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Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics
- kuwze 8y agoI wish they would release on gog too, but I guess that kind of loses the benefits of the steam workshop. Maybe an independent mod manager?
- cma 8y agoBuy through Patreon and they get a much larger portion of your payment.
- shadowfacts 8y agoI think you mean Itch.io: https://kitfoxgames.itch.io/dwarf-fortress https://kitfoxgames.itch.io/dwarf-fortress
- elliottcarlson 8y agohttp://www.bay12games.com/support.html http://www.bay12games.com/support.html is the best place to donate directly and ensures they get the biggest cut.
- wyldfire 8y agoI've never played it but it sounds like a compelling game with an in-depth model. I started out playing games on a monochome amber monitor + Hercules graphics. But I still think that going beyond ASCII characters is a nice touch that will make the game easier on the eyes. > in today’s FAQ, the pair said that they’re selling this premium version in part to pay for health care for ailing family members. That's too bad that it's come to this but perhaps it will bring the game to a wider audience.
- lainga 8y agoThe game really is just the hyper-detailed model. The gameplay is emergent and comes most easily if you know how to spin a good story as you're playing.
- crooked-v 8y agoThe gameplay model is extremely elaborate and compelling, but the UI is wildly inconsistent and vigorously inscrutable, even compared to "every key is a separate command" classics like Nethack.
- mikekchar 8y agoNot to mention the seemingly millions of bugs and oddities that you have to keep in your mind when you play. Lots of stuff just doesn't work, or works weirdly enough that it's better off avoiding it. Becoming a "good" DF player involves a lot of learning how to avoid those landmines. I still love it though! There is nothing like it.
- ceejayoz 8y ago> But, in today’s FAQ, the pair said that they’re selling this premium version in part to pay for health care for ailing family members. "Name one positive thing about the US health insurance setup." "Uh... it got us Dwarf Fortress with graphics, I guess?"
- tptacek 8y agoDF already has graphical tilesets, right? This is just a packaging of them?
- enticeing 8y agoThe graphics are new, as far as I can tell. From a Patreon post on the same topic: > She's contracted Mike Mayday and Meph, who've both > been with the modding community for many years. > Zach and I are working closely with them as they > create a tile set that fits the game and meshes > well with our underlying code.
- theli0nheart 8y agoGraphics have been available for a long time, now, they've just never been bundled with the game itself.
- muzani 8y agoIt's an official packaging, and possibly bundled with a UI/UX upgrade.
- crooked-v 8y ago"No access to the source code" is a seriously weird thing to note. Is this going to be like one of the existing memory-injecting/manipulating mods, with all the downsides that implies?
- ssully 8y agoYeah, that's kind of weird. I think they said that to reinforce that this will be the exact same game. Thats great, but not providing the port team the source just sounds like they are trying both arms behind their back.
- lonjil 8y agoThere is no port team. Tarn is doing all of the programming for the Steam release, and the people Kitfox hired are artists.
- mont 8y agoThat is really interesting, though IIRC the dev of df doesn't use any reasonable sort of cvs, and I got the impression that the source code was essentially enough spaghetti to feed an Italian wedding.
- 0xffff2 8y agoDF has long had support for graphical tile sets, and the announcement on Patreon mentions that the developers will be doing some work specifically to support the new graphics. I think that comment is there to allay any fears that this release and future releases might be burdened with any kind of functional user interface.
- StrangeDoctor 8y agoIt's a roundabout way of assuring the existing community that the integrity of the simulation/game is the same as always. All of these mods are memory injection/watching, but nothing is being done to circumvent the modders.
- Filligree 8y ago
- aresant 8y agoThree points of interest: 1) Full developer announcement on their Patreon page -> https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . " 3) Cool to see that they are going to use graphics built by two of the most popular community modders: -=> MayDay built one of the most popular current graphics packs @ http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php -=> And Meph has built a fairly massive tile set as well @ http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0 Will be interesting to see how they change with native support.
- coldacid 8y agoAlso in the article but buried: 4) Steam/itch.io and Katfox take a cut so if you want to really help out Zach and Tarn you should donate directly @ http://www.bay12games.com/support.html http://www.bay12games.com/support.html
- learc83 8y agoSteam also lets you sell steam keys on your own site, and they don't take a cut of that. There is a bit of an issue with selling your own Steam keys and selling on multiple platforms though. The more people who purchase your game on Steam, the higher Steam's algorithm will rank the game, so there's something to be said for not spreading out sales.
- opencl 8y agoitch is interesting in that game developers can choose the revenue cut, it defaults to itch getting 10% but can be set to anything from 0% to 100%. Steam is 30% as usual. Kitfox is taking 20% in exchange for handling marketing and customer support (after the store cut), leaving Zach and Tarn with 72% or 56% for itch and Steam respectively (assuming they use the itch default cut).
- 8y ago
- coldacid 8y agoOh no. There goes everyone's productivity, killed by catsplosions.
- crocal 8y agoAnd by killer carps. Never turn your back on carps. They want you dead! Explanation: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Carp http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Carp
- bduerst 8y agoThey fixed that though. I think the current most problematic bug is that your dwarves can't kill undead heads if they're decapitated from the body. The dwarves just gather around and endless keep beating it the zombie head.
- crocal 8y agoPresented like this, I’m not sure if it’s a bug or a feature.
- joshstrange 8y agoI've never been able to get into DF but I would suggest people check out RimWorld. I've heard it described as "Dwarf Fortress is Rimworld for people who hate fun" [0] and people often draw parallels between the two [1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_rimworld_compare_to_dwarf_fortress/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_r... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_over_from_dwarf_fortress_i_feel_like_my/dmfb8rm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_ove...
- rjbwork 8y agoI love RimWorld, and have hundreds of hours in it, but I'd say it's really more like Babby's First DF game than truly comparable to DF. It just doesn't have the depth, or capability to present a deep challenge forever. It also takes place in a single layer, whereas DF has gobs of layers.
- apk-d 8y agoI actually really enjoy the way RimWorld's gameplay is simpler and more focused. Feels more like a game you actually get to play and less like a simulation you feel compelled to tweak every few hundred ticks. Obviously, you're not going to get "infinite hours of gameplay" out of it the way you can with DF, but it can be a fun ride for hundreds of hours.
- MrZongle2 8y agoThe other thing going for Rimworld is Steam Workshop integration and a very robust modding community. You want Warhammer 40K in Rimworld? Got it. You want Lovecraftian horrors in Rimworld? Got it. You want different types of cats, or barbed wire, or typewriters? Got it.
- jredwards 8y agoRimWorld has a giant and engaged modding community. I know many people with multiple thousands of hours in the game. There's also a very active subreddit at r/RimWorld
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bradford 8y agoI've played DF a lot. Biggest problem that I had is that it eventually becomes a challenge to manage the framerate. I realize there are ways to fix this that are intertwined with the gameplay, but I'd rather play the game instead of butchering kittens and other things in an effort to keep the game performant. Second issue is with military organization. I never really became confident in my ability to get the squads doing what I wanted them to do (wearing the proper uniforms, training with a crossbow). Despite this, I've had a lot of fun with the game. Building, farming, and managing a metal industry is a lot of fun. The barrier to entry is still pretty high, and I don't think the announced additions are going to change that. (haven't played in the last year or two, so my criticism may be outdated)
- Derpdiherp 8y agoNo the criticisms are still valid. There's still severe frame rate issues under quite a few circumstances. The military thing is more subjective though, it's still a complicated system, but such is the way of DF. As much as I can see why Tarn wants to keep the code closed source, I really wish he'd allow someone to help him with some optimisations.
- stephentmcm 8y agoI'd disagree that the military issues are subjective, as of 0.44.x dwarves still put on a random assortment of what you assign them, normally missing something important like a right gauntlet or a shield.
- Fjolsvith 8y agoI once had a mature fortress laid waste by a black dragon. My dwarves got it killed, but there were only three surviving dwarves (who had been fully plate armored) out of 200, and after the battle they were so stricken with grief they could hardly do anything. I've had invasions of orcs and goblins thrown back by fortresses. What a complex and !FUN! game.
- shrimp_emoji 8y agoMultithread w h e n ??? Also, early embark setup fatigue is real. Setup the stockpiles. Plan the rooms. Have the plans outpace your current productivity and have it take way too long. Do this every time. Once that's over, though, you get to enjoy sorting through droves of migrants, assigning each to the tasks they're most appropriate to or which need the most dwarves right now (the game actually approximates this automatically in that it generates migrants vaguely in reflection to the fortress's needs, but it's not like it assigns all burly, tough, slow-to-tire dwarves to your melee squads or that talented bonecrafter to more useful crafting jobs, so it's up to your manic OCD). Do this every season. Somewhere in there, have some !FUN!.
- vharuck 8y agoDirect donations (maybe Patreon, too?) are rewarded with a narrative blurb & ASCII art or a crayon drawing. I treasure my drawing of a minecart barrelling toward a goblin tied to the tracks.
- danbolt 8y agoKitfox Games is run by Tanya Short, who’s co-authored a book on procedural generation in games.[1] She gave a pretty interesting talk in Vancouver about how it integrates into her studio’s production methodology. A lot of Kitfox’s games employ procgen, so I feel like they’re a good fit for the title. [2] [1] https://www.amazon.ca/Procedural-Generation-Design-Tanya-Short/dp/1498799191 https://www.amazon.ca/Procedural-Generation-Design-Tanya-Sho... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH11Q7VPXj8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH11Q7VPXj8
- jyxent 8y agoCo-authored with Tarn Adams, the co-creator of Dwarf Fortress.
- katamaritaco 8y agoTanya Short and Tarn Adams (of DF) are collaborating again for a new book built around procedural storytelling that is set to release soon. [1] [1] https://www.crcpress.com/Procedural-Storytelling-in-Game-Design/Short-Adams/p/book/9781138595309 https://www.crcpress.com/Procedural-Storytelling-in-Game-Des...
- hiccuphippo 8y agoThe corner grass in the pics looks weird. Are they supposed to be cliffs? I've heard of this game but never tried it. I've only played nethack on a terminal. I'll definitely try it!
- VectorLock 8y agoIts great they're bringing DF to a larger audience and adding graphical tile sets will sure help but I found the most inscrutable thing about this game wasn't how it presented the graphics but the menu system. I'm curious if the Steam release will do anything to make that less impenetrable.
- umvi 8y agoOne thing that amazes me about Dwarf Fortress is that the creator(s) don't use version control[1] (as of 2014, things may have changed): "I don't use version control -- I didn't like the feeling of having the code get committed into a black box thingy with no immediate upside." I can't fathom how you can manage the complexity of a game like DF without a VCS. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_of_bay_12_games_cocreator_of_dwarf/c919fo8 https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_...
- Pfhreak 8y agoThey almost certainly use some sort of version control, like all novice programmers do, right? -- copying files/directories, creating backups, etc. (MyProject02.old.bak.zip).
- felipemnoa 8y agoI'd be surprised if that is not the case. No way they could have gotten this far without at least this minimum level of version control.
- Buttons840 8y agoAh yes: myproject.final.zip myproject.production.zip myproject.backup.zip myproject.backup2.zip myproject.shipped.zip
- CydeWeys 8y agomyproject.final2.zip myproject.final3.zip myproject.final_for_real.zip Been there done that. I prefer git where it's all just meaningless hashes, or semver tags.
- jandrese 8y agoIt makes a little sense. They aren't working with any kind of time limit, so if they break something they just work at it until it is fixed. There's no rolling back to the last good version. But yeah, this is undoubtedly a factor in the games rather glacial development rate.
- soneca 8y agoI always read about Dwarf Fortress in HN and it always interested me. But some elements, like the ASCII art, always seemed to me as entry barriers purposefully built to maintain a protected subculture that I had no interest in being part of. I just wanted to try out a good game. So this comes as good news to me, I'll probably give it a try now with the tile graphics.
- jandrese 8y agoIMHO, the graphics aren't nearly as much of a barrier as the interface. If you just install DF and open it up you will be overwhelmed and there's no help system holding your hand. The word "inscrutable" gets tossed around a lot with Dwarf Fortress, because it is the prefect encapsulation of the first time player's experience.
- tptacek 8y agoThe interface is part of the charm; you get dopamine hits not just for knowing what to do, but also figuring out (after trial and fun^H^H^Herror) how to do the things you're trying to do.
- jandrese 8y agoOr you know, even what you are supposed to be doing. The game asks you a whole bunch of questions about how to create the universe that you have no idea about, then it plops you down with a bunch of dwarves in some kind of environment, and you know you're supposed to dig a home and I guess you need to task the Dwarves to do that (they're just wandering around aimlessly), but when you try to give the Dwarves a task they just wander around aimlessly still for no apparent reason.
- vkou 8y agoI strongly agree. Even if Dwarf Fortress had the graphics of Rimworld (Which are aesthetically pleasing and visually distinct), its user-interface (The military system, the equipment system, any construction-related interaction with Z-levels, the fifty million jobs that dwarves can have) is insane.
- Pfhreak 8y agoI've often wondered if DF will ever get an open source version that tries to recreate the same experience but focuses on consistent interface design, performance and multithreading, and ease of extensibility. DF has a huge head start, and two of the most incredibly passionate developers out there, but it's also clear they prioritize expanding the model first and foremost rather than trying to tackle any of the user experience issues that have plagued the game forever. (To be clear, I adore DF. I've put many, many hours into DF. It's a truly amazing game and I continue to wish the developers success.)
- Gene_Parmesan 8y agoRimworld is kind of this. It's obviously a different, far more accessible experience. But I can't help but feel like it took much of its inspiration from this very idea of making a DF with much better UX.
- mlindner 8y agoIt's good but it doesn't have the same kind of emergent feel that DF has. It feels a lot less alive compared to DF.
- snazz 8y agoDungeon Crawl Stone Soup is to Nethack as __________ is to Dwarf Fortress. My understanding is that Gnomoria isn’t there yet, but I haven’t played it, so I could be wrong. It certainly would be an interesting technical challenge to write a competitor in a modular, maintainable way that allows tile-based frontends without injecting memory.
- LyndsySimon 8y agoI feel like every time someone sets out to create a F/OSS successor to DF, they end up mired in creating dungeon and world generators and never produce a functional game. Really, that's what DF is anyhow; they even call it a "story generator" IIRC. Tarn just managed to put enough of a playable game together before getting lost in the details of world generation, and people have stayed engaged enough with it to keep him involved in the project.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- grawprog 8y agoI wonder if the steam/itch.io versions will support linux? It only has windows on the steam page so far and nothing about platforms on the article or FAQ. I would enjoy a version integrated with the steam workshop with automatic updates and to help them out some more.
- bdz 8y agoThe problem with DF was never the graphics but the UI itself. See Rimworld which is hugely popular but much more "playable". Basically the UI is holding back the game to become a much bigger success
- mlindner 8y agoRimworld is also a MUCH simpler game. It's simpler to the point when I played it Rimworld felt "dead" as compared to how "alive" the DF simulation felt.
- vkou 8y agoRimworld is a much simpler game, but it would not be improved if, instead of the incredibly straight, user-friendly forward military system that it has, it had the insane morass of uniforms, schedules, equipment menus, burrows, that Dwarf Fortress does. It's an incredibly roundabout system that has too much complexity in the UI, for too little complexity in gameplay. You could add features to Rimworld, to reach feature parity with Dwarf Fortress, and it's easy-to-use UI would still hold up.
- mlindner 8y agoI hope they can included TWBT as the multi-level view is kind of needed for any proper graphics visualization.
- marcotaves 8y agoDont know why this remembers me a Story from HackerNews... I call this story by the xiaoming of "The Black Dice on White Table" In October of 1994, I’d just started as an honest-to-goodness videogame programmer at a small startup called SingleTrac which later went on to fame and glory (but unfortunately not much in the way of fortune) with such titles as Warhawk, the Twisted Metal series, and the Jet Moto series. But at the time, the company was less than 20 employees in size and had only been officially in business for about a month. It was sometime in my first week possibly my first or second day. In the main engineering room, there was a whoop and cry of success. Our company financial controller and acting HR lady, Jen, came in to see what incredible things the engineers and artists had come up with. Everyone was staring at a television set hooked up to a development box for the Sony Playstation. There, on the screen, against a single-color background, was a black triangle. “It’s a black triangle,” she said in an amused but sarcastic voice. One of the engine programmers tried to explain, but she shook her head and went back to her office. I could almost hear her thoughts… “We’ve got ten months to deliver two games to Sony, and they are cheering over a black triangle? THAT took them nearly a month to develop?”
- marcotaves 8y agoso what the fuck is going on... you think I am the guy who was there in 1994 and made the bçack triangle video game? you know I am not! you think I have an flock of flying robots made with A.I.? you know I dont, I didnt even could finish the most basic phtotransistor prototipe or even any experiments you know that! dont know what the is it? hell is it going to be??? going on with some people that is not me... honestly! thanks...
- marcotaves 8y agodelete the parent comment
- tlynchpin 8y agoInteresting choice of Steam and itch. I'd be very interested to hear more about their selection process on platform once they decided to Get The Money. Specifically I wonder if they explored the new Epic platform, guess I'll have to tune into the AMA tomorrow.
- ilaksh 8y agoIts not that interesting to me to pick Steam and Itch since they have many more users than anything else including something that barely launched.
- NeoBasilisk 8y agoMaybe I'll finally try playing it. It always seemed fascinating.
- Impossible 8y agoFrom the article: Kitfox said that it has “no access to the source code, and will have no influence on the design, programming, or updates to Dwarf Fortress.” Interesting approach, they're basically making a commercial client for the DF "server". From what I know of Dwarf Fortress mods, even though tile sets and data definitions are data driven, a lot of the functionality is hard-coded, so many mods\viewers work by reverse engineering and reading or modifying memory at run-time. Indeed looking at the Dwarf Therapist code this seems to be the case still (https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-Therapist/blob/master/share/memory_layouts/ https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-Therapist/blob/mast...). With a commercial release with Steam Workshop support and no source access for the primary developers does that mean DF will get a proper mod system? Steam is likely to bring in a lot of new users that don't necessarily have the patience to deal with "truths" the existing community has been dealing with for 14 years...
- uglygoblin 8y agoAnother Roguelike game called ADOM that has been around since the 90's was brought to Steam with upgraded assets and sounds a couple years back.
- muzani 8y agoAnd it highlighted how aged the game was. It's a roguelike masterpiece, but there has been many more playable ones since. DF hasn't aged as badly, but standing up in Steam to more playable games will be challenging.
- ajuc 8y agoHow is it possible that reasonable people are OK with this kind of bullshit healthcare policy?
- YukonMoose 8y agoI was consumed by df for about six months to the detriment of everything else. I’ve never been able to go back, but I always remember it as the best gaming I ever did. Df is a piece of art comparable to anything created by mankind to date. In a 1000 years I believe df will be compared with Mozart and the Mona Lisa. And hopefully they’ve improved the efficiency... I want my descendants to be able to build that 1000 dwarf fortress!
- nyolfen 8y ago>Df is a piece of art comparable to anything created by mankind to date. In a 1000 years I believe df will be compared with Mozart and the Mona Lisa. you're not the only one who thinks so: https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920 https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920
- intended 8y ago> 1000 dwarf fortress! What did the sons of today’s processors ever do to you, for you to hate them so?
- minikites 8y agohttps://twitter.com/moonpolysoft/status/1105872843475030016 https://twitter.com/moonpolysoft/status/1105872843475030016 >In a just universe the dwarf fortress dudes would've gotten notch's money (https://www.gamebyte.com/creator-minecraft-admits-ripped-off-another-game-creating-minecraft/ https://www.gamebyte.com/creator-minecraft-admits-ripped-off...)
- Grue3 8y agoThis is true, but Tarn Adams was in fact offered a big commercial deal before and rejected it. He really values the independence of his vision.
- voltagex_ 8y agoEven if you don't plan on buying it on Steam, wishlisting it there will help the devs.
- mesozoic 8y agoGreat news! I'd bet they make tons of sales from this on reputation and additional visibility alone and given their methods that should fund development for the rest of their lives at least.
- tempodox 8y agoDwarf Fortress seems to be way beyond me. It takes ages reacting to any keyboard input I make and once I get to the actual game screen, I can't even find my character. Maybe the Steam edition will finally be usable for me.