled into providing a lot of financial support to her Chinese family. The impression I get is that he's now stuck and it's a heavy burden.
- osrec 8y ago
  Wow, that doesn't sound great. Hope he at least has some job satisfaction?
  - sureaboutthis 8y ago
    I'm not sure but he's been doing it a long time for a really big company that makes notebooks and you might own one.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  > traveled to China for weeks at a time and often yeah well... this is a recipe for marriage disaster, people need human contact
- mtw 8y ago
  Doesn't really make sense to me. Guy travels to China for weeks and often. After all this, he discovers that he didn't like the food?? It would like someone traveling to the US for weeks and often, decides to relocate and then doesn't like the place because he discovers most people speak English
  - sureaboutthis 8y ago
    He discovered he didn't like the food on day one. What's your point? The question is about experiences moving to China.
kimown 8y ago
https://996.icu/#/en_US https://996.icu/#/en_US
NicoJuicy 8y ago
https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU/blob/master/en_US.md https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU/blob/master/en_US.md A "996" job refers to an unofficial working pattern (9 am - 9 pm, 6 days a week) that has been gaining more popularity. Serving a company that encourages the "996" working pattern usually means working for at least 60 hours a week. TLDR; A protest going on right now of developers in China. ICU means Intensive Care Unit.
avinium 8y ago
I can't speak for "founder/tech startup" scene in China, but I did spend 4 years as a manager in the property development arm of a large foreign retailer. 1) As far as I know, the overpaid expat days are over. A lot of Chinese have returned from long stints overseas, and they're bringing that experience back with them. If you want a good position, now you actually need to offer something unique. 2) It's not impossible, but you will struggle if you can't speak Chinese. It's funny how this working generation were all forced to learn English at school, but many of them can barely string a few words together. Depends on your industry, of course. 3) Most of your business interactions will be unpleasant. Chinese companies will lie, cheat, steal, and anything they can to sell you down the river. Most of your time will be spent watching your back and trying not to get screwed. Same goes for employees. 4) The pollution is horrible, and one of the main reasons why so many people left at the same time I did. 5) Managing teams can be a nightmare. Chinese employees love empire building, and their answer to any problem is "you need to give me more people". 6) Decisions are very much top-down, and noone wants to second-guess the boss. This means companies are constantly lurching from long periods of inaction (waiting for the CEO/ Chairman to make a decision) to mad sprints/crunch time (once they make a decision and insist that it be carried out in a ridiculous timeframe). 7) "Face-time" is very much a thing. Many employees are working 12 hour days, but most of that is spent on WeChat/mobile games/etc. In short, would I recommend someone do it? Yes - if you can speak Chinese, have no kids and can swing a well-paid, time-limited posting (say 2 years) with your existing company. It's an eye-opening experience and really makes you value things that you take for granted in the West.
- vfulco2 8y ago
  Excellent point on #3. I have heard so many reasons for this. I have no idea how a foreign CEO sleeps at night with all the backroom embezzlement activity I have heard about. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in inflated P.O. going into the wrong aka less efficient, less competent hands because it can.
contingencies 8y ago
The reason you find it hard to find experiences is that there aren't a lot of us who stick around. Across most of China the dominant foreigner is the young visitor, maybe as a student, maybe teaching English. There are also some old English teaching hold-outs, married people running F&B businesses, and a few traders (the imported wine merchant is a classic). Other professionals are rare outside of major cities and industrial areas, save occasional NGO/intergovernmental projects, conferences and trade shows. Travelers are pretty rare. To over-generalize, the type of media these people leave online is usually somewhere between "OMG squat toilet!" and "found a McDonalds!", to "selfie at [landmark]" or "[me picking up locals]". I've done my time: 18 years here, and only hospitalized for salmonella three times! About half-way through I went back to the west for 2 years, then came back to China. I've also taken an extra year out. The short answer is the situation has been changing frequently. It's a lot more expensive now (cost of living), visa rules have changed greatly, the government is getting more aggressive at taxing foreigners, there are still few decent jobs for foreigners (outside of multinationals who generally fill them via internal transfer from elsewhere), and the domestic economy is in slowdown. It's a great place for hardware businesses, mostly due to supply chain. The manufacturing isn't the cheapest anymore. Legals and government are a pain in the ass. My advice? If you want the language, you have to stay, and if you're going to stay, make sure to study a few hundred characters, and study basic Chinese history. You'll get far more out of your stay with no additional overhead after covering those basics. If you want a job from someone else, go elsewhere unless you bring experience and are in to career track stuff like management consulting, marketing strategy or some other kind of middle management where international perspective can add some value. If you want to start something in hardware, it's better to do it off-books and base yourself somewhere cheap near the border, eg. border-hopping Hong Kong/Shenzhen, or nearby in Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, etc. Running a company here is a real grind. Everything is a hassle: government, banking, visas, lawyers, logistics, medical, education, internet, business culture/negotiations, etc. It's not cheap anymore either. Personally I couldn't live in most of the country due to lack of nature, pollution, cold winters. I've lived in Shanghai, Qingdao, various parts of Yunnan, Shenzhen and Zhuhai. Don't get me wrong though, China is fascinating, represents and allows you to better understand a massive chunk of humanity, and has some of the best history, nature and food on the planet. Happy to answer any specific questions.
chchyayay 8y ago
I'm an American that has been working at an American company in China for the last year. I'm ethnically Chinese and can speak okay (HSK5 - HSK6) Chinese. Overall, it's been a negative experience but I don't regret at least giving it a shot. -Even in multinational companies people are in the office for much longer hours than in the west. However, a lot of that time is on wechat, super long lunches and who knows what. -My compensation is a bit more than half as much I was making in the US but my taxes and living costs are much much lower. I can save almost as much as I used to. If you get a job in China, make sure to really understand your pay structure and tax implication. Your taxes could either be super high or super low depending on the structure. -Pollution is awful. It's really oppressive some days and you just don't want to go outside. -Chinese ability is a must. Basically all my technical discussions are in Chinese. -The 差不多 (good enough) mentality is exhausting sometimes. Even in tier 1 cities, everything is falling apart and looks like crap up close. -I have a mix of foreigner and Chinese friends. When I first came here, I was super insistent on only hanging out with Chinese people to get the "real experience" but realistically as a westerner there is too much of a culture gap. Most Chinese people that I've met are very very focused on work and their income. -Chinese people are pretty nice individually when you get to know them, but it's a different story in public. Cutting in line, shoving their way, watching shows full volume on their phone in the subway, riding their bikes into you, etc... -Phone usage is crazy here. It seems like nearly everyone is glued to their phones at all times. -Dating is really easy (if you're a man). I haven't heard this mentioned in this thread yet, but it is a big reason why a lot of expats move to China. However, I would tread very carefully. I wouldn't recommend starting a serious relationship here unless you're in love with China and are in it for the long haul. Also, casual dating isn't very common here so girls get attached very quickly. If you're planning on just dating around, you'll feel awful eventually unless you're a sociopath. -Red tape everywhere. It seems difficult to do nearly everything, especially if you're a foreigner. I definitely wouldn't live in China for the long term, but it's been a pretty interesting experience. Do it for a year or two for the experience and then GTFO.

wolco 8y ago

From Finland? Why bother when you have such a high quality of living.

refurb 8y ago
Apparently not when it comes to money and opportunity!
- koala_man 8y ago
  I mean, it's true. (Norway, though) The Nordic countries are probably the best places in the world to be average or below, but I'm willing to claim that the US is better for the top 10%.
  - adventured 8y ago
    You could safely draw that line at the top 25%, in terms of the US being competitive. If you look at income, wealth, employment, education, healthcare, life expectancy, infant mortality, there's a very large difference in the US between the 25% line and the median. If you don't think you can get into that top 25% bracket in the US, pick another country if you can like Canada, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Austria, etc. 40%-45% of the world's millionaires reside in that top 25%. Full-time employment will get you $80,000+ at the 25% bracket cut-off. Healthcare is broadly high quality and easily accessible for the top 25%. Economic opportunities are abundant and unemployment is always very low outside of deep recessions. You can also hit that $80,000 income line in dozens of cities, depending on profession (much easier in tech, energy, healthcare, banking/finance). Household net wealth skyrockets from about $100,000 at the median to $425k-$450k at the 25% line (and to $1.2 million at the 10% line). Just consider software developers in the US. 1.25 million of them with a median income of $103,000 for 2017 (per the BLS). So there's probably ~650,000 software developers in the US earning six figures for 2019. That's more than the rest of the world combined. The biggest downside to being in the US if you're in the top 25%, is that many of our largest cities aren't nearly as livable or safe as those in other developed nations. This also assumes a city to income match, where you're not making $90,000 trying to live well in San Francisco or New York (in which case you're generally going to struggle).

dang 8y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

driverdan 8y ago
I was interested in genuine responses, not in starting a flamewar.
- dang 8y ago
  I believe you, but intention isn't enough. How you frame such a question has the largest impact on what responses emerge. The combo of a low-information comment, a pejorative, and a divisive topic is going to be a flamebait cocktail regardless of anything else.
  - tomcam 8y ago
    Sorry to bother you, but this is frustrating. I think I may be a little on the spectrum, so please take my statement literally. The comment by the parent was undeniably true. It really is an authoritarian dictatorship (Source: obvious common sense and also my extended family is all Chinese). Source: obvious common sense and also my beloved extended family is mostly Chinese). I feel like the question was framed properly and I can’t attribute any of those traits to it – pejorative, divisive, flame bait. Your thoughts?
    - dang 8y ago
      You're not bothering me! But I only saw this reply by accident. If you want to be sure to get an answer you should email us instead (hn@ycombinator.com). Just keep in mind that we can't always reply right away. There are two problems. First, the term "authoritarian dictatorship" is not as well-defined as you seem to suggest, and carries a pejorative meaning which is separate from any factual information it does contain. Second, the comment was too short to convey much information in its own right. When people post pejorative, low-information comments about inflammatory topics, that's flamebait, whether or not they intended it that way. I'm sure that driverdan had no malicious intent, but intent doesn't protect a dry forest from dropped matches. I can understand why you would be frustrated by this response if you look at the comment as an atomic, standalone thing. But comments on internet forums aren't standalone. They're prefixes of the subthreads that follow from them, and commenters are partly responsible for what follows from their comments. Certainly they are responsible for following the site guidelines, which distill much of what we've learned over the years about how to comment in ways that don't lead to degenerate subthreads.
      - tomcam 8y ago
        Thanks very much for the answer. I need to rethink things.

scarmig 8y ago

Note to readers: this is not a mere rhetorical flourish. Falun Gong practitioners are likely killed in large numbers (thousands) for the purpose of harvesting their organs, though obviously evidence of this is tightly controlled. Some facts that increase the plausibility of the claim: 1) China has among the shortest wait times in the world for organ transplants 2) China has little public engagement for voluntary organ donation. There were 373,536 registered organ donors nationally at the end of 2017. That number of donors would equate to 29 donations annually, going by US rates. Let's be generous and grant that 100 or so donations come from a voluntary donor. 3) Officially, the government of the PRC says that around 10k organ transplants happen per year. Most outside observers claim this is a significant undercount, but let's go with it. 4) The PRC claims that most of its organs come from voluntary donors. Where do the rest of the organs come from? There's a huge discrepancy here. You can find plenty of people who attest that they've witnessed them coming from Falun Gong practitioners. I don't find individual accounts of anything that compelling, but they're easy enough to find. Plus, any mention of any particular individual would bring in a large number of accounts dismissing and attacking that individual, derailing the conversation. If someone responds complaining that a lot of this is ultimately speculative: sure. The government of the PRC could easily address and dismiss this issue by offering transparency into its organ donation system. This is low risk and shouldn't undermine the PRC's informational priorities, as there's no reason for it to be a heavily politicized area of discussion (aside potentially from some class issues involving Western medical tourists). For a well sourced overview, see https://www.chinaorganharvest.org/app/uploads/2018/06/COHRC-2018-Report.pdf https://www.chinaorganharvest.org/app/uploads/2018/06/COHRC-... . Yes, the domain name seems sensationalist, but it's appropriate.

jaxbot 8y ago

That's a great point about access to Shenzhen from HK. How's the language barrier been? Have you had to learn both Canto and Mando and read both simplified and traditional? Is there a distinct advantage to living on one side of the border over the other?

zukunftsalick 8y ago
HK has uncensored and fast internet. The language barrier can be a issue but English is still widely spoken, even in remote areas of HK like where I live. I know enough Canto for numbers, food and the rare times I get a taxi. I can't ready anything though. There's a big question mark as 2047 looms closer, which is till when China promised to keep HK the way it is now (capitalism, different currency, open, legal system and so on).
- philsnow 8y ago
  > There's a big question mark as 2047 looms closer, which is till when China promised to keep HK the way it is now (capitalism, different currency, open, legal system and so on). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests They're not going to wait until 2047. Already many (most?) elementary schools in HK speak Mandarin instead of Cantonese.
  - ralph84 8y ago
    Some elementary schools also have a non-trivial number of mainland children who cross the border every day for school. Birth tourism for mainlanders was big in HK (they've cracked down on it now) because Chinese born in HK automatically get HK permanent residence.
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    > Already many (most?) elementary schools in HK speak Mandarin instead of Cantonese. Mandarin is far easier to learn and speak than Cantonese
    - philsnow 8y ago
      I don't know what you're getting at. Shouldn't they learn Spanish or something because it's "easier"?
      - chaostheory 8y ago
        It sounded like you lament transition the from Cantonese to Mandarin and you make it seem like a bad thing, near equivalent to the loss of rights and freedoms. I don't feel that way. Sarcasm aside, Spanish is not easier for Chinese people since barely anyone speaks it in Asia other than nouns in the Philippines. Mandarin is easier because it's already the primary language for most Chinese people and not just the mainland. It's also generally easier to speak and understand compared to Cantonese. Having one standard language is an advantage vs having a million "dialects". There are many bad things about the HK handover. Standardizing on Mandarin is not one of them.
        philsnow 8y ago
        Language attrition is a real thing, and it's terrible. Erasing the language erases part of the culture that makes Hong Kong unique and interesting. It's a poverty to do so.
echevil 8y ago
The hard part living in HK for a lot of people is real estate price. It's extremely expensive either to rent or buy apartments. Lot of people live in apartments less than 200 sqr feet, and the average living space per person is less than 100 sqr feet. Moreover, Shenzhen is one of China's tech capitals while HK is mostly finance.

educationdata 8y ago

A) Parenting. You will mostly have no parenting on your own in China. Tech companies will make you work long hours. It is not uncommon that when you finished work and back home, your kid is already asleep. When you leave home early to catch the train, your kid is still asleep. It is not a joke but many Chinese young couples only see their kids during weekend, even they live together. You think leaving your kid to your parents 5 days per week is good? Noooooooooo B) Medicare. Every time your kid gets fever: IV. Your parents just love it. They think it is the best. Chinese people love to have their kids get blood test, X-ray for just cough... Children's hospitals are crowded by (grand)parents and kids who simply have cold (see pictures and story http://www.sohu.com/a/212568582_407108 http://www.sohu.com/a/212568582_407108). Most Chinese people (including educated middle class) do not understand get cold is not because of cold, it is because of virus. C) Also everybody knows: the highly competitive education system is a huge burden on kids and parents. It is common to spend lots of money to purchase apartment at good school district (xue qu fang). And many parents do this for kids going to elementary school, middle school, high school... Middle class life is not easy.

muzani 8y ago
A story on the this point - I worked with some colleagues from a giant China company. One of them just had his firstborn and was deployed outside the country for 3 months. The other also had small children and was also deployed outside his country for months. These guys were also the first in the office, last ones out. I doubt a Western company would be as eager to split a parent from their babies, but this was a common thing, especially when you're the linchpin.
jason_slack 8y ago
To your point B - When I was in China for an extended work obligation I made sure that I told people I was diabetic because lots of food has sugar in it. My co-workers kept asking me daily if I needed any medical treatment for my diabetes and one of them could take me to a clinic. Even on weekends co-workers would ping me to ask. It was very sweet of them but a bit comical.

yorwba 8y ago
How did you land your first job? I'd assume that Chinese companies won't easily take the risk to sponsor a visa for a foreign graduate without relevant experience, especially if they don't speak the language (edit: I see you added a note, so feel free to ignore that last part).
- cepp 8y ago
  I have a lot of experience with the visa process...fortunately I had pretty good Chinese before I began my job search. I was lucky enough to have help from a pretty notable entrepreneur in Shanghai (a friend of a friend) who sent my resume around. The interview process is very slow in China (also recruiting happens at different times than the West) and so about 4 months and a bunch of interviews later I decided on Video++ in Shanghai. Unlike the US the visa process is very straightforward. It works as a points-based system in a number of categories, where if you hit the point minimum (overall of 60 I believe) then you get your visa. So once you get an offer it's not particularly hard for the company, but smaller ones will certainly be more averse given the time and expertise it takes to produce the documentation to provide to the consulate. N.B.: I'd add that a lot of Chinese companies are intrigued (not necessarily the right word) by foreign candidates. You'll stand out in the pool. So if you apply through normal means, or even reach out they'll pick you out and talk to you. It depends a lot on the company and the timing but in my experience, it's been far easier than doing interviews in the US.
adelie 8y ago
> Given that I'm 22, and have spent the majority of my internship/working career in China i assume this is a typo? otherwise i'm a little concerned about a culture where a 22-year-old has that much work experience, haha. curious if you could talk a little more about the experience of finding a job in china, and what differences there might be from applying for jobs in the west. and not sure if you have any experience with this - there's quite a bit in this thread about it being difficult if you're not ethnically chinese, but is there discrimination against overseas ethnic chinese who are not familiar with the language or culture? for context - i'm thinking about working in china for a few years, primarily to build fluency and an understanding of the culture. i'm western-born; my mandarin is 'pretty good' but it's obvious from my accent and the way i put together sentences that i'm not native. i'm concerned that i might not be afforded the same leniency in misunderstanding the language or cultural norms that non-chinese westerners might receive.
drstewart 8y ago
Funny because almost everything you described there sounds terrible to me. I can't imagine trading being able to cycle or access uncensored internet for the ability to rent an umbrella.