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Lax oversight, dubious testing in water tanks pose health risks
- oftenwrong 8y agoThe city publishes the inspection results on their data portal: https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Health/Rooftop-Drinking-Water-Tank-Inspection-Results/gjm4-k24g https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Health/Rooftop-Drinking-Water-... I found this article and data set on Data is Plural: https://tinyletter.com/data-is-plural https://tinyletter.com/data-is-plural
- oneplane 8y agoReading this gives me the creeps and a whole lot of 'no shit, sherlock'. This is third-world kind of stuff. How can this not be solved over there by now? Privately hosted rooftop water tanks? Really? Does health and personal excellence mean so little? At this point, in my area it's required by law to have a hydrofoor when your building is 13 meters tall (or taller). No water tower allowed, and skipping the entire thing isn't allowed either. In the USA that would probably be regarded as 'nanny state', but this is a typical case where you cannot trust a company or installer or building owner to do this right by default, hurting basically everyone else. I'm not sure what hydrofoor translates to, but it's basically a pressuriser, pump, buffer tank in one, that you have in the technical room of your building, that is inspected by the water company which is inspected by the 'watershap' (not sure what that translates to), which is inspected by the government. It takes a whole lot of people doing it wrong on purpose before that chain fails and you get bad water.
- umvi 8y ago> In the USA that would probably be regarded as 'nanny state' Maybe, but... building codes and regulations != nanny state in my opinion. Nanny state is more like banning soda, supersize meals at restaurants, etc. to protect people from themselves. "Sorry, but you can't be trusted to make good choices about what you put in your body, so we will make laws that force you to make better choices"
- angry_octet 8y agoI actually see both of your examples as instances of the same technique, and I wouldn't call either nanny state, but sensible policy. I'm more concerned with corporate control, especially re health care. I know people who have to walk in circles during meetings because their step count is too low for their weight, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
- umvi 8y agoIt's only "sensible" because you happened to agree with the policies I chose. Nanny state (again, in my opinion) is infringing on the individual's right to choose. Why should I, a skinny fit person with self control, not be allowed to buy a supersized meal after running a half marathon? I'm being punished because of the choices of the obese. You might not like nanny state regulations as much if it impacted something important to you - like limiting internet usage for example. "People have no self control when it comes to internet and especially social media usage, new ISP regulations will disconnect your internet temporarily if it detects you have been using social media for too many consecutive hours"
- majormajor 8y agoYou can't avoid the choices of others. Pay now, pay later (for instance, in higher health insurance or tax payments), but it's naive to complain about having being impacted at all.
- jplayer01 8y agoGovernment exists to infringe on individual rights. You're basically arguing for abolishing the whole thing. Consequently, "They're infringing on my rights" is a circular, pointless argument, unless you really want to just talk about how all government is bad.
- angry_octet 8y agoYou can buy two meals if you like. The policy applies a cost disincentive to unhealthy eating, an approach which has proven success as a disincentive for nicotine addiction and alcohol consumption. Since society pays a steep price for the pandemic level of obesity it is justified to apply a modest price signal. And while the effect on each individual is small, the benefit for some individuals is enormous -- they will avoid the effects of obesity, like type II diabetes, and live longer lives. Your tiny soda sacrifice will save lives. In contrast, obesity penalties at the level of some insurance companies is really extreme, to the extent of controlling their daily actions, and leading them to seriously consider use of dangerous weight loss drugs (amphetamines basically) and major gastric surgery. There is no need to construct an enormous and improbable straw man if you want 'nanny state' regulations, there are plenty of examples. For example, alcohol sales policy. Why can you buy lite beer in many places in the US, but not full strength beer or wine or spirits? It isn't because of cheap drunks -- they are cheap and buying in bulk, a $40 bottle of wine isn't going to interest them. It is a hodge podge of local and state govt regulation with little tangible benefit. The difference between good and bad regulations is often whether they are based on evidence and statistical re-evaluation, or knee-jerk politics. Well considered policy will identify groups that suffer detriment. I can't identify a group that will be harmed by discouraging discounted soda.
- vonmoltke 8y agoI don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. You are expressing shock at "[p]rivately hosted rooftop water tanks", then talking about privately-hosted hydrofoors instead. The rooftop tanks are supposed to be inspected annually by the city as well, but the inspections aren't happening. I don't see how the situation would be any better with this hydrofoor. Just as note as well, in US cities the government generally is the water company, so we don't have the multiple layers you describe. There is some oversight of lower levels of government by higher levels, but that tends to be more auditory than inspectitory.
- keeganjw 8y agoThe New York Times did a great video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_9RLbRZJr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_9RLbRZJr0 It's crazy that this is allowed to continue.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoGet it in front of the right people and it won’t be allowed to continue. Don’t let a crisis go to waste.
- jrockway 8y agoI don't foresee much happening. Local politics in New York has very little to do with helping your constituents and appears to be some jumping off point for greater things. De Blasio wants to be President. Cuomo wants to be President. You don't become President by being tough on water towers. Therefore, I predict nothing will happen. (Cuomo might do something if he can figure out how to name it after his dad, though.)
- ams6110 8y agoI'd be pretty surprised if this issue isn't present in any older city with tall buildings. I see rooftop water tanks in many cities.
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- dwighttk 8y agoI wonder why they still use wood.
- vonmoltke 8y agoWhat do you mean, "still"? The wooden tanks are decades old.
- stronglikedan 8y agoMike Row built a new one from wood relatively recently on Dirty Jobs. IIRC, only the bands holding it together were metal.
- vonmoltke 8y agoI'm not up on NYC code, since I don't live in the city, but I wonder if it was a rebuild of an existing wooden tank under a "repair in kind" exemption. I have seen shit like that before, such as codes that allow knocking down all but one wall of a building and still calling it a "remodel" (and thus preserving grandfathered code exemptions).
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y agoMy favorite one is keeping one wall, building three, knocking down the last wall and huraah... still a 'remodel'
- vonmoltke 8y agoCode hacking like that is almost a sport in South Florida.
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y agoLiterally where I saw it... Wynwood in Miami.
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- hguant 8y agoNew York City officials are lazy, corrupt, or just don't care, and are happily committing perjury so they don't have to do their job. This is not a new story.
- reustle 8y ago> Another city agency, which is responsible for the tank, has certified year after year that the entire structure, including the roof, is sound and that the tank has no sanitary defects, dismissing its own 2015 report of E. coli in the water as a “clerical error.” Would this be considered a criminal offence? Even if so, unlikely that they would be charged I'm guessing.
- 420codebro 8y agoI would refuse to sign off. Imagine if someone got sick and died because you lied your ass off by cutting corners?
- gerbilly 8y agoThe tank with the missing roof means people in that building are drinking what amounts to surface water. Why on earth are they still using wood? By now I would have expected them to have steel tanks with a steel roof on them, you know something a rodent can't just gnaw its way into. I'm glad I read this. Now whenever I go to NY, I won't drink any water without having boiled it for three minutes first.
- ttul 8y agoI had a water-borne illness from drinking (unbeknownst) surface water. It was utterly horrid. Cramping every morning. Always having to run for the toilet. Turns out I had not one but two parasitic infections. There is a reason water is treated and that water systems are inspected. I will never take water for granted again.
- LeftTurnSignal 8y ago/incoming rant but related to your story It sucks so bad. My brother and I got parasites from water at some restaurant in GA. Down there they were able to help him, but up in the north, the Drs have no clue on how to deal with parasites. The most help I got was the Dr calling the pharmacy for me. So my brother got meds from his Dr, sent them up here to get rid of the parasites. Now I'm dealing with some bacterial infections that no one can figure out. I asked to have the same test done that my brother had that found all his issues relating to this. They replied with "Yes, we can do that test." Then they sent me to CT and for a colonoscopy which took 2 months before I could get in... all the while they couldn't "give advice" because they "don't know what my system is like." I'm seeing the 4th opinion next week. It's been 4 1/2 months now, so maybe this one will care. This is with the "good insurance" I keep hearing about.
- imtringued 8y agoHow much did you have to pay for that colonoscopy? Good insurance can't make doctors better but it can lower the costs for you.
- beobab 8y agoI'm pretty sure that in the game "Prototype", the water tanks were breeding grounds for the weirdy alien looking creatures. It was fun to fly around in a helicopter spotting them (by heat signature) and blowing them up. I had no idea they were real features in New York.
- Eric_WVGG 8y agoOh, they’re real features all right, I live right underneath one... but I had no idea they were functional! I thought they were just odd holdovers from a hundred years ago that landlords were too cheap or lazy to tear down...
- moneytide1 8y agoEvery time I hit a severe bump on the road that is supposed to be a repaired pothole, I think of the workers who were assigned to that particular pothole. I think of all the times I've heard workers say "That's good enough, I'm ready to go to lunch early." Because of a few people's low standard of perfection, now tens and thousands of people must experience a slight turmoil in that spot over the next decade, slightly increasing wear/tear on their car. Apply this attitude to storage of a fundamental resource: safe drinking water. There is negligence because people are in a hurry, or because things become so routine that the sanitation workers don't even pay attention anymore. Personally, I drink all my water exclusively from a well. Untouched by human "sanitation" efforts. A few weeks ago I forgot to drive out to the country to refill my container with this well water, and had to drink from a city tap for about a week. I started getting ulcers all over my mouth. Perhaps this was coincidental, but it is the only time in the past few years that I have consistently drank city water over a sustained period. Chlorine, fluoride, who knows what else. I will say that NYC is supposed to have some of the best water in the nation because their reservoir is fresh snow melt. But any water kept in one place too long will be contaminated. “The idea is that flowing water never goes stale, so just keep on flowing.” -Bruce Lee
- oftenwrong 8y ago>any water kept in one place too long will be contaminated. Clean water stored in clean, sealed containers will not spontaneously become contaminated.
- DanBC 8y ago...for very specific definitions of clean water, clean container, and sealed.
- Scoundreller 8y agoWho doesn’t sterilize their water for 90 minutes at 15psi anyway?
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- docker_up 8y agoThat is absolutely disgusting, but given the horrible state the system is in, why have we not heard of larger, more widespread disease outbreaks? You would think it would be happening all the time with the system in such horrible shape.
- empath75 8y agoTurns out the human immune system works pretty well.
- bluntfang 8y agoYa know, I never understood why so many people today overlook the conditions that the human body had to endure before the last 100 years or so. I have a family member that washes avocados before eating them and doesn't want to sleep at a KOA campground for fear of being eaten by bears. Baffling.
- gerbilly 8y agoYeah, I wouldn't overestimate how good our immune systems is at protecting us from contaminated water.[1] Where I grew up, at the start of the 20th century many children died in infancy from contaminated water and milk. Also the gut is an 'immune privileged' part of the body, meaning that the immune system does not attempt to keep it sterile like the rest of the body.[2] We need a healthy micro-biome for digestion and to synthesize vitamins etc, but this means that it's also relatively easy to get sick from contaminated water and food. [1] The World Health Organization says that every year more than 3.4 million people die as a result of water related diseases, making it the leading cause of disease and death around the world. [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16972898 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16972898
- oftenwrong 8y agoNew York had a big scandal related to "swill milk" in the late 19th - early 20th centuries. Distillery waste was fed to sick and dying cows kept in overcrowded, filthy lots. The milk and whatever dirty, contaminated water that got mixed in was adulterated with various substances to help mask the low quality. Many children died from consuming it. A very dark chapter of human history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal
- microcolonel 8y agoNew York City is expensive, insolvent, and corrupt; it boggles the mind to hear that people still bother to live and do business there. If you have the income to live in a New York City high rise, you should have the pride not to pay some scumbag to live in one with an unmitigated biohazard on the roof. And of course, you and I both know that you'll be the first and only person in New York City who cared whether you were drinking clean water or not.
- CPLX 8y ago> it boggles the mind to hear that people still bother to live and do business there It's actually the largest city in the country, so clearly there's a demand for it. Which might have to do with it being the most important and vibrant city in the history of global civilization. When reality is inconsistent with logic, it's time to check your assumptions.
- insertcredit 8y agoI've been all over the US, NYC is a dump of colossal proportions, a train wreck happening in (maybe not so) slow motion. I live in Europe and parts of Manhattan reminded me of the third world. Hype / reality distortion have a lot to do with NYC being perceived as "vibrant" or "most important".
- 420codebro 8y agoEverything is anchored by the financial district. Take that economic engine away and you have a shit-hole city that would very quickly fall into disarray.
- someguydave 8y agoI've vacationed in new york city and I agree. Even the "nice parts" are crowded and shabby.
- bsenftner 8y agoAround 2004 I was exposed to an opportunity to become an EPA Lobbyist for a company in the fuel and water storage tank construction and maintenance portion of the construction industry. The ease of the job, meaning the complete corporate capture of that portion of the EPA, was so comprehensive the Lobbyist position was eliminated during my exposure to the opportunity. Industry dictates any regulation, and don't really bother with any enforcement. This was during a portion of my career when I considered leaving tech, and the intentional disregard of any ethics or public safety is one of the factors behind my return to tech. Needless to say, I get all household water from a private source, and I do not trust the crops in any areas with underground fuel storage sharing the water table with nearby farms.
- mcguire 8y agoFortunately, the free market will correct those problems. Consumers who find water quality important will not consume it, possibly by moving elsewhere, and force the company to fix it or go out of business. Also fortunately, the tech industry is supremely concerned with ethics and public safety.
- bsenftner 8y agoAs far as I can tell, it has become exponentially worse.
- cesarb 8y agoWould filtering and/or boiling the water be enough against that kind of contamination? (We learn from childhood that you should only drink filtered or boiled water; I wouldn't feel comfortable drinking water directly from the plumbing, precisely because you never know how clean the water tank and the pipes are.)
- mcguire 8y agoWhere are you from?
- cesarb 8y agoI'm from the southeast of Brazil. Nearly every place has a water filter, separate from the normal faucet, for the drinking water. The water tank on buildings and houses is normally made of plastic, not wood (though in some buildings, it's made of concrete and part of the building's structure), but you never know if it has been left uncovered, or how recently it has been cleaned (and the plumbing, as far as I know, is never directly cleaned).
- newnewpdro 8y agoPlumbing in general is never cleaned and it isn't a problem as the water is moving. The main issue with water tanks is the water is stagnant and in warm/hot climates ideal for life. Nowadays it's very easy to add a UV light to the interior of your water tanks to keep the interior sterile.
- AlgorithmicTime 8y agoWell plumbing is supposed to be a closed system, so it should not need cleaning.
- beamatronic 8y agoAnyone here from New York and could comment on the local reaction to this? They say it’s something in the water that makes the bagels better, maybe it’s the water tanks.
- hydrogenglow 8y agoWell, this is terrifying! #gettingawaterfilter
- johnkt 8y agoCan someone explain why water towers on each building are required in a first-world city? I genuinely don't understand. Is the public water supply so unreliable that you need to have a buffer?