9 ms·

Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

89 points by clumsysmurf 8y ago

enraged_camel 8y ago
I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this is way too small for stiches, let's just use glue." So the ER nurse handed him a skin glue, and he used it to close the wound. After a few minutes, the wound was closed. I was prescribed antibiotics (kitchen knife, in case it had salmonella etc.) and sent my way. Three months later, the bill arrived: $2,600. That isn't a typo. Two thousand six hundred god damn dollars for skin glue on a small cut on the finger. My insurance successfully negotiated it down, but still, the audacity of charging four figures for five minutes of medical care is just absolutely insane. We desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  Interesting logical jump from "medical facilities overcharge" to "we desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country." Single payer is certainly one possible solution, but it's not the only feasible solution, despite conclusions that availability bias might lead us to. I'm curious: what was the final price after insurance negotiated on your behalf?
  - tapland 8y ago
    You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.
    - i_am_proteus 8y ago
      Cf. the insurance company negotiating on the above poster's behalf, and my curiosity about the result of those negotiations.
      - tapland 8y ago
        Well. A for profit entity can hardly be regarded as bargaining on your behalf. They are bargaining on behalf of their revenue. The difference between what they negotiate and what they charge you is their entire business.
      - colanderman 8y ago
        That's if you have insurance, which - surprise - is only reasonably priced if you are part of a group (e.g. employer) which can negotiate on your behalf.
    - rubicon33 8y ago
      Ah, so then that's what this boils down to? The high cost of health care is a symptom of capitalism run a muck? We're being charged these exorbitant rates simply because they can get away with it? If only we had a single payer that was able to negotiate, these costs would evaporate over night? Not sure it's that simple... Although, in a way it does kind of make sense. Unlike consumer goods (television, cars, etc.), one's health is something they're likely willing to break-the-bank for. So without any kind of restraint, I could see costs getting out of control. The hospital is focused on making as much money as they can, and the consumer is focused on preserving their health. If one doesn't have their health after all, what do they have? Add an ever increasing demand (baby boomers are aging rapidly) and suddenly, things begin to look much worse for the demand side of the equation.
      - tapland 8y ago
        > Not sure it's that simple... There aren't that many countries that pay as much as the us from public funds (two, see my previous link) or out of pocket (none). The problem is localized to the US.
  - TomMckenny 8y ago
    Any other system is going to be written by lobbyist relying on complexity for cover. If consumers had as much political strength on capitol hill as the medical industry, another system could be worked out. But they don't. The window was closed on that option with Citizens United.
  - enraged_camel 8y ago
    I think the final amount I had to pay was around $1,150.
    - i_am_proteus 8y ago
      Thanks! That seems high, although I suspect the pricing has something to do with opportunity cost for the hospital. ER docs are limited, and he wasn't available to assist with [serious life-threatening trauma] while he was gluing your finger up. I had something similar (knife slip, a few stitches) come out to like $350 at urgent care. I paid with (literal) cash.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  If I went to the ER every time my girlfriends insisted on it I'd be much poorer today, and no more alive or healthier for it.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  The pricing for medical bills is always insane but hospitals routinely take much less. I don't know the purpose of these "shock bills" that are never actually the real price. But I've seen the actual price paid be as low as 5-10% of these insane bills.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  I sliced a banana peel of skin off my finger on glass by accident. 3 hours of various stages of waiting rooms after triage and I had been x-rayed and sewn up and sent home. Cost me $8 in parking a $2 in Tim Hortons coffee. I felt an immense level of pride in the taxes I pay (43% income tax before deductions) when it clicked that anyone who walked in would have gotten this same service.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    3 hour of wait time is bearable but i'm really sorry that you had to spend $2 on that shitty Timmies coffee.
    - cozzyd 8y ago
      Indeed, served unbearably hot so you don't notice the taste. Give me dunks any day over that.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      I'll be honest, it was actually a hot chocolate and I love their hot chocolate when it's scalding hot. I sip it really slowly in a weird "aeration" move that mixes with air. It reminds me warmly of 6am hockey practices when I was a kid.
- lisper 8y ago
  You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.
  - crimsonalucard 8y ago
    No none of that overhead was needed. He was giving them free money. That's what this system is more akin too.
    - lisper 8y ago
      Please go back and re-read what I wrote, paying particular attention to "might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day".
      - crimsonalucard 8y ago
        Oh, I didn't notice that my bad. So like the hospital is prepared to do open heart surgery on me, I should pay for that just in case I need it when I go to the hospital for a common cold. Makes 100% sense.
  - 7952 8y ago
    That would make sense if it was a fixed charge regardless of treatment. But if you did need those extra facilities they would charge you even more!
    - lisper 8y ago
      Sure, the overhead charges are spread proportionally according to usage, not equally among all patients. I see nothing wrong with that.
  - onion2k 8y ago
    If I go to an Apple store and buy a mouse would it be reasonable for them to add on $300 for keeping iMacs in stock just in case I'd wanted one?
- ams6110 8y ago
  Well for a minor cut you went to a facility that has staff and equipment available 24x7 to deal with multiple concurrent heart attacks, strokes, major injury and trauma. Next time wash it out, bandage it up and wait for cheaper treatment if you still need it.
anoncoward111 8y ago
And it is entirely because the powers that be have rigged the market so that they can charge whatever they want. How have they accomplished this? First, they set strict quotas on who can be a doctor. Then, they set strict quotas on who can offer what medical goods and products. Then, they strap everyone up with student and business debt. I'm not saying it is the correct way or not, but there's a reason that in other countries you can buy over the counter things that you can't in the USA.
- bryan11 8y ago
  Not only can they charge what they want, it's also almost impossible to compare prices or find out what something costs in advance. With no competition, medical providers may charge what they wish.
- scarface74 8y ago
  There is something more direct. When Bush signed the prescription drug add on for Medicare, it was made illegal for Medicare to negotiate rates - even though the VA can.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  Every functional society regulates who can be a doctor and who can produce medical goods and services, that really isn’t a problem. It can probably be helpful to try and look for differences between countries as opposed to just going for a libertarian end-run. Problems with the US system are an out-of-control pricing structure due to fragmentation of bargaining power, insane patenting laws which allow evergreening strategies, ideological opposition to functional and prove reforms, and good old fashioned cronyism. The need to regulate the healthcare space is unavoidable, but simply bending over in the name of a free market that isn’t free is quite avoidable. The nature of for example, pharmaceuticals as a natural monopoly is acknowledged and confronted in those countries which offer OTC or generic options where the US doesn’t. The need for a strong bargaining position to negotiate pricing has been consistently undermined in the US.
  - rayiner 8y ago
williesleg 8y ago
Because of Obamacare and federal health care, there is no longer true competition to drive down prices. Heck, I've got health insurance, I always go to the most expensive places. Why not?
tapland 8y ago
Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all prescribed medications (with up to 75% discounts before reaching those $250)[2]. This makes treating my Crohn's + MEN-1 an issue of going to visits, doing surguries and scans, and picking up my medications at the local pharmacy (I order in their app since my medications are rare) every three months. [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-sweden-canada/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-hea... [1] https://www.1177.se/Stockholm/Regler-och-rattigheter/Hogkostnadsskydd/ https://www.1177.se/Stockholm/Regler-och-rattigheter/Hogkost... [2] https://www.apoteket.se/mina-recept-inloggad/mer-om-hogkostnadsskydd/ https://www.apoteket.se/mina-recept-inloggad/mer-om-hogkostn...
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  >>Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. Americans don't actually have an objection to paying more for healthcare. What they do have an objection to is paying for other people's healthcare. America is a deeply individualistic society, and the idea of one's tax dollars being spent to benefit others lies at the root of most people's objections to single-payer, or anything else that smells like "socialism".
  - raesene9 8y ago
    It's interesting you say that, I've heard that line of argument before but it is quite puzzling. Are you suggesting that a person on Low income in the US doesn't object to paying more than they have for their own healthcare (i.e. that they wouldn't like that healthcare to be cheaper) That seems a bit counter-intuitive, as usually people don't like being bankrupt.
    - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
bellerose 8y ago
I met a guy at university who suffered a car crash and where he wasn't at fault. Guy spent a month in a hospital bed and now has trouble walking. Owes 50k+ in medical bills and doesn't want to declare bankruptcy. He was in CS so he will probably survive but I just feel it's completely unnecessary that he suffer the added stress in life of owing finances for medical treatment. Specifically when he had no control over the accident and is in no way to blame. I left America for Canada because morally the country makes me sick.
lordnacho 8y ago
I remember when I heard about my uncle passing away in America. He had the symptoms this lady had. For some reason he didn't go to the doctor, and it really puzzled me. At the time I'd put it down to inherited stubbornness, because my dad had had the same thing happen as well and would only go to the hospital because I forced him to. Now I'm wondering whether my uncle was simply scared of the bill. I found out he'd told colleagues he was feeling numb on one side and had blurry vision, yet still didn't go to the hospital. My uncle died, it was more serious that he thought. My dad survived and still lives. In Denmark you rarely think about the cost, but rather the queue to see a doctor (if you have something minor, you might wait a long time). The doctors knew what was going on immediately, so it wasn't a long wait. Is it common for blue collar workers to be without health insurance in the US? I don't want to ask my cousins about it, too painful and it would probably trigger a big rant about healthcare. Also, if your healthcare is tied to your job, what do you do between jobs? Just be really careful when chopping the onions?
- raincom 8y ago
  If one is a blue collar worker for a large corp (not a small biz), he/she usually have a health insurance. However, it comes with lots of co payments, out-of-network payments, etc; this can ruin a person financially. Many employees of small businesses don't have insurance or super crappy insurance with lots of copayments. How about Uber drivers? They don't have any health insurance.
- bb88 8y ago
  > Is it common for blue collar workers to be without health insurance in the US? Yes. More so now than in the 1980's say. Collective bargaining doesn't really work when a company can just move a factory to Mexico. There's cobra which covers the health insurance gap up to 18 months, but you have to pay the company's rate, not the discounted rate. The downside of it is that it can be rather expensive, and so unemployed people will often forego it.
rayiner 8y ago
I think we should have universal healthcare, but I don’t know how I feel about the “medical bankruptcy” angle. It strikes a chord with the middle/upper middle class readers of the Atlantic because those people fear losing their financial status. But to me, protecting the financial status of middle class people seems like a particularly poor justification for universal health care. Why should the government use tax dollars to keep a middle class person from going bankrupt, instead of giving that money to someone who started at $0 and stayed at $0? You’re a middle class professional and you get unlucky and get cancer, the government will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for your treatment. But if you’re unlucky in a different way, say you are born in the ghetto to poor parents, the government won’t give you hundreds of thousands of dollars. That seems completely backward. Say you raise taxes hundreds of billions of dollars. Is protecting middle class people from being wiped out financially if they have a medical catestrophe really the highest and best use of that money? For about $100 billion you could give every child born into poverty an “inheritance” of $100,000. Wouldn’t that be a better use of the money?
- raesene9 8y ago
  Isn't the best idea to make healthcare affordable/free at point of use for everyone (rich or poor) with the rich contributing more (through taxes) to subsidise the poor. That way no-one gets into medical bankruptcy :)
- lumberingjack 8y ago
  Doctors charge way too much for their services. When's the last time you saw a doctor who was justifiably worried about money? They're all driving around in very nice vehicles, several houses, the best golf clubs you can buy,three months vacation to places most people only dream of. It's the same age old story your loved ones dying and all they care about is getting your last bit of gold for the treatment.
morningmoon 8y ago
- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1] - Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem. [2] Our culture is toxic and unsustainable. Government can't fix this. It's a generational problem that's been growing with each generation. [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/bankrate-65-percent-of-americans-save-little-or-nothing.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/bankrate-65-percent-of-ameri... [2]: https://blog.bcbsnc.com/2014/06/costly-habits-1-5-trillion-looks-like/ https://blog.bcbsnc.com/2014/06/costly-habits-1-5-trillion-l... [3]:
- raesene9 8y ago
  isn't taxation, in this case, a type of government enforced savings :) So the gov. could force people to essentially provide for a level of healthcare for everyone. Also on the Obesity point, if the UK was a US state we would rate somewhere in the middle of the pack on obesity levels. Yet the UK pays far less per capita on healthcare and provides a basic level of healthcare free at point of use (rich people are free to increase that if they want)
  - morningmoon 8y ago
    The bulk of research shows the US spends more on healthcare due to higher prices, not more care. Increasing taxes will not solve anything without some sort of strategy to control prices. One solution is price controls for common, well understood procedures and medications, like most other countries with single-payer. The UK for example, engages in price controls.
- nosianu 8y ago
  On the level of the economy there is no "saving" (ignoring small things like leaving resources under ground for later instead of digging them up now). What is produced now is consumed now, especially services. Governments may keep strategic reserves e.g. of oil or some basic foods but that's outside the economy, that's (obviously) not added to by "saving for retirement" and all the other kinds of "saving" that individuals are encouraged to do. Just think about it for a moment, what it actually means when people "save". The future economy certainly doesn't need that money, it's used in the current economy and not buried underground. Not to mention that money, being completely virtual (which is a good thing IMO), never is a problem - unless the government (or the world) messes up big time (like in the 1930s). Businesses don't need anybody's "savings" either, banks create money (through debt) if a lender, especially a business, has a good plan. So again, just take a moment to think about what it means when everybody is encouraged to "save". One aspect is - do those with any power (and I don't mean this politically, simply that different people have different roles and positions) really want everybody to save? Because if everybody does it the economy goes down. One person's expenses are another person's income. However, having this "you don't save!" sure is great to have to throw into conversations to show "it's your own fault". Of course, that's not the intention why "you must save" is kept, I don't think anybody (of those who are relevant) consciously thinks like that. Overall though "saving" helped lower the government's role and funnel lots of money streams through a thriving and ever increasing financial industry. If the government actually wanted people to consume less they could have achieved that decades ago.
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acconrad 8y ago
Regardless of where you stand on this issue politically, I think what upsets me the most is that we have the means to solve this problem. And hunger. The most basic needs for all humans can be solved: we have enough food to feed everyone. We have enough money and doctors to treat everyone without going destitute. We have more than enough. We choose to not to.

89 points by clumsysmurf 8y ago

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this is way too small for stiches, let's just use glue." So the ER nurse handed him a skin glue, and he used it to close the wound. After a few minutes, the wound was closed. I was prescribed antibiotics (kitchen knife, in case it had salmonella etc.) and sent my way. Three months later, the bill arrived: $2,600. That isn't a typo. Two thousand six hundred god damn dollars for skin glue on a small cut on the finger. My insurance successfully negotiated it down, but still, the audacity of charging four figures for five minutes of medical care is just absolutely insane. We desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country.

i_am_proteus 8y ago
Interesting logical jump from "medical facilities overcharge" to "we desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country." Single payer is certainly one possible solution, but it's not the only feasible solution, despite conclusions that availability bias might lead us to. I'm curious: what was the final price after insurance negotiated on your behalf?
- tapland 8y ago
  You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.
  - i_am_proteus 8y ago
    Cf. the insurance company negotiating on the above poster's behalf, and my curiosity about the result of those negotiations.
    - tapland 8y ago
      Well. A for profit entity can hardly be regarded as bargaining on your behalf. They are bargaining on behalf of their revenue. The difference between what they negotiate and what they charge you is their entire business.
    - colanderman 8y ago
      That's if you have insurance, which - surprise - is only reasonably priced if you are part of a group (e.g. employer) which can negotiate on your behalf.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    Ah, so then that's what this boils down to? The high cost of health care is a symptom of capitalism run a muck? We're being charged these exorbitant rates simply because they can get away with it? If only we had a single payer that was able to negotiate, these costs would evaporate over night? Not sure it's that simple... Although, in a way it does kind of make sense. Unlike consumer goods (television, cars, etc.), one's health is something they're likely willing to break-the-bank for. So without any kind of restraint, I could see costs getting out of control. The hospital is focused on making as much money as they can, and the consumer is focused on preserving their health. If one doesn't have their health after all, what do they have? Add an ever increasing demand (baby boomers are aging rapidly) and suddenly, things begin to look much worse for the demand side of the equation.
    - tapland 8y ago
      > Not sure it's that simple... There aren't that many countries that pay as much as the us from public funds (two, see my previous link) or out of pocket (none). The problem is localized to the US.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  Any other system is going to be written by lobbyist relying on complexity for cover. If consumers had as much political strength on capitol hill as the medical industry, another system could be worked out. But they don't. The window was closed on that option with Citizens United.
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  I think the final amount I had to pay was around $1,150.
  - i_am_proteus 8y ago
    Thanks! That seems high, although I suspect the pricing has something to do with opportunity cost for the hospital. ER docs are limited, and he wasn't available to assist with [serious life-threatening trauma] while he was gluing your finger up. I had something similar (knife slip, a few stitches) come out to like $350 at urgent care. I paid with (literal) cash.
newnewpdro 8y ago
If I went to the ER every time my girlfriends insisted on it I'd be much poorer today, and no more alive or healthier for it.
chrisco255 8y ago
The pricing for medical bills is always insane but hospitals routinely take much less. I don't know the purpose of these "shock bills" that are never actually the real price. But I've seen the actual price paid be as low as 5-10% of these insane bills.
Waterluvian 8y ago
I sliced a banana peel of skin off my finger on glass by accident. 3 hours of various stages of waiting rooms after triage and I had been x-rayed and sewn up and sent home. Cost me $8 in parking a $2 in Tim Hortons coffee. I felt an immense level of pride in the taxes I pay (43% income tax before deductions) when it clicked that anyone who walked in would have gotten this same service.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  3 hour of wait time is bearable but i'm really sorry that you had to spend $2 on that shitty Timmies coffee.
  - cozzyd 8y ago
    Indeed, served unbearably hot so you don't notice the taste. Give me dunks any day over that.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    I'll be honest, it was actually a hot chocolate and I love their hot chocolate when it's scalding hot. I sip it really slowly in a weird "aeration" move that mixes with air. It reminds me warmly of 6am hockey practices when I was a kid.
lisper 8y ago
You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.
- crimsonalucard 8y ago
  No none of that overhead was needed. He was giving them free money. That's what this system is more akin too.
  - lisper 8y ago
    Please go back and re-read what I wrote, paying particular attention to "might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day".
    - crimsonalucard 8y ago
      Oh, I didn't notice that my bad. So like the hospital is prepared to do open heart surgery on me, I should pay for that just in case I need it when I go to the hospital for a common cold. Makes 100% sense.
- 7952 8y ago
  That would make sense if it was a fixed charge regardless of treatment. But if you did need those extra facilities they would charge you even more!
  - lisper 8y ago
    Sure, the overhead charges are spread proportionally according to usage, not equally among all patients. I see nothing wrong with that.
- onion2k 8y ago
  If I go to an Apple store and buy a mouse would it be reasonable for them to add on $300 for keeping iMacs in stock just in case I'd wanted one?
ams6110 8y ago
Well for a minor cut you went to a facility that has staff and equipment available 24x7 to deal with multiple concurrent heart attacks, strokes, major injury and trauma. Next time wash it out, bandage it up and wait for cheaper treatment if you still need it.

anoncoward111 8y ago

And it is entirely because the powers that be have rigged the market so that they can charge whatever they want. How have they accomplished this? First, they set strict quotas on who can be a doctor. Then, they set strict quotas on who can offer what medical goods and products. Then, they strap everyone up with student and business debt. I'm not saying it is the correct way or not, but there's a reason that in other countries you can buy over the counter things that you can't in the USA.

bryan11 8y ago
Not only can they charge what they want, it's also almost impossible to compare prices or find out what something costs in advance. With no competition, medical providers may charge what they wish.
scarface74 8y ago
There is something more direct. When Bush signed the prescription drug add on for Medicare, it was made illegal for Medicare to negotiate rates - even though the VA can.
Pharmakon 8y ago
Every functional society regulates who can be a doctor and who can produce medical goods and services, that really isn’t a problem. It can probably be helpful to try and look for differences between countries as opposed to just going for a libertarian end-run. Problems with the US system are an out-of-control pricing structure due to fragmentation of bargaining power, insane patenting laws which allow evergreening strategies, ideological opposition to functional and prove reforms, and good old fashioned cronyism. The need to regulate the healthcare space is unavoidable, but simply bending over in the name of a free market that isn’t free is quite avoidable. The nature of for example, pharmaceuticals as a natural monopoly is acknowledged and confronted in those countries which offer OTC or generic options where the US doesn’t. The need for a strong bargaining position to negotiate pricing has been consistently undermined in the US.
- rayiner 8y ago

williesleg 8y ago

Because of Obamacare and federal health care, there is no longer true competition to drive down prices. Heck, I've got health insurance, I always go to the most expensive places. Why not?

tapland 8y ago

Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all prescribed medications (with up to 75% discounts before reaching those $250)[2]. This makes treating my Crohn's + MEN-1 an issue of going to visits, doing surguries and scans, and picking up my medications at the local pharmacy (I order in their app since my medications are rare) every three months. [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-sweden-canada/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-hea... [1] https://www.1177.se/Stockholm/Regler-och-rattigheter/Hogkostnadsskydd/ https://www.1177.se/Stockholm/Regler-och-rattigheter/Hogkost... [2] https://www.apoteket.se/mina-recept-inloggad/mer-om-hogkostnadsskydd/ https://www.apoteket.se/mina-recept-inloggad/mer-om-hogkostn...

enraged_camel 8y ago
>>Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. Americans don't actually have an objection to paying more for healthcare. What they do have an objection to is paying for other people's healthcare. America is a deeply individualistic society, and the idea of one's tax dollars being spent to benefit others lies at the root of most people's objections to single-payer, or anything else that smells like "socialism".
- raesene9 8y ago
  It's interesting you say that, I've heard that line of argument before but it is quite puzzling. Are you suggesting that a person on Low income in the US doesn't object to paying more than they have for their own healthcare (i.e. that they wouldn't like that healthcare to be cheaper) That seems a bit counter-intuitive, as usually people don't like being bankrupt.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago

bellerose 8y ago

I met a guy at university who suffered a car crash and where he wasn't at fault. Guy spent a month in a hospital bed and now has trouble walking. Owes 50k+ in medical bills and doesn't want to declare bankruptcy. He was in CS so he will probably survive but I just feel it's completely unnecessary that he suffer the added stress in life of owing finances for medical treatment. Specifically when he had no control over the accident and is in no way to blame. I left America for Canada because morally the country makes me sick.

lordnacho 8y ago

I remember when I heard about my uncle passing away in America. He had the symptoms this lady had. For some reason he didn't go to the doctor, and it really puzzled me. At the time I'd put it down to inherited stubbornness, because my dad had had the same thing happen as well and would only go to the hospital because I forced him to. Now I'm wondering whether my uncle was simply scared of the bill. I found out he'd told colleagues he was feeling numb on one side and had blurry vision, yet still didn't go to the hospital. My uncle died, it was more serious that he thought. My dad survived and still lives. In Denmark you rarely think about the cost, but rather the queue to see a doctor (if you have something minor, you might wait a long time). The doctors knew what was going on immediately, so it wasn't a long wait. Is it common for blue collar workers to be without health insurance in the US? I don't want to ask my cousins about it, too painful and it would probably trigger a big rant about healthcare. Also, if your healthcare is tied to your job, what do you do between jobs? Just be really careful when chopping the onions?

raincom 8y ago
If one is a blue collar worker for a large corp (not a small biz), he/she usually have a health insurance. However, it comes with lots of co payments, out-of-network payments, etc; this can ruin a person financially. Many employees of small businesses don't have insurance or super crappy insurance with lots of copayments. How about Uber drivers? They don't have any health insurance.
bb88 8y ago
> Is it common for blue collar workers to be without health insurance in the US? Yes. More so now than in the 1980's say. Collective bargaining doesn't really work when a company can just move a factory to Mexico. There's cobra which covers the health insurance gap up to 18 months, but you have to pay the company's rate, not the discounted rate. The downside of it is that it can be rather expensive, and so unemployed people will often forego it.

rayiner 8y ago

I think we should have universal healthcare, but I don’t know how I feel about the “medical bankruptcy” angle. It strikes a chord with the middle/upper middle class readers of the Atlantic because those people fear losing their financial status. But to me, protecting the financial status of middle class people seems like a particularly poor justification for universal health care. Why should the government use tax dollars to keep a middle class person from going bankrupt, instead of giving that money to someone who started at $0 and stayed at $0? You’re a middle class professional and you get unlucky and get cancer, the government will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for your treatment. But if you’re unlucky in a different way, say you are born in the ghetto to poor parents, the government won’t give you hundreds of thousands of dollars. That seems completely backward. Say you raise taxes hundreds of billions of dollars. Is protecting middle class people from being wiped out financially if they have a medical catestrophe really the highest and best use of that money? For about $100 billion you could give every child born into poverty an “inheritance” of $100,000. Wouldn’t that be a better use of the money?

raesene9 8y ago
Isn't the best idea to make healthcare affordable/free at point of use for everyone (rich or poor) with the rich contributing more (through taxes) to subsidise the poor. That way no-one gets into medical bankruptcy :)
lumberingjack 8y ago
Doctors charge way too much for their services. When's the last time you saw a doctor who was justifiably worried about money? They're all driving around in very nice vehicles, several houses, the best golf clubs you can buy,three months vacation to places most people only dream of. It's the same age old story your loved ones dying and all they care about is getting your last bit of gold for the treatment.

morningmoon 8y ago

- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1] - Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem. [2] Our culture is toxic and unsustainable. Government can't fix this. It's a generational problem that's been growing with each generation. [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/bankrate-65-percent-of-americans-save-little-or-nothing.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/bankrate-65-percent-of-ameri... [2]: https://blog.bcbsnc.com/2014/06/costly-habits-1-5-trillion-looks-like/ https://blog.bcbsnc.com/2014/06/costly-habits-1-5-trillion-l... [3]:

raesene9 8y ago
isn't taxation, in this case, a type of government enforced savings :) So the gov. could force people to essentially provide for a level of healthcare for everyone. Also on the Obesity point, if the UK was a US state we would rate somewhere in the middle of the pack on obesity levels. Yet the UK pays far less per capita on healthcare and provides a basic level of healthcare free at point of use (rich people are free to increase that if they want)
- morningmoon 8y ago
  The bulk of research shows the US spends more on healthcare due to higher prices, not more care. Increasing taxes will not solve anything without some sort of strategy to control prices. One solution is price controls for common, well understood procedures and medications, like most other countries with single-payer. The UK for example, engages in price controls.
nosianu 8y ago
On the level of the economy there is no "saving" (ignoring small things like leaving resources under ground for later instead of digging them up now). What is produced now is consumed now, especially services. Governments may keep strategic reserves e.g. of oil or some basic foods but that's outside the economy, that's (obviously) not added to by "saving for retirement" and all the other kinds of "saving" that individuals are encouraged to do. Just think about it for a moment, what it actually means when people "save". The future economy certainly doesn't need that money, it's used in the current economy and not buried underground. Not to mention that money, being completely virtual (which is a good thing IMO), never is a problem - unless the government (or the world) messes up big time (like in the 1930s). Businesses don't need anybody's "savings" either, banks create money (through debt) if a lender, especially a business, has a good plan. So again, just take a moment to think about what it means when everybody is encouraged to "save". One aspect is - do those with any power (and I don't mean this politically, simply that different people have different roles and positions) really want everybody to save? Because if everybody does it the economy goes down. One person's expenses are another person's income. However, having this "you don't save!" sure is great to have to throw into conversations to show "it's your own fault". Of course, that's not the intention why "you must save" is kept, I don't think anybody (of those who are relevant) consciously thinks like that. Overall though "saving" helped lower the government's role and funnel lots of money streams through a thriving and ever increasing financial industry. If the government actually wanted people to consume less they could have achieved that decades ago.

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acconrad 8y ago

Regardless of where you stand on this issue politically, I think what upsets me the most is that we have the means to solve this problem. And hunger. The most basic needs for all humans can be solved: we have enough food to feed everyone. We have enough money and doctors to treat everyone without going destitute. We have more than enough. We choose to not to.