9 ms·

This is huge news. Sway is absolutely incredible, it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame in its simplicity, stabili

This is huge news. Sway is absolutely incredible, it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame in its simplicity, stability, and efficiency. If you want the best of the best DE, look no further. If you're on the fence about trying a tiling windows manager, I say, give it a shot for a single week and you'll never look back. Invest a few hours in a sway config file that will serve you for years. Also, migrating from i3 is super easy and painless. Really a seamless upgrade experience. If you've been holding off upgrading to Wayland, now is the time, Sway is absolutely ready. By the way, you should donate. These people absolutely deserve your money.

ubercow13 8y ago
Why should you (upgrade from i3/X)? What's the benefit?
- ilovecaching 8y ago
  Because you can support Wayland and make Sway better. X11 is a super crusty, hacky mess that is being phased out. Sway also incorporates some nice features (gaps) that were previously not in the base version.
  - rudilee 8y ago
    I really don't get it why people like gaps so much, yes it's look pretty, but in my opinion it is as much waste of space as window drop shadow. I would like to have as much screen real estate as possible to be used to show information, that's the whole point to use tiling wm in the first place for me.
    - chmln 8y ago
      A 5px gap between windows is a drop in the bucket, but adds a lot in terms of aesthetics.
- mises 8y ago
  Based on Wayland, meaning it's more modern. Here's what I've heard for benefits: * Better multi-window and gesture support * Gaps built in (currently, i3 is separate from i3-gaps, which is what most actually use). No separate forks to deal with, meaning easier maintenance. * Wallpaper * Faster However, there are some big downsides. Wayland is still pretty beta, and not everything works well with it. This is not the fault of Wayland/sway per se, more the fact that everything is based around X11. Biggest thing for me is no copy/paste. Hidpi scaling is supposed to be a nightmare. Also, sway doesn't support Nvidia, and the author has publicly stated he refuses to support any Nvidia drivers (or at least until they're open-source).
  - pzone 8y ago
    I think you have it backwards with regard to HiDPI. DPI scaling in X is a nightmare. Sway claims to have the best HiDPI support of any desktop environment due to modern Wayland support. Getting X applications to scale with Wayland HiDPI will require workarounds because of the lack of DPI support in X.
    - ubercow13 8y ago
      In what sense does Wayland have better hidpi support than X?
      - aeroevan 8y ago
        Mixed DPI works for one. I'm using GNOME on wayland currently but that's really the only thing I've noticed that's better than X.
    - badsectoracula 8y ago
      > lack of DPI support in X Even back in 2002 RandR supported obtaining screen size information in pixels and millimeters which can be used to calculate DPI... or actually, what people really want when mentioning "DPI support", an automatic way to scale the windows. How the window scales is up to the toolkit to implement and is independent of window system and really, even independent of screen size/DPI since some users (e.g. due to sight problems) may want their windows to be scaled even on "low DPI" monitors (the whole DPI thing is just a default setting). The main problem i see with X here isn't some technical inability, but a way for window managers to notify other clients that they should change their scaling (since the window manager is in a better position to know what scaling each window should use - especially when you want different scaling per monitor, which again can be independent of DPI since you may want a large scale for a wall mounted TV even if the DPI would be very low) - essentially something like a new _NET_WM_SCALE window property for EWMH clients and window managers.
chrisseaton 8y ago
> it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame I don't really think they're designed for the same purpose or audience, so I don't think it shames the Apple engineers.
- ilovecaching 8y ago
  You're missing the point. Sway is a team of people working on their own time out in the open to create something they really care about for almost no money. The final product is staggeringly good compared to a commercial OS like macOS, and yes, tiling WM requires more up front investment and isn't a normal pattern for most folks, but that shouldn't make people feel like Sway or tiling is beyond them.
  - Jtsummers 8y ago
    But they aren't making an OS. They're making a window manager. Why are you comparing a WM to an OS?
    - ilovecaching 8y ago
      Because I’m not being pedantic, and because it’s impossible to look at Sway outside the context of Linux.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Why do you want anyone to feel shame about there being another product that does things differently, though? They weren't trying to achieve what Sway did, and what they did achieve is great for what most of their users want. No need to try to put them down.
- the_gipsy 8y ago
  Well macOS has tried and failed, with their mix of "spaces", fullscreen apps, and maximized windows. Edit: what I'm saying is they did try to do the fullscreen (and even tiled) modes.
kstenerud 8y ago
I really don't get the benefit of a tiling window manager. I tried one and instantly felt boxed in. There's not enough room on the screen for everything I need to have opened and flip between, which is why I use an overlapping window manager in the first place.
- NullPrefix 8y ago
  You know that there's multiple virtual desktops, right?
  - kstenerud 8y ago
    ... which doesn't solve the underlying problem. I don't want to switch to a different desktop, such that my text editor window disappears and my terminal appears. I want them both on the same screen, along with my browser which points to a SO answer, in big sizes. In a normal window manager, this is accomplished by making them all big and then either overlapping them in ways that makes it easy to click on them, or just alt-tab. In a tiling window manager, this doesn't seem possible as far as I've been able to tell.
    - mattbreeden 8y ago
      I can't tell if you were aware by your comments, but in a tiling window manager you don't have to have everything visible all the time. They all have modes that hide windows behind others and allow you to swap between them the same as alt-tab. Many of them also have the option to 'float' the windows as a normal non tiling window manager would.
      - kstenerud 8y ago
        But then I fail to see what benefit it's giving me to be a tiling window manager?
        lfms_dotfile 8y ago
        That's simply an option, because the devs recognize that not everything adheres well to a tiling workflow. It's not intended to be the primary mode of operation. I personally almost never use floating mode.
sleepinseattle 8y ago
> Sway is absolutely incredible, it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame in its simplicity, stability, and efficiency. They have different design goals. A tiling window manager is not a good default for everyone or every device type or screen size.
- willtim 8y ago
  I could equally state that overlapping windows are not a good default for everyone or every device type. It's also worth pointing out that Apples newest UI, iOS, uses a tiling window manager.
  - oblio 8y ago
    Tiling window managers were tried early on, when PCs were introduced. They failed because normal people didn't like them. Also, mobile OSes won't really ever have more than 2-3 windows shown at the same time, since the screens are so small. That will probably change once we have folding devices or AR/VR. But super limited "tiling" window managers do make sense with such limited UIs.
    - willtim 8y ago
      > They failed because normal people didn't like them. Do you have proof of this? I suspect they failed because everyone decided to copy the Mac which was trying to emulate a real desktop with bits of paper on it. > Super limited "tiling" window managers do make sense with such limited UIs. They also often make sense for complicated UIs, e.g. IDEs such as Visual Studio and browsers such as Firefox, which have docked sidebars and tabs in preference to overlapping windows.
      - oblio 8y ago
        Tabs are a completely different metaphor to tiles.
        8y ago
mediocrejoker 8y ago
I tried to switch from i3 a few months ago and spent several hours trying to get it to work with my Nvidia card before finding out that the project doesn't support Nvidia for ideological reasons. I'm not well versed in the details of the conflict, and of course any open source project is not compelled to support anything they don't want to. That being said it would have been nice to know that they have no plans to support a large percentage (majority?) of the consumer, dedicated GPU market. If/when I am able to get a new AMD card I will certainly try it then.
- ddevault 8y ago
  It merits re-empathising that it's Nvidia that does not support sway - not the other way around.
  - 7e 8y ago
    The makers of the world's best and most popular graphics cards will never compromise their goals to accommodate an i3 clone. I think it's fair that the smaller entity support the larger one.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      Our policy bubbles down to wlroots, which is the basis of a huge variety of Wayland compositors. However, we only need to support Nvidia if our goals include "adoption by Nvidia users". But they don't, so we aren't going to.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      This isn't an i3 vs. nvidia situation, this is linux kms/drm progress vs. nvidia. nvidia is simply being uncooperative.
    - meditate 8y ago
rraghur 8y ago
How is this on Nvidia? I'm on KDE neon and so no Wayland due to Nvidia's lack of APIs

ubercow13 8y ago

Why should you (upgrade from i3/X)? What's the benefit?

ilovecaching 8y ago
Because you can support Wayland and make Sway better. X11 is a super crusty, hacky mess that is being phased out. Sway also incorporates some nice features (gaps) that were previously not in the base version.
- rudilee 8y ago
  I really don't get it why people like gaps so much, yes it's look pretty, but in my opinion it is as much waste of space as window drop shadow. I would like to have as much screen real estate as possible to be used to show information, that's the whole point to use tiling wm in the first place for me.
  - chmln 8y ago
    A 5px gap between windows is a drop in the bucket, but adds a lot in terms of aesthetics.
mises 8y ago
Based on Wayland, meaning it's more modern. Here's what I've heard for benefits: * Better multi-window and gesture support * Gaps built in (currently, i3 is separate from i3-gaps, which is what most actually use). No separate forks to deal with, meaning easier maintenance. * Wallpaper * Faster However, there are some big downsides. Wayland is still pretty beta, and not everything works well with it. This is not the fault of Wayland/sway per se, more the fact that everything is based around X11. Biggest thing for me is no copy/paste. Hidpi scaling is supposed to be a nightmare. Also, sway doesn't support Nvidia, and the author has publicly stated he refuses to support any Nvidia drivers (or at least until they're open-source).
- pzone 8y ago
  I think you have it backwards with regard to HiDPI. DPI scaling in X is a nightmare. Sway claims to have the best HiDPI support of any desktop environment due to modern Wayland support. Getting X applications to scale with Wayland HiDPI will require workarounds because of the lack of DPI support in X.
  - ubercow13 8y ago
    In what sense does Wayland have better hidpi support than X?
    - aeroevan 8y ago
      Mixed DPI works for one. I'm using GNOME on wayland currently but that's really the only thing I've noticed that's better than X.
  - badsectoracula 8y ago
    > lack of DPI support in X Even back in 2002 RandR supported obtaining screen size information in pixels and millimeters which can be used to calculate DPI... or actually, what people really want when mentioning "DPI support", an automatic way to scale the windows. How the window scales is up to the toolkit to implement and is independent of window system and really, even independent of screen size/DPI since some users (e.g. due to sight problems) may want their windows to be scaled even on "low DPI" monitors (the whole DPI thing is just a default setting). The main problem i see with X here isn't some technical inability, but a way for window managers to notify other clients that they should change their scaling (since the window manager is in a better position to know what scaling each window should use - especially when you want different scaling per monitor, which again can be independent of DPI since you may want a large scale for a wall mounted TV even if the DPI would be very low) - essentially something like a new _NET_WM_SCALE window property for EWMH clients and window managers.

chrisseaton 8y ago

> it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame I don't really think they're designed for the same purpose or audience, so I don't think it shames the Apple engineers.

ilovecaching 8y ago
You're missing the point. Sway is a team of people working on their own time out in the open to create something they really care about for almost no money. The final product is staggeringly good compared to a commercial OS like macOS, and yes, tiling WM requires more up front investment and isn't a normal pattern for most folks, but that shouldn't make people feel like Sway or tiling is beyond them.
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  But they aren't making an OS. They're making a window manager. Why are you comparing a WM to an OS?
  - ilovecaching 8y ago
    Because I’m not being pedantic, and because it’s impossible to look at Sway outside the context of Linux.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Why do you want anyone to feel shame about there being another product that does things differently, though? They weren't trying to achieve what Sway did, and what they did achieve is great for what most of their users want. No need to try to put them down.
the_gipsy 8y ago
Well macOS has tried and failed, with their mix of "spaces", fullscreen apps, and maximized windows. Edit: what I'm saying is they did try to do the fullscreen (and even tiled) modes.

kstenerud 8y ago

I really don't get the benefit of a tiling window manager. I tried one and instantly felt boxed in. There's not enough room on the screen for everything I need to have opened and flip between, which is why I use an overlapping window manager in the first place.

NullPrefix 8y ago
You know that there's multiple virtual desktops, right?
- kstenerud 8y ago
  ... which doesn't solve the underlying problem. I don't want to switch to a different desktop, such that my text editor window disappears and my terminal appears. I want them both on the same screen, along with my browser which points to a SO answer, in big sizes. In a normal window manager, this is accomplished by making them all big and then either overlapping them in ways that makes it easy to click on them, or just alt-tab. In a tiling window manager, this doesn't seem possible as far as I've been able to tell.
  - mattbreeden 8y ago
    I can't tell if you were aware by your comments, but in a tiling window manager you don't have to have everything visible all the time. They all have modes that hide windows behind others and allow you to swap between them the same as alt-tab. Many of them also have the option to 'float' the windows as a normal non tiling window manager would.
    - kstenerud 8y ago
      But then I fail to see what benefit it's giving me to be a tiling window manager?
      - lfms_dotfile 8y ago
        That's simply an option, because the devs recognize that not everything adheres well to a tiling workflow. It's not intended to be the primary mode of operation. I personally almost never use floating mode.

sleepinseattle 8y ago

> Sway is absolutely incredible, it puts macOS, built by Apple's army of engineers and dump trucks of money to shame in its simplicity, stability, and efficiency. They have different design goals. A tiling window manager is not a good default for everyone or every device type or screen size.

willtim 8y ago
I could equally state that overlapping windows are not a good default for everyone or every device type. It's also worth pointing out that Apples newest UI, iOS, uses a tiling window manager.
- oblio 8y ago
  Tiling window managers were tried early on, when PCs were introduced. They failed because normal people didn't like them. Also, mobile OSes won't really ever have more than 2-3 windows shown at the same time, since the screens are so small. That will probably change once we have folding devices or AR/VR. But super limited "tiling" window managers do make sense with such limited UIs.
  - willtim 8y ago
    > They failed because normal people didn't like them. Do you have proof of this? I suspect they failed because everyone decided to copy the Mac which was trying to emulate a real desktop with bits of paper on it. > Super limited "tiling" window managers do make sense with such limited UIs. They also often make sense for complicated UIs, e.g. IDEs such as Visual Studio and browsers such as Firefox, which have docked sidebars and tabs in preference to overlapping windows.
    - oblio 8y ago
      Tabs are a completely different metaphor to tiles.
      - 8y ago

mediocrejoker 8y ago

I tried to switch from i3 a few months ago and spent several hours trying to get it to work with my Nvidia card before finding out that the project doesn't support Nvidia for ideological reasons. I'm not well versed in the details of the conflict, and of course any open source project is not compelled to support anything they don't want to. That being said it would have been nice to know that they have no plans to support a large percentage (majority?) of the consumer, dedicated GPU market. If/when I am able to get a new AMD card I will certainly try it then.

ddevault 8y ago
It merits re-empathising that it's Nvidia that does not support sway - not the other way around.
- 7e 8y ago
  The makers of the world's best and most popular graphics cards will never compromise their goals to accommodate an i3 clone. I think it's fair that the smaller entity support the larger one.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    Our policy bubbles down to wlroots, which is the basis of a huge variety of Wayland compositors. However, we only need to support Nvidia if our goals include "adoption by Nvidia users". But they don't, so we aren't going to.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    This isn't an i3 vs. nvidia situation, this is linux kms/drm progress vs. nvidia. nvidia is simply being uncooperative.
  - meditate 8y ago

rraghur 8y ago

How is this on Nvidia? I'm on KDE neon and so no Wayland due to Nvidia's lack of APIs